turbo200

my statement should have conveyed the idea that people in any given area could presume the entire country to reflect thier area's patterns because environment affects our thinking heavily......which is an idea some of us have discussed here at length. of course there are people everywhere who are more aware or familiar with the situation. but a couple things about our society in this country enforce individualistic thought, which can lead to people having an idea they think to be right that nobody has ever corrected them on. i've lived in the midwest my whole life and just recently began a new life in Los Angeles. there are plenty that don't care enough to find out the truth so they go on with a false idea.

one of the best designs on the road, period. one of the best looking cars in that price range. i would love to own one. be torn between M3 sedan, AMG C of course.

current astra is a fantastic car, with solid pricing. the only problem with pricing is consumer expectation. this is where I see GM doing a wait and see approach with the entire Saturn brand. Having NG Aura and NG Astra pushed back in the States, if that is still the case, means nothing but GM wants additional time to see how the market reacts to the new Saturn, and additional time to perform research. OR another plausible scenario I guess is they don't want to hurry up and reintroduce models and have to spend tons of marketing money so soon after launching the 'all-new Saturn'. what gets me pondering is this notion that Astra is a great car that should be doing much better. I do beleive the design isn't so fresh anymore, two major elements of the car's stance on both coupe 3 and 5 door models are exactly the same as Cobalt, the rooflines, so that is hurting, definitely. even if people aren't observant enough to recall where they saw that styling cue, they know it's something not new and not different. cobalt coupe and sedan are ubiquitous enough to now have become ingrained in people's minds. yes, price is hurting the transaction somewhat [most of all to previous Saturn buyers]. and yes marketing is most of all at fault. but Saturn is and was 'small cars'. it has a built in audience, the S-series and Ion after it were at least mildly successful to widely accepted [s-series at one point had over 200k annual sales]. it doesn't make sense because Saturn should be a natural stop off point for some small car buyers. I get that Ion really killed that reputation being such a repellent of a small auto, but still that rep should have lived on. Additionally, Astra is a great car. superficial items like the armrest, funky controls, all go away once you ride and drive the car, and the 3 door is just great to look at, but the 5-door [mass market model] is much less so, especially in base form. maybe it's that the small car market has gotten so heated, and astra is launching at the wrong time. astra should get benefit of all the small car=frugal image buyers though.... clearly a lot of ways to look at this car to determine if it's a winner or loser. i love opel's new theme by the way, sure would be nice if we could get those cars here sooner than later.

goes to show how much environment can affect our perspective. people living in the Midwest and hardly traveling outside the Midwest think the world revolves around GM and national sales for GM are thriving [if there area is any indicator]. though this is a point that has been repeated consistently on these pages......

agree with your point on how regional data substitutes actual data, however, by-region sales for Saturn would be very itneresting to look at. i've been in chicago, away from my coastal paradise home [tear], for a month now. i've noticed, interestingly enough, a dearth of saturn sales compared to what I was seeing back home. in fact there is some acceptance of outlooks, aura, and of course vue back home. granted, los angeles is one of the biggest, if not the biggest car market, with more new cars purchased every month, so you're gonna see a lot of different cars there. it's not significant that los angeles sees some saturn movement, what is interesting is that this point in the Midwest is very very poor for a GM brand. traditionally, chevy is huge here. which means tradition still rules the roast with these people and since they're not saturn buyers, they never will be. another huge reason to invest in Pontiac. Chicago is Pontiac's biggest market, traditionally speaking. these are buyers with loyalty, consistency. [read: boring, don't dare to change] [did I say that?]

just like Saab with its paltry >200,000 global sales volume and 'never turned a profit' status. last i checked hummer required little to no investment, was built on an existing chassis, and definitely turned a profit, whilst being a media darling for a moment in time. on the list of GM's pointless expenditures and idiotic capital investments, HUMMER doesn't rank as the worst.

saw one on the road the other day. reminded me of a rebuke I've wanted to post at balthazar, how right I was on how much BMW/Bangles has influenced current design in so many ways, at so many car companies, and yet he posted a little rolling on the floor icon without much of any explanation. I could sit here and post at least ten pictures and give concise reasoning and examples why I was so right, and that laughter that was so condescending and inappropriate, and ironically as time goes on, being proven wrong again and again. I just don't have the time, and am content enough knowing I see the truth. the car has an athletic stance borrowed from the 5-series, and a rear end that is Bangle influenced, again 5-series.

hummer serves as yet another broken priority in need of investment at a time when GM's product line is mostly outdated and poor in relation to heated competition, at least in America. GM has bigger priorities at the moment, and the business case for what i outlined would be better served by an independent outfit that could find the hardware, maybe with an updated Land Rover architecture based on an alluminum chassis.

while this move generally should not be considered a loss for the company as a whole, since they have similar product in similar genres reaching similar customers from other upscale brands, Hummer has a unique image thanks to styling tricks and imposing image as well as mass acceptance. hummer was unique within the company and did have a luxury image that could have aspired to match a Land Rover. The biggest fault was in poor execution. quality perception did not endure, if it was already poor compared to competitors when it was released, imagine after years when competitors are changed or newer models introd, and the quality perception gap has continued to widen. this was hummer's biggest downfall. but they were definitely a chic toy/tool. a more focused H2 that is lighter in structure, offering more concrete powertrain options, and more flexible interior space whilst maintaining all the rugged image, could still find a limited audience going down the line.

finally a small car that is conceptually interesting to look at and mechanically conceptually interesting....from GM!

the interior is a showpiece and a great testament to GM's new design focus. the exterior also showcases this through phenomonal lighting tricks that are unique and go the step above, great surfacing, great lines, great attention to detail. it's not forward thinking enough in concept, in staying true to the concept, and grafting a more aerodynamic shape, it went too far in the direction of Honda and Toyota's current looks on their upscale models. But will people care enough to notice, and will this effect remain once the car is viewed in person in the context of its own unique proportions. it's a job well done, and looks the part of a $30,000 electric propolusion car. GM better figure out how to market this thing, how to make a lot of them, and how to price it around there. they would be stupid not to [i am expecting pure stupidity and bungling on thier part]

leave that up to the product planners and financiers to see what kind of formula they come up with. Escalade has never been king of the road handling course. nor king of off road course. nor king of percieved luxury [on the inside--that designation goes to regal and English technical Range Rovers]. Escalade has been king of brash intimidating message and luxury. Let's hope a classic stance is retained, percieved luxury improves significantly [current gen was already a massive step ahead], some sport is injected via stance and design accoutrements inside and out, and whoa what a miracle it would be for them to actually invest in platform advancements that would filter down to actually make this Cadillac Lambda a legitimate sports luxury SUV like an X5 or GL wagon competitor. the last one is the most we can hope for, but certainly the first ones we can look out for, and if acheived, Cadillac may succeed, FWD or not. that poser cute ute of chick mobile SRX with its exeedingly large overhangs and overly conservative stance on the other hand is a loser in my book and a stain to the Cadillac name.

can you tell us why Saturn is a better match? [i'm not asking for the inside info, just logically with evidence we can all understand] on a separate note, insignia is one of the better looking GM cars we've seen in a while, but it seems Opel's design theme is getting more Japanese, particularly Mazda-influenced, by the minute. alas, it looks great, but I doubt we'd get something as revolutionary for Astra as the sketches portray, perhaps something more conventional is in line.

question for griffon: is this the upsized Groove for our shores, you mentioned a little while back? you mentioned that would be Gamma... this looks like a great fit for a ~$20k and up market. It will never translate this well to production, I would assume.

sorry for the accusation, or how it came across. however in your follow-up i think you are being far too optomistic. marketing affects a vehicle's perception most upon its newest introduction or changes. design is a number one motivator for buying. hence, since design has not changed on either of existing Buick models, then no there hasn't been a severe change in the demographics of those buyers. additionally, as you stated, SUPERs are but a blip on the radar screen. admittedly, with buick's low volume they may have a minor affect, but whatever the ratio of yong buyers is of the 5,000 or so Supers produced, those are a paltry volume and relatively inconsequential compared to the ~48,000 [off the top of my head] Enclaves sold in the last year.

he may not have the info to back up his statement [or maybe he does, i remember many articles quoting it]....but there's only been one Buick to change in the last year, and Buick's age group has only just begun to get younger. one can only assume no seismic shift like a tidal wave occured destroying all Toyotas bound to our shore dramatically increasing the number of younger buyers heading to thier local Buick dealers, so the other two cars already well into their lifecycle logically would not have a shift in buying patters except for decreases. right? that's only logic...

old is 70+. 60-70 are now boomers. they're in lexuses, good luck syphoning most of those buyers off

Old people die everyday. Buick's base has dwindled. Lacrosse will supplant many of those Lucerne buyers, who look more for price, stateliness, and luxury features. Buick needs to redefine its large car formula, as it competes too much with lower end cars, like the TL, that are much better at doing what they do.

so the question is can sufficient updates, requisite modernizing of powertrains and styling, overcome suspension defecits inherent with an outdated architecture. the only large FWD car sold with moderate success, for its category, aside from GM cars, are the Audi A6 and Toyota Avalon. Maxima is still midsized, 500 is value priced and still fails [though the future update will change this]....what other large FWD cars are out there? The problem from my perspective truly is G-body is outdated to truly handle the demands of newer car buyers based on competing entries within the segment. We're talking the newly minted Maxima, the classy and good driving MKS [perhaps a classic interpretation of what a Buick can be, and hopefully the next Lacrosse/Invicta will be], and the Accord [large car interior, not so large car footprint]. Whether it's dynamics, space utilization, or just plain tired proportions....G-body seems lackluster. I would honestly just do a larger Epsilon Buick.......the problem is that wouldn't work at all at Caddy, and I would be ashamed to do it. But DTS is already FWD. and it's badly hurting Caddy's image. Plans for a RWD Caddy should not have been dismissed, however poorly timed that entry may be. With great pricing, killer styling, great powertrains and features, that car could be a massive success, on the luxury scale. and help justify Zeta's Oshawa investments. DTS needs to go. Buick big car can stay FWD, but make it Epsilon to modernize drive feel, along with style [though who knows what the new gen Epsilon brings in that direction, Insignia is a killer design, Invicta is already looking lame.]

on other future products...trying to remain optomisic, if I was in charge of keeping the company afloat my goal would be utmost desirability and differentiation amongst products, as well as quality goals, and driveability standards. an Impala based on Epsilon should look more like a spiritual successor to the Impala SS from the 90's, well in shape only, the features and surface treatment should be modern. I'd like to see a box shape, with a slant cut roof, something that could form into a rear hatch, something that could look more like the Saab 9-5 concept drawings we were seeing a while back with a stretch roof and rear end that was punctuated with a hatch. something broad, muscular, large, and imposing. If I have to have an Impala that is a FWD Epsilon, then that's the design I'd make. In addition, driveability standards for FWD cars need to improved across the board. No longer going into the future will vanilla input and soft feedback meet the cut. Increasingly drivers and car companies are making standard lines of tractable, pliant suspensions, great road feel, and flexible engines. This I expect from all future GM cars, if the cut is not there I will continue to see them is not deserving of my respect and as a left behind automaker, standing behind the leaders of engineering. Back to future product, the above Groove and Alpha Camaro sound very interesting. A convertible, hatch, and wagon Cruze should make the jump over here. Going forward, this will be GM's most important car line, in America, and potentially across the globe. the true compact, Aveo, should be renamed, but this car also sounds good for the future. Replacements for Epsilon vehicles need to arrive sooner than 2012. At least for Impala G6 and Aura, Malibu could feasibly be competitive in its current guise around that time.

The other potential winner is Groove in all this. thegriffon has mentioned plenty of times the Groove will make its way here on a bigger platform, Gamma. Groove will now spiritually be an HHR, given it's small size and stature, practicality, cheap price, and efficiency, and cool cute ute style. HHR was always a cute ute, but with small wagon proportions. Groove can be a better handling vehicle while retaining the small car proportions and cute ute look and feel.

retro styling may have been a key to HHR's success, and it's continued sales success is definitely boosted by its perceived style, but going forward I don't beleive retro styling to be a crucial element to small people movers, or mini crossovers, or mini minivans, whatever form HHR takes on. I do think the right style hasn't been capatilized for small movers and obviously the HHR is a dynamic case study to prove me wrong. The division happening now is medium crossovers [Edge/Equinox category] and medium large crossovers [Acadia/Freestyle] are beginning to take the reins from large minivans. Still automakers see a growing potential for a segment of buyers looking at fuel efficient people movers. No one can deny there is a subset that bought into HHR [and PT]. based on price, practicality, small size, efficiency, and notable style quotient. The question is are those buyers going to keep coming back and can they be better served by a different type of vehicle. After going over that in my head, I do think it's a gamble, and those buyers may not return to the newer, global small car based HHR, with its 'modern design'. I guess the answer will come with the upcoming concept, if it happens. From my view, if the execution is right, they may even invent a new segment, which HHR couldn't do, and find even more buyers. With HHR, the retro cues dramatically reduced useable space and one of HHR's biggest detriments is its lack of functionality and efficiency. its overall weight, practicality, and lack of fuel efficiency dramatically hurt resale value, which is an ultimate determinant of any given vehicle's desirability quotient. A lot of people buy new cars on a whim, based on style, and automakers make cheap credit so easy...but with used cars there is a lot of research, practicality, and comparison that factor into the decision. HHR has been a success, there's no negating that, even given fleet numbers, it even sells better than a Mazda3 for example. HHR has a lot to offer, but only if one views it as a small SUV. if one views it as a mini-transporter or small car crossover, than efficiency, practicality, and functionality has to be one of its key downfalls. HHRs design definitely has appeal to a core audience, mostly conservative older buyers who like a little flair in thier transportation. I believe there is a smarter design that has even more breakout appeal, much broader appeal, and more enduring appeal. though HHR's numbers have endured and key styling cues are still attractive, from my view it was old within months. that's given a more design-centric view of things. remember where I am and the type of cars I see on a daily basis. those not living in the kind of car-frenzy area I'm in will see this differently and perhaps think it had much more staying power than I. HHR was gold, but not solid gold hit status. it was short on key measures such a vehicle requires in its class. but as a design study, the lesson learned is good, appealing and unique design cues can make a people mover even more successful than it already could have been. it's especially noteworthy the HHR has had continued success.

that might be an interesting idea, for each consecutive generation emulate an old style until you find one that really hits a market. marketing-wise the HHR would become a symbol for a revived retro Chevy model, for example one magazine inlet could feature two dust roads, on one you have the shadow of the old Suburban with 2005 HHR layered over it [they can cheat and do the SS model picture] and the other side feature an old Nomad concept and then the new HHR. I'd think making HHR into the Nomad concept from a few years back, the one on Kappa, base it on Gamma, excellent handling, quality retro touches, feature a lot of customizability, and you might siphon over Mini buyers, plus hit a much broader audience with a lower price point, say around $16k. fuel mileage targets could be hit, the fun car meter would be hit, and the design might be a big enough success to warrant subsequent generations. the only problem I see is GM's own product plan is already so convoluted. Nobody has a small car yet like this at GM, and the spot is sorely missing. Within a couple years there will be yet another Japanese invasion happening on this category, the 240sx replacement and Honda's CR-X hybrid. yet again GM will be caught flat-footed on a hot segment.

no matter, Pontiac is already percieved as overwrought styling, non-performance, subpar quality mostly meant for rentals, in the bigger cities that matter anyways, what's another ten years of the same product lineup, same fortunes, can't hurt much more can it? Can we figure out the formula for how long we can maintain Pontiac out of it's real category, Acura, Nissan, Mazda, before it just loses all hope for relevance and a true sea of change truly destroys it? yes, that seems to be where they perpetually want to go. underdeliver, compensate with inundation of incompetent rebadges with varying levels of content that competes with its own GM brethren. If cars like the Beat could be sold under Pontiac with high content and strong performance value, meaning a base version and a high performance version both as great road cars, Pontiac could embark on the road to rediscovery and redefining itself. As it is now and as GM seems to want to keep it it will continue as a brand riddled with mediocrity that only appeals to tradionalists in the Midwest, of which the nubmer is dwindling.

people think GM is dumber than $h!, and the problem is, considering how much and how long and how stupidly the company has floundered, they really do seem that way