turbo200

I don't think it will set the market on fire, or even rejuvenate Buick the way they need it, but it will get some conquest sales and it will sell well. It is a NICE car, but it is not the breakthrough product Buick really needed. It will cater well to Buick's current audience, and will actually branch out and pick up some non-Buick fans, but not enough of those to justify its existence.

With where GM seems to be going with Saab, I'd rather see them make money on Saab now then continue changing thier minds about what to do. I love Saab and thier design team is fantastic, but thier lineup still looks like it will take until 2007 at earliest to get some much needed product. As soon as a product infusion could occur for them, Saab could be a revelation here in the U.S. marketplace, where everything Euro is seemingly cool. Until then, they are another financial and product drain on GM, who can't even give good products to thier core linuep.

LAIAS can work for me...but the drive through the canyons is something we all should do too. Croc, you're a funny guy, but I understand where you're coming from. I'm sure if we end up doing a meet and drive through the canyons or something, the offer would be there for you,....;)

I haven't compared the Accord to the Malibu directly like that. I actually haven't driven the Malibu yet, but I know that engine in the G6 fairly well, and I agree with your assessment. The punch is enough to live with the noise...IF all you're concerned with is value, otherwise it has a cheaper feel than competitors. It's disappointing to hear these things about the suspension on the Malibu. I really have not driven it yet because I'm not the type to go to a dealer and just ask to drive, I think it annoys them. And I'm not old enough to rent cars yet, so I haven't been able to sample it. I have been very anxious to sample Epsilon cars just so I can finally get my opinion down on the platform itself. I know you wouldn't say these things unless you honestly felt them though. I do remember in comparison tests the Malibu's steering and suspension were still criticized in comparison to the Accord, especially one done by MT, I think. I have been considering getting something practical lately, my desires have been changing and I am thinking I want to give up fun for easy in CA traffic, never thought I'd say that [I think Los Angelenos need a daily driver [i]and[/i] a fun car]. So my practical side knows the Malibu is a good car, especially for the money. It will all come down to a test drive, but just thinking of having something more spacious and easy to live with is making me wish, but losing the fun in my car is not something I'd like either. Hey, there is always the next generation of the Malibu, and at least it has good mileage for now.

newbie, did you actually get to sit in them? I'm thinking of going to the show around thursday if i get the chance and want to deal with traffic going down there :)

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29 mpg at 85 mph!! That's amazing for that car, and it probably could use a little more breaking-in. OC, Southern Californian C&Gers need to schedule a meet.

The HHR will have a high performance version soon enough, could be a turbo pushing more than 250 hp [scheduled for the Solstice], but definitely at least more than 200 hp. I agree with those that say it is better to keep this in limited supply. Keep the demand up high. I predict this design will wear better than the PT did over time too. I think after the first thousand PTs I was already sick of it, the HHR is actually more of a realized design in that sense. I am seeing tons over the LA area. Just the other day I was at Santa Monica beach and I saw two HHRs in the same parking lot, and then two minutes later I saw two of the same new Impalas in the same parking lot . Great to see so many Chevys!

I agree with the demographics points. Who are the ones who can't bring themselves to objectively admit that other cars, besides those from thier favorite companies, might have virtues and qualities? I am open to praising American engineering and American design when I feel it is deserved. Does everybody else feel the same about cars from across the pond? I know you are all trying to be patriotic, but patriotism goes so far before you start looking like you don't really know what you're talking about. A simple admission that there are cars from all over the world with desirable build and desirable content and desirable design is more than enough. If they're not your preference, fine. I would rather have a C6 Z06 some days and other days I'd rather have a Porsche 996, oh well. Most days my favorite car is a BMW M3 convertible. That doesn't mean I don't love a nice Cobalt SSSC or that I like to see new Impalas or HHRs on the road. Maybe it's those that were raised solely on American cars that should open their eyes more?

2001 is when the 6th gen civic came out without double wishbone, and i've driven one of those and still liked it! I don't know BV, go for what your heart wants, if that's a civic, so be it! Civic's are incredibly practical choices too, they will last and last and last, and nicely too. One last thing: Consider a Nissan 240sx!!!!!!! RWD, 170 hp in normally aspriated form, turbos are easily available, world-class handling and braking, steering....very efficient and sexy to boot.

As much as Nissan can get some designs right, so many of thier designs fall flat on thier behind. Nissan barely gets design right, well they have had a lot more success with Infiniti in recent times, but other than that and the Altima and 350z and Xterra, most of thier designs are just plain with wierdly shaped surfaces that don't always seem to blend in together, imo. At least they got the interior right on this one. Though, like Petra, I doubt we will get all the luxury on this. The funny thing is just as Nissan is getting out of their interior design/materials slump [this and the M45 are the first evidence of it], GM is too. And GM's own Aveo will almost outclass this car, just because it is in a lower class of car altogether, and offers what LOOK to be similar materials and design quality.

Let's say a steering rack came from Delta and use on Kappa, hypothetically, that wouldn't make Kappa in any way shape or form based on Delta. Kappa is really more based on the Corvette and it's tubular structure. To shorten development time on Kappa, GM used a lot of off the shelf components for it, a rear axle from the CTS, brakes from somewhere else, etc etc...

That's taking it a bit too far toyoguy. The STSv is at least as competitve and offers as much performance as the E55, and it's aimed at a different audience than the M5. Luxury-wise the STS is a nice vehicle, perhaps the interior trimmings aren't as nice or techno as the MB, but for the price you get a nicely designed, "different" stealth Cadillac. The key is it's a different luxury machine than your average BMW or MB, this is a new ultimate Caddy, and will catch on thanks to great performance and looks. My problem with it is it just competes; it doesn't go in and kick the shit out of the rest of the competitors like it should. I can just imagine a performance M45.

it's a whole new ballgame and GM isn't cutting it. that's why they are losing market share and that's why they are crossed off of so many shopping lists. that's why even when there are huge massive programs going on, Toyota is still winning market share and showing sales increases, while GM needs massive profit-cutting image-hurting sales programs to drive increases. Why couldn't they have worked harded back in 2000 when we all saw it coming here, the Japanese were creating bars so significanly higher than what GM had, yet they shot low again with cars like the Malibu and Ion, and even Cobalt now. It's thier own fault. Why is Toyota doing so well? Is the whole country against you, razor? Don't be ridiculous, their freedom of choice led them to make both rational and emotional decisions against GM, not you. Still, many others make both rational and emotional decisions to purchase GM [less emotional]. The problem is thier's not enough people making that decision. According to me, they have no one else to blame but thierselves. The problem has been with the product. Cars like the HHR, Impala, Cobalt are starting to show a competitive edge at GM and some are better executed than others. As long as they keep this up, and they will, sales will go up. Read this forum, read what evok has to say, read Hey Now's post about "How Many Body Blows". Things are much worse at GM than you or I want them to be. These products may be too little too late; if GM had listened to ME back in 2000-1 when I was saying it on these boards, and lots of others here too, they wouldn't have these problems now. It took them more time and more drama to go through to truly understand they needed to let the designers do thier work. blindness and loyalty will only keep you in the dark..

how do you make a half minivan half SUV? :blink:

that puts me back in the swing of things with regard to the CTS. Terrific, will make this car a class leader if everything comes to fruition.

where was this confirmed? what will they be using to get power like that out of that engine? can we expect other improvements, NVH and mileage in particular?

I never said GMs cars were trash. On the contrary, they have consistently been solid vehicles. Here's the problem with this. You are defending them by saying they are not trash. That really sucks, ya know? This company can get it so wrong that here we stand saying they are at least not trash. Couldn't they have shot higher? GM's cars have always been good reliable transportation. I try to recommend then whenever I can for that particular reason, and also because they are good values. I also encourage anyone who likes the designs GM has to offer. Unfortunately, the reality is to someone who is totally impartial cough cough, C&G needs lessons in this; they will look at everything there is to offer. And if these are the only selling points of the car, well they will look for the best the market has to offer, and will analyze the selling points and make the appropriate decision. IF GM is what they WANT, then all the more power to them! I, however, will not lie to someone, and will remain neutral, I don't ever tell anyone they made a bad decision, because it was thier choice, and it is their perogative if they find out it was right for them or wrong for them. I'm not referring just to GM here either. On the defensive thing. Well, I wasn't referring to you FOG, ever. So don't worry about it. I really was referring to a few others and whoever hasn't really done a back to back comparison. You say the media will always look down upon. I don't know what your situation or environment is, or if your overall kind of a skeptic in many more ways than you think. I try to listen to opinions objectively and really understand what it is everyone is trying to say. The media does not always look down upon GM's products. Well, I can point to a number of magazines/websites that have now changed their ways and are praising some of GMs newest cars, because they are recognizing the real improvements they are. Edmunds lauded the SRX, the new Impala, the HHR, liked the STS, the C6. MT lauded the STS, Cobalt SSSC, HHR. Road And Track has been a fan of many GMs. Automobile loves Caddys, and a lot more GMs too. Basically what I'm trying to say is journalists need credibility in order to have an audience. In some extreme cases, their have been journalists who managed to convince thier readers that what they say is always the truth. In some cases, but not nearly as prevalently as you would say so, journalists can insert their bias into testing and debase a car for seemingly no reason. That doesn't mean I have never been mad at test results or the ultimate opinions of editors on certain cars. But, in general, I think most opinions on GM vehicles are deserved and concise, with a few exceptions. My bottom line point with that: the media won't always look down on GMs. When GM really gets down to it and develops breakthrough product, the results will be lots more people buying into them. With your last point about credibility, again this wasn't something I was specifically referring to you, and I don't know why you took it that way. I thought we usually agree, and sometimes we don't, ah well. I was really being very general here, with everyone who doesn't force themselves to be as objective as possible. Too many times, I begin to read a post and just get disappointed with what I am reading because the author's bias is like socking me in face. It's like a punch in the stomach it's so freakin obvious. I just wish they would really enlighten themselves and get over thier prejudice; life would be so much easier if they opened up to choice and all the great things that are out there and remained conscious of that at all times and they got rid of preconceived notions.

and that's really all that i am saying. they have always built decent vehicles that were good "values" in most cases. BUT that just won't cut it in today's CUTTHROAT market Good enough is not enough when you've got cars like the new Civic that set such high standards. When the going gets tough the tough get going.....the tough gotta get going otherwise GM won't be in the game anymore...

awesome dave i like your attitude

The STSv is an awesome car, it's just that I don't know how well it will compete.... I love the styling, the interior is good, decent enough I guess (for this price you should not have to settle), great engine, great suspension, great power, great exclusivity.......we will see how well it does. Regardless, it's a great entry for Cadillac, and a necessary one, and a great segment to be in, this car will only be positive for Cadillac's image...

This doesn't need to be a bash thread and that's what it quickly has turned into. Our opinions are all slightly different, but I think we can all agree that GM has made cars that were not up to the competition's bar right? If you cannot agree with that, then you are lost in a cloud of loyalty and ignorance to the truth. Drive any Japanese car from the '90's and then drive any comparable American car from the same time frame, and you will see a dramatic difference. I mean DRIVE the DAMN car. Don't just sit in it. Don't just argue with someone driving it about how it feels underpowered. DRIVE IT. I'm done with that. Everytime I try to suggest that to people here, they get all defensive. Defensiveness is a sign of weakness. Sixty8 might have a good thing to say about this. He owns a damn good Japanese car from the MID-80's!!! How is the structure on that car sixty? Pretty damn tight right? Has it given you many reliability problems? As many as the Cadillacs? How's the engine on that baby? Pur like a l kitten? What about the overall feel of the driver controls, the shifter, the steering wheel, the positioning of the seat? Give us your reiview, sixty, as objectively as possible. I know you love American cars and I'd be interested to hear it. As someone else said above, there is nothing objective about the difference in the Accord interior to the Malibu interior, now or then, just sit in a damn one and feel EVERYTHING! Then DRIVE! Look beyond the styling, the badge, and deciper what CAR IS truly there. CaddyXLR, thanks for calling me out on my first post. Let me be clear about that motto of Toyota's I made up. Toyota is on a quest to satisfy the EVERYMAN. Every man in this country has a little bit of that in him, and when they get families it becomes even more prevalent. They are on a quest to dominate the market that cares most about practical things, sophistication, reliability, quality, durability, efficiency. Thier quest has been simple for years and years. What would the everyday man drive? What does he most care about. People have lives beyond thier cars, most people don't want to worry a damn thing about thier cars. Most people don't drive Z06s. Most people just care about getting a good car, something to be proud of, something that will not be looked down upon, and something that is a good deal and perhaps makes you feel like you paid for something "TRULY EXTRA". That "truly extra" thing is what Toyota has been baking into thier cars for a long time now. IT is refinement, quietness, the silky smoothness of the engine, the way everything is pleasing to touch and feel, the way the seats make you feel as if they were orthopedically designed, the way the car holds up SO WELL over SO MANY years, the way the suspension is just so quiet and soft. It's a number of things. I am no Toyota lover. I drive performance cars. But I am an absolute obsessive compulsive perfectionist. I praise what deserves praise and hold no bias. I am neutral but have loyalties. I am damn loyal person, and will fight for what I believe in. However, I am principled and will never compromise in my beleifs. Cheerleaders, swallow this: the more and more you blind yourself to the FACT that GM has made cars that were significantly under the standard of the classleader, the more you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

BV: most of the people from California are just like people from every other state. You are generalizing and don't really know what you're talking about here. That is something you will learn to do less as you grow up. Come to California and interact with the people, from different parts of the state, and you will see that we deserve to be a part of this country just as much as others. And, I'm sorry to say, but you are displaying quite a bit of ignorance by disputing what analysts have to say; analysts who have a whole lot more practical and useful knowledge than you have at your age. I'm not saying you aren't smart for your age [I don't know] or that you couldn't be a very smart person at your age, but there is a great deal you don't know, and you display it in your posts.

It's important for us to understand what the STS' greatest weaknesses are in the first place. If we go by the comparison test MT first did of a fully loaded (meaning the best suspension offerings and drivetrain choice) STS versus the 5-series, we will see that the STS weak points are few but prevalent. High on that list is a weak interior that pales next to literally all the competition. This segment has set the bar so far, an M45's interior is now nicer than a current S-Class [on it's way out too]. The M's interior is brilliant; so is the A6 and so are a few others in this class. It is not time for GM to bargain their way out, this is Cadillac, it should not be low-rent. Design and materials are still behind in the STS, and even with an all-leather interior, this doesn't mean the overall "okay" design and lackluster materials will disappear. One of my bigger complaints with the interior is the quality of the controls used. They just aren't up to par, and won't be, because the new leather won't affect them. The other weakness addressed in that article is the pricing structure. This, of course, is no longer relevant since we are talking about a high performance model that is a league above in terms of pricing. The STS' biggest positive points are its suspension and engine; expect those only to be significantly better in this iteration. And I wouldn't be surprised at all, in fact I am expecting the STS to get a low 4-second 0-60 time for bragging rights. The regular STS goes as fast as 0-60 in 5.9, so a second and a half shouldn't be that hard for a car with 149 more hp. The only reason I think the STS doesn't compete so well in this class is because of the interior and exterior. The exterior will get some work with the V-series, so that should be alleviated. The interior will be another thing. I don't see too many Vs already though, and I don't think this one will be enough to convince all the AMGers to change over [and there are a lot of those].

I'll take $77k :( :P :D http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons//AH-HA_wink.gif evok, how does it compare with the new M5? They are targeted at slightly different markets, with the M5 being a little bit more for the enthusiasts and the STSv going after the E55 more; but how does it compare? Drive-wise, power-wise, design-wise? The interior of it most likely won't match up, I like the 5s design better and the materials are obviously much better... When I said value pricing I was really talking about the whole STS line; when comparing it with the competition it doesn't always measure up. So maybe there needs to be some readjusting. But as long as deep discounts are avoided and sales are marching steadily, then there should be no reason for readjustments.