regfootball

and where's the bluetooth / ford sync competitor?

Wow enzl, WTF? Saturn is trying to build the spirit of people and fans having ownership in a brand and you can just sit there and $h! all over it? Harley for years made a crapload of worthless motorcycles by ricer standards ( I am not a hog fan either)......yet, tell me please which bike brand is most die hard? Sometimes its not all about perfection. I think we see some of that with Saturn. build the fan base in ways where people can invest their enthusiasm, not just their 20 minutes they spend reading consumers reports. We all know where GM vehicles are deficient. What Saturn is doing here is not all about that. Saturn is attempting to re-engage their fan base. I only see Hoyotha doing that with the prius bangers. Show me a bunch of people in this country who have emotional investment in their Toyotas. I would venture to say many Toyota lovers have about as much emotion in their personal relationships too. That group compares nothing at all to the brand loyalty at Daytona bike week. Toyota would rather spend the 21k buying off a southern politician for more big fat American tax breaks than organizing an event to build the fan base. so maybe lay off a bit and allow saturn to see what they can do with this, ok? Besides, this is a GM fansite...and we also happen to be some of GM's biggest critics. Would you expect an enthusiast to write scathing things about their own passion? But what did you expect fly would write? The same biased trash that 3/4 of the Auto 'journalists' do? It's a law you know, that those guys don't get paid for their piece unless they bash GM Ford and the USA relentlessly. my beef with saturn is still the GM card thing.

yes, fly, excellent articles. I wish the trash that permeates Motor Trend these days was half as good.

yeah. i think one FWD car is still worthy in pontiac land at least to allow for more sales $$$ and provide contrast to the RWD G8. I also subscribe to the flybrian theory that many folks over the last 20+ years have grown to love large GM FWD cars and so why slap them in the face right now also. Go home to my parents area or where my inlaws are and large FWD GM cars are as prevalent as BMW 3's in OC. I just look at Chrysler right now. They put ALL their eggs in one basket. The macho Hemi RWD basket and now they are caught with their pants down. The too narrowly focused and somewhat small Avenger and Sebring cannot make up for losing the appeal they had with Sebring and Stratus and LH cars. Now DCX does not have a large fwd car and deserved or not, the 300 has a rep of a fuel sucker (even though the v6 versions probably get ok mileage). Its examples like that they lead me away from any GM division (sans Saab or Caddy or Hummer) getting too narrowly focused while the dealer networks remain as large as they do. If you were to tell me GM had unlimited porject budgets ala Toyota and could refresh new models 39 months on center and have stellar and stunning efforts with each new model I might agree to focus Pontiac etc. a bit sharper but GM is pathetic enough in getting new models up and running the way it is.

great pics, CD.

I ain't gonna get into that again after the Pontiac thread, but on fly's point...know that the TL-s is quite a bit more commodious than the 3 series example he used. Aside from that notable difference, the examples he uses is the deal. For me, I'd be pleased as punch with another well done FWD car like my 89 SHO, or I suppose which is what the TL is today. Mid sized (TRUE mid sized). Strong v6, competent handling....simple design, and good winter get around capabilities. For me with that config I get a car that I know I can get around with every day of the year and it has good space utilization in the cabin. I know the engineers can tune the chassis for as much handling capability as I would ever need, and I know I can still get a firm enough ride. I get the predictable feel I like and no worries about it being tail happy. My limits will be tougher to reach with a good FWD chassis. I might have some torque steer and the steering might be a bit heavy but good engineering can almost eliminate those things. I do like the way RWD based cars drive but for it to be desirable and useful and attractive to me then it's gotta be an AWD variant of it. 25, 30, 35k + is too much $$$$ to spend on a car to have to deal with either the hassle and cost of snows, or to even put ballast in the trunk and even then it's still not a great solution to have to deal with that crap. The hassle of taking far longer than everyone else getting away from stoplights on snowy days. The inability to make it up an icy inclined driveway. Electronics doesn't solve those age old problems as completely despite what some say. I don't 'track race' and I don't drive 'twistys' and I would guess few others do also. I like the steering feel of a RWD vehicle and neutral handling but if the execution is crown vic like as opposed to GTO like then what is the point. In the end my RWD which is a bit heavier to start gets a bit more heavy with the needed AWD. As compared to a FWD/AWD car its a negligable difference but compared to a FWD only setup now there may be some added bulk which may negate the better steering. So it is overall execution that matters most. But I think the everyday virtues a FWD based car brings to the table cannot just be thrown away. And it appeals to a broader x-section of the market, which drives more $$$$$ overall. GM may be wise to work towards 5-6 platforms to satisfy all buyers and markets (cars). a subcompact FWD chassis (maybe need 2 versions of this for all markets, one 'old' , one 'new') a compact to small medium FWD chassis (maybe need 2 versions of this for all markets, like above) a mid to large mid to large FWD based with AWD optional a small medium to mid RWD/AWD optional a mid to large mid to large to very large RWD with AWD optional (ZEta) I would then add Lambdas to that for the Acadias and whatever minivans or ridgeline clones are to come of that. You'd also then have Kappa and Corvette chassis.

if you have a tailwind?

I only know a couple things. the current DCX 300 did great out of the gate. Now DCX has big trouble moving cars. I also know the last gen FWD Chrysler 300 did quite well. Its stablemates, the Concorde, LHS and Intrepid did exceptionally well as well. I don't recall this group being as difficult to move as DCX's iron is right now. In Chrysler's case, the success of each 300 product is primarily due to style and overal vehicle execution, not drive wheels. Both versions of the 300 won praise for being great cars and both sold because of that. Both versions are good cars. That said, it's hard to imagine the current 300 having FWD. Just as hard to imagine is trying to apply RWD to the last gen 300. Both cars managed to have success. The current 300 tapped a market that was unserved for awhile. Now that that market has been served for awhile, we might see sales drop. The FWD LH's sold well not tapping into an unserved market. Again, it all boils down to the flavor of the car and the execution. Not every car needs to be FWD. However, I think the appeal of many cars if they were RWD would go in the crapper. For example, volume cars like Accord and Camry would see big sales nosedives if they became RWD. Look at how the Impala sold way better when it swtiched from RWD to FWD. We all know a RWD based chassis makes for a more dynamically sound car but as an attribute that actually moves metal to the masses, I don't think it has the big draw some of you think it does.

Since the current G6 doesn't get 28/35 with what is basically the same engine and weight and FWD, I am not sure how you'd ever get 28/35 out of a heavy RWD car like that. And even then it doesn't crack the 200hp barrier. My 500 weighs only 100 pounds more than that with 200hp on tap and it gets roasted for being slow. If they could bring the weight down to 3200 pounds (like the weight of a FWD Accord or Altima) then you may be onto something.

yeah, good stuff. get some import humpers to read that, I doubt it would sink in, though. We should rename this thread so more folks notice its content.

i thought i heard panoramic sunroof was G6 exclusive now.

reagrdless of what is true.....what is disturbing is that apparently GM still has no clue and still takes FOREVER to do anything. No one is going to wait for this crap to develop. 2010> 2012? My God, you need to move faster! Everyone wants to see progress in the showroom NOW. Time has run out. GM needs to pull its $h! together and figure out how to get enough dollars and resources to get their best to market NOW. And then new model cycles every 3 years. 4 years max. This is maddening, frustrating, and irritating. At some point you don't even care anymore about their union costs, benefit costs, yada yada....... with the pace they do things they really ought to die. because its like watching a mentally challenged kid with his shoelaces tied together tripping and falling run in a race against Carl Lewis and Willie Gault.

This will be a fun companion topic to the mid size sedans one. no lux makes please. Just the blue collar ones. No way I can make a full list right now, but here is for starters. 1. Mazda3 -the Astra would get inserted here 2. Rabbit / Jetta -or here 3. Lancer (new one) 4. Sentra 4. Cobalt / G5 4. Focus -Versa would get inserted here 7. Imprezza 8. SX4 sedan 8. Ion 10. Corolla 11. Elantra 12. Spectra 13. Civic 14. Forenza / Reno Mini and C30 make the list if you include lux cars.

wow

many. many. many. probably the deal was since the bonneville at the time had such a small back seat, the GP's needed to be smaller yet.

only if they put a Torrent grille on it!

the amount of cars at the DCJ dealer by my house I cruised today was STAGGERING. The Ford dealer right by was barren in comparison.

I've driven an SE and GXP of the current GP. I liked them both with some exceptions. The seats I love. Not sure why folks don't like em. They hug your boot. I like the dash layout even if the plastics are not stunning. Wraparound dashes score points with me. My biggest turnoff with either engine was the 4 speed auto and I didn't care for the 3800 either, but itdoes get good mpg. Ultimately, my biggest beef with the GP is bad packaging. Cramped rear, pancake roofline. Add in the cheaper interior and I'm on the fence with this car. If someone gave me one I think I'd like it. The 90 degree rear opening doors are a nice touch.

oh, how is he gonna survive without RWD?

based on my Aura test drive last weekend I thought I should update this. 1. Milan 1B. Galant Ralliart 1B. Altima 4. Fusion* 4. Mazda6* 4. Grand Prix* 4. Aura 4. Impala* 4. Passat 2.0* 10. CAMLEE 10. Avenger 10. Accord 10. LaCrosse 14. Malibu* 15. G6 16. Sebring 17. Legacy 18. Sonata 19. Optima List can change daily.

it's a 2 door and it looks like a chevy front grafted on a new gen sebring greenhouse.

thanks but mind is made up. i get plenty of windows action at work. i want something more media friendly at home. only unless wife needs a laptop w/ windows for better use of work files, would be the only reason at this point.

LIONS SEND JOSH MCCOWN AND MIKE WILLIAMS TO OAKLAND

1) You have $30,000, no more, to buy a new vehicle. What do you get and why? This is a hard question to answer unless you test drive them first. Unless you are like one of those jerks who simply reads Consumer Reports and just goes with last months copy down to the toyo dealer. I might pop for a basic Acadia/Outlook, a basic Edge....a larger crossover is most useful to me right now. Room, comfort, style that a sedan cannot provide for a flexible life. For some reason I have felt poisoned and thought I ought to look at an Odyssey and Quest again as well. Aside from that.....Maybe a G8 upon intro or heavily discounted carryover CTS at MY end would do in a pinch. There's a couple more I would have to think of here. I am waiting to also see how the 08 Taurus and Sable pan out in case I want to pull ahead from my underpowered 500. 2) What do you consider the most significant debut in the US market over the next 12 months? Malibu...it'll likely get roasted still by the press, but this car should still buoy GM and support GM as it tries to keep pace. This will be the car that determines if USA inc. has any ability left to win over the snobbish public. The CTS and G8 also are important because both of those cars are absolutely crucial to define those two brands for a next couple years. The Lambdas story unfolding is huge as it grabs hold of the exploding crossover segment meets family values. The new Accord I assume will steal lots of press. New Highlanders and Pilots will make news. The next 12 months may actually not be as exciting as this last 12 months. Maybe the Hyundai RWD car will make a splash to taking on Lexus/BMW inc. Just about any crossover will get lots of attention. Nissan Rogue should do well. Ford's Edge will give something to Ford to at least have some happiness about. 3) You see the Saturn Aura is not taking off and doing as well as expected. Inventory levels and incentives are rising, what course of action would you envision GM take? Simply put, production may need to be slowed. I do not feel the ad campaigns are doing squat. And they are decent ads....I just think the new perception of Saturn is hard to initiate......Saturn is essentially changing everything and there was nothing for them to fall back on in the first place. Right now, Saturn may just need to narrow their intended ad targets. The ads are so general and generic and goody two shoes. There is no sexiness to the brand. People love the Saturn experience but aren't familiar with the cars yet. At the auto show Saturn got great response, especially the Astra. But so many buyers use the Camry as a benchmark and against the Camry I think Aura fails on a couple things. It looks sportier than the Camry and looks smaller inside and not as nice inside. The mass of folks looking sedan seem enomored with the bland vanilla quiet ride thing. The Aura has a bit more of an imitation German sedan feel to it, rather than the hushed japanese sedan feel all the mags tell you is the correct thing to have. So the Aura is not as inoffensive or mainstream looking. Personally I think this is ok.....but so many car buyers are so cautious these days. Personally I think Saturn did as well as they could have considering their limitations here. Saturn got stuck with the undersized Epsilon chassis and the car is too narrow. Also, the cabin and seating are a smidge too low. Makes the car feel racy to a point, but again it would lack the seat position and head room of the Camry. Also, even with a seemingly conscious effort to score interior stlye points with nice leather on the seats and cool gauges.....they gave the dash and doors nasty plastic, and some cheapness in the center stack, serving to reinforce the image of GM doing garbage interiors. GM still needs to buy a clue and gain real advancement in interiors. Anyone who test drives the XR will be wowed with the powertrain. (I drove one last week) The v6 is awesome and 6 speed w/ paddle shifters is the same. No complaints at all......but what reared its ugly head was it was a bit noisy in the cabin and I was able to feel too much vibration and buzzing and too many impacts through the chassis. The ride was nice and firm but it seemed as though there was work to do yet in getting anywhere's close to a velvety feel. The steering also was ok, but didn't wow. Plus, the seats were narrow and cramped and not padded or shaped right. The biggest loss with this car is failing on the sensory touch point and refinement stuff. Again, a lot of it is being stuck with the junky small and flimsy Epsilon and parts bin GM crap like the seats. The car is also missing keyless start, nav, bluetooth, and other stuff that would give it a technological image. All that said, in order to build the brand, they really need to get people to meet Saturn (1) and drive this car (2)...(because even though i didn't wow over it I know lots of folks would like the car). It is hard to be a media genius in this day and age because everything is so fragmented, but print, tv, internet, mail marketing..all of it needs to be out there. RADIO. I would venture to say Saturn may need to sacrifice some individual model promotions in return for promoting the whole line of cars. Build the brand as a whole.....rebuild that is. You might as well skip Toyota buyers. You might be able to lure some Honda buyers. Otherwise, you are trying to get the more educated domestic leaners, and people who want anything else from Mazda, Nissan, VW, Subaru. You might even snag some Volvo, Saab, or Audi wannabes. Someone who might be enticed by a VW brand car but wants better value and more for the dollar may like the Aura. You won't be trying to sell to bread and potatoes Chevy Impala and Ford Taurus types a lot, although these folks can afford the Saturns. You also should just bypass the boomers.....the 50+ generation. they are fixated on toyota and that so move on. Try to start reaching the current college kids. Then the youngsters in the their late 20's and up through about age 40. You need to understand that these folks want to have an interaction with a brand and an affinity with a brand that defines them. It is a lifestyle statement nowadays, a car is. It's a fashion accessory. Saturn to me now says, "I am moving on and just getting started in the responsible and sensible part of my life, but I don't need to buy the 'store brand'. The Euro flair will appeal to these groups. People in these groups want to feel like that they are still a part of hip culture, are still a bit connected to it, understand some of it, and appreciate it, but are not slaves to it. They have not given up on youth nor succumbbed to the dead old mommy and poppy stereotype our parents had. Ride and drives would be how I would do it. Saturn doesn't get their product out to be seen anymore. Malls....get the product and reps on display in malls and lifestyle shopping centers. Use Focused internet and direct mail campaigns. Tie in promotions to people's life events and lifestyles. Get connected into culture. Market directly through where professional people work and network. I guess if I had more time I could dissect my thoughts on this and really make some useful information. As far as the Aura goes, then since the car has some hard to ignore weaknesses....promotion will have to be exact and productive until the next gen comes out and hopefully GM doesn't botch the width and refinement things. How bout some ads showing people travelling the world, or doing exciting things, ads showing people living their dreams and being ambitious and taking chances? Show that college kid who just graduated and just gave that first presentation at work and got a big adrenalin rush because of their success. Or that late 20's couple that met by chance and never believed they would meet the person of their dreams and now they are taking a european trip together (maybe they rented...an Astra?). Try to understand the things that people feel define their lives and experiences. Find the emotion in those achievements and take the flavor of those emotions into the car and ads. There also needs to be part of the message there that touts On Star and the 100k warranty. 4) What do you see as a the next big trend? Not enough mind power to tackle this just yet.