regfootball

no $h!. everyone knows ford has too many SUV's. the point of the thread is to show ludicrous toyota's multiple SUV fest is.

chrysler has NO LEG TO STAND ON in any attempt to trumpet trustworthiness and quality of their vehicles. GM and Ford are legimately up there among the best these days. Where's Chrylser? NOT IN THE SAME GROUP.

http://www.autoblog.com/2004/11/05/farewel...barely-knew-ye/ thing is, owners heap high praise on their interiors. There are 3 other coworkers I work with who also have one and they all love the interior, its quietness, space, features, versatility and level of finish. so, you can be one of the bandwagoners that can't think above groupthink but truth is aztek owners have the last laugh because they are happy with their purchase. previous gen caravan owners may have been happy with their interiors. I don't see how that will be the case this time around, considering the competition.

the article does a really good job of summing it all up. And everyone on this board knows it. Problem is, the other 99% of the US does not. One important item was left out. Part of the reason and a big part of the import bias is the notion of better interiors and more tech advanced powertrains. that still exists and honestly I argue that interiors, aside from the reliability myth, drives most car purchases to average consumers. "how nice of a cabin cruiser do i get for xxx a month"? So to me, this perception problem will remain as it is until detroit really takes the gloves off in the press and in the advertising and in the marketing....AND.....dumps big time resources into interiors. and, moves AHEAD of the imports in the perception of how tech their powertrains are. Americans are dumb and don't always get it right away and a lot of the time simply don't want to change their thinking anyways. What i would do........anyone who trades an accord or camry in on a new aura or malibu or whetever, 5000 dollar trade bonus. put your money where your mouth is. if you own a camry or accord of any year and any standing, we will give you 100 dollars cash on the spot to TEST DRIVE the malibu. If you buy the malibu and give up your camry or accord, we will give you an additional 5000 dollar rebate. radical, yes, but THAT WOULD GET PEOPLE IN THE SHOWROOM. then, send the accords and camrys to the crusher. Get the competition off the road and into the car you are selling.

REVISED FOR 08 MODELS (without seeing malibu or 08 mazda6 yet) haven't been able to establish an order, just groups TIER 1 Accord Milan / Fusion Galant / Ralliart Altima Malibu Aura Mazda6 TIER 2 Grand Prix Impala Passat 2.0 G6 Camry TIER 3 Avenger LaCrosse Sebring Legacy Sonata Optima

Which one do you like better? I think I prefer the Altima.

honda has shown a lot more innovation over time than toyota.

a- i had a 99 prizm. ok car...but it felt flimsy and well assembled at the same time. i didn't think it would feel buttoned down real long time. i got rid of it after 3 years and 20k miles. the blandness and flimsiness of it wore thin and left me wanting more...it really did not even satisfy in an appliance sort of sense. secondly.........so, vibe sales in 2005 when it was a fairly new model were 64,000 units....most if not all retail i bet. by the way, show me the 2003 and 2004 numbers. how many retail (non fleet units) does pontiac as a brand sell a year now? 09 vibe would no doubt rebound and sell at that number because it is a new design. 64,000 units + this years retail sales (- current vibe) = volume goal......64,000 % volume goal would be more like 20-25% of pontiac retail sales. maybe higher. lets say 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 pontiacs were vibes. pretty strong case to keep the model if you ask me. just like it would be suicide to cut the G6. new vibe + torrent selling at a big clip makes it a hell of a lot easier for pontiac to exist as a brand and be able to provide that rear drive you want, as opposed to folding under lack of volume. vibe=matrix w/ new front clip. not a lot of effort for a good amount of sales. face it, crossovers are hot, and this is a way for GM to get market share on that segment. chevy has HHR and saturn has vue so this is the only option left for this.

ok, 'for the usa'. add that on to my last post.

we got it 3 years ago. at the time we needed something inexpensive. it was about 5-7 grand cheaper than any LWB minivans across the board. it has about 75% of the utility of a minivan and a nice interior for the price we paid. and we've been completely satisfied with it. my transmission hasn't gone out. my ICP or whatever, hasn't gone out. I've got 75,000 trouble free lost cost reliable GM miles out of it in the 3 years. we weren't in a position like a lot of minivan buyers are. We wanted something for much less than minivan buyers spend so there is no correlation. FOr me it was either buy a compact car or the aztek. I ended up getting a completely satisfactory vehicle for a good price and it hasn't broke down. In 75,000 / 3 years miles i think i have only spent about 350 bucks to fix anything not wear and tear and not covered by warranty. That is TRUST, my friend, and I have faith in GM.....not DAI......If i had bought say, a short WB chrysler van, i suppose i'd have to worry about my front shocks being shot by now or my tranny going out right now. I never even considered a SWB chrysler van at the time because one of my buddies was having a bitch of a time with his about the same time we were shopping. I am not sure if i know of ANYONE who has ever made it to 75k in a chrysler product and has been trouble free. Part of the reason I am always leery of one. I know of plenty of folks who push 200k in GM cars over time. I honestly don't know of anyone who isn't ready to scrap their chrysler not too long after 100k most of the time. the dude that installed the blinds in my house, couldn't start his chryco van at my house and had to be jumped, why he was still driving it, i don't know. barely even got it started with a jump and i am surprised he didn't need a tow home. van buyers split into those who buy on price and those who like to buy as nice as they can get. chrysler sold to the cheapskate poor folk van buyers and honda and toyota sold to the yups with $$$$$$. now, chrysler is trying to price up the new vans at the level of the yup vans and the interiors simply do not justify the asking price to be with the big boys. is the gist of the thread. It would be pretty easy to satisfy a van buyer right now, just direct them to a one year old loaded freestar for about 15 grand and they would save 20g and the plastic would be about the same as the chrysler and they could use the 20g to pay off other debts. Maybe chrysler interiors lack these days because the money they would have spent on interiors has to go to warranty fixes and recalls....hmmmmm..........i wonder

because when all the jpanese car makers holed up in the bunker with the top japanese govt officials and japanese bankers, they decided toyo would be hybrid and honda would get diesels.

the freestar / monterey was the best buy going in vans for a couple years and that did not help them...price is not always the 100% issue.

wow, you are smoking something. the previous caravans had decent interiors, not class leading, but nice comfortable, warm feeling, well laid out ones. the chrysler vans sold in the volume they did, mainly on price, for reasons folks like me and carbiz stated above. THE NEW ONES ARE A REGRESSION IN INTERIORS. The powertrain is improved, but not such to offset the bad impact of mom checking out the inside of the rubbermaid hall of fame for the first time. we bought our aztek, a lot because it had a good interior for the price. its dated today, but that doesn't hide the fact that new dai van interior is about 2-3 nothces below what they should have put in it to contend in the market for the next 4-5 years.....

its 6 years old and they killed two models so duh sales are down. over its 6 year run, the vibe has sold a lot......i am not able to find numbers but it would not surprise me if they have moved 40-50k a year of these things since inception. that would be a big percentage of pontiacs volume in this span. like GM needs something lame like the Mini. it costs hardly anything to rebadge the vibe and in the process GM learns a few different things about how others build their cars. the vibe brings in more people than just graying haired guys who used to bo burnouts in the highschool parking lots in the late 60's and early 70's in their musclecar. vibe helps widen the pontiac demogrpahic. sure, it might be better suited as a saturn, but i don't see toyota agreeing to that, plus we already have the vue. toyota would never agree to it being a chevy. GM seems to not want to spend money to create a 'shooting brake' as you call it. fact is, since 2000, the vibe has been one of GM's most consistently popular and praised cars. sounds lame sure, but the vibe ushered in the crossover era. it deserves to continue in some form.

And this is why I say the chrysler vans may be doomed. EVEN IF they fixed the ride and handling, then the bad interior negates any and all progress made in that area, if they are trying to get big price out of them. i.e. this is the part Chrysler just does not get! Interiors are what sells cars!!!!!!! Mom has the checkbook. Mom controls the genie. Daddy is told by mommy she needs to have the van with the nice interior. Women are sensitive to cheap plastic and interiors more so than men. Women who have just given birth get really emotional about seemingly non-mattering things like this. If daddy wants mommy to ever let genie out of the bottle, than mommy is gonna want daddy to get the van with the nice interior. In addition to the one that drives nicer. It will be REALLY interesting to see if the new van interiors will be repellant to women compared to the ody and toyota. My guess is big yes. i think the magazines have been cautious in pointing out how nasty the interior is on these vans yet, because they have about 6 months of big advertising push checks coming in the coffers while DCX does the new model rollout. After 6 months or so, when DAI is done funding ads for this and has moved on, we'll see the real truthful reviews come out. re: GM vans...i was in a terrazza loaner recently and its interior wasn't too bad, but it feels like piloting a bus and does not feel like you sit in it. I think that's the turn off about the GM vans.....they feel more like driving a bus rather than something you sit IN.

i really like the magnum after i had one as a rental but in no way would i buy one; the interior is that terrible and depressing.

Pontiac dealers want something that sells. They are gushing because the Torrent is lighting up the sales charts. Image and brand purity are great, but they don't always pay the lights and payroll. Vibe sells enough consistently to be a contributor in that area. If no Vibe or torrent, you may not even have a pontiac dealer to sell those G8's in.

what y'all forget is that the vibe is in a lot of cases, one fo the very few GM cars that gets shopped by mainstream car buyers. the folks i have talked to that have either owned one or dirven one really liked them. it sells good for GM and gets people into otherwise not visited pontiac showrooms. I would prefer the vibe be more GM in style and engine, however, the vibe is a bright spot in GM's lineup and doing something absurd like a 'modified HHR' would not work. bottom line, vibe is almost the one car that brings in the ani-GM crowd. and its prob because its a toyota. ask yourself why that is.

I've driven the pacifica with the 4.0L/6 speed that is in these cans and its a good powertrain, so I give them major credit for that. It should move these vans nicely. They almost had to do that, however, I know a lot of people who have had transmissions go out on their DCX vans. It was COMMON. I've known people who loved their chrysler vans, but that's why I say this falls short. The new van interiors are not as 'warm' as the current ones. More bells and whistles, but your kid's school bus dash has more design and quality than this thing. Chrysler has been giving away the vans up to now, 8-10-12k off list. That is why they are popular. They will have to resort to similar price cuts to keep the same volume. That said, the Ody and Sienna ARE overpriced, although the Sienna has been doing wild price cuts the last year or so also. Toyo is subsidizing them big time. I drove an odyssey recently. It was refreshing to have good steering and handling in a van. Only the quest offers a great ride and handling combo also. Its lame to say 'but no one wants good handling in a van', that's just being ignorant to say that. people want their vans to feel carlike with ride and handling and suspension that is comparable to an agile sedan but also compliant and comfy on bumps. Its moronic to suggest in 2007 that you have to trade off piss poor chassis dynamics just because its a van. That's setting your own personal bar quite low. I guess if you want it to drive like a dump truck or school bus, that's fine with you. What I do think the ody lacks is chassis solidity. I don't think the frame is up to the stiffness if the suspension. You feel too much through the steering wheel and floor boards and vibrations and stuff. Honda has work to do there. The toyota has the best combination of comfort / isolation (yes, I've driven that too). The Kia/Hyundai (yep, drove that too) is decent but lacks steering refinement although it feels decently solid. The Quest to me had what i like in a ride / handling combo in a van, although its a bit noisy inside, but my guess is they corrected it in 07. If chrysler knows anythig about anything they best be working up an all new interior for MY 2010. Because what's in there now won't carry them much past the 6 month splash intro in the market.

i still don't see why all those cahmrys in the hertz lot and at the 'all buyers drive away with financing' car stores get a free pass. that's just blatant bias to say that. percent don't mean $h! in this case because they have flooded the market with more camrys than people want to buy. 10% of 450,000 camrys is 45,000 cars flooding the market and killing the price of the new ones. so even if its only 10%, they obviously have reached a showroom threshold and they are looking for fleet to steal share or run factories. same effing deal as GM, they won't sell any more new ones regardless if they fleet or not, but with that many cars dumped into auctions it will kill new camry values. its a market share tactic and nothing else. it apparently is ok for toyota to do that however! they get a free pass! if you sell 500,000 camrys on the showroom floor and fleet out another 500,000, that hardly means you're guaranteed that a million folks want a camry or much less pay you a decent price for it. its really sad that such a mediocre automobile like the camry sells so much. the bar is not very high.

not sure how chrysler's vans can be the best when the interiors are so terrible. i've already seen at least one comparison test where the chrysler couldn't knock off the japanese.

YUCK.

i thought you always say GM's entries in all segments need to be home runs. Is Chrysler allowed a single to left field when they really need a solid triple here? Cause what I saw is not a solid triple.

you're not proving otherwise. give honda credit, their models don't really overlap.

the avalon does the defecto steering column, no? i think i read a press release that said that was a good thing.