regfootball

if you check the curb weights in that segment.....none of them are lightweights. pilot, highlander, odyssey, dodge vans, cx-9 etc. not all that far apart. you also need to consider if the weighed examples have the huge BAMR's or not. that alone can add many pounds of curb weight for an optional item. The lambdas are not much more and their fuel economy is basically the same in ratings and real world. the taurus X was a notable exception when it was the freestyle. it wasn't much over 4 dollars in FWD form but it added some poundage when it turned into the Flex. point being that the German SUV's are considerably heavier for their size and utility benefit than they should be. To address it even further....many cute utes that are the rage are quite heavy and don't get very good real world mileage. Mazda5's, elements, CRV's etc dont return very good real world numbers. Often times not much more than 20 or the low 20's. I laugh because my 500 right now is getting 22.5 mpg consistently this summer in all stop and go driving. And i can haul some really shapely women in my car to lunch, 3 of em fit in the back no problem. That's why i laugh when some people try to beat the system by buying $h!ty little CRV's. they lack space and dont get decent mileage anyways. Which leads me to my point on the Lambdas and why they are superior, you get fully spacious 3 row seating WITH a usuable cargo area behind it and STILL get mileage that is great for its class and not really that far off that $h!ty little cute utes. The outlander and element are about the only cute utes that have cargo setups that are worth the tradeoff. I guess the escape and equinox have good passenger and cargo accomodations as well. think about that next time you look at those crappy little worthless sportages. The RAV4 i do give credit for having a spacious back seat.

the whole point of this thread is that you'd buy a lambda over any of the envoys, uplanders, AND q7's, mdx's, toaregs, ugly ass pilots (saw one yesterday holy $h! its brutal), terrible highlanders, etc. we're fully aware GM's product cycles are too long on a lot of those CSV's and trailblazers etc. that is rippable. but cmon, the lambdas are the front line products to phase all those other ones out.

all those euro suv's are really fat pigs. tuoareg, no room or space and weighs a lot. q7 same thing. 5500 pounds, some of them.

i wonder which wheels you are referring to. my 500 is blue with tan leather. a brand new lucerne CXL has parked next to me in the lot the last couple of days. I am telling you, HOT CAR! OMG....same color, blue with tan interior. my colleague at lunch actually mistook that car for mine and tried to get in it. anyways.....i really was admiring that car and yes it had wheels on it i didnt think i saw on a lucerne before. NICE wheels though. the whole car was all shiny and beautiful! Paulie its so right for you!!!!!!!!! for me i dont care for the dash on the lucerne though i think it needs work. the door and the seats are ok.

an enzl + buickman combo platter, we'd all kill ourselves and start marching for the chinese communist army. i get the impression enzl is not concerned about whether GM fails or not, as long as he can sell some sort of car to unconscious customers in an easy unquestioned process and he doesn't seem concerned about whether the companies and ownership and decision making are here, as long as the buck in his own pocket is bigger and quicker.

i guess he needs to go to canadian driver dot com and read their new maxima review. there is an ass end picture of the thing which has a primo shot of the trunk lid. then look at the altima's trunk lid. looks pretty fricking similar to me. its the same car under the skin. rebadge? no more or less than a lot of GM's model proliferation. sportage=tucson entourage=sedona landcruiser=lexus gx whatever outlander=citroen and peuguot tsx=accord toyota skirts it by calling models 'scions' but then bundles their sales numbers back into 'toyota'. tc=paseo xb=? xa=? xd=? everyone knows those things are toyota rice, no wonder toyota is considering ditching the brand. the bottom line is if the product is good, reabadging and platform proliferation is no big deal. When the trailblazer and envoy came out i heard of many people paying well over sticker to get one and they all sold like gangbusters. GM blanketed the market. the flaw was not updating the interiors and powertrains over time. the lambdas come out of the gate as an excellent product and we hear of promised improvements, already we have a new engine. the segment is booming. gm has more tools and concessions in place to manage the production without binding union issues. the outlook is a bridge product or placeholder to help prop saturns volume and steady it until the euro people mover fills that hole. that's why chevy didnt get it out of the gate. reagrding rebates, g6 was way up last month with only 1k on the hood. yet GM is the rebate king? 1k on a 5 year old car that increases sales is not a bad thing people. wasn't aura up too? that's all with less fleet and less rebate. yet camry was down. what does that say? well GM has more midsize choices than toyota. maybe GM is on to something.

GM did drop the ball on small.....but look at the nice astra we have now and look at the new Cobalt spy photos coming down the pipe. even if GM had 3 or 4 new small cars out now I am not sure that makes up for the silly consumer reports phenomenon. as far as the dealer thing. i would feel sorry for joe employee who lost their job due to closing but i have no sympathy for any mogul that has bled the public for decades, only holds onto franchises for the value of selling them or getting bought out, and merely to hold up the value of the commerical real estate they own that would no doubt tank if dealers had to go down left and right. Its no incentive to right size your business if every dealer cut their operation in half to sell cars more efficiently. Demand and value of those big visible properties would crash and with it goes Mr McCombs or Denny Heckers wealth. My father was in a business that sold implements and machinery to a family that has owned dealerships for 50+ years and now has many mega dealers across the country. The investment of that family over time has probably been large, but its not like its all been recent. They were fortunate enough to get in on the ground 5+ decades ago and have milked the public in that time period and have multiplied their wealth because of it in many other areas, real estate etc. times have changed for them too and maybe that means downsizing their gravy train as well. although i give that bunch credit....they sell GM brands except hummer and saab under one roof and its where i bought my last GM and its where i will buy my next (even though its 5 hours away). why? ALL the GM brands and all the selection that comes with it. At least they had the foresight to not be divisive about the brands and take them all on. I for one am damned happy that I can choose which Lambda I want all under the same roof. this is the approach GM should be taking and in my opinion, dealers that are waiting out GM and standing in the way of making this happen are poison. The chevy pontiac dealer 10 minutes from my house is a run down $h!hole that only keeps its doors open to sell used cars and prop up the value of its franchise so they can get bought out when GM finally gives. This is a chevy dealer that has never remodeled in over 20 years, refuses to deal on price, and sold only 56 cars (told to me by another dealer) in the first six months and there is another chevy buick dealer 5 miles away that runs a much more professional operation that deserves to absorb the franchise. they have poor service and sales and just need to get out. Why dont they>? not to sell cars but they are waiting for the handout is all i can assume and dont want to devalue their real estate because all the dealers have moved to another strip and they will lose their arse if they have to sell.

not bad. derivitive. but not bad. i'd get it over a civic or corolla or elantra.

everyone who defaulted on making payments to their car loan they got by home equity, those 'near lux' cars, now they were forced to buy from kia because 'any credit is approved!'

dont forget all those who work for non profit 'think tanks'....i would love to see those BS entities go down and have to have those people look for real work.

volvo. 9 models and only 7000 sales. shut down the brand.

x3 sure is a lemon. 7 series is a big market dud too.

well if that was a 'domestic brand' everyone would be calling for them to shut down the brand and fold the company. all of nissan's frame trucks are WAY down. so much its scary. i'd rather see the titan sell than the tundra. the suzuki titan, equator, what is it? a rebadge whatever it is.

we rip GM for not selling in volume yet 187 A8's in a month is acceptable. 'premium small cars will sell in america' yet 419 count em 419 A3's sold last month. without an A4 audi would be hosed. they make impecabble cars but need to be sold as outrageous prices. this business model here can't keep up. it wasn't but maybe 7-8 years ago the a6 sold lots better.

elantra and accent make up for sharp (prob fleet) drops in others. cr christened the elantra best car last month so now i suppose the masses will buy hyundai en masse instead of toyota. the new media darlings now i suppose.

wouldnt surprise me to see someone get pissy when someone else brings to light the notion of the dealers and their moguls sucking hind tit off the general public for so long. anything threatening any modification to the gravy train would make one upset, no doubt. its not GM's fault the car market is down as a whole by 30% or whatever this year. deal with it. you want GM to downsize, then downsize your operation too. tear up your union-esque franchise laws and give them the flexibility to do the marketing and distribution moves they need to. cut your building and land and blacktop in half. get rid of half your staff. give up your franchises and consolidate without a payoff. go find a new line of work for yourself if you don't like the pasta on your plate. to turn it back around and blame gm completely is ludicrous.........toyota was down this month......unexpectedly so.......are you gonna go bad on them now since apparently the public is not showing them love either? GM's model portfolio has holes....but we are in a 12.5 million annual market now instead of 14.5 or 16 or 17. honda seems to the be the only one who can make a go of this market right now. to lay all YOUR hostility and blame on GM for a situation THEY did NOT entirely create is quite simply being a simpleton about it. ALL manufacturer's portfolios and marketing ability are being tested right now, GM is NOT the only one. They bring the Traverse to market and will by all accounts generate more sales and profit by doing so while taking share from others at the same time. Whether they do it through 1 channel or 4 is kind of pointless if they as you say cannot eliminate brands and must sell them down. As for the outlook, if it even only sells 24k-30k a year, that is in the neighborhood of 10% of their sales being held while they continue to bring out new models. Let's see, i don't think that you would want to lose 10% of your used car sales to your competitor if that gave them the momentum to keep growing their business and continue to squeeze you out. There is no fault at all to having 4 lambdas in the showroom. NONE. its one of the hottest segments and most profitable. while GM has these brands and the dealer arrangements cannot be rectified with massive cash outlay, then there is no harm in doing this. none at all. even if i said 'cut two' half this board would trip over their own teeth trying to decide which two to cut. we already have one FOOL suggesting the ACADIA is the one to get cut. I'm like 'wow......assinine' I don't see rebates on the lambdas either. the crossover market is there. its open for whoever claims it. chevy is sending out another coach to claim the land before someone else does. you cannot say the same thing about the buick terrazza etc. that market was dying. one of GM's strengths is multiple coverage of the market, so if a segment is booming there is no crime in plugging it. if demand drops, then get rid of the extra models. as far as overproduction, in the past that has been as much of a factor of union issues than anything. plants needed to run due to labor contracts. remember, products hitting showroom now were greenlighted 3-4 years ago. GM and others cannot make tectonic shifts in all their model lines in 6 months. If you can't even cut GM or FOrd or anyone a little slack for that, then you really are being unreasonable. DO you think toyotas 8 SUV's have anything to do with their suckage? Do they still rebadge the LandCruiser and whatever Lexus version that is too? wow GM's stock even went up today. hmmmmm.

i would guess for most people the really good 2.2 is a better base engine. and that engine gets great mpg to start with. turbo is fun but often times doesnt equal the same real world mileage when hammered on. blown turbos because of owner neglect could become a real warranty problem and it adds $$$$ to the cost of the car.

gutting the brands is not any more of a guarantee of positive direction for survival then maintaining them is. it only is because someone in the press said so. if you think GM has the cash on hand to buy their way out of all the dealer contracts and union contracts to radically pare down quickly then you are on just as much acid as the rest of us. personally my opinion, and i have said this for 8-10 years, is that all GM brands should be under one superstore roof with a lot fewer dealers. maybe each brand has only 3-5 models except for chevy, but the key is hold onto the brands and gain dealer consolidation. any GM brand in any showroom means the brands can rise and fall easily with the tide of the market. if pontiac is slow, buick may thrive. the cars can be more precisely tailored to the image of each brand. the money sucking dealer network is what is killing GM, not the brands, that is what needs to be cut. Actually, there is no reason why we can't cut the dealers out almost in entirety. We can do a lot more with the web these days and then it would be customer focused. I would guess if GM didnt have its dealer network bleeding them dry all the time, they might actually be able to become inventive and shrewed in utilizing marketing dollars more to accomodate the customer, and not the fat ass who sits on big asphalt lots holding real estate with acres of cars on them. that is a marketing cost that needs to be cut, not brands. GM should not have to pay for inefficient retail practices predicated by dealers who seem to prefer to not cut a damn f@#king thing themselves. its high time GM did not have to feed those bloated out of touch monsters anymore.

and your opinion on this ignores that if Gm shuts down 3/4 of its brands and half its dealers they are not gonna sell nowhere near the number of cars they do now. basically they would prob drop down to 12% or so market share instead of 20.....and then they would not even be able to field full lineups. at that point they would not even be able to supply platforms for their successful operations overseas. basically everyone thinks its an easy solution. chevy and cadillac and truth is if that is what happens then no one will care. GM cannot run on chevy alone. your mindset is to quit, even with good product on the floor. quit quit quit. i think i will call you the quitter.

its apparently perfectly fine for us to blatant proliferation of asian brand vehicles that all look and feel the same and are all priced the same. i doubt joe average who runs out and buys a RAV4 is fully aware of how big a pile of average that vehicle is. I've gotten stuck in a rav4 rental and its junk. yet we have the forester, rav4, outlander, crv......all equally mediocre and being sold and spewed in multiple dealerships. Perhaps we can weed out all that redundant subpar crap. Really, do you think the CRV and RAv4 are any so different that we can suggest that the world we be a whole lot better without one of THEM? GM has every right to design and sell products however they see fit. GM also has done the brand closing thing and all that did was cost money and market share. So, all you experts, tell me how YOU see this working out? Where I bought my last new GM vehicle, they sell all the brands except Saab and Hummer. I can if i want choose from any of the Lambdas i want to be honest i like having that choice. How many freaking versions of a 3 series do we have? is the 1 series neccessary? hardly. Look at the new maximas trunk lid....do you really think its all that different from an altima? Do we really need a maxima and an Altima? I'm kind of tired of armchair critique of GM. When GM does the product right, its totally fine to have a multibrand strategy. The Lambdas all are done right. Only idiots would write off the lambdas in this class and go buy a highlander without at least test driving a lambda. But since everyone has herd mentality, i understand that. When GM decides it is financially doable to kill brands then i am ok with that also. point being is all you guys do is repeat the blather in the press or whatever the hot opinion is. 7-8 years ago it was all about niche models and every detroit automaker had to make all sorts of brand proliferation and model duplication to keep up with asia and germany. well now, i guess the old double standard is reared its head again. it would be funny to see as people suggest......have only chevy and cadillac. how freaking absurd. How would you sell a nice vehicle like the Aurora? Chevy aurora? too nice for chevy. Cadillac aurora? wasnt nice enough for caddy. some folks cant afford caddy and some folks dont want the low rent status of chevy (or toyota for that matter). I dont want a toyota and i dont want a lexus. how come toyota doesnt offer me a brand line in between? None of toyotas brands are performance focused. None of toyotas portfolio has european styling.

and really you're just being too picky for what these vehicles really are.....family sedans in 2008. take a basic wagon or sedan, add a third row and make it look like an SUV. when the basic product is this good there is no need to get cute with it and try to make it weird. truth is each lambda is better than pretty much any other asian competitor right now. no family in their right mind if using utility as a litmus test for their purchase would pick the highlander or tribeca. the honda is dog ugly and for that reason alone can not be tops. the cx-9 is the only one you can say with the straight face might be universally better and even that one fails in some regards compared to the lambdas. in the final analysis, if the asian choices were gone from the market, no one would miss them because then people would be able to shop for more of the better choices. its their asian first mentality that is diluting the market with all the undistinguished flooding of the market. why should we eliminate GM's brands when the product is better? I say tell the asian carmakers to keep their subpar sh1t at home so we dont have to have the market flooded with their crap.

because the pilot and highlander and endeavor and tribeca are all such superior products? cx-9 may be better but not by much.. mdx is 15 grand more. i'd rather have 4 lambdas to choose from then all that asian crap. what did the review say already? steering is better on the traverse. we already know the styling is and so is the utility. warranty also. the pilot has been blasted in reviews i have read already. you heard it here. BLAND ASIAN CRAP but it sells in the US because people seem to prefer BLAND LIFELESS ASIAN CRAP you ever spent time in a previous gen highlander or pilot? how do you not vomit? talk about setting the bar low, talk about low expectations.

in 5 years no one will care as long as the end product is good. the epa, the feds and the state of CA have conspired to guarantee that most cars in the near future will be either fwd or fwd bias awd available chassis. better learn to like it. most people dont have the driving skill to be able to tell or maximize a rear bias chassis anyways.

you make it sound like there will be no net increase in volume and share with the new chevy entry. you're wrong. so, why do they sell 4 different brands of milk at the grocery store?

well they have four or five different color iPod? myself, i prefer choice. i used to like acadia the best, but i think the outlook and traverse are my favorites. I like the choice. its no different then the mind numbing number of bland asian choices without difference in every segment.