saturnd00d

What I'm trying to get people to understand is that if you just offer everything under one roof (AKA Chevy), the brand loses focus. Offering everything to everyone isn't a way to gain focus on your brands direction. Pontiac lost their focus when they offered chevy-rebadges like the G5, G3, and Toyota-based Vibe. They were supposed to remain performance oriented, but because Canada likes Pontiac over Chevy, why not offer Chevy-like vehicles over at Pontiac so they don't lose market-share? I'll tell you why, it's because that's exactly precisely why no one truly understands what Pontiac stands for anymore. The same can be said for Saturn, who were never meant to sell in volume. They were supposed to offer something different to the types of people who despised buying American cars, for fear of their subpar quality. Enter into a Saturn showroom and you won't have several salespeople bombarding you with helpfulness, they left you alone. They answered your questions only when you asked them to, they went through all of the waybill to pinpoint what you were being charged for so as not to leave any surprises for the end. They trully were ahead of the sales industry. Their products, while not exuding quality, were meant to be simplistic and different. THe interiors were japanese-like in design, the polymer panels provided owners with eyars of trouble-free exterior maintenance, etc. Then GM starved them of product and people didn't see anything new or exciting from them for years. Anyways I'm probably way off track, but when you try to be everything to everyone, and so is the next GM brand, and the next one, then there's too much overlap and not enough focus on what you were trying to achieve and who you were targeting with your products.

I don't honestly see the need for Saab in N/a. Still too much overlap in terms of pricepoint with Buick, Cadillac. Everyone that I've talked to in the past regarding Saab always states the same thing. Who wants to spend that kind of money on a car with a 4 cyl turbo, as opposed to a car from another company that would come with a V6 standard? That's where I think the problem lies, is that Saab's pricing is horribly off. Here in Canada anyways, they cost a fortune, and if you can pony up the money to even buy one, you'd be starting at lower features for the money than a competing car. I still think GM is missing the ball with their restructuring. Times are tough and not as many people out there are buying like they used to. Why focus on so many brands that have mid-tier cars with V6's and fuel economy that is average across the model line, when what really hurts them (especially in times like now) is their lineup of smaller and more fuel efficient cars. I appreciate the BAS hybrids and 2-mode technology, etc, but we need that sort of technology in good quality smaller cars as well. I'm willing to bet that premium small cars that offer hybrid technology, or diesel powertrains, or turbo-4's would have a significant place in the market. Think of all the students who drive to school, or the middle-class family members who want a small car as a secondary commuter car, or what have you. This is where I think GM should return Saturn to. Have a lineup closely mimicking Opel such as with a Corsa, Astra (Hardtop, convertible, 3 and 5 door, and wagon), Meriva, Antara (our current Vue) and call it quits. Nothing bigger than Vue. Market it, I mean really market it, not just with cheap $h! yahoo online ads. If anyone wants sedans, go over to chevy, if anyone wants V6 midsized cars, see Chevy or Buick, etc. This way, people can have premium offerings to the same boring Chevy stuff rotting (er sitting) on the lots right now. There IS still a small market for a compact wagon (Astra wagon, Focus wagon), convertibles (remember cavy and sunfire convertibles?), small MPV type cars (think Mazda 5 competitor, bit larger than HHR), and of course a smaller wheelbase CUV (like the Vue is currently). Of course, GM won't keep Saturn because without having a proper goal for Saturn, they will shoot themselves in the foot yet again. I agreed for GM to move Saturn upscale, but not to the extent of competing with Buick cars. I just want GM to offer people a good quality small car lineup with better materials and fit 'n finish than the basic Chevy stuff that people would not otherwise buy if it weren't for the low prices of them. But go ahead GM, focus on bigger cars and trucks, like you have been this whole time. That's going to turn things around for you for sure, just like it has been for decades. Sometimes you Americans really crack me up with your constant need for bigger, more powerful, more premium cars while at the same time always trying to find the best deal. So yes, save all the premium divisions, the ones that will continue the in-fighting, and starve your small car offerings, like you always have. Maybe when the next gas crisis hits, you might get it then. Hard to ask?

You're also describing what happened to Saturn as well, so I don't see why it shouldn't matter that it happened to one division and not the other. People are against Buick, people are against Saturn, and no matter what GM tried to do to turn things around it didn't resonate well with the public. Both brands lost their focus, both got shafted, and both have tried to turn around with GM's latest efforts with no rightful success. Sucks when you Buick fans get hit in the face with hard truth, like us Saturn fans have.

That's the whole problem, everyone thinks of volume this and volume that. Volume aside, is there any surprise as to why none of GM's divisions have a clear focus on their products?

My condolences to you and your family. Lord knows I've lost enough close people in my life to understand what you must be going through. I will keep you and your family in my prayers.

A vanilla volume division doesn't need a low-cost roadster...in my opinion, if it weren't for the heritage involved, Chevy shouldn't have even had Corvette, but Chevy back then was a different animal, and too many people would be upset to have Corvette removed from the lineup now. So Corvette and new Camaro aside, Chevy doesn't need to have sports cars, they should have left those to another division, or streamlined them seperately under the GM umbrella.

jlgolden, let me say this, you should not feel sorry for the decision your dad made to buy Hyundai. In fact, he shouldn't feel sorry either. His money, his decision. In fact, I've toyed around with the idea of buying that very same car. I love the accent. They are good on gas, they look good, the interiors aren't bad. For the money, they give pretty good value. I personally would never "settle" for whatever car, just because it's made in the US or assembled in Canada, or what have you. My money is simply that, and I would do with it whatever I want to. If GM, Ford and Chryco made cars worth my money, I would continue to purchase them. I've never owned foreign, and even though I plan to purchase a used Astra in a few years, that's not to say I won't replace my vue with something foreign when the time comes. Only time will tell. But back to my original point, you and your dad don't have to feel sorry for anything. He's worked hard for his money, and he should be free to buy with it whatever he wants to, domestic or not.

As a younger consumer, I'm able to afford Chevy and Saturn (new anyways), however with Saturn gone, I won't resort to buying Chevy, as the brand in no way appeals to me. They are too vanilla, because they try to appeal to too many people. There's no focus with the brand, so they will always be the "whatever you can afford" brand as far as I'm concerned.

And so if GM poured Saturn's resources into Oldsmobile, where would that have taken Olds? If I recall, Saturn started with econoboxes, and Olds was anything but that. Two different markets as far as I'm concerned. GM needed a concept to go after import buyers, and they developed Saturn with compact in mind, and a great sales experience. Olds offered nothing close to the same, so I find your point redundant. To call it junk was unfair, since it was the parent company who starved them of much-needed money. Should Saturn have been allowed to evolve over time, it would have been one of GM's best divisions now, as GM is hurting for good quality economy offerings. Chevy isn't good in that department, they just offer cheap reliable, not good quality reliable (economy cars anyway). Say what you will about Saturn, but they have a following all their own, similar to import buyers. And for good reason too. It's too bad that they now have the product that has the capability to topple the imports, but without widespread dealer availability, and no brand awareness, how can anyone think they would be profitable anyways? It's a losing battle when your not given the resources as your sister companies.

But isn't that what Saturn was created for? To appeal to people who wouldn't otherwise buy a GM product. So, for it to attract "people who wouldn't buy a chevy", it would also be appealing to those who would buy something non-GM, or non-american altogether. Anyways, best of luck to GM, but I don't think I'll be buying another new product from them again. I just hope for the American population's sake, that they know what they are doing, because it's your money for the most part they will be toying with.

I can deal with not having polymer, but the Cruze does nothing for me. It seems overly styled, almost as if chevy tried too hard. The volt looks great, but it's way over my budget. To be honest, unless something gives, I can't see myself being a GM fan/customer past my future Astra purchase, and even that depends on if Astras are easy or hard to find at the time.

I wouldn't call the ION a disaster. In fact, they sold decently well (of course not as good as the S-series) because they offered good powertrains, still retained polymer and were offered at a great price. The fact that you could have bought an ION 1 with crank windows, and pretty much none of the fancy-shmancies was great for the target demographic. Those being the fans of cheap and economical cars. I owned an ION 3 and although it wasn't as stylish as a Mazda 3, it never had any failing tranny mount problems. In fact, the only issue I had with mine, was the ignition module which was replaced under warranty. With that said, I love the Astra. I know it's an Opel and not a Saturn, but it's a car that fits my needs as a secondary vehicle down the road. It'll most likely be the last GM product I buy, whether GM survives or not. I've had enough of this company. They used to be great, but they've lost that passion long ago. I just don't see why I should buy anything from them if all they care about is making the best damn mid-size or full size sedan, truck or performance coupe. Where's the small-car segment they need to fill? This is their biggest vulnerability. They got it right elsewhere in the world, but not here. So the way I see it, if they want to provide us with crappy small cars, they don't deserve any more of my coin.

Though the s-series cars were never truly refined in the way they should have been, I think if GM didn't starve Saturn of the money it needed during it's peak, it would have been a far superior car to the imports in today's times, and the division as a whole would have looked alot better on paper than it currently does. Unfortunately, GM fan or not, I can't help but have a bad taste in my mouth from the crap GM has been feeding us over the years. Trucks and niche cars aside, Saturn was among the best to come from the General in a long time because it offered different thinking, different direction and for a time, was actually drawing in import buyers away from them. I admired what it stood for, and I admired backing up a company that actually invited me to test drive their newest cars knowing I wouldn't buy one. They treated me like more than just a notch in the dealership's belt. They washed my car, took extra caution to not get y car dirty during service, offered me tips and advice when I asked for it, and always with a smile. Can't say that when we brought my dad's 98 C/K in for service at our local chevy dealership, nor when we brought his 84 Chevy Van in before that. We have been a GM family since my parents immigrated to Canada, but until I bought my first Saturn, we never truly had a rewarding dealership experience. Shame really. I've actually gained a bit of respect for Ford in the last couple years, whereas I used to despise them and their products. If they survive, they just might get the next sale if for whatever reason I don't go with a used Astra.

Hardly...

You are echoing my point actually...except on a couple points... Cobalt being ugly is subjective. I don't find them ugly as much as I find them bland. On the other hand, I would pick an Astra over a Mazda 3. I find it handles better, looks better to me (again subjective to each person), and offers an equally impressive feature list. This is why I feel GM should step up it's game. Build the Astra stateside to reduce cost of assembly, negate cost of importing and able to lower MSRP to a more competitive level. As well, this is why I have argued that GM should consolidate Saturn with Cadillac because it can offer people the choice to buy small and economical, but step up the quality. Again, they can utilize Saturn to grab a slice of the VW/MINI/Subaru pie and leave chevy to battle honda, toyota, mazda, etc. I mean, who would cross-shop Pontiac with VW, Subaru and MINI? Likewise, insert Buick in Pontiac's place. Notice how they both don't target those demographics? So what is GM's answer to those 3? There is none. You'll have Chevy to battle Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda Buick to battle Nissan, Mazda GMC to battle Ford/Nissan/Toyota trucks !?!?! Pontiac to battle ?BMW I guess? Perhaps Mazda? Going back to my earlier posts back in the day, GM has too many divisions with too much overlap. Keeping Pontiac beyond anything niche-like is pointless, because they overlap with other GM divisions and other companies alike. Saturn, I find, would be good to battle slightly upscale cars like VW, Mini and Subaru because each of those have MSRP's higher than their closest competitors in their respective classes, and are held in higher regard in terms of interior materials used, etc. As well, all three are globally known, as is Opel, so people know that the quality is there, and as such, expect to pay more than your average chevrolet.

Um, first and foremost, I don't have to get used to buying anything...they have to attract me as a potential buyer. Also, just because the Cruze and the next-gen Astra share a platform, doesn't mean that it is essentially an Astra. The 03-07 ION, the 05+ Cobalt/G5 and the 04+ Astra all shared the same platform, yet the Astra Euro-side was tweaked to offer a sportier ride, and the cobalt and ION essentially rode and handled alike. Goes to show you that there can be differences between cars with the same platform. As well, look at the current Astra vs the current Cobalt. Astra has a 1.8L ecotec 4 while the cobalt can be had with 2.2, 2.4 and 2.0 T/C. Different cars, that behave quite differently. Consumers like choice, and I would say as of right now, they have it. Take away Saturn (the only other division GM has that offers economical options), and your left with Chevy. Consumers no longer have a choice when it comes down to GM. Smart move. Let's see where GM is again at the end of '09, when they continue to fail due to the lack of more economical offerings across the board. Let them continue to offer midsized sedans that barely brush the 30's, where they could try to implement new technology into smaller cars and hit the 40's like they did with the S-series. There would be innovation, but GM doesn't have that in them.

Let me add that here in Canada, people buy smaller and more fuel efficient cars as compared to our U.S. friends. Honda and Toyota are huge up here. Pontiac is also pretty popular around here. I see alot of G5's around. Problem is, once Pontiac moves to the niche market, what's to replace it? Cobalt? Well, there must be a reason why people prefer Pontiac's G5 to Chevy's cobalt up here. It's because the Chevy brand itself, is not held in such a high regard up here. You remove the G3 and G5 from Pontiac (something I actually welcome) and you'll lose alot of consumers to Honda and Toyota. This is why I think Saturn should stay. It can be positioned (with better brand awareness and hopefully slightly lower prices) to pick up some more of the import's stronghold on the small car market. For those who don't want to drive chevy cobalts... My suggestion, move Astra assembly to the U.S., allow them to be assembled for a lower wage (U.S. wage vs. Beligium wage), save cost by not importing, slash a couple grand off MSRP, and I'll bet the Astra would sell loads more than it does right now.

I don't think the majority are looking for ONLY dependable cars these days. Of course you want dependability in whatever choice of car you buy, but what I'm getting at, is that GM is losing more and more to the other brands because they offer good, solid small efficient cars and GM doesn't. I mean, the cobalt is a good car and all, but should it be the only good small car that GM offers? What happens if someone wants a hatchback vehicle like the VW Golf or Rabbit, or the Hyundai Accent? Well, take away the Astra, and GM may no longer be on someone's shopping list. What about sub-compacts? We all know the Aveo and G3 are jokes, so until they are replaced with soething worth a damn, we'll lose consumers shopping in the sub-compact market as well. We need the Corsa, right away. Once it gets here, where will it go to? Chevy? Are they going to have an Aveo and a Corsa? Will the Corsa not upstage the Cobalt if both were under the chevy moniker? Does the Corsa (a radically styled sub-compact) fit with Chevy's vanilla image? Will the upscale materials in the Corsa not bump people's expectations of the materials in the rest of Chevy's lineup? Things we must consider.

I work in a hospital that is primarily a children's hospital, and I see children all the time that have diseased and disfigurements all the time. It saddens me to no end, which is why I try not to leave my office too much on breaks or lunches. For me, nothing is worse than seeing a child who you know is having chemotherapy (lack of hair, pale looking, etc.) but yet is trying to have fun, laughing, playing, etc. It seems so unfair.

Good points all around. I see where many are coming from on all accounts. With that said, you all probably have guessed by now that I dearly hope GM keeps Saturn to fight the likes of VW, Mini, etc. So, my next question to all of you (and I really do want to know what everyone feels about this) is, that if GM (along with Ford and Chrysler) are in this whole pickle moreso than the imports because they failed to deliver on the need for smaller and more fuel efficient cars, where does that leave them once they axe Saturn and move Pontiac into a niche-type status? I don't see Buick offering small fuel efficient cars, and certainly, Pontiac will no longer offer re-badged small offerings. So does this mean that the one thing GM needs the most, is going to be offered solely by Chevrolet? If so, what happens if Chevy's line of cheaply-priced small cars don't appeal to those who want better quality like what's offered at VW, Toyota, Mazda and Honda? GM is going to nose-dive once again, because they need small and efficient cars more than anything else in the world right now. What I would suggest, is that you'd have Chevy's cheap and basic small cars, and as a stepup from that, you'd have Saturn's line of Opel-based products. For a bit more money, you can have better interior materials, sportier exteriors, more hybrid options (Vue/Aura), better interior materials, etc. All I see with their plan is to focus on GM's core brands, but isn't the neglect for something different what got GM in this predicament in the first place? Sure its great to have fuel-efficient V8 trucks, and Punchy V6 midsized and fullsized cars, but where's the long-awaited small car replacements that will help position GM to weather the next fuel crisis? The Cruze that will cost more than the current cobalt? Or how about the Volt that will cost more than what most middle-class families can even afford? Where is GM's answer to VW's clean-burning diesel technology? And, if they did offer it, would you find it in the likes of Pontiac's niche vehicles, or Buick's Lexus-fighting cars? Not likely. So is Chevy going to offer these types of small cars alone? What are your thoughts?

Even if Opel comes here to Buick's lineup, that's great for Buick. I'm glad that it would get great product such as that, and I'm sure it will give Buick the boost it needs to thrive. Kind of irrelevant for me though, since Buicks are out of my pricerange, so it wouldn't have as much of an impact on me as it would others.

I tend to disagree. As much as I don't want to see them go, I don't think GM will keep them anymore. I also don't think GM will be using Opel in partnership with any of the NA brands after Saturn ceases to exist. They failed to give Saturn any good marketing, and that coupled with a small-spread of dealerships is what I believe killed Saturn. I see it that way, but I doubt GM realizes their own fault in that scenario. To them, it just looks like they brought over Opels under the Saturn Moniker, and it didn't work. I believe, as well, that they won't try importing Opels under any other brand either.

I understand that Camino, but I see things differently. I know that most on this forum despise Saturn for even being created, but in their day, they offered more to the consumer than other brands, both GM and otherwise. Polymer was awesome, the s-series offered leather seating, great gas mileage, futuristic styling (at the time) and a few options like rear disc brakes, etc. that weren't even offered on other cars in their class. GM starved Saturn of R&D money and pretty much let them run themselves into the ground. Of course the brand never got to evolve, it was never given a fighting chance. To me, it had everything to do with mis-management more so than anything else. So within the last few years GM decides to pump more money in Saturn. They revitalize the entire lineup with Opel rebadges (save for the outlook), which all happen to be great, solid cars. Finally, the kind of cars that GM can be proud of. But, because GM starved Saturn's retailers for so long, their independent dealer network is small and sparse. Aside from that, you give all the advertising money to other, more developed brands, and the little bit that;s given to Saturn goes into web ads on yahoo, or 20 second TV spots advertising the whole Saturn lineup without actually saying antyhing about the cars in specific. Sorry, to me, it has always looked like they tried to have Saturn run on fumes instead of a full tank of gas. If GM, however, was able to keep Saturn going throughout its prime, it would have developed into a volume division. It would have grown into a chevrolet brand, but with more exciting cars. It's too bad really, since I've liked them from the beginning and truly appreciated what they stood for. Sure, they lost their focus, but what brand in GM didn't? Ah well, at least 90% of you on this forum are happy. You got to keep a dying and ailing Pontiac for the time being. Let's hope the rest of North America appreciates it as well, because for some reason, I don't think they will.

Well this blows...My second vehicle will be an Astra 3-door however after that and my Vue are all used up, looks like I won't be buying anything else from GM. Since small cars will be reduced to simply chevrolet, I won't be sticking around. Aside from their trucks, chevrolet is low-tier. As for the rest of GM's divisions, they are simply out of my price-range. I refuse to support GM after this crappy plan they came up with. Do people on this forum really expect Pontiac to make some miraculous comeback? Gone are the heritage days of Pontiac and Buick. I do hope Buick can somehow regain some footing, as their cars have always been great, however they are out of my pricerange anyways. Saturn's Opel-rebadges had promise. Heck, the vue I'm driving blows any of the other midsize CUV's out of the water, and I have the base XE. To not have the option of buying another Opel-based product new in North America, I have lost all confidence with GM. I am one of the consumers that wouldn't have considered a new GM vehicle save for Saturn. I love GM trucks, but aside from that, their cars have been lacking for so long, I would never trust my hard-earned money buying one new. Looks like I'll be going back to the thought of buying import again, after my Vue and future (used) Astra are finished. Good luck GM, because you just lost another consumer.

I understand where your going with that, but at the same time, killing off a brand or two would sink GM faster at this point in time, than downsizing the amount of cars in each lineup. Think of how many dealerships would sue GM for cutting their dealerships out of the fold, vs consolidating brands under dealership "umbrellas" that could potentially bring new and exciting cars to each dealer network. Up here in Canada, they already have pairings. Pontiac/Buick/GMC is one of them, Saturn/Saab is another and the list goes on. Not all dealerships are paired though (ex. some Saturn dealers are paired with Saab, and some are not). I think it would be beneficial to have 3 brands to a network so as to save GM the cost of closing a brand. If GM cannot sell Hummer due to lack of interest, bundle it in with Pontiac/Buick/GMC Likewise, think of this. If GM bundles Saturn and Saab with Cadillac, you'll now have Saturn more widely spread across the U.S. giving people more incentive to buy Saturn (one of the reasons I think people don't buy them as fast as other brands), and likewise, increase the coverage map for Saab and Cadillac through Saturn's standalone dealership network. This could all work, in theory, and save GM tons of money instead of closing down divisions and dealers. At the least, until they can afford to downsize the proper way.