surreal1272

This this this. And with GM having to knock off 20k to move Z/28's off the lots, the bean counters may think twice about making another Z/28. ( Ford had no issues moving the Boss 302's - used ones are going for a premium.) http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=358117636 Okay, so I'm going to be a liar this one time because your post is just out in deep left field here. Show us where Chevrolet is offering $20K off of a NEW no longer in production Z28. Let me help you with that. http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-z28-track-car.html As a matter of fact, here is the current offer on the Z28. "Finance 0% APR for 72 months Plus $1,000 Purchase Bonus Cash" For the record, with a current price of $72K, I am pretty sure it never was $92K and if you are referring to what Dingo said a few days ago, then you clearly were not paying attention to what he said. Now, regarding your 302 claim, I guess it's real easy to make your claim when you pick the highest priced one by a private seller (never mind the one 5,000 miles on it hence the stupid price). Now here is one from a dealer with average miles. http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=85345&endYear=2016&modelCode1=MUST&showcaseOwnerId=73009&startYear=1981&makeCode1=FORD&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&searchRadius=50&showcaseListingId=410630270&trim1=MUST%7CBoss+302&mmt=%5BFORD%5BMUST%5BMUST%257CBoss%2B302%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=412060730&Log=0

Some people can't even take a simple complement about their favorite car without a snide remark. Tsk tsk tsk.

Yes, hang your hat on the NEW GT350R beating the outgoing Z/28. It was a well deserved showing by the GT350R and it is certainly a change from the NEW GT getting beaten by the NEW SS earlier this month (by more sizable performance margin than the other two). Now, we will see what GM has in store next year. Again, it's a great time to be a fan of these cars, no matter your allegiance.

Drew, honestly, preemptively modding remarks like that is strange. Should I have qualified it as to why it would have helped? Interesting that you had no problem with his modding when you first came here.

Again, as Drew has told you at least hundred times now, Cadillac has a V8 option and a twin turbo V8 on the way. Just drop the misinformation you keep slinging.

Cadillac offers a V8 in the mid-size CTS-V for the low 90s. MB only offers a V8 in the mid size E-Class when you fork over $100K for the privilege. Not sure what you are trying to prove here based on that simple fact. Unless you get an E550 coupe or convertible which are $60-65k with a V8. I am not saying the V8 cars are value, but that other luxury makers offer them. Luxury brands are supposed to offer the best and supposed to offer excess. CT6 has no V8 when that the common engine for the large sedan segment. A turbo V6 is plenty for most, but I still think luxury and sports cars need that aspirational product too. You don't see a turbo 4 or turbo v6 in a Corvette, even though it would make for adequate performance, because they know buyers want the most power they can get and will pay a premium for it. I mentioned the V8 about the Continental. The MKZ is bigger than an E-class or 5-series, the same length as an Infiniti Q70. The Continental will be as big as an LS460, K900, Genesis/Equus/G90 and those are V8 cars. Oncblu is 100% right about the primary Focus. You know it is coming eventually. A Lincoln Explorer would have higher margins so they'll do that first. Until this generation, the CTS-V was offered in a coupe as well so you are not making a very good case here. Again, you expose your bias when you expect companies, such as Lincoln and Cadillac, to sell something for dirt cheap (on top of that) that your own favorite brand doesn't even come close to doing. Stop bringing trucks into this. Good lord, you love beating a dead horse. If you don't understand why their are not turbo V6s in GM's full size trucks (especially when their V8s do it better for less most of the time), then you have not been paying attention at all to the market.

Cadillac offers a V8 in the mid-size CTS-V for the low 90s. MB only offers a V8 in the mid size E-Class when you fork over $100K for the privilege. Not sure what you are trying to prove here based on that simple fact.

So now there is a distinction because there wasn't one, according to you, back on page 2? "production vs availability is pretty much semantics in my book." (your exact words) Because the mods asked us not to bicker, I will not go into detail, but obviously it has to do with each context of each discussion -- which you cherry picked each from. Now, about the comparison. How do you think each manufacturer will up their game in the next rounds? Nothing was cherry picked. It was a direct correlation, but I digress. Again, this win did not surprise me. Ford went all out on the GT350R and it shows. Now, next year we will see what GM has up it's sleeve, since it has already been caught testing the next possible ZL1/Z28 (depending on which source you want to use). It's a great time to be a fan of these cars.

So now there is a distinction because there wasn't one, according to you, back on page 2? "production vs availability is pretty much semantics in my book." (your exact words)

It is amusing that some think that GM doesn't have any other options in the high performance engine game. So yeah, very little exotic about the FP 5.2L, other than the FP crank. As has been said over and over. And no, I never said GM never had other options, now did I. I wonder who the people are that think GM doesn't have any other HiPo options in the engine game? It's amusing one would even post that some think that. well, when you don't implicate or name anyone, it sure is easy to make statement like that. Edited because I went too far and can admit it. Sorry Drew.

It is amusing that some think that GM doesn't have any other options in the high performance engine game. So yeah, very little exotic about the FP 5.2L, other than the FP crank. As has been said over and over. And no, I never said GM never had other options, now did I. I wonder who the people are that think GM doesn't have any other HiPo options in the engine game? It's amusing one would even post that some think that. What is a "wonder" is the fact that you seem to think I owe you anymore more explanations about anything ever Cosworth of MT. You have to ask why, then you have not been paying attention. Let's remove the extra "more" shall we (too late to edit apparently)? And let me revise the last sentence. "If you have to ask why, then you have not been paying attention."

It is amusing that some think that GM doesn't have any other options in the high performance engine game. So yeah, very little exotic about the FP 5.2L, other than the FP crank. As has been said over and over. And no, I never said GM never had other options, now did I. I wonder who the people are that think GM doesn't have any other HiPo options in the engine game? It's amusing one would even post that some think that. What is a "wonder" is the fact that you seem to think I owe you anymore more explanations about anything ever Cosworth of MT. You have to ask why, then you have not been paying attention.

It is amusing that some think that GM doesn't have any other options in the high performance engine game. So yeah, very little exotic about the FP 5.2L, other than the FP crank. As has been said over and over. And no, I never said GM never had other options, now did I. Did I mention you by name? Nope. Sure didn't.

So there really isn't anything "exotic" (your word) or special about the 5.2L despite the endless PR hype brought on here? Thanks for clarifying that. Oh, my mistake. It does make a pretty noise so maybe that is what's special about it and that's it. It is amusing that some think that GM doesn't have any other options in the high performance engine game.

While you try to focus on his obvious over-statement (no one has ever said the Z28s steering felt numb, including Pobst himself.). His statements from the last Z28 retest via MT. Pay special attention to the last two words at the bottom. Remember. These are straight from the mouth of Randy Pobst. “Oh my God, you fixed it!” came the voice. “This is so much better. It’s back. This is how it should perform. We were so right to name this car Best Driver’s Car.” "“It’s funny — it was loose and sucky last time,” he said. “Now, it’s so hooked up. It’s back to the car we chose for Best Driver’s Car. It is so well-balanced and hooked up. It’s predictable. What a pleasure to drive. I could just attack Turn 8, I was in the power way in there, forget about the brakes. It just felt so fast. It handles so well. The grip is so high. It’s the car we love again. Last time, it was loose. It wouldn’t put power down. It was just kind of nervous. This time, it was just so fantastic in every way. It was balanced all the way around Turn 2 sweeper, maybe just a wee bit of understeer. At the end of the corner, I could just roll into the power, drive right off that corner. I kept getting on the power sooner and sooner and sooner. I’m pissed I can’t go faster, ’cause I think the tires just don’t have it in ’em. After a couple laps, they’re just not as good as they are when they’re fresh. The car is so well-balanced. The car is nicely behaved on bumps. Over the jump over here — no problem. I was shifting right in the air, and when it landed, it just hooked and kept going. It was just an absolute pleasure. It’s one of the best-handling factory cars I’ve ever driven. I wouldn’t change the car a lick if I was going to go racing right now. I would leave it exactly as it is. I would just tie the crew’s hands up, like ‘Don’t you touch this car!’ It’s perfect.”" So next time, you might want to remember that before you try to hang certain statements on one person who has driven both cars rather extensively, especially when you totally miss the context by which these things are spoken. Those last few words, they were before Randy drove the R, right! Refer to what others have said when publications declare a winner in a comparo and why they really don't mean much, case and point, the same driver who stated perfection on the Z/28 a year ago, now says the steering is "numb" when that term has NEVER been used to described the best drivers car from last year. Just think about it for more than a minute before you and your buddy hang your hat on the "numb steering" statement. The funniest part of this is that you are hanging your hat on the words of a man who has been less than complimentary towards past Mustang variants (that you and other Ford fans promptly criticized) but now that he is being less than stellar towards the Z/28, you are all about some Randy Pobst. Just very interesting how that perspective suddenly changes when it favors your brand.

While you try to focus on his obvious over-statement (no one has ever said the Z28s steering felt numb, including Pobst himself.). His statements from the last Z28 retest via MT. Pay special attention to the last two words at the bottom. Remember. These are straight from the mouth of Randy Pobst. “Oh my God, you fixed it!” came the voice. “This is so much better. It’s back. This is how it should perform. We were so right to name this car Best Driver’s Car.” "“It’s funny — it was loose and sucky last time,” he said. “Now, it’s so hooked up. It’s back to the car we chose for Best Driver’s Car. It is so well-balanced and hooked up. It’s predictable. What a pleasure to drive. I could just attack Turn 8, I was in the power way in there, forget about the brakes. It just felt so fast. It handles so well. The grip is so high. It’s the car we love again. Last time, it was loose. It wouldn’t put power down. It was just kind of nervous. This time, it was just so fantastic in every way. It was balanced all the way around Turn 2 sweeper, maybe just a wee bit of understeer. At the end of the corner, I could just roll into the power, drive right off that corner. I kept getting on the power sooner and sooner and sooner. I’m pissed I can’t go faster, ’cause I think the tires just don’t have it in ’em. After a couple laps, they’re just not as good as they are when they’re fresh. The car is so well-balanced. The car is nicely behaved on bumps. Over the jump over here — no problem. I was shifting right in the air, and when it landed, it just hooked and kept going. It was just an absolute pleasure. It’s one of the best-handling factory cars I’ve ever driven. I wouldn’t change the car a lick if I was going to go racing right now. I would leave it exactly as it is. I would just tie the crew’s hands up, like ‘Don’t you touch this car!’ It’s perfect.”" So next time, you might want to remember that before you try to hang certain statements on one person who has driven both cars rather extensively, especially when you totally miss the context by which these things are spoken.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered.Again, it is answered. Teach yourself.Now, about the video (instead of the poster)... Ah. That video. Which has a 66k car beating a 76k car.Odd you now play the " make it about the post, not poster " when you made it about yourself when you brought into this " what YOU'D buy ". Your lack of context and comprehension is evident and not my problem because you want to pick and choose what part of the conversation to make your argument. Now about the video... Your comment was easy to comprehend. Now it's the old classic " do as I say, not do ". As in I threw your logic back in your face and now you flop around like a fish outa water. No sir Mr. Bill. It is the classic "you are reading only what you want to read instead of reading it in its full context with all parties involved". What you can't comprehend is the fact that I have not once that I even preferred the Z28, not once. You assumed I did hence your silly price difference statement using the Z28 as the negative. In case you missed it a month or so ago, I had already stated that, A. The GT350R is the best Mustang by a country mile. And B. That the GT350R will beat the Z28. I can't make it any clearer for you why your initial question was 100% irrelevant from the get go.

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered.Again, it is answered. Teach yourself.Now, about the video (instead of the poster)... Ah. That video. Which has a 66k car beating a 76k car.Odd you now play the " make it about the post, not poster " when you made it about yourself when you brought into this " what YOU'D buy ". Your lack of context and comprehension is evident and not my problem because you want to pick and choose what part of the conversation to make your argument. Now about the video...

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it. I did read what you said. And I'm using what you said as the basis for my question, which is still unanswered. Again, it is answered. Teach yourself. Now, about the video (instead of the poster)...

Again, for the last time, read what I actually said instead of what you think I said Cosworth. The answer is in there. I'm not going to walk you through it.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"? Seriously? A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford. And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less. That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car? Why would someone pay 13% more ( MSRP per video ) for a Z/28 that doesn't perform as well as a track car, street car and drag car ( not intended function ) compared to the GT350R? Since you just jumped in without reading the follow up to that reply, I will just that maybe you should read what I said afterwards to Wings. Let me help you out so it doesn't take up too much of your valuable time. And I quote, "BTW, I have never said that I would prefer a Z/28 over any other variant of the Camaro so why you think it is relevant, I do not know. I do know this, I would not by a Z/28 over a SS1LE, just the same as I would not buy a GT350R over a stock GT350 for the same reasons that you just perfectly illustrated. The difference between me and you on this is that you have no problem with the performance to dollar ratio gap going on here but you would only do it for one car as opposed to either car as I do." BTW, if you think that the GT350R is actually going to sell for MSRP, as opposed to the obvious $10K minimum mark up that will occur, then I have some wonderful oceanfront property in Montana to sell you. I could care less what YOU would buy. You said " if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car? " Using your line of questioning, I'll ask again, why would someone purchase a 13% more expensive Z/28 over a GT350R that performs better on the street, track and strip while costing less? Which was based of off Wings own "guesstimation", which was "What I love about the Ford, is that you can get ~95% of the track capability and all of that glorious looks and sounds and attitude for a faction of the price of the R" and "A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford. And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less." Maybe you missed the source of this "formula". And you you do care or you would have not bothered to respond. Again, BOTH the Z/28 and GT350R are overpriced in respect to the next step down variants of BOTH cars. I am really not sure what you are having a problem with here other than to try and attack me.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"? Seriously? A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford. And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less. That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car? Why would someone pay 13% more ( MSRP per video ) for a Z/28 that doesn't perform as well as a track car, street car and drag car ( not intended function ) compared to the GT350R? Since you just jumped in without reading the follow up to that reply, I will just that maybe you should read what I said afterwards to Wings. Let me help you out so it doesn't take up too much of your valuable time. And I quote, "BTW, I have never said that I would prefer a Z/28 over any other variant of the Camaro so why you think it is relevant, I do not know. I do know this, I would not by a Z/28 over a SS1LE, just the same as I would not buy a GT350R over a stock GT350 for the same reasons that you just perfectly illustrated. The difference between me and you on this is that you have no problem with the performance to dollar ratio gap going on here but you would only do it for one car as opposed to either car as I do." BTW, if you think that the GT350R is actually going to sell for MSRP, as opposed to the obvious $10K minimum mark up that will occur, then I have some wonderful oceanfront property in Montana to sell you.

You really don't have a clue what I was getting at and with thirty years of Ford looking after ford first and Lincoln second, history is more on my side than you realize. Maybe the D6 platform with change that pattern but, as I just said, thirty years of these kind of promises by Ford on making Lincoln a real player through true innovation, tempers my enthusiasm just a slight. Sorry if you don't understand me not looking at everything through rose colored glasses on your favorite brand.

And what Ford has 95% of that for a "fraction of the price"? Seriously? A $49K GT350 instead of a decked out GT350R costing over $66K is which Ford. And the fraction is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 less. That's what I thought you would say. Now, having said that, if it has 95% of what the GT350R has then why would anyone pay 1/4 to 1/3 more for 1/20 more of a car? I thought that's what you were doing. Price of admission for the features needed to close that gap, that's why. Z does it as well. But Imaging paying far more yet for the Z on top of that R. So 1/20th more performance for 1/4th to 1/3rd more in price. That's all I needed to know. BTW, I have never said that I would prefer a Z/28 over any other variant of the Camaro so why you think it is relevant, I do not know. I do know this, I would not by a Z/28 over a SS1LE, just the same as I would not buy a GT350R over a stock GT350 for the same reasons that you just perfectly illustrated. The difference between me and you on this is that you have no problem with the performance to dollar ratio gap going on here but you would only do it for one car as opposed to either car as I do.

I see what you are getting at but it does have it's benefits. I just don't think it is as bad as you are saying. I can accept that you do have far more insight on this than me though.