Hudson

The V12 was related to the V16.

Saab and Ford actually did try it. The Saab V4 that was mentioned earlier is a Ford engine. Ford had a program called Cardinal which was designed to be a FWD V4-powered compact car in the era of the Corvair and Beetle. Ford's 60-degree V4 (which required a balance shaft) was to be transversely mounted in the front of this little car. While the Cardinal didn't make production in the US, it was produced as the Ford Taunus in Germany from 1962 until 1970. The next generation of the car used an inline four instead and the V4 became the Cologne V6 now found in the Explorer/Mountaineer and Mustang.Saab used the V4 in a longitudinal setup in a few models. It was replaced by the 99 which used a conventional inline four cylinder engine (mounted longitudinally "behind" the transaxle).

Yeah...sure. Leave and let me take the brunt of it! I know you meant to do that! Can I win one? Please!??!LaSalle did not. I can find no reference to a LaSalle V12.

The largest (by displacement, not necessarily external size) transverse-mounted inline-4 is about 2.6L...but there are inline-5 and inline-6 engines as well.And I blame Volkswagen's engineers, not the VR design, for its relative inefficiency.

Revised list. Since about 1930 (names are my names based on the information I've found): Buick has had five engine families: Straight Eight, Nailhead V8, "Aluminum V8" (which includes the iron block V6), Small V8, and Large V8 Cadillac has had nine engine families: Type 51, Series 341, Monobloc, OHV, OHV-2, HT, Premium V, Series 452, and Series 90 Chevrolet has had 13 engine families (although I'm trying to track down the Chevette's origins): 171, 153, Vega 2.3, OHV Four, 60-degree, Straight Six-1, Straight Six-2, Stovebolt, Flat Six, Small Block, Big Block-1, Big Block-2, and (by majority rule) LS V8. GMC has had two engine families: Straight Six and V6 LaSalle has had one engine family: Eight Oldsmobile has had four engine families: Quad 4, straight six (shared with GMC), straight eight, and V8 Pontiac has had six engine families: Iron Duke, Split Head, Flat Head Six, Straight Six, Eight, and V8 Saturn has had one engine family: 1.9L Corporate engine families include: Ecotec, Atlas, and High Feature Detroit Diesel added one: 6.2/6.5 DMAX added one: Duramax Lotus added one: LT5 That's 48 engine families since about 1932ish. This does not include Saab, Opel, and Vauxhall engine families nor any of the Asian engines that were built with GM, for GM, or while GM owned part/all of an Asian manufacturer. This list does not include any engines designed only for medium- or heavy-duty trucks or off-highway engines.

I'd love to see a similar thread on platforms...and see what you thought there.

Yes...but not necessarily this particular one. Since "marketing" can be given as a reason why the "old" engines and the LS engine share bore centers, can't marketing be the reason why GM would claim it was all-new?I've stopped arguing my point a long time ago, but you guys seem to want to change my mind. Can we move onto other bones of contention that we might be able to debate...and potentially change one another's mind?

Aside from your previous "wrong wheel drive" and V6 comment, I agree.

My sources work with GM to produce many parts, including powertrain parts. This isn't just some guy I like.

Related engines. And people I trust to know such things have connected the LS engines with the previous small-block Chevy engines.Engines do not have to share cylinder displacement to be in the same family...or even bore or stroke, but they do have to share basic designs and (sometimes) have the ability to be built on the same production lines. You won't see many inline engines in the same families with Vee engines (unless they're based on single banks....a four-cylinder based on a V8, for example). You won't see many Vee engines of different bank angles sharing a single family. L-head, OHC or OHV does not necessarily define a family (same with valves per cylinder).

Perhaps 76ChevyTrucker should. I'm just following the definition as I have learned it through the industry.

The harmonic balance for a four-cylinder engine is 180 degrees. The layout you described is used in Subarus, where they have a flat (180-degree V) four in a longitudinal layout. Any other angle and the engine will require additional balancing. There are very few longitudinal FWD cars using four-cylinder engines. Most manufacturers have found the benefits of transverse mounting in such designs, and inline engines make the packaging more compact than a V4 would.

From what I found, Oldsmobile had three over this time frame. We agree on the Quad 4 and the Straight Eight ("257") and the V8 (260, 307, etc). I can't vouch for the Straight Six family, and you might be right. But the information I found put the early Oldsmobile V8 and the early OHV Cadillac V8 in the same family.

Northstar's probably right. A V4 would make the engine wider and most small (REALLY SMALL) cars don't have much room between the firewall and the radiator. Inline engines fit better.

That's why. First part....the Indy 4 is based on the 389cid V8...already covered. Second part... In this case....ABOUT 1932. Please see above. Because there are LOTS of them. The topic was families, not specific engines. "Series 90" was what one source called the second generation V16 engine family...I said I made up some of the names based on the information I found. Yes, I'd like to list all of them. I said that I wish I could post the Excel file I created, but I had to shorten it. So the media's right when it fits your argument? You believe that the LS family is new...I don't. Move on. I'm not "omitting the HD engines." I just started my search and worked back to "about 1930" looking at just light-duty North American engines. There's more work to be done. Sigh.

It's not "apples and oranges"...but we'll agree to disagree on this one.Anything else from the list we can debate?

Because they do share some dimensions...bore centers for one.

They're not entirely ground up engines. They are a radical revamp of the small block, though.

I was told by people I consider to be experts on Pontiac engines. I'm being accused of "a degree of purposeful... minimizing" and yet you're describing one engine based on another but stating that it is its own family? One engine heavily based on the design of another (like the 215 and the 90-degree V6) puts the two into the same family. Yes, I missed the Corvair engine. And the 90-degree V6s (3.8L and 4.3L) are based on the small block family; they're not stand alone engine families. Absolutely nothing. I was counting backwards from the present day and I only went back as far as 1955 when the last straight-eights were built. Absolutely not. What would I have to gain? I'm just going on the various sources that I have access to in order to put these engines into families of related engines. If I were trying to go out of my way to "minimize" the list, I would have combined the Cadillac/Oldsmobile OHV V8 and the Chevrolet Small Block since Ed Cole designed the Chevrolet engines based on Cadillac/Oldsmobile design....they share only a basic origin but no parts.As you folks have pointed out, we have a difference of opinion here. My definition of "family" falls into the same industry-wide definitional groups like "platform." Sure, you can change a lot, but as long as it's evolutionary (not a ground up redesign) it's still part of the same family. From talking to experts, I've come up with a list. I wish I could post the Excel file of it, but I'll have to summarize it. Since about 1930 (names are my names based on the information I've found): Buick has had five engine families: Straight Eight, Nailhead V8, "Aluminum V8" (which includes the iron block V6), Small V8, and Large V8 Cadillac has had nine engine families: Type 51, Series 341, Monobloc, OHV, OHV-2, HT, Premium V, Series 452, and Series 90 Chevrolet has had 13 engine families (although I'm trying to track down the Chevette's origins): 171, 153, Vega 2.3, OHV Four, 60-degree, Straight Six-1, Straight Six-2, Stovebolt, Flat Six, Small Block, Big Block-1, and Big Block-2 GMC has had two engine families: Straight Six and V6 LaSalle has had one engine family: Eight Oldsmobile has had three engine families: Quad 4, 257, and V8 Pontiac has had six engine families: Iron Duke, Split Head, Flat Head Six, Straight Six, Eight, and V8 Saturn has had one engine family: 1.9L Corporate engine families include: Ecotec, Atlas, and High Feature Detroit Diesel added one: 6.2/6.5 DMAX added one: Duramax Lotus added one: LT5 That's 46 engine families since about 1930. This does not include Saab, Opel, and Vauxhall engine families nor any of the Asian engines that were built with GM, for GM, or while GM owned part/all of an Asian manufacturer. This does not include any engines designed only for medium- or heavy-duty trucks or off-highway engines.

Two questions. First, why are the #1 and #3 small blocks different? Second, what makes the 8.1L not related to the 454?

Chevrolet's 1955 small block can trace its ascendents to the current crop of small-block V8s (and the 4.3L V6). I know most of you want to break the family up into generations, but it's the same family. Like the earlier Washington's ax reference, many of the parts may have been changed, but the history still goes back to the original. Can anyone define multiple (I'm guessing two) Chevrolet big block families? The 8.1L is from the same family as the 454cid V8, but are they both related to the 409? Chevrolet has atleast seven engine families since 1955. Big block (assuming it's only one family), small block, 60-degree V6, OHV four, Atlas (I'm giving this to Chevrolet even though it's corporate), inline OHV six, and the Chevette's four (wasn't this designed by Opel or some other branch of GM?). Any that I'm missing? If not, that's six. Cadillac has had Northstar, HT (4.1, 4.5, 4.9), big block OHV V8 (is this ONE from the 1950s through the 425cid of the 1980s?). I'm sure there's one I'm missing, but that's three. I was told that Pontiac's V8s were all one family. Then there's the Iron Duke four, the OHC six, and the Brazilian OHC four. Any more? If not, that's four. Buick had three (?) V8 families including the aluminum engine sold to Rover. The V6 was based on one of those V8 families. Just the three? Oldsmobile had two (?) V8 families and the Quad Four family. Again just three? GMC had atleast one dedicated engine family in light-duty use. Saturn had the Lost Foam 1.9L. GM has had the corporate Ecotec four, High-Feature V6, the Lotus LT5 V8, the 6.2/6.5L diesel, and the Duramax diesel. Only counting those, GMNA has had only 27 engine families since the demise of the straight-eight. This is not counting engines produced by Isuzu (diesels and imported vehicles) or Opel (Catera and imported vehicles).

Oakland launched Pontiac as a sister brand. Pontiac became so popular that it overtook, and replaced, Oakland. Oakland began as Pontiac (Buggy Company) and Pontiac (Motor Division) emerged from Oakland.

What are P pillars? The Mercedes-Benz CL63 has a twin-turbo V12 engine, no B-pillar, and is quite quick...but I don't know its rear-end gear ratio. The Mercedes-Benz SL63 fits the same criteria, although it's a convertible and not a coupe.

They most certainly were the same division.

But how many families is that? I was always told that all Pontiac V8s (I had never seen anything on a 1917 Oakland V8) after World War II were from the same family.