evok

No, I responded to stop your disinformation.

Come on Satty, you gotta keep us honest. :P

No

trevormac98: What don't you understand. No, it is not an Americanized Holden for the US market. No, the prototypes do not need to be federalized to be tested in the US. No, it is not the GTO. and, No the extensive plans to bring zeta to the US were officially cancelled last winter and ... lets just say GM has other plans for ... One last thing, lets just say there are a few on the board if you are not familiar with us, who are not exactly interns in the auto industry.

NO

No, you are wrong on all counts.

It ain't pretty down there. Here are some satelite photos before and after photos. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/fac...ans-imagery.htm

http://img76.echo.cx/my.php?image=vecomm9pj.jpg http://img147.echo.cx/my.php?image=comm063iu.jpg This is what appears to be underneath.

Yup :rolleyes:

I have not confirmed that this photo is legit. But, my educated guess is that the photo was snapped with a camera phone at design much the same as the 900 Tahoe was taken. Compare the Tahoe photo and this one to see what I mean. The photo appears to be an early foam fulsize model. The photo is not the Lambda, 361 but appears to be the Theta.

The NAIAS will always be "THE SHOW". Moving "THE SHOW" to LA would be like moving the Academy Awards to the Cobo in Detroit. The Automakers will continue to release vehicles at the shows they think are important for the product. I just think the LA retime cadences the shows better.

I don't think it will be an issue. LA will get the same vehicles that they would otherwise get. I do think it will help Detroit because it will free up vehicles that were previously released at LA and because of the overlap and lack of availibility were not at Detroit. How many times have the two of us been at Detroit and were looking for vehicles that were released the previous week at LA and the vehicles were not at the Detroit show? That was the case with the HHR this year. Or do you remember years ago the Old Profile concept was at LA when we were there but not at Detroit the following week.

Lets put this into perspective. The RT DCX minvans vans are due out in 07. Let think of this along the lines of the Porsche and VW SUV's than badge engineering.

You earn my respect, because you understand that. Sloan as great as he was in fixing the disaster Durant created called GM at the time could never have created the disaster he fixed in the first place.

Josh I keep forgeting to tell you about Bill Durant. He was fired from GM twice. Ended up working at a bowling alley. And died broke. Might I suggest Alfred P. Sloan II http://www.classiccar.com/articles/william_durant.asp :P

You just couldn't resist could you?

Only the Lambda is for certain, everything else is speculation or in the case of the Lacrosse replacement subject to change at this time.

Lets get the Hummer thread going. Since I just found out PM elluded to the program with a simple drawing here is what they are refering to. The programs is the 2009 GMT-913. Here it is. The "current" SUT cab on the 900 2500 frame using a "stock" GMT 900 bed. No major styling changes to the current design. I am told with little modification the cab will bolt to the 900 frame. This will be an added product to the current Hummer portfolio. This will be a quad cab pick up. PM has it a little wrong but you get the idea from the Jim Dunn rendering. It appears Hummer is going into the premium PU market. I elluded to this program before the boards collapsed but I see PM posted a hint and I will give some details. PM's drawing does not reflect the 900 box. I did hear that the program might not make it to production but I believe that decision is still up in the air. Projected volume is about 12,000 priced upward of $50k. For now here it is. http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive...ts/1747702.html

Isn't this what the dicsussion is about, that Honda and Toyota in good faith certified their engines to the new SAE spec? That is not distorting the facts but the industry through SAE developing a common standard. That should be applauded.

I do not have my development plans for Hyundai with me at home but that looks like it should be out on the market within the next year. Wow, that looks good, in and out.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/autoweekend...13912-8358r.htm 'Horsepower' has proved to be elusive to measure By Les Jackson SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES The subject of horsepower has recently appeared in a number of publications. Some stories state that many manufacturers are inflating — or otherwise misrepresenting — the horsepower ratings of their cars, a confusing issue that deserves a major explanation. To do that, we need to define "horsepower." Unfortunately, how it is defined depends upon who is doing the defining. James Watt is to blame here. Watt, you might remember, was the father of the steam engine and the originator of the term "horsepower." He created the term in his first attempts to persuade mine owners to substitute his steam engines for horses in hoisting coal. A horse, it was known, could work at the rate of 22,000 foot-pounds per minute but Watt arbitrarily made the unit of horsepower half again as much as the average horse — shrewd marketer that he was. Unfortunately, no one ever corrected his standard. In the United States, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has, since 1903, defined 1 horsepower as the ability to lift 33,000 pounds 1 foot in 1 minute, or 550 pounds 1 foot in 1 second.

Jaguar Plays Fast and Loose With Horsepower by Eric Mayne and Bill Visnic WardsAuto.com, Apr 5 2002 DETROIT – Horsepower sells sports cars and Jaguar North America appears to be playing fast and loose with how it markets its numbers. For its all-new S-Type R, Jaguar is reporting the 400-hp figure derived from a European rating system not commonly quoted by other auto makers for U.S.-market vehicles. If the company used the same Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) net horsepower rating used by almost all auto makers selling vehicles in the U.S., the number would be a far-less sexy 388 hp. 2003 Jaguar S-Type R The lower figure doesn’t pack the same wallop against main competitor BMW AG, and likely wouldn’t have the same marketing power – at least one automotive enthusiast magazine’s cover proclaims that S-Type R is packing 400 hp. Why not reveal the 400-hp rating comes from a Deutsche Institut fur Normung (DIN) yardstick, instead of the more widely used SAE test? "We’re not obliged to," a Jaguar spokesman tells Ward's, adding the practice will continue. "In Europe there are EEC (European Economic Commission) directives which cover the test method for engine power and these tests are witnessed by a government agency. In the U.K., this is the Vehicle Certification Authority," the spokesman says. "The SAE number used in the U.S.A. is to a different test procedure and correction standards and is only run by the manufacturers and not witnessed by any agency." But the matter of who witnesses the test hardly is the issue. The DIN test derives a peak horsepower rating from a set of specific power correction standards that takes into account ambient temperature and pressure – both of which directly affect how much power an engine can produce. The DIN power correction standards allow an engine to generate a peak horsepower figure that is higher than the same engine would produce under SAE test procedures. Because the SAE procedure is the one commonly accepted in the U.S., almost all manufacturers selling vehicles in the U.S. report their horsepower rating based on the SAE test. In preparation for $63,000 S-Type R’s debut next month, Jaguar has distributed vehicle specifications to the North American media. This has contributed to widespread reporting of the 400-hp rating without any proviso. All material seen by Ward's cites a 400-hp output – with no mention of DIN, though some press kits that make the distinction apparently exist. Ward's also has learned that all of Jaguar models’ quoted horsepower figures in the U.S. are based on the DIN test. Similarly, some S-Type R consumer brochures in North America fail to make mention of the less-familiar German scale when bragging about the 400-hp rating, Ward's is told. This gives S-Type R, with its supercharged 4.2L DOHC V-8, a significant advantage. But Jaguar’s prime competitors – BMW of North America and Mercedes-Benz USA – will not compromise. "You’ll never see us, in this market, claim that the M5 is 400," a BMW spokesman says. "Obviously, it would work well for us to be able to say that (M5 is) 400 hp in this market rather than the somewhat more complicated and perhaps less attractive-looking number of 394. "The same is true for our X5 4.6is," BMW adds. "I believe that was 347 DIN, which would have put it just a shade higher than Cadillac Escalade, which I think is 345." Using this logic, BMW could have claimed Escalade’s title of most powerful SUV on the market. Similarly, Mercedes-Benz champions high-performance models such as the E-Class E55 AMG in line with its SAE net rating of 349. And that won’t change, a spokesman says, because the SAE standard is coin of the realm. Will Jaguar’s sin of omission affect the way S-Type R competes in the market? Probably not, says Mike Wall, auto analyst with IRN Inc. Ultimately, sales will be made from behind the wheel. "Zero-to-60 is either 5 seconds or 6 seconds or it’s not," he says. It’s actually 5.3, Jaguar claims. Wall expresses surprise at Jaguar’s approach, given the black eye its corporate parent – Ford Motor Co. – received some years ago when its Mustang Cobra failed to live up to horsepower claims. "I would think you wouldn’t want to do that kind of, I don’t know if you want to call it shenanigans, but it’s not exactly straightforward." A Ford spokesman says it has a broad-strokes policy governing engine testing, but because the auto maker is a global operation, variations occur from brand to brand. [email protected]

You just made no sense. If two engines are certified to SAE J1349, than you would be comparing apples to apples and they would both have 100% of the claimed HP according to that spec. That was the whole purpose of the new certification so that all manufacturers are claiming 100%. There is more to this than just the test. I believe without knowing the specifics there are state laws and even possibly federal commerce laws with regard to what the claimed HP rating are and variability. I know at one time the EU had requirements on variability as well.

Let me clairify what I did not know. I am not certain about the specific ambiquities that were rectified in the SAE J1349 specification. I have not read the actual test proceedure but I am familiar with the issue. But I am well versed in how standards are developed. My comments on this subject are to be fair and point the realities of what this new certification means. This certification in the end just means that all engines certified to SAE J1349 will be conducted in a more consistent manner. Less room for interpretation. SAE does not work in a vacuum. Commitee members represent the manufacturers. Therefore Toyota, Honda, GM, DCX, etc all agreed that there was inconsistency and agreed on a new test procedure. Most likely and I am speculating, the Commitee agreed on a proposal by GM based up the results of the certified engines. The article that drove this thread was biased. Posting opinions such as fraud, deceit, etc are not true and show the same ill informed biase as in the article. If that were the case than this standard would not have been rectified. Any company that has signed onto the standard is showing themselves to be honest and upfront.

You just have no idea what you are talking about on this subject.