evok

Things change. Information gets old very fast in this business.

So I take it you never have been to Detroit? I used to live in Flint, it is not Beverly Hills. Rent Moores Roger and Me if you want an idea. I have actually been in Autoworld with The O.C. for a car show.

Both of you. That was not my point and you know it! :P

De Lorenzo

I have met Mr. Moore a couple of times and have spoken to him. I would not call that meeting a celebrity either.

Well there is an old saying in MI. If Detroit is the a$$ hole of the country, Flint is 60 mile up in it.

How long before Michael Moore announces his next new movie?

There is no doubt in my mind that cities like Flint, MI are done for if DPH gets the reduced labor rate and if forced to cuts the retirement health care and pensions. Flint has four demographics at large today. 1) The already unemployeed and poor. If I trust Michael Moors number that is about 12% 2) GM/DPH union workers 3) GM/DPH retirees 4) Healthcare Industry And the healthcare industry prospers there because of the lucrative GM/DPH healthcare. In MI, on the I75 corridor, North of Clarkston would be decimated under the worst case senario.

:)

History has shown that businesses and industries come and go or alter to change with the economic environment. The economy is cyclical and wealth over time get redistributed geographically and amongst the population. This has proven true in farming, steel, airlines etc. The comments by The O.C. were accurate and reflect the changing economic environment. GM for instance 40 years ago made app. 1 billion dollars a year, had a market capitalization of app. 15 billion and employees app. 300,000 people in the US. GM today empoyees half of what they used to and there value and profits are about the same. The US economy as a whole has diversified and the auto industry is not the driving power it once was in the US economy. The auto industry is in a deflatonary environment but is in a fixed cost structure that does not reflect that reality. The DPH Chapter 11 filing may be the equivalent to Katrina hitting the Gulf Coast to the automotive pockets of the mid-west. What the eventual implications are know one know. But one certainty is, their labor rate will go down. I will repeat myself again and state that the supplier labor rate in the US factoring out DPH and Visteon is in the 10-15 dollar/hr range. There is no reason why DPH employees should be making 30/hr when that is not the industry standard. Lives will be affected. There is no doubt about that. But these workers have been paid a tremendous amount of money beyond what the going rate is. The simple fact is they are over paid and will have to adjust to their new economic realities.

Grow up! This is a non-issue. I know.

Your only common thread in your discussions is self pity and uninformed opinion. I have found this very amusing: "Gee thats funny, Im one of the few here that has pointed out all the problems and stuck to the idea of fixing the entire problem." Yes, you have all of the answers! I am going to say it straight out, you are an ignorant fool if you honestly believe what you write. Yes, we are all entitled to our opinions, but let history and facts be our guide. Life is rough and we only have ourselves to blame if things do not go as planned. This is my last response to your mis guided opinion. There are others on this board that I may not agree with, but I will give them a nod for their efforts in being rational.

Sonic: A strike is the wrong move. Though I agree DPH could shut down much of the industry, within 6-12 months the tooling which is owned for the most part by the OEM would be moved and re PPAPed elsewhere. I think you are jumping the gun on the pensions. Though in the end I believe pensions will be reduced by a small percentage, healther care is the issue that will take center stage. The retirees will have to pick up a more realistic burden. All will not be lost unless there is a strike.

Could you post a link to the agreement?

Great post. I would like to add two root causes that IMO forever changed the face of the industry and the companies for many reasons never recovered from. All of which lead to the key points you mentioned. #1: Ralph Nader #2: The first oil crisis All the government regulations and the switch to fwd with new powertrains, unibody switchover caused it all to go to hell. You can't expect this industry to turn on a dime without serious repercussions. Quality and styling suffered as we are well aware. And the Japanese with the right product at the right time just walked it. Remember there was not a market for small cars prior to the oil embargo and there was no need for the Big 3 to product such a car.

Could not have said it any better myself.

Don't wrap me up into you little tirade over the past week. If you actually have been reading my posts you would see that I am just pointing out the realities of today's automotive environment. My suggestion to you is get over it. DPH has filed Chapter 11. Wages will drop to the levels that are harmonized with the rest of the auto supplier industry.

Ha ha ha - So true. They were an odd bunch. But I give them a lot of credit. GM still could learn a lot from there old Saturn org.

With compassion to your situation and potential fall out for DPH I would just like to put some facts on the table. Out of the 24,000 UAW worker affected: 19,500 have seniority prior to May 28, 1999. Most likely these workers have enough seniority to retire if their demographics are like the rest of GM's union workforce. These workers average age is probably in the mid 50's with 25+ service with GM/DPH.

If Delphi were to be shut down for a period close to the 1998 walkout and subsequently shut down GM. It would be over. All hell would break loose and what the outcome would be is any bodies guess. The ramification would not be pretty for labor. That I can assure you.

That is the point of all this, there is no future unless fixed costs are equalized. Supplier line jobs are not worth any more than 10 - 15 bucks an hour. Other Tier 1 US suppiers do not pay anywhere near Delphi and Visteon. It is a hard truth to swallow but it is the truth. Both Delphi and Visteon must get there labor rates equalized with the rest of the industry if those jobs are to stay in this country. GM's problems with labor are a little different than what DPH face. GM needs flexibility on work rules, retirement and jobs bank. The labor rate for the most part at GM is on par with the rest of the industry. Yes, GM needs to close factories and par down their labor force but will continue to build their product over here. Delphi and Visteon do not need to build in the US. There are different costs associated with General Assembly and component manufacturing.

Believe it or not the cost may not be that big of an issue. If the warranty is not transferable and limited to the original owner the associate cost could be in real terms on average 5 years. It is a gimmick that may have some merit.

Nothing is black and white. Let us not forget that there are more people working at DPH than 45 + executives and UAW emplyees. There are thousands of mid-level white collar workers who nobody talks about. Employees who's retirement consits of a 401k where contributions are matched by DPH in stock. Stock that is trading at .35 cents. Employees who are on a differernt pay and benefit system that is not more lucrative than their UAW counterparts. Look at the big picture and not the not so key points that are written in the press. DPH was destined to fail from the beginning and within reason everything was done to save the company.

http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant I do not agree with him much but this time he nails it. by Peter M. DeLorenzo The Canary in the Mineshaft. Detroit. The news of Delphi's bankruptcy filing may be just another piece of business news to those who don't live around these parts, or for those who don't have a vested interest in the U.S. auto industry, but the sad fact of the matter is that this development is just the tip of the iceberg in a fundamental shift that not only threatens to decimate the U.S. auto industry, it's one that will ultimately affect this nation's economy - no matter where you live or what you do. The Delphi bankruptcy is the latest major crack in the pressure cooker that the U.S. auto industry has become over the last two decades - only this one is definitely the tipping point into a dimension that industry insiders have been dreading. Lower cost competition from around the world has changed the auto manufacturing landscape completely - and Detroit has been operating under a model that has been obsolete for years. Strapped with a crushing wage and benefits structure negotiated in an environment fueled by an optimism that in retrospect had absolutely no right to exist, the American car companies and the United Auto Workers union are now facing a future that revolves around a harsh reality that comes down to this one simple but all-encompassing statement: change or die.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0510/12/C01-345924.htm This is a very good article. Automation Alley: Brains over brawn is Michigan's future By Daniel Howes / The Detroit News Comment on this story Send this story to a friend Get Home Delivery With the economic news growing grimmer by the week -- Delphi Corp. in bankruptcy and General Motors Corp. pushing the United Auto Workers for historic concessions, to name two pieces -- is there any hope out there? Can a state that seems more comfortable clinging to its entitlement-rich, 20th-century industrial giant mentality until it honors its last benefit and then collapses, spent, summon any evidence that the descending gloom-and-doom is premature? Actually, it can. But it's not the state of Michigan or its governor, unsure whether to embrace the reality of global competition or repeat the discredited rhetoric of protectionism-cum-federal bailout, who can claim authorship. It's Automation Alley, a consortium of business, government and education leaders dedicated to the proposition that the seeds of Michigan's economic future are in the strengths of its technical past and present. And, no, that doesn't mean assembly jobs on the factory floor.