evok

Exactly!

You want facts, look at the drop in GM's market share over the last 30 years. There was a time when GM was infallible in the press just like Toyota is today. I wonder why that changed? The facts are GM's car products with a few exceptions are irrelevant to the growth market in the US, that is unless it is the deal of the century. GM has a long road ahead of them to regain consumer confidence. And by the way, and I will say this publily, quit dragging me into you idiotic comments. I swear to god, that I have had enough with it.

Let us get the facts straight, the Camaro is not made yet. And the business case for the Camaro will be for a vehicle that will sell on price from $20k to $35k depending on engines and options. The 2006 concept would be priced at $35k with the 400hp engine. The Camaro concept is within inches of the current GTO when you look at dimensions. Where is the price point $35K? Sorry to tell you that is smack at the high end of the Camaro and at the entry point of the CTS/C. Hate to tell you it is not that simple. By the way, what platform? Zeta was cancelled once for NA already in case you do already know. Many of the reasons why the programs were cancelled were because they could not get the issues you bring up to work. Think outside the box, GM is a lot bigger than Pontiac and Buick. A Pontiac coupe as I have shown above will step on Chevys toes and the CTC if either come out. As for the sedans that is a different story.

I have said this before in the "What is wrong with GM thread", it is piss poor communications that leave many people guessing. So with that I agree with your comments because all your comments reflect a lack of communication with the investment community. Do I think there is fraud going on, no. But, I have to do a lot of digging inorder to undertand many things that GM does. This is not a new problem but an ongoing issue with GM. You bring up one point that I still have never fully understood and that was Fiat. I have a partial answer and a partial theory but why should I be theorizing on a financial decision such as the Fiat payoff. There is still good that came out of the link up but the question I have that was never answered was it worth the 4 billion. Hell I am still unaware if they were payed off in cash or funny money. I might have forgotten but at the moment I am not sure what happened to the 2 billion that Fiat bought of GM? Did GM just sell the 10% they owned in Fiat and give it back to them in cash? I do not know. What this leads to is a stock trading at $22 and a lot of people asking questions. It also seems GM's 3rd largest shareholder is asking the same questions. What's the story. Read the Jerry Yorks articles posted in the news today.

lol just pissed myself. Someone needs to PM the BM with a link to this thread.

No I think flowmotions thoughts are those expressed by the average person in the US. I applaud his honesty and his expression of the real perception issues that GM faces. As for your direct comments to him, I will say nothing else.

First, the let us talk this time next year about the sales of the Solstice. Though current sales rates are too early to guage long term success, they are only selling app. 2,000/month for an annual sales total if maintainable of 24,000/year. When the novelty wears off my projections are in the conservative area of 15k-18k. Particularly, when the Sky arrives, which will be a lot lower in volume will eat at the Solstice volume. So, what the plant can build and real world sales for the 2 current kappas is two different things. Let me put this into perspective, Mazda only sells 10,000 MX5 Miatas a year. It is not a big market. Now lets talk about the Sky. There is only 1 reason why the Sky is sold in NA and that is because it will be sold as an Opel, thus app. doubling the volume. Cadillac does not have that luxury or global brand reach to meet the sales need to justify the program like MB, BMW, and the other global lux manufacturers have. Your estimate of a kappa Caddy are on the high side for NA. In order for the program to be viable, they would have to sell double that to be cost effective. 15k give or take. Than there are issues with Kappa. It is unkown if kappa could support a V6 and package a retractible hard top. And if it can it would require significant development which add cost to the program.

If a GTO is to be revived after the current generation dies out it will have to piggy back on a global program. The case in point is that the current Monaro GTO did more for keeping Holden viable than anything else. In OZ, Holden only sold about 2,000 Monaros a year, where they produced app. 20,000 GTO for NA and kept the factory running. The real problem besides the obvious resourse allocation by GM is that GTO buyers looking for a Muscle car in the absense of a GTO replacement would go to a Camaro if done right. From a packaging standpoint, there is absolutly no difference between the Camaro conept and the current GTO. Both big, midsized two doors that can seat 4 easily. Therefore, there is little incentive to GM to come out with a GTO for limited volume that may steal some sales from a Camaro for which they are currently trying to build a business case. Also, not that I trust what he said, but Lutz did go on the record and state Chevrolet would need to sell 165k Camaros in order for it to be viable. It is possible that the existence of a GTO would eat into that goal. Also, Dodge will have the Challenger and Ford will have more variations and models of the Mustange to keep it fresh. The OEM's will be fighting over smaller slice of a stagnant market. This does not mean I would not like to see a properly designed GTO for Pontiac, I am just showing that with a push for a Camaro, it makes it harder for GM to justify spending money for a GTO replacment. What I think is a more viable option is for GM to give Pontiac a stretched Kappa with a V6, and offer a true 2+2. ala Mazda RX8. Or do the same for Buick and design it around the Riviera. But in summary, the 2 door portfolio is getting crowded if the CTS Coupe and Camaro get the go ahead.

Your business case is seriously flawed. Why because Cadillac could never command the GLOBAL volumes those vehicles above sell. ie MB sell app. 10k SLKs in the US and sells app. 10-15k more throughout the rest of the world. Cadillac does not have that luxury because Cadillac is not a GLOBAL luxury brand and sell app. 95% of their vehicles in the US.

The coupe market is not in vogue at the moment when anyone looks at the big picture. Let us say the Camaro becomes real and is priced with various engine options from $20k for the V6 up to $35k for the 400 hp V8 and the program can sell 100k vehicles on average a year. No let me add that Cadillac develops a coupe off sigma and this hypothetical CTC starts off in price at $35k and with sales in the 15k-20k region. So not let us look at the current GTO. Prices at app. $35k with 400hp. It does not fit because the dimesions and/or engine ratings would overlap the Camaro and based upon price could steal sales from the Cadillac. What I am saying is that Pontiac as a brand could use a GTO, but given the market and looking at GM's portfolio and limited coupe market, it does not make sense. If the GTO does get replaced I would expect it to be a completely different formula. GM does not want to create another Firebird/Camaro issue again. Because that is all it would be if Pontiac gets a GTO based upon the Camaro Concept.

lol

I put that in intentionally, at least you and a few others saw that.

Dude,,,,,,,,not for the boards.

Nah - I prefer MPH Magazine myself. They know their stuff.

I think someone should pass this on to Dan Brown. This could make for a greater book than the De Vince Code. Rober Lutz and the conspiricy to hide the fact his blood is of the offspring of Jesus and Mary thus passing on clues for future generation in mystical styling details on the next generation Tahoe. Rick Wagoner a member of the secret Illuminati incorporating secret sysmbols into the warning lights on the IP. Gary Cowger and Fritz conducting Pagan ceremonies in the D-Ham body shop in an effort to improve J.D Powers IQS while Jim Queen is sacrificing burnt offering to the Sun god in advanced engineering as a member of the Templar Knights in an attempt to make a vehicle more aerodynamic. All this, to keep the secret bloodline of Bob Lutz safe. The conspiricy is everywhere.

I think I understand the situation a lot better than you. And most certainly my info did not come from Edmunds or Motor Trend.

Don't get ahead of yourself. I would not be so certain that there WILL be a Camaro. At this time, take this report to the bank. No RFQs, no Camaro. And if the Camaro does get the final go, which I expect, there is little point for the GTO.

You are correct.

Look at the details .............................

Well, to all the doubting Thomas's out there, what have I been saying. Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait! I know it gets old. But, as you are beginning to see first hand, the waiting is over. The sleeping giant has awoken publically. Enjoy as the rest of the best gets rolled out over the next few years. Wagoner and Lutz were not a sleep at the helm...................

Exactly - I am sure hoping LaNeve was taken out of context though.

Sales pull ahead because of the sales promotion. That simple. June sales were up 40% for GM. They came from people thinking of getting vehicles in Aug, Sept, Oct etc. Instead of buying cars later they bought sooner. June and July were record months for the industry in sales. In the Fall, Katrina and gas prices killed truck sales, and the big 2 took the brunt of it because of their market share.

Start here and things might make sense! http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...topic=4591&st=0

I'll pass. I give Wagoner a pass until 1-1-08.

"On another subject, Mr. Wagoner called last summer's discount program "the most successful consumer program we have ever run." The plan, which gave consumers the price breaks that normally go only to the company's employees, helped G.M. reduce its swollen inventories of unsold cars. Matched by Ford and Chrysler, the program led to some of the strongest monthly sales in industry history. But sales fell steeply in September and October when the employee discounts were discontinued, prompting some experts to say that it had been a short-term solution to G.M.'s long-term problem of getting buyers to pay closer to retail for its cars and trucks." Wagoner quote from the NY Times interview.