Croc

there's this website, www.dictionary.com that has definitions of words and stuff. Or you could always look it up in a Webster's dictionary yourself.

The RIAA appears to have infiltrated the Ares network, and apparently the source code was released to them around the end of September. Stop using ARES if you currently are. Good luck. BTW if anyone knows a good P2P network, lemme know...

Stunning.

What Camaro? RWD is still years away at GM, and I think engine speculation is silly until we actually know a car is going to exist.

Anti-rust treatment? I'm pretty sure that most of that stuff is galvanized steel or aluminum. What would rust?

Wow ocn, that's a bummer!

Damnit Fly! Beat me to it!

You don't even know him personally and you haven't even met him. Grow up, there's no way you could actually hate him. Do you dislike his views? Maybe. Do you dislike the way he promotes his views? Quite possibly. But I know that you do not, in fact, hate him.

capriceman: word.

He spoke at USC last year. I listened, open-minded, and came to the conclusion that he is one of two things: 1) A generally uninformed "crusader" who talks to hear himself talk about things he really doesn't care about other than the publicity and "fame" he generates. A wannabe celebrity, who hopefully will never be one. 2) A very good manipulator who is adept at taking liberties with the truth in order to promote himself and his agenda, all the while convincing his listeners that he knows the truth and is just the only one to speak it. Neither of which are very flattering. So Michael Moore is either an idiot, or something of a cult leader in the making...

Maybe the coupe market will bounce back by the end of the decade. It all has to do with the economy. Coupes are not as practical as sedans, and with the continued economic uncertainty, I don't see the coupe market growing. Right now the growth segments are wagons, sedans, and crossover utes. What do those segments have in common? A high practicality coupled with low cost of ownership. Coupes, roadsters, and other niche vehicles are most popular when the economy is more certain and strong because they relate more closely with disposable income. If you need a vehicle (need, not want), are you going to by a sporty roadster/coupe or a sedan/crossover/minivan/wagon? People take care of necessities first, luxuries second.

I forgot to mention in the same PM that evok sent he said that it is too soon to publicly talk about their plans. Frankly, showing a Camaro or Camaro-esque concept would be considered "publicly talking about plans." Just saying...

But moving those two would cost even more money. I have a feeling Solstice and SKY will be on Kappa for a loooong time.

A Kappa Camaro? Sacrilege!

Hey, I already said I like the Camaro and want it back just as much as the next guy...but at the same time GM is in a precarious financial situation, and I'm looking at this from the business perspective. It would be great if everyone could get everything they wanted, but that is not the case, especially when money is involved. That's all I'm saying. BTW, I just got a PM from evok saying that we are still many years away from RWD, and that it is far to soon to begin speculating on all this. If it's that far away, then the Solstice shouldn't even be an issue.

SKY will have about a 3-4k premium over the base Solstice. I wouldn't worry about the cannibalizing there, especially since the styling will be the main differentiator between the two. Camaro will have a convertible, or at least a removable top, who are you trying to kid? Cobalt SS doesn't really compete with the Solstice at all because the two cater to very different markets. Cobalt SS is the top of the line economy car at Chevrolet. It has some performance, but it is not a "performance car." The Camaros most direct competitor will obviously be the Mustang, with a price point of just under 20k. If the Camaro is to compete with Mustang, it will also offer the drop top. GM will now be offering TWO sports cars with convertibles at the same price: Solstice and Camaro. Both are "performance cars" as their mission. Both will feature droptops. Which one do you think will have more performance? My bets are on Camaro. If GM prices the two the same, more people will choose Camaro over Solstice because: same money + more car + more raw power = Camaro Styling would really be the only real selling point for the Solstice. I just can't see why GM would do anything to jeopardize the Solstice, especially given that its platform is destined to be unprofitable at this point in time. AH-HA, evok, care to weigh in?

You need to stop thinking like an enthusiast and start thinking like a consumer. Both are going to be sporty, fun-to-drive vehicles. Let's put it this way: For the same price, you can get a 4-seat Camaro with a trunk, or a 2-seat Solstice with no trunk. Seriously, at 20k, sales of Solstice would be affected. People aren't buying Camaros as family vehicles. A 20k sedan wouldn't be cross-shopped with a Solstice, but another coupe? You betcha, especially one with sporty aspirations.

$20k? I'll believe it when I see it. Why would someone take a Solstice for 20k when they could have a larger Camaro for the same price? Not gonna be that low. You're really looking at just under 30k.

For the past three years, this time of year, we have ON THESE BOARDS heard that someone who has inside knowledge told a poster or two that a Camaro would be at NAIAS. That we have heard here for the past three years. I do realize what a halo car can do to a brand. Don't call me childish. At Chevrolet, the halo car is the Corvette. SSR is another halo vehicle at Chevrolet. Can you give me a reason why GM would want/need three halo cars at Chevrolet Motor Division? Look, it could very well happen. I think the probability is pretty damn unlikely, though. Don't get me wrong, I'll be stoked as anything if it happens. Part of me wants the Camaro back because Camaros are sweet cars, but at the same time I just don't think there is a business case for it, not with the Corvette, SSR, or GTO currently in production. How do you think a Camaro would be priced? What platform? Let's just say for lack of a better answer that it will be on "Sigma-Lite." That's great, but at what price point? Zeta was supposedly the name given to "Sigma-Lite." But it was too expensive, and vehicles would have to have been priced at 35k minimum. Let's just assume that somehow GM has managed to get the costs down with this new "Sigma-Lite." Now, instead of all vehicles being priced a minimum of 35k, what do you suppose the new minimum price would be? 30k? 25k seems too low, since I can't imagine GM could shave 10k off a RWD platform in 8 months. Do you think there is a market for a 30k Camaro? Be honest, don't just say emotionally you think there is. Everyone: just don't get your hopes up. Everyone overanalyzed the Chevrolet SS concept from a couple years ago too...

Not to be argumentative, but it's easy to say "unless something happens it will be there." And if it isn't? No, it was an accurate rumor, but something must have happened! I'm not buying it. --- Z: I am well aware Fly's remarks were in jest, but that does not make it any less true that the coupe market is pretty stagnated. The number of coupes has decreased in recent years dramatically, as have sales numbers. Why did the Grand Prix lose its coupe? Where are the Eldorado, Riviera or Cougar? Sales of the Stratus and Sebring coupes are far lower than the sedans (not including convertibles). Again, given the financial situation at GM, it would be a foolish business move to spend money on a non-core program. They've already done that with Solstice and SKY, and any further diversion of funds away from core product would be ridiculous. Then again, this is GM we're talking about...

I don't believe that the Fbodfather or GM officially declaring that a Camaro concept would be at NAIAS, did I miss that? No I didn't people made assumptions. I didn't have my hopes up I know that this would be the earliest year to see something, at the time, Sigma-lite based. If people want to belive AH-HA or evok more power to them I read carefully everything that I can that they say, but that doesn't mean they are the end all. Other people get information that they don't and sometimes the plans change. A Camaro might not be at NAIAS but hey it might be. Lets not jump the gun on somebody saying it might be there. Afterall the most reliable source of all things Camaro has left MANY hints that something VERY important to Camaro enthusiests will be at Detroit in January. So unless he is just yanking our chains and he is driving one of his fleet of B4Cs or Mr. Moss' ZL1 I think I will listen to him. [post="28471"][/post] Chill out buddy, I'm just providing the reality check because this rumor comes around every year this season. Frankly, I don't think GM should produce one at this point; it makes bad business sense. I think GM knows this too. They rushed their trucks forward and delayed a few other programs. Do they really want to be messing around with a non-volume product? No, though Lutz got away with the waste of capital that is the Solstice and SKY. Now before anyone jumps me regarding Solstice and SKY, know this: Unless a lot of variants are planned (at this point a negative) and they are on the market virtually unchanged for a good 9-10 years (another negative at this time), that platform will never post a single cent of profit.

This is the last I'm saying on the subject: Compare the number of coupes offered to the number of sedans offered. Then, compare the number of coupes sold versus sedans sold. Just try that, and then get back with me.

OK...so coupes exist. But that doesn't make it a huge market. The coupe market is relatively stagnant, or "dead."

Traveling isn't the same. You really have to live somewhere else in order to realize the different perspectives out there. Change is good, even if you find out you cling to what you started with. Life is a garden, enjoy it!

That rear is ridiculously long. Jim Mateja would have a cow over the "rear end droop" on that one. I don't really like it much. The rear is just too long and low, and the interior doesn't do much for me. I'd LIKE to like the interior, but the guages look too much like the new Civic's for my liking. The bright red START button is a bit tacky as well.