GM snuffs Holden's global RWD dream

[Oracle of Delphi]

As Z28 and ZL-1 know, I am in Australia, so I think this should come from me to soften the blow somewhat, at least I hope it does. Better to come from me than a stranger I think.

General Motors confirms G8 and Camaro are the last Aussie RWD models for America

By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS in DETROIT 13 January 2009

DEVELOPMENT of future large rear-wheel drive vehicle programs beyond the current-generation Holden-devised Zeta architecture has halted at General Motors, according to global product development vice-chairman Bob Lutz.

Speaking to Australian media at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit this week, Mr Lutz confirmed that increasingly punitive fuel-economy target legislation, combined with the severe economic crisis, had left the corporation with no option but to cease future RWD large-car development.

This means that GM may have to keep using the ageing Sigma RWD and all-wheel-drive architecture that has served on its upper-echelon vehicles such as the Cadillac CTS and STS sedans and the SRX luxury SUV.

The Sigma architecture debuted in 2002 beneath the first-generation CTS.

“The strategy we had a few years ago of basically deriving a whole sweeping global portfolio off the Australian Zeta architecture ... frankly, we have had to abandon that dream,” Mr Lutz said.

“This is because, whether you are in the United States or in China, fuel economy mandates are getting more and more severe, and we just could not base our strategy on doing relatively large and relatively heavy rear-wheel-drive cars.

“And I suspect the same thing is going to start to bite the traditional rear-wheel drive producers.”

Left: Bob Lutz unveils the VE Commodore-based Pontiac G8 at the Chicago show in 2007.

The Zeta’s death knell in the US follows GM’s announcement last week that the VE utility-derived Pontiac G8 ST program had been axed just months before the first vehicle was due to be made and shipped to North America.

Mr Lutz also confirmed that the Australian-developed Chevrolet Camaro – which is also built off the Zeta platform architecture – has suffered delays as GM tries to get back on its corporate feet. The convertible version will now arrive in 2011 while development of a right-hand drive model has also been set back by a few months – at the very least.

“Frankly, when we looked at investments that we could defer a little bit because they were non-essential or not critical to the short-term survival of the company, one of the things we pushed out a little bit was the Camaro convertible,” he said.

“It was going to initially be just one year after the coupe (on sale in the next few months in America), and now it is going to be two years after the coupe.

“And another thing we deferred was the right-hand-drive version. I’m confident it is going to happen, it’s just that it is going to happen a little later.”

How long the VE Commodore-based Pontiac G8 – which is built at Holden’s Elizabeth plant in Adelaide – survives is tied in with Pontiac’s fate.

“It all depends on what we are going to do with the Pontiac brand,” Mr Lutz said. “It is one of the US brands that we have announced that is under ‘strategic review’.

“With the current financial reality of the company, we’ve got too many kids and too many mouths to feed, and three brands ... actually three-and-a-half brands are under strategic review: Saturn, Hummer, Saab and ‘kind of’ Pontiac.

“We’ve said that we are going to focus Pontiac down to one or two entries – and for the time being one of the two entries will be the G8, the other being the Pontiac Vibe, and of course the Solstice Roadster and Coupe – and that’s basically the Pontiac line-up.”

Nevertheless, GM’s global design director (and former Holden design chief) Mike Simcoe told GoAuto in Detroit that the Pontiac G8 had become profitable in North America in recent months, despite selling around half as many as GM anticipated, due to the big drop in the value of the Australian dollar compared to the US currency.

And the HSV-based 6.2-litre Pontiac GXP will still be launched as scheduled in February.

Mr Lutz also acknowledged that there would be a next-generation Commodore produced in Australia using a development of the Zeta architecture that debuted as the VE series in July 2006.

Due out in about 2012 or 2013, it is believed that the next Commodore’s ‘top hat’ (body and interior) will change, as will parts of the drivetrain to accommodate alternative fuel powerplants, but the basic chassis will be carried over.

“It is our intent to continue the Australian rear-wheel-drive cars; we will continue building them and doing a next generation and so forth and so on,” Mr Lutz said.

“And, to be honest, they continue to be my favourite cars. I think they are absolutely wonderful – but the regulatory environment is such that it would be imprudent to base a whole global platform strategy on them ... much to my personal chagrin, by the way.”

Mr Lutz said that, providing GM pulled through the current economic crisis, he expected the auto giant might again be open to the development of a new RWD platform with an expert partner like Holden in Australia – in the long-term.

“What many of us would like to do (one day) is to do an all-new global rear-wheel drive architecture that would be considerably smaller, lighter and be capable of taking four-cylinder powertrains,” he said.

“That, I think, could be globally shared. It’s not even in the plan at this point; it’s just what we tell ourselves in that there is going to have to be a next-generation Camaro, and there is going to have to be a next-generation Cadillac sedan, and so there is going to have to be a smaller and a way more efficient rear-wheel-drive architecture.

“But at this point it is just a gleam in our eye.”

Meanwhile, Mr Lutz revealed that GM’s decision to green light the design, development and assembly of its next-generation ‘Delta’ small car in Elizabeth leaves Holden in a stronger position to weather the vagaries of consumer trends and economic downturns.

“Holden has basically committed to localising a compact car for Australia’s future because we see that is where the growth is,” he said.

Holden managing director and CEO Mark Reuss also said in Detroit this week that sealing the small-car deal for Australia was one of his top priorities when he began his stint in Australia one year ago, and that much of his time since has been spent implementing the program.

Link: http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf...A25753D0016D9D3

Edited January 14, 2009 by Pontiac Custom-S

[Satty]

I'll get it out of the way

Waaaaa!!! Waaaa!!! :hissyfit:

[Intrepidation]

It's a cop-out. Put some fuel efficient diesels in there like the Germans do in Europe, get them to meet US emissions and there you go. Maybe throw in some hybrid powertrains...maybe a diesel hybrid?

I saw it coming but it's still a big steaming load of BS.

[Drew Dowdell]

1. RWD v. FWD make no difference in fuel economy

2. "Coming from you" doesn't soften the blow. It's you here saying "I told you so" and I wouldn't doubt that you had a hand in it.

3. Sigma is "aging" already? Kicking BMW ass around Nurburgring and it's "aging"

4. What happens to Alpha?

[Satty]

Certifying those diesels would cost money that GM doesn't have

[Robert Hall]

1. RWD v. FWD make no difference in fuel economy

2. "Coming from you" doesn't soften the blow. It's you here saying "I told you so" and I wouldn't doubt that you had a hand in it.

3. Sigma is "aging" already? Kicking BMW ass around Nurburgring and it's "aging"

4. What happens to Alpha?

As far as #4, this implies Alpha is on the far back burner:

“What many of us would like to do (one day) is to do an all-new global rear-wheel drive architecture that would be considerably smaller, lighter and be capable of taking four-cylinder powertrains,” he said.

“That, I think, could be globally shared. It’s not even in the plan at this point; it’s just what we tell ourselves in that there is going to have to be a next-generation Camaro, and there is going to have to be a next-generation Cadillac sedan, and so there is going to have to be a smaller and a way more efficient rear-wheel-drive architecture.

“But at this point it is just a gleam in our eye.” (Alpha?)

Sad... I guess to survive GM is going to focus on FWD generics for the mass market and forget about the good stuff, beyond what is already in the pipeline.

[Intrepidation]

Certifying those diesels would cost money that GM doesn't have

GM should have been working on it years ago when they had the money.

[Satty]

GM should have been working on it years ago when they had the money.

Unfortunately for everyone (a diesel Astra would make me overlook some of the huge flaws the car has) foresight is something that the state of Michigan outlawed in 1968.

[Camino LS6]

Read my sig.

And this while you're at it:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661387

[62impala]

Well this really sucks for the next generation Impala then --- what do I replace my 06 Impala SS with - a new Malibu? I don't think so.... GM should dump the G8 and make that the next Impala, at least as a stop-gap for a few years.

Seriously, this is terrible news for future full-sized GM sedans, and especially bad for Chevrolet, which now has a very dated flagship model.

I might have to look at a new Lacrosse or buy a slightly used DTS now...

[mustang84]

Read my sig.

And this while you're at it:

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661387

If that whole post is true, that leaves me much more at ease about the future of RWD at GM. I can handle the waiting game until things stabilize.

[smk4565]

CAFE is a weak excuse, they still make Hummers, Suburbans and Tahoes that suck far more gas than any rear drive car. The CTS gets the same mileage as the Malibu, so FWD vs RWD makes no difference in mileage. The problem is too many years of feeding Saturn, Saab, Hummer, etc and not enough time making modern, lightweight platforms, clean diesel, hybrid cars, etc. Only now are they getting the 6-speeds and DI engines to market, they should have been doing that in 2005-2006, but they pushed the GMT900s as priority one, and thought "high value" 3500 and 3900 V6s is what the market wanted.

Sigma may not seem dated now, but the E-class and 5-series are getting redone this year, and BMW is already has the test mule for the next generation 3-series, if they don't start on a Sigma replacement now, they will be behind again.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

DEVELOPMENT of future large rear-wheel drive vehicle programs beyond the current-generation Holden-devised Zeta architecture has halted at General Motors, according to global product development vice-chairman Bob Lutz.

*YAWN* ... Old news... This has been out for a few days now.

And BTW, the quote that followed that quote basically said that GM will continue to work on RWD when it gets more $$$.

This means that GM may have to keep using the ageing Sigma RWD and all-wheel-drive architecture that has served on its upper-echelon vehicles such as the Cadillac CTS and STS sedans and the SRX luxury SUV.

I love how Sigma was "phenominal" last year when the CTS debuted, but is apparently "AgEing" now.

The Sigma architecture debuted in 2002 beneath the first-generation CTS.

Oh, teh noooz.... It's a whopping 7 years old! Don't most camry platforms go for about twice as long as this?

The Zeta’s death knell in the US follows GM’s announcement last week that the VE utility-derived Pontiac G8 ST program had been axed just months before the first vehicle was due to be made and shipped to North America.

1) Zeta has been "dead" in the U.S. since the FIRST time Lutz rang the "death knell" (seriously... same wording used and all)

2) Word from insiders is that the Cadillac and Buick Zetas are merely delayed at this point, not dead. (Epsilon is being evaluated for those replacements but certainly has not been chosen, and the choice probably will not be made for another year as GM has WAY more important things to execute than LARGE cars right now.)

3) The G8 ST was killed because it clashed with what Pontiac is going to become, not because it mattered as a Zeta. Production, that has already been paid for, of about 5-7,000 units isn't anything to CAFE. And, FWIW, LaNeve even contended that the G8 ST could return if the market rebounds.

Mr Lutz also confirmed that the Australian-developed Chevrolet Camaro – which is also built off the Zeta platform architecture – has suffered delays as GM tries to get back on its corporate feet. The convertible version will now arrive in 2011 while development of a right-hand drive model has also been set back by a few months – at the very least.

Good... GM needs to focus on paying the bills, not being sexy.

How long the VE Commodore-based Pontiac G8 – which is built at Holden’s Elizabeth plant in Adelaide – survives is tied in with Pontiac’s fate.

“It all depends on what we are going to do with the Pontiac brand,” Mr Lutz said. “It is one of the US brands that we have announced that is under ‘strategic review’.

Well, considering that Lutz said the Commodore is safe for at least 2 more generations. And that the G8, no matter how much it sales is profitable (unless the dollar goes schizo) And that the G8 has been identified by almost EVERY exec as a keeper in the Pontiac line up... I'd say it's chances are pretty good.

“We’ve said that we are going to focus Pontiac down to one or two entries – and for the time being one of the two entries will be the G8, the other being the Pontiac Vibe, and of course the Solstice Roadster and Coupe – and that’s basically the Pontiac line-up.”

Sounds good to me... There have been many conflicting reports though.... People saying anywhere from 3 to even 6 cars. Hell, even Lutz contradicts himself in that quote. He says one or two cars, then list four. (He counts the Solstice coupe as a separate entry)

“And, to be honest, they continue to be my favourite cars. I think they are absolutely wonderful – but the regulatory environment is such that it would be imprudent to base a whole global platform strategy on them ... much to my personal chagrin, by the way.”

That should've been a no brainer from day one. Hell, even if regs hadn't gotten in the way, it's not like they would've sold in the volume that GM wanted to sell them in.

Mr Lutz said that, providing GM pulled through the current economic crisis, he expected the auto giant might again be open to the development of a new RWD platform with an expert partner like Holden in Australia – in the long-term.

Alpha or the newly prophesized Zeta-lite

“What many of us would like to do (one day) is to do an all-new global rear-wheel drive architecture that would be considerably smaller, lighter and be capable of taking four-cylinder [THE REST OF THE QUOTE GOES:] V6 AND V8 powertrains” he said.

This article is like 2-3 days old...

Edited January 15, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

2. "Coming from you" doesn't soften the blow. It's you here saying "I told you so"

Exactly....

and I wouldn't doubt that you had a hand in it.

I highly doubt that... They usually don't let global janitors make product decisions (although, the janitors might do a better job than the execs have been doing)

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Unfortunately for everyone (a diesel Astra would make me overlook some of the huge flaws the car has) foresight is something that the state of Michigan outlawed in 1968.

Apparently so...

[Camino LS6]

Ah FOG, you are a C&G treasure!

[2QuickZ's]

General Motors confirms G8 and Camaro are the last Aussie RWD models for America

By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS in DETROIT 13 January 2009

“This is because, whether you are in the United States or in China, fuel economy mandates are getting more and more severe, and we just could not base our strategy on doing relatively large and relatively heavy rear-wheel-drive cars.

So I take it this means they are going to stick to producing overweight FWD cars instead?!?

[Camino LS6]

So I take it this means they are going to stick to producing overweight FWD cars instead?!?

Seems that way.

[gm4life]

No new news. I am waiting to see what comes out on the other side of the current sales slump. I do have some faith in GM and Pontiac.

[gmcbob]

I know this particular article is fairly recent, but haven't we all sort of known this was going to happen for a while now? Hell, I was actually fearing he'd say that the G8 is dead beyond this summer or something. It's not even really that bad.

The only disturbing part in this article was how he referred to a smaller rear drive platform as a "gleam in their eyes" or some such b.s. I'm really pulling for a slightly smaller, lighter Camaro with a crazy high horsepower V6 or maybe even a small displacement but high horsepower V8. My wife's 2008 G35 is a blast to drive - its almost just as quick as my 98 Z28 was, and its a V6. GM needs a car like Nissan's FX platform in a major way. Sigma II sort of works, but it's a little bit on the heavy side. Although I wonder if GM could just lighten up Sigma for a car like that - and make the NG CTS lighter and use that platform for a Camaro as well?

The other thing that has me "worried" is that the NG CTS and STS would be moved to a fwd platform altogether. If that happens, all bets are off for Caddy. It wasn't said in this article, but I can easily see the "brains" at GM looking at how Ford is treating Lincoln and think "wow, we can do that too and sell cars". I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if they change direction at Cadillac and move that brand back over to fwd entirely. Based on principle, I think I'd have to completely abandon GM at that point, even if I was only in the market for a mundane front driver like my Vue. If they do that to Caddy, I'd be pissed.

Personally, I don't think this is a CAFE issue as much as it is a cost issue. I'd be willing to bet a fwd Malibu or LaCrosse costs less to build than a rear drive G8 or Camaro. At the end of the day, the bean counters are still going to win. Cheap to build product is going to win over expensive to build product now.

Thinking out loud - maybe the only thing saving Sigma/Caddy is the fact that they can get away with charging so much for it. Perhaps getting $45k+ for a rear drive Sigma is better than only getting $35K for a front drive Eps II?

Who knows - GM is so goofy sometimes when it comes to product planning and placement that I can't even believe they've made it this far past the late 90s.

[SAmadei]

...and so the terrorists have finally won.

No RWD, no sale. Its that simple.

The Germans and Japanese will continue to provide good RWD cars, so I guess I'll have to get a bumper sticker for my 7 series... "I tried to buy American, but the Big 3 used CAFE as a cop out".

When I buy my G8 GXP in a few months at a GM fire sale, I guess I'll have to put it in the garage and treat it like the early '70s end-of-an-era cars.

I hope Lutz, Wagoner and PCS like their Studebaker-like legacy.

I really have to stop paying attention to this soap opera. It's giving me an ulcer, and the results are going to be as predictable as a slasher film: more of the same FWD generics... a 30 year GM legacy... and America ain't buying them.

[Intrepidation]

...and so the terrorists have finally won.

No RWD, no sale. Its that simple.

The Germans and Japanese will continue to provide good RWD cars, so I guess I'll have to get a bumper sticker for my 7 series... "I tried to buy American, but the Big 3 used CAFE as a cop out".

Well not quite true, Chrysler will still have large RWD cars, maybe even midsize if they produce the 200C. Ford's got...the Mustang.

[Z-06]

Well not quite true, Chrysler will still have large RWD cars, maybe even midsize if they produce the 200C. Ford's got...the Mustang.

Fixed

[Intrepidation]

LOL *slaps self*

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Personally, I don't think this is a CAFE issue as much as it is a cost issue. I'd be willing to bet a fwd Malibu or LaCrosse costs less to build than a rear drive G8 or Camaro. At the end of the day, the bean counters are still going to win. Cheap to build product is going to win over expensive to build product now.

It's not...

Especially if the mix continues to be as it was this year... CAFE won't even be a factor then.

[Daryl Z71]

Wow I dont even know what to expect anymore...

[Z-06]

Let us put this GM's idealogy of FWD vehicle has better fuel economy than RWD vehicle to rest right away.

Cadillac CTS 3.6 vs. Buick Lacrosse 3.0

CTS - Weight 3872 EPA 18-26

Lacrosse - Weight 3948 EPA 18-27 - I know it is not final EPA estimate, but it will not jump like 3 mpg from what GM is predicting.

City fuel economy is EQUAL while highway fuel economy for Lacrosse is 1mpg better. Wow big deal.

Cadillac CTS 3.6DI vs. Buick Lucerne 3.6DI

CTS - Weight 3874 EPA 17-26

Lacrosse - Weight 4019 EPA 17-26

Looks same to me.

It is the closest these cars will get w.r.t to weight (2% difference for 3.6vs3.0 and 3% difference for 3.6vs3.6). I do not see a significant difference in fuel economy at all.

And for S&G let us use BMW335i 6 speed auto and Chevy Malibu V6 LTZ, since they have almost same weight and because neither cars have transmissions or engines geared towards fuel saving (for example Accord's fuel saving lazy transmission)

BMW - Weight 3605 EPA 17/26.

Malibu - Weight 3649 EPA 17/26.

Where in these three comparisons the RWD vehicles have worse fuel economy than FWD?

[SAmadei]

Well not quite true, Chrysler will still have large RWD cars, maybe even midsize if they produce the 200C. Ford's got...the Mustang.

Granted, this is not the case with Chrysler today... or Ford and GM. I can still buy one of four GM nameplates with RWD in the next 6 months... (Sky and Solstice don't count... unless I lose 100 pounds and four vertebrae) However, given Chrysler's current woes, I can't bank on them continuing to hold the line. Assuming they stay in business, who can say that the bean counters, new corporate owners or minivan committee don't take GM and Ford's lead... especially with the current LX's cooling off.

My line about the bumper sticker is a glimpse of the future which can _still_ change... kind of like "A Christmas Carol".

I had faith in GM until the recent RWD hating that kicked off with the G8 ST... then Ford jumped in... and with everyone talking about how that even big FWD cars are nearly extinct... I fear a future in which the Malibu is the biggest American car and Chrysler is a distant memory.

Have you been to NYC lately? The dumbass mayor decreed that all new taxis be hybrids. Well, there are no Crown Vic or Town Car hybrids. Two years later, when you need a taxi, sometimes you have to get into the back of an ALTIMA! The taxi driver is 6'3" and has his seat all the way back, so my knapsack barely fits behind him. Once I fit in the door, he puts the front seat all the way up... and I feel like I am sitting ALONGSIDE the driver. In three more years, because NYC taxis can be a maximum of 5 years old, there will be NO more Crown Vics.

I don't know why its inconceivable for Ford to put the Escape drivetrain in a Crown Vic... or for GM to realize that a driveshaft only adds about 40 pounds to a car... but turns it from an has-been to a premium vehicle.

Sorry about the rant.

[Dragon]

I don't like it, but I can see where they are coming from. For now I will give them a pass because tough decisions have to be made. Last time I checked, the 300's weren't exactly selling well. My buddy at Brampton said the shipping yards were filled with unsold vehicles, and the sales numbers seem to bear that out as well

Now if in a few years, when times are better, if GM doesn't go back to RWD, then all other things being equal, I will say ciao.

[Chazman]

Nothing new here guys, other than official confirmation that GM is at least talking about a smaller, lighter 6th gen Camaro which will share it's architecture with a "next gen Cadillac sedan".

Hallelujah!

[ShadowDog]

I'm not reading that CAFE put a stranglehold on RWD platform development; but that it is placing restrictions on GM for where their money is better spent on development of all vehicles to meet CAFE requirements. There's not enough to go around, so RWD must suffer for the greater good. For the sake of those thinking it's a RWD vs FWD fuel-economy battle, is this not how the release should be interpreted?

Edited January 15, 2009 by ShadowDog

[regfootball]

every weekend we take my daughter to the local donut place and have donuts and milk and coffee.

it's a dive, but she likes donuts.

so the clientele is kind of rough.

last weekend someone was there with a new hyundai genesis.

it was a beautiful car. (needs a new grille).

perfect car for the times, actually. if you were wealthy and couldn't get a new S-Class. It's a Hyundai, so folks can't look at you dirty. They have Hyundais at the airport.

any future GM platform regardless of which way the engine sits, should be able to sell with AWD right out of the chute.

[prinzSD]

It's official...I am done with GM. They won't meet my future needs and so goodbye. As soon as my GM stock goes up I will sell it because I have no faith in any future GM. I don't buy the arguement that RWD will be curtailed by other manufactures. Clearly GM has no clue and as I stated in an other post that defending GM to friends and family has been difficult but now I no longer have any strength to defend GM. I will just shut up and not engage in any debate any more.

[Intrepidation]

Let us put this GM's idealogy of FWD vehicle has better fuel economy than RWD vehicle to rest right away.

Cadillac CTS 3.6 vs. Buick Lacrosse 3.0

CTS - Weight 3872 EPA 18-26

Lacrosse - Weight 3948 EPA 18-27 - I know it is not final EPA estimate, but it will not jump like 3 mpg from what GM is predicting.

City fuel economy is EQUAL while highway fuel economy for Lacrosse is 1mpg better. Wow big deal.

Cadillac CTS 3.6DI vs. Buick Lucerne 3.6DI

CTS - Weight 3874 EPA 17-26

Lacrosse - Weight 4019 EPA 17-26

Looks same to me.

It is the closest these cars will get w.r.t to weight (2% difference for 3.6vs3.0 and 3% difference for 3.6vs3.6). I do not see a significant difference in fuel economy at all.

And for S&G let us use BMW335i 6 speed auto and Chevy Malibu V6 LTZ, since they have almost same weight and because neither cars have transmissions or engines geared towards fuel saving (for example Accord's fuel saving lazy transmission)

BMW - Weight 3605 EPA 17/26.

Malibu - Weight 3649 EPA 17/26.

Where in these three comparisons the RWD vehicles have worse fuel economy than FWD?

Great post!

[ZL-1]

“What many of us would like to do (one day) is to do an all-new global rear-wheel drive architecture that would be considerably smaller, lighter and be capable of taking four-cylinder powertrains,” he said.

“That, I think, could be globally shared. It’s not even in the plan at this point; it’s just what we tell ourselves in that there is going to have to be a next-generation Camaro, and there is going to have to be a next-generation Cadillac sedan, and so there is going to have to be a smaller and a way more efficient rear-wheel-drive architecture.

“But at this point it is just a gleam in our eye.”

Hmmm...

[Chazman]

Hmmm...

That there is the most newsworthy part. The rest we already knew for a looong time. The other newsworthy part here, (if you are a Camaro fan), is that Lutz actually came out and discussed the 6th gen Camaro. Beyond the fact that the 5th gen isn't even out yet, I've been hearing from various sources that the 5th gen Camaro isn't finding favor with GM management - due to it's large size and weight - and the future of the brand itself was in great jeopardy. A here comes good ole Bob and tells the world that a future Camaro ,(or as he pronounces it Ca- MAH- ro), is being discussed as well as a NEW MORE APPROPRIATE RWD ARCHITECTURE TO PUT IT ON.

I don't know why some of you guys are crying. This is the best freaking news I've heard from GM in over a year - even if there is a component of vaporware here, I'll grasp at what I can get.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Chazman

[ZL-1]

Lutz's talk tells me that whatever GM ends up developing as a RWD architecture is not finalized in terms of overall concept, so engineering and testing seem to be very far away into the future...

IMHO GM's RWD post-Sigma and post-Zeta efforts should be a RWD/AWD modular platform, similar in concept to what Audi came up with: Audi's modular platform will reportedly underpin everyhting from the A4 up to the A8.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Granted, this is not the case with Chrysler today... or Ford and GM. I can still buy one of four GM nameplates with RWD in the next 6 months... (Sky and Solstice don't count... unless I lose 100 pounds and four vertebrae) However, given Chrysler's current woes, I can't bank on them continuing to hold the line. Assuming they stay in business, who can say that the bean counters, new corporate owners or minivan committee don't take GM and Ford's lead... especially with the current LX's cooling off.

My line about the bumper sticker is a glimpse of the future which can _still_ change... kind of like "A Christmas Carol".

I had faith in GM until the recent RWD hating that kicked off with the G8 ST... then Ford jumped in... and with everyone talking about how that even big FWD cars are nearly extinct... I fear a future in which the Malibu is the biggest American car and Chrysler is a distant memory.

Have you been to NYC lately? The dumbass mayor decreed that all new taxis be hybrids. Well, there are no Crown Vic or Town Car hybrids. Two years later, when you need a taxi, sometimes you have to get into the back of an ALTIMA! The taxi driver is 6'3" and has his seat all the way back, so my knapsack barely fits behind him. Once I fit in the door, he puts the front seat all the way up... and I feel like I am sitting ALONGSIDE the driver. In three more years, because NYC taxis can be a maximum of 5 years old, there will be NO more Crown Vics.

I don't know why its inconceivable for Ford to put the Escape drivetrain in a Crown Vic... or for GM to realize that a driveshaft only adds about 40 pounds to a car... but turns it from an has-been to a premium vehicle.

Sorry about the rant.

I agree...

But no one cares about freedom of choice anymore...

I have a hard time fitting in anything this side of a Crown Vic. But that doesn't matter as long as the anorexic college douchebag lib can have "Hope" that I'm not polluting the world for his kids. After all, he doesn't have to suffer and that's the whole idea behind the green/liberal mindset. "What doesn't affect me personally, doesn't matter. A to hell with you if it affects you."

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I've been hearing from various sources that the 5th gen Camaro isn't finding favor with GM management

Of course it isn't...

It makes too much sense and is too good of a product for the idiots at GM not to eff with it in some way.

It's times like this that I wish GM would just get it over with and either be bought or liquidated. Give the damn brands to SOMEONE that at least has a clue.

they'll covet and nuture 8 year old Saabs all day long, but by god, the Camaro can't even hit the lots before someone is b*tching like a little school girl.

(And no, I'm not drunk tonight... For some reason, I'm just really pissed off)

Edited January 16, 2009 by FUTURE_OF_GM

[Lamar]

IMHO GM's RWD post-Sigma and post-Zeta efforts should be a RWD/AWD modular platform, similar in concept to what Audi came up with: Audi's modular platform will reportedly underpin everyhting from the A4 up to the A8.

Link about Audi? I tried Google but found nothing but Ford and GM killing their rumored RWD platforms.

[Blake Noble]

Of course it isn't...

It makes too much sense and is too good of a product for the idiots at GM not to eff with it in some way.

It's times like this that I wish GM would just get it over with and either be bought or liquidated. Give the damn brands to SOMEONE that at least has a clue.

they'll covet and nuture 8 year old Saabs all day long, but by god, the Camaro can't even hit the lots before someone is b*tching like a little school girl.

(And no, I'm not drunk tonight... For some reason, I'm just really pissed off)

Well, like Chazman said, it isn't finding favor with management because of it's size and weight. And I'll put that aspect of the F5 Camaro in perspective here, as I have done in another thread.

These are some dimensions of the F5 Camaro versus the dimensions of my 1972 Cutlass, an all-steel, body-on-frame, classic American car.

1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 350 V8:

• Curb weight: 3,515 lb
• Wheelbase: 112 in (Coupe models)
• Overall length: 201.7 in
• Overall width: 76.8 in

2010 Chevrolet F5 Camaro 3.6L V6:

• Curb weight: 3741 lb (LS w/ manual)
• Wheelbase: 112.3 in
• Overall length: 190.4 in
• Overall width: 75.5 in

As you can see the F5 Camaro weights some 200 pounds more and is about one inch narrower and ten inches shorter in overall length than my Cutlass. And, like I've already said, my Cutlass is all steel and body-on-frame. In addition, my Cutlass is on a wheelbase that is in the same ballpark of most modern full-sized sedans. For example, the 2009 Impala's wheelbase comes in at 110.5 in. and that's actually around two inches shorter than my Cutlass. The Camaro's wheelbase is 2.3 inches longer than the full-sized Chevrolet Impala's.

No, this new Camaro is a cow. Of course it is, it almost tips the scales at two tons in base form with a V6 and a manual transmission. It might be a good product, but considering the reality of its size and weight, it won't be a "nimble" car. It's dimensions would suitable for a new Monte Carlo maybe, but never a Camaro.

There is a reason why the Cobalt SS Turbocharged was just as good as it was around the Nurburing.

And remember, I supported the Camaro almost all the way up until the end. What killed the fun for me was coming to terms with the facts I have just posted here, although I knew just how big the Camaro was going to be beforehand (I just didn't realize it was going to be that big).

Edited January 16, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Z-06]

Link about Audi? I tried Google but found nothing but Ford and GM killing their rumored RWD platforms.

Your Wish granted.

Basically it is an ultra flexible longitudinally mounted engine platform that can be versatile enough to accommodate vehicles of any size and shape. I was trying to find one of the German articles that I had read and which had details this platform but could not find it.

[Chazman]

Well, like Chazman said, it isn't finding favor with management because of it's size and weight. And I'll put that aspect of the F5 Camaro in perspective here, as I have done in another thread.

These are some dimensions of the F5 Camaro versus the dimensions of my 1972 Cutlass, an all-steel, body-on-frame, classic American car.

1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 350 V8:

• Curb weight: 3,515 lb
• Wheelbase: 112 in (Coupe models)
• Overall length: 201.7 in
• Overall width: 76.8 in

2010 Chevrolet F5 Camaro 3.6L V6:

• Curb weight: 3741 lb (LS w/ manual)
• Wheelbase: 112.3 in
• Overall length: 190.4 in
• Overall width: 75.5 in

As you can see the F5 Camaro weights some 200 pounds more and is less one inch narrower and ten inches shorter in overall length than my Cutlass. And, like I've already said, my Cutlass is all steel and body-on-frame. In addition, my Cutlass is on a wheelbase that is in the same ballpark of most modern full-sized sedans (for example, the 2009 Impala's wheelbase comes in at 110.5 in. and that's actually two inches shorter than my Cutlass).

No, this new Camaro is a cow. Of course it is, it almost tips the scales at two tons in base form with a V6 and a manual transmission. It might be a good product, but considering the reality of its size and weight, it won't be a "nimble" car. It's dimensions would suitable for a new Monte Carlo maybe, but never a Camaro.

And remember, I supported the Camaro almost all the way up until the ending. What killed the fun for me was coming to realizing the facts I have just posted here.

I'm disappointed as well, but I don't want to see the brand snuffed out. I mean first of all, where were all of these big wigs during this car's developement? Why didn't they express these concerns early on? Anyway, water under the bridge now.

I just want the Camaro to survive now. Survive, eventhough it's the only Zeta going down a line designed to build several hundred thousand cars. Survive, eventhough draconian CAFE standards are coming. Survive long enough to have an orderly lifecycle and hopefully a better replacement.

[Lamar]

Your Wish granted.

Basically it is an ultra flexible longitudinally mounted engine platform that can be versatile enough to accommodate vehicles of any size and shape. I was trying to find one of the German articles that I had read and which had details this platform but could not find it.

Oh, the B8 platform... I knew about that. It's still FWD/AWD, though (see current A4); I'm certain I would have seen reference to a RWD Audi sedan.

[Blake Noble]

I'm disappointed as well, but I don't want to see the brand snuffed out. I mean first of all, where were all of these big wigs during this car's development? Why didn't they express these concerns early on? Anyway, water under the bridge now.

I just want the Camaro to survive now. Survive, even though it's the only Zeta going down a line designed to build several hundred thousand cars. Survive, even though draconian CAFE standards are coming. Survive long enough to have an orderly lifecycle and hopefully a better replacement.

Don't get me wrong; I do want the F5 Camaro to have decent success so that we can see a lighter and proper F6 Camaro as well, and hopefully we will. There has to be a high-volume (or higher-volume) product on Alpha somewhere, correct, to help prop up the Cadillac Alpha. It's been said a dozen times from various sources. And I don't doubt that Alpha is more than "a twinkle in GM's eye" like Bob Lutz said either.

[Blake Noble]

Oh, the B8 platform... I knew about that. It's still FWD/AWD, though (see current A4); I'm certain I would have seen reference to a RWD Audi sedan.

What ZL-1 was trying to say was that Alpha should be able to accept cars of various sizes and shapes, just like Audi's B8 platform, not that Audi has a RWD/AWD platform in the works that Alpha should emulate.

And ZL-1 is right.

Edited January 16, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Chazman]

Don't get me wrong; I do want the F5 Camaro to have decent success so that we can see a lighter and proper F6 Camaro as well, and hopefully we will. There has to be a high-volume (or higher-volume) product on Alpha somewhere, correct, to help prop up the Cadillac Alpha. It's been said a dozen times from various sources. And I don't doubt that Alpha is more than "a twinkle in GM's eye" like Bob Lutz said either.

I'm told that talk of a 6th gen Camaro is little more than just that right now-talk. But it's remarkable to me (in a good way) that talk even exists - considering the 5th gen isn't even out yet. So maybe it's just past the "twinkle" stage.

But lots more has to happen first.

First GM has to keep from melting down, and second work on Alpha has to start again.

Beyond that, the 5th gen needs to be successful enough to give the next car a window of opportunity to go through the approval process.

Edited January 16, 2009 by Chazman

[Camino LS6]

I'm all for Alpha especially for the next Camaro and for Pontiac, but I really love Zeta more.

For me, Zeta is exactly the size of car I want. Of course all of you know all about that from The Chevelle Project.

Dead dreams suck.

[Chazman]

I'm all for Alpha especially for the next Camaro and for Pontiac, but I really love Zeta more.

For me, Zeta is exactly the size of car I want. Of course all of you know all about that from The Chevelle Project.

Dead dreams suck.

Yeah, I feel ya, trust me. Why wouldn't you buy a Camaro or G8? Or did you have your heart set on the ST?

[Camino LS6]

Yeah, I feel ya, trust me. Why wouldn't you buy a Camaro or G8? Or did you have your heart set on the ST?

I have been waiting for over 20 years for the ST (thought it would wear a 'Camino badge though).

So yeah, you could say my heart was set on it.

I won't buy a G8 because I hate sedans.

I won't buy a Camaro because of the way they handled the ST, and because settling for the runner-up isn't my way.

That's not to say I won't buy a used one along the way, but the passion i had for the ST just isn't there for Camaro.

The Camaro has legions of fans and I like smaller crowds.