To the gay men of C&G...

[The O.C.]

Paolino, don't be so sure your family won't learn to accept you for who you are.  My parents found out I was gay when I was 15 - 1976.  My father, who made Archie Bunker look like a liberal, was pretty freaked.  I was living with him at the time.  He made lots of threats (like throwing me out when I turned 16), but truthfully, he was all bluster and no action.  My mother thought she could turn me.  Her main contention was that at 15 I had no idea who or what I was.  Although I absolutely knew I was gay, my arguments were weak and lame.

  There was no immediate resolution.  I tried living with my mother for about 18 months, but when she discovered a girl I had been dating was actually bisexual and had gay friends, she freaked and grounded me.  Like, I was 17 and my curfew was 9:00 and she would phone where I said I was going, or show up at the library to make sure I was there.  I couldn't live like that, so as soon as my grade 11 exams were done, I found a job and an apartment and moved to Toronto.

  I never looked back.  My mother came around when I had been living with my first boyfriend for a year.  She met him, realized he wasn't a child molester (he was 19 - I was into older men then!)  As she later said to me: she knew absolutely nothing about homosexuality, except the dirty stories.  She educated herself.  It was the late '70s and there wasn't much info out there.

She became very supportive.  When my first boyfriend and I broke up (after 5 years) she tried to play marriage counselor.  That was funny!  She really became attached to Bob.

  My father was another story.  My mother expressed suspicions about his sexuality.  He took it worse.  He always made fag jokes, but then he was an alcoholic anyway.  Ironically, when he took his own life in 1985, he was just starting to come around.  He had become civil with my second boyfriend, Paul.

  The real challenge about homosexuality is that it makes people confront their own sexual feelings and frustrations.  As my mother put it, most of her peers can't handle their own sexuality, let alone mine.  Sex has been such a dirty secret in North America.  It gets to the core of people's neuroses and hang ups.  Very few people can just engage in a sex act without getting into feelings of guilt, remorse or shame.

  We have to fight the 2,000 years of propoganda that sex can only happen within the sanctions of a God witnessed marriage between two people in love of the opposite sex.  Until Society gets beyond that, we have our work cut out for us.

CARBIZ,

I know we don't always find a meeting of the minds when it comes to GM (understatement there, eh?) but I found this post to be memorable. I'm sorry you had such a tough time early in your life, but you really sound like a wonderfully grounded guy...!

:wink:

Edited July 4, 2006 by The O.C.

[ehaase]

Not to turn this into anything religious, but I can't be loved by an imaginary figure.

[Burns]

those of you who are gay, do you not find women even remotely attractive? Women in every way are far more beautiful then men IMO.

no offence intended to anyone, im just curious. :AH-HA_wink:

[ocnblu]

We dig masculinity, you dig femininity. Pretty simple. Yes there are hot chicks, I acknowledge that, just as you notice hot dudes, I'm sure. But you don't want to get with those hot dudes, just the same, I don't want to get with hot chicks.

You cannot help what makes you pitch a tent. Neither can I. No rocket science involved.

[trinacriabob]

We dig masculinity, you dig femininity.  Pretty simple.  Yes there are hot chicks, I acknowledge that, just as you notice hot dudes, I'm sure.  But you don't want to get with those hot dudes, just the same, I don't want to get with hot chicks.

My armchair pyschologist's take on things is that both heterosexuality and homosexuality are somewhat dysfunctional.

Heterosexuality is dysfunctional because of the "battle of the sexes." It's always been there. It always will be. The divorce rate is at about 58%. That's a lot of people lining the coffers of attorneys. So sad. There is enough written on the different communication styles and needs of women and men. When the going gets really rough, the tough say "Adios." $h!, even the husband-wife team of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" have split up. When I was in high school, I was no naive to think that girls were, yes, plumbed differently but basically processed things the way that boys/men do (I don't have any sisters) and that beyond the difference in appearance and reproductive tract, there was little, if any, mental difference. Was I wrong! That's probably why I have experienced so many disagreements with them...and I just walk away. The most explosive is when women I know have taken the side of another woman when the facts in the case clearly indicated I was right....and these were college educated working women. It almost makes me cringe to think about standing before a female judge in a courtroom, wondering if her professional judgment is tinged by estrogen.

Homosexuality is dysfunctional because, in MY opinion, there is no balance in the 2 predators or 2 nesters pairing. I think there's a lack of complementarity (is that a word?). That's why men bond and hang out with each other. That's why women bond and hang out with each other. They were designed to be friends and collaborators. My friend from Long Beach was in therapy with his partner / boyfriend (whatever status) and the whole time I'm thinking: what's there to fix here...you can't even fix it....and you're lining this therapist's coffers? I remember what a PhD student I knew in Portland OR working toward becoming a counselor told me casually about his student case load or patient load -- "nowadays, you're lucky if 50% of the straight couples out there make it and you're lucky if 5% of the gay couples out there make it." Since I retain any kind of numerical info or statistics, I thought this was interesting...and probably true.

About PB's post, yes we ALL KNOW what is exemplary in both genders. But American society bristles at that. A lot of European cultures have no hangups with that...but we do. In fact, when heterosexual women put on make up or buy clothing to look like a particular woman they admire or heterosexual men go to the gym to pump up to approximate the bigger quads or biceps of the guy next to them, that's an admission of a standard they aspire to within their own gender....and it is innately homoerotic. People just can't talk about it. Look around...you will always see straight women really check out a flawless woman and you will always see straight men size up another male that tends toward the exemplary specimen. I would bet that operates in other species of the animal kingdom as well.

The solution is simple. We are born alone. We leave this world alone. There is nothing wrong with being alone. That's why God created dogs. Amen.

Edited July 5, 2006 by trinacriabob

[Burns]

We dig masculinity, you dig femininity.  Pretty simple.  Yes there are hot chicks, I acknowledge that, just as you notice hot dudes, I'm sure.  But you don't want to get with those hot dudes, just the same, I don't want to get with hot chicks.

You cannot help what makes you pitch a tent.  Neither can I.  No rocket science involved.

so its more like a feeling you cant control, like falling in love. it doesnt have anything to do with exploration (i.e, you're bored with women and you want to try new things).

[ocnblu]

Oh, there are lots of dabblers, I'm sure. You've probably dabbled, yourself. No big deal.

[trinacriabob]

Oh, there are lots of dabblers, I'm sure. 

As long as it's "dabble, dabble" and not "gobble, gobble."

I couldn't resist that play on words.

Edited July 4, 2006 by trinacriabob

[Igor2]

well not really --- trinacriabob --- there is always battle of positions ... many modern couples struggle with the way to organize families - and their couple functioning as such - it is not given anymore that a womwan will do such and the man the other way - the lines a blurred..

even in same-sex couples there is always struggle for positions - equality is never a given - one person might be better in social ciscumstances, and leave the other one feel excluded. One might be more assertive, and sometimes overrun the wishes of the other partner etc ... equality is always a struggle .. regardless of the sexual composition of the couple.

Secondly --- ocnblu --- I think this might be somewhat true, except for the temrs.. I am queer (not exclusively gay) and have a female partner who is also queer - but I can tell you that while I value both of her sides (masuline and feminine), her masculine - assertive side is what attracted me to her and what makes her special in my eyes. We often discuss celebrities, or mutual acquaintances, as "possible hookups" or "possible partners" (a game us and our friends started back in college over beer) and it became clear that I would rather have Clive Owens as a hookup than Jude Law (we were watching Closer on that occasion). She similarly prefers masculine women - she still has a poster of Marylin, in jeans and bra benchpressing (a great and rarely shown shot), and a very powerful poster of Angelina Jolie, just commanding presence with her eyes - Catheriune zeta Jones is also on her favorite list.

It is really a personal preference - some of our friends prefer strong personalities, while others do not, some prefer very feminine presentation (in guys of girls), others like the masculine one, and yet others really desire the middle ground...

it is different... but I have to partially agree with --- Burns --- As a queer man, having only slight preference for Women (based on familiarity and experience), I cannot imagine not being able to be attracted to half of the population . However, Burns, I do not know how you can look at all the men around you and not think that one of them could make you happy for years as a partner, or for one night as a hookup ....

Igor

Edited July 5, 2006 by Igor2

[tmp]

those of you who are gay, do you not find women even remotely attractive?

Well, put it this way, Angelina's smoking hot, and I'm gay, not dead.

But if Brad walks in, it's all over...

[Igor2]

Well, put it this way, Angelina's smoking hot, and I'm gay, not dead.

But if Brad walks in, it's all over...

ROFL ... TMP .. that is hilarious ....

Igor

[sciguy_0504]

You guys can have Angelina and Brad. She never looked good and he used to.

I personally believe the majority of humans are bisexual. True hetero and homosexuals are in the minority.

[Igor2]

You guys can have Angelina and Brad.  She never looked good and he used to.

I personally believe the majority of humans are bisexual.  True hetero and homosexuals are in the minority.

I believe in the same thing .. ever heard of Kinsey scale?

0 = exclusively hetero

6 = exclusively gay

1-5 = somewhere in between

Igor

[trinacriabob]

You guys can have Angelina and Brad.  She never looked good and he used to.

I like the way SciGuy thinks!

Angelina: Enough of those puckered lips. Are those real or collagen induced? The other thing is that, in some photos, she almost looks mulatta, like if she was really tanned, she would look like a light skinned black woman. Not that that's a bad thing (because Whitney looks good)...it's just that Angelina looks weird, as does Vanessa Williams with her blue contact lenses. Britney and Jessica basically look like cheap and slutty tarts...they better cash in now because their shelf life is limited.

Brad: $h!. That has got to be the most mass-media packaged / force-fed actor out there. I was talking to my cousins overseas and we were talking about flicks that are out there. His name came up and I said he looked like "un benzinaio"...a gas station jockey. They laughed and agreed. Men that the media push ought to look distinguished...and the Brad Pitts and Leonardo DiCaprios of the entertainment world are anything but that.

[tmp]

Angelina's lips are real. You can tell by the fact that they move like real lips (she can compress them, and they flatten when she smiles. As opposed to say, Meg Ryan's. Softform doesn't allow you to do that) She does have that exotic look going on, but I think that's fine. I just used her as a comic example. Actually, if I was going to hetero, I'd go there for Salma Hayek. I think she is just lovely.

And I chose Brad to go along with the joke. Personally, I'd like Vin Diesel.

In defense of Ms. Williams, those are not contacts. She has the exact same light bluish-green eyes that I do. She is also well known as one of the nicest people in the industry, even to people like me, who can do absolutely nothing for her except champion her sweetness on internet forums.

But I'd still rather sleep with her ex....

[usonia]

those of you who are gay, do you not find women even remotely attractive? Women in every way are far more beautiful then men IMO.

no offence intended to anyone, im just curious. :AH-HA_wink:

I absolutely believe the Kinsey scale has it right, sexuality is a spectrum and we all fall somewhere on it. I'm on the extreme homosexual end of that scale. I can honestly say I have never felt any sexual attraction for any women. As far back as I can remember, that feeling that you get when you see someone you find attractive, has always been from a guy.

I also have to disagree with Burns, I think a guy who is in good shape (I mean muscular, but not like a competitive bodybuilder) is way more attractive than a woman. It is definitely a masculine versus a feminine thing for me. I don't exactly find the nude female body revolting, but pretty darned close. Those boobs, ugh! Now that's not to say I can't see a (clothed) woman and say she's attractive, but there is definitely nothing sexual about it. I compare it to having a favorite color. I like green, but I have no idea why. It just appeals to me.

I do wonder at times what it would be like to see an attractive woman and get that same feeling I get from seeing a guy I find attractive. But, the truth is, I'm am so glad I'm 100% gay and not some shade of bisexual. It is just so much less confusing for me this way.

[Cory Wolfe]

I just can't look at a woman and see much of anything attractive.

[ocnblu]

My last "experience" with a woman was in 1994, so I don't see much happening there.

[CARBIZ]

I once had a very young co-worker ask me if I didn't miss the softness, the roudness of a woman. I patiently explained to him that that is exactly what I don't like: I don't like the jigglyness, the loosness of a woman's body, although I have to admit I have seen the odd, lean Asian woman who looks, well, boyish, I guess. I like hard, lean, muscular, whatever. Most women's bodies are out of shape, saggy and cellulite. Then again, a lot of men age badly, too! LOL

For me, a woman dressed up for the Red Carpet or a night on the town can look very hot, but as soon as she takes it all off - yech.

Forget Brad, he's yesterday's news. How about Tom Welling (Superman of Smallville?) Or Josh Hartnett (Pearl Harbor). Or Colin Farrell (Alexander the Great - Oh, finally they got the story right and admit he was gay!!!!!)

[Drew Dowdell]

Homosexuality is dysfunctional because, in MY opinion, there is no balance in the 2 predators or 2 nesters pairing.

I don't know if the whole post was a cut-paste job, but I wanted to address this point.

1. Who's to say that a man can't be a nester or a woman can't be a predator?

2. Who's to say that two predators or two nestors can't understand each other's nature enough to work together?

Personally, I'd consider both me and my partner to be 75% predator and 25% nester. We've come to an understanding of each other's needs and don't let that interfer with our love for each other.

[Paolino]

I've never had intercourse with a woman... I've actually gone as far as to talk about having sex with a friend, but it was just way too awkward when I went to go through with it.

I just can't do it. There's nothing about a woman that excites me physically. I love breasts, but not more than using them as pillows

Okay... lightening really bad now--shutting down.

[The O.C.]

those of you who are gay, do you not find women even remotely attractive? Women in every way are far more beautiful then men IMO.

no offence intended to anyone, im just curious. :AH-HA_wink:

I'm sure you've already gotten plenty of feedback on this.....but for me, I can appreciate a beautiful woman.....but even the most beautiful woman bearing the most incredible breasts will never get me aroused or sexually excited.

On the other hand, just touching a guy's bare chest with my hands will send my body into sensory overlead.....

It really is wired into the brain.

But you know what....it's not JUST sexual either. I know that I could never FALL in love with a woman....or want to spend the rest of my life with a woman....or share life's special moments with a woman....

It's emotional too.

I had a hard time even kissing my girlfriend in high school good night.....I found it so icky. BUT the first time I kissed a guy? Oh WOW.....the sparks flew like they never had before.

One time, a bunch of my straight friends and I were partying and all drunk and $h! and my friend flashed her boobs at me....and my other (straight guy) friends dared me to lick her tits/nipples. I took the dare....but man it was like I was totally grossed out.....! You can't fake those kinds of feelings.....

[The O.C.]

You cannot help what makes you pitch a tent.  Neither can I.  No rocket science involved.

ocnblu, that was beautiful, JUST beautiful.

I've never heard such a great, short, and too the point explanation of HOW IT WORKS!

Thanks bud......

[ocnblu]

:AH-HA_wink: