Nissan, Renault Want GM Stake

[regfootball]

I think Nissan would too.

Nissan's CVT has proven to be reliable in the Murano.

[Newbiewar]

Honestly... I have to agree. But Nissan & Renault might ba a great asset to helping GM with supplier relationships if Delphi continued to lumber about.

this would only make things worse for both of them... combined they would be the largest company by far, the worlds largest corperation... it would be a mess, it would be nice if ford would sponsor GM to do some research... ( i think GM does a better job at R&D) and they could split the costs, making it cheaper per vehicle to design things... but in todays market you cant have 2 massive corperations merge, because there is already a product overlap at both manufcatures...

and combining either nissan & GM or Ford or any combination would be suicidal...

DCX worked because Chrysler was based on volume and Damlyr-Benz was not...

Nissan and Runault worked because they started making fast & less thought out decissions, Ranault again is european based, and nissan is elsewhere, so their sales dont conflict... it just helps to have a global alliance, that way you can split costs of reseach, but once you have 2 guys on the same fighting feild running around trying to sell to the same guy your going to waste research and development money...

example, look at suzuki and Izusu, they were almost completely GM vehicles or GMDaewoo... GM's pawns... but GM made sure they would never conflict with the sales...

[VenSeattle]

I wouldn't want Ford & GM to merge... alliances (like with the 6-sp transmission) would work in both of their favor though. They could cut their R&D costs and share plants to ensure 100% capacity for manufacturing power trains.

[Newbiewar]

I wouldn't want Ford & GM to merge... alliances (like with the 6-sp transmission) would work in both of their favor though. They could cut their R&D costs and share plants to ensure 100% capacity for manufacturing power trains.

any merger of the top 8-9 automakers would be disasterous...

even a 20% stake could be devistating... thats all GM had in suzuki, and GM was pretty much calling the shots... as long as that 20% intrest gets the majority intrest of the board members it might as well be 100% merger

[Camino LS6]

"Insufficient data to give a meaningful response."

[Shantanu]

If Nissan/Renault bought GM outright (which they could easily do) they would have to deal with the hassles of the UAW, and taking on GM's $100 billion+ debt, etc.

With this deal, all they do is buy a piece of GM, enough to give them a say in the company.

Keep in mind, they'll only be owning 10-15% of GM, but they will own 100% of their own company (Nissan/Renault). That means, they only see a small fraction of any future profit GM makes, but they see 100% of the profits that Nissan/Renault makes. Therefore, maximizing the profits at Nissan/Renault is more important than maximizing profits at GM, because they only own a little bit of the latter. The main benefit in having a chunk of GM to them is that they can get rid of GM products that are strong in the market. Or they can force GM to share their technologies, or rebrand their best products as Nissan/Renault.

To people here who think that GM is going to get CVTs and the VQ engine in the Malibu. Are you f@#king kidding me? Why would they do that, if all it's going to do is make GM's cars more competetive vis a vis their own products. They're only seeing a portion of GM profits, but they see all of Nissan/Renault profits. So of course they're not going to share their technologies with GM, or do anything to make GM cars better.

Edited July 1, 2006 by Shantanu

[Newbiewar]

Weird coincidence that when Kerk says that Nissan-Renault want a stake in GM, that the share price rises...

Maybe Kerk wants more bang for his buck and could be looking to try and sell some shares. I hope it isn't true, but if it is, it goes to show how nutty the markets are, and how one nutbar can influence them.

I doubt I see it happening. GM is still a huge company, and the idea that a Japanese and FRENCH company want in really doesn't seem right.

now that i remember, Kirk Cannot change his majority shares with york on the board... he is now an insider...

Kirk Cannot sell... so what are his other motives?

are they to frighten amercan investors? people who actually have pride in American corperations?

[Newbiewar]

If Nissan/Renault bought GM outright (which they could easily do) they would have to deal with the hassles of the UAW, and taking on GM's $100 billion+ debt, etc.

With this deal, all they do is buy a piece of GM, enough to give them a say in the company.

Keep in mind, they'll only be owning 10-15% of GM, but they will own 100% of their own company (Nissan/Renault).  That means, they only see a small fraction of any future profit GM makes, but they see 100% of the profits that Nissan/Renault makes.  Therefore, maximizing the profits at Nissan/Renault is more important than maximizing profits at GM, because they only own a little bit of the latter.  The main benefit in having a chunk of GM to them is that they can get rid of GM products that are strong in the market.  Or they can force GM to share their technologies, or rebrand their best products as Nissan/Renault.

To people here who think that GM is going to get CVTs and the VQ engine in the Malibu.  Are you f@#king kidding me?    Why would they do that, if all it's going to do is make GM's cars more competetive vis a vis their own products.  They're only seeing a portion of GM profits, but they see all of Nissan/Renault profits.  So of course they're not going to share their technologies with GM, or do anything to make GM cars better.

their cars are in direct competition, its a conflict of intrest for the companys to be allies... and 20% more then just profit sake...

GM doesnt need any help, if they want to colaberate with their technologys they can discuss that and just make a pact... you didnt see GM BMW and DCX make any major investments durring the two mode hybrid they all co-developed....

or the 6speed transmission Ford & GM built...

This isnt about profits, because in my eyes there are better ways to spend approximately 4-5 billion to seek intrest...

This isnt about research and Development, that can be done with simple agreements...

This isnt about Kirk selling his shares, cause he cant...

This isnt about rebadging vehicles cause GM already has enough watered down vehicles, and Nissan also has a few of its own

one thing this would do... is open a gateway to hell for GM to place seige on the japanese market tho... the extremely profitable one for the japanese automakers...

it would allow Nissan&Ranualt access to all of GM's dealer network... & vice virsa, but i think its to nissans benifit, but perhaps GM could benifit from a japanese market...

[Camino LS6]

If it weren't for Bangle, a GM/BMW cooperative agreement could be interesting.

[Shantanu]

LMFAO, you think they're going to import mass numbers of GM cars to Japan? Yeah right. The Japanese don't want GM cars. And Nissan/Renault don't want to create more competition for themselves in their own market. GM is 15% of the global market for cars, and 25% in North America alone. This gives them a huge control of the marketplace, and they strategically gut GM in certain places to sneak in their own products for more market share and profits.

[pow]

If it weren't for Bangle, a GM/BMW cooperative agreement could be interesting.

It should be interesting what the two come up with their hybrid powertrain alliance.

Edit: Also, Germans seem to take good care of the foreign brands they buy. Look at the MINI, RR Phantom, Continental GT, Range Rover, and 300C/Charger/Magnum. I'd be interested in BMW's idea of a Camaro... that I'd probably buy.

Edited July 1, 2006 by empowah

[Newbiewar]

LMFAO, you think they're going to import mass numbers of GM cars to Japan?  Yeah right.  The Japanese don't want GM cars.  And Nissan/Renault don't want to create more competition for themselves in their own market.  GM is 15% of the global market for cars, and 25% in North America alone.  This gives them a huge control of the marketplace, and they strategically gut GM in certain places to sneak in their own products for more market share and profits.

well... people have to buy them here and ship them there... i dont see why a dealer network in japan wouldnt work to GM's advantage? remember lexus is struggling in japan... its not that everyone hates GM...

[Newbiewar]

It should be interesting what the two come up with their hybrid powertrain alliance.

you mean CAME up with...

as in the 2008 tahoe Hybrid...

[greg_nate]

Either way, it appears Kirk wants out and his money to boot.

Suffice it to say - You will not hear this in the press.

I totally agree, but with a slight twist. I do honestly believe that Kirk wants out...however, by creating this spin he sets himself with a win-win.

If the media and the stock market get frenzied enough for his shares to become profitable, then he sell out and wins.

However, if the partnership actually does come to fruition with Nissan and Renault each getting a 10% share, that puts Kirk in a highly powerful position. With Nissan and Renault on his side, he's got a 30% controlling interest. Then he could do whatever he wanted, such as get out the chopping block and start hacking.

Kirk clearly has no interest in automobiles - he has interest in money and power only. At nearly 90 years old, you'd think he'd be pulling a Buffet maneuver. Instead, this maniac still believes he can take his money to the grave with him.

I really don't think Nissan/Renault has anything to offer GM. Like you said so well with so few words, this is a chess game. We'll just have to wait and see if Wagoner blinks. If Wagoner caves, I think it will be ugly.

And I *STILL* don't know why no one has posted about the UAW response/repercussions yet. That is a huge part of this mix.

[Sixty8panther]

If it weren't for Bangle, a GM/BMW cooperative agreement could be interesting.

Back when the MB-Chrysler merger happened I predicted

that within a decade we'd see each of the big three join up

with a European counterpart:

Chrysler + Daimler Benz

Ford + BMW

GM + VW/Audi/Porsche

These days I'd rather see a partnershop with BMW all the way!

[ehaase]

Not instantly, but if Renault buys out GM, I personally don't see Chevrolet existing 15 years from now. 

In the unlikely event this deal happens, I personally see only Chevrolet and maybe Cadillac surviving. Epsilon II will be replaced with the Altima platform, and Zeta and Sigma will be replaced with Nissan's RWD platform. GM's 4 cylinder, V6, and Northstar engines will replaced with Nissan's comparable engines.

But I don't think it will happen because I don't see any benefits for Nissan and few benefits for GM. I think that the last 15 years have taught us that most big deals like this fail (BMW/Rover, Ford/Jaguar) or are only marginally successful (with the exception of Nissan/Renault, and there are some recent signs of weakness).

GM needs to sink or swim on its own.

Edited July 1, 2006 by ehaase

[BuddyP]

elf makes good motors

BTW, does renault even sell in the US anymore?ee

[Newbiewar]

In the unlikely event this deal happens, I personally see only Chevrolet and maybe Cadillac surviving.  Epsilon II will be replaced with the Altima platform, and Zeta and Sigma will be replaced with Nissan's RWD platform. GM's 4 cylinder, V6, and Northstar engines will replaced with Nissan's comparable engines.

But I don't think it will happen because I don't see any benefits for Nissan and few benefits for GM.  I think that the last 15 years have taught us that most big deals like this fail (BMW/Rover, Ford/Jaguar) or are only marginally successful (with the exception of Nissan/Renault, and there are some recent signs of weakness).

GM needs to sink or swim on its own.

the Nissan/Renault i beleive is not as successful as it seems... Goshen has stressed speedy development, and has created a unreliable product base... also he has manipulated his dealership network to seem good to shareholders...

[Shantanu]

well... people have to buy them here and ship them there... i dont see why a dealer network in japan wouldnt work to GM's advantage? remember lexus is struggling in japan... its not that everyone hates GM...

It's struggling in Japan because every single Lexus car there is also sold as a cheaper Toyota.

[evok]

Here is the issue that has not really been debated on here or in the press. Because, GMs market cap is so low, any partnership between the 3 will make the Worlds Largest auto maker a minority partner.

Assuming I am not missing something - this is not good business at this time for GM. They are coming from a position of weakness.

An equity swap like the GM-Fiat deal where GM had 20% in Fiat and Fiat had 5% in GM would not be favorable to GM.

[evok]

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A.../607010367/1148 Edited July 1, 2006 by evok

[The O.C.]

Some might argue that GM's product are even more horrible.

Nissans and Infinitis are not my favorite rides.....but I could HARDLY call them "horrible."

[The O.C.]

Hello. Is this Miss Mitchell? Miss Martha Mitchell? 

ROTFLMFAO

I LOVE her! But I love "Violet" from "9 To 5" even better......

"We're gonna need an extra locker for that hat......"

[The O.C.]

When GM owned 20% of Subaru, Suzuki, Fiat, etc. it gave them a lot of say over how these companies were run.  As such Subaru never got to be more than a niche player in the U.S. market, and Suzuki never amounted to much in the U.S.  Fiat was kept out of America, probably in no small part due to avoiding overlap with GM.

This deal will be all about eliminating overlap.  If these guys own 10-20%  of GM, that gives them a lot of clout.  They can cherry pick certain GM cars to add to their brands to make them look good.  And they can eliminate areas of overlap, and my guess is that the GM products will be the ones on the receving end.

I spent three years at Suzuki and I can guarantee you that GM had NO say in how the company was run......regardless of how big their share was.

GM was an invisible partner.....

It was a sharing of technologies and knowledge (and Tracker/Grand Vitaras)....not much else.

Remember there's alot more to Suzuki than just the north american car division. They have thriving ATV, motorcycle, and boat motor divisions and Suzuki in Japan is the 4th largest automobile company in sales.

Only in recent years with the rise of GM-DAT has there been any significant influence on ASMC or their products.

[The O.C.]

example, look at suzuki and Izusu, they were almost completely GM vehicles or GMDaewoo... GM's pawns...  but GM made sure they would never conflict with the sales...

Suzuki has never been based off of GM vehicles until the upcoming XL7. AND, who do you think THAT sharing of technologies is benefiting? XL7 gets a stretch, third-row of seats, AND the HF 3.6L V6....all benefiting SUZUKI buyers, not Equinox/Torrent buyers.

You could even argue the Forenza, Reno, and Verona Suzukis are based off Daewoo vehicles that were already in development before GM came along.....not based off of existing GM vehicles.

Isuzu, as of recent, is a different matter on the other hand.

[The O.C.]

even a 20% stake could be devistating... thats all GM had in suzuki, and GM was pretty much calling the shots... as long as that 20% intrest gets the majority intrest of the board members it might as well be 100% merger

Once again, GM never really called ANY shots at Suzuki......even now, they are more or less equal partners relative to the GM-DAT products and the revised XL7.

You underestimate the power and strength of the global Suzuki.

[Angry Dad]

Let's see... GM "merges" with Renault / Nissan...

Wouldn't that give the UAW representation over workers at Nissan plants in the US without the typical union busting done by the transplant management?

As if the management of any of these transplants doesn't spread a few lies and threats to keep unions out.....

Edited July 1, 2006 by Angry Dad

[evok]

Comment from detnews.com:

Fri. 06/30/06 07:03 PM

Three_way_partnership

Kirk Kerkorian, a major stakeholder in General Motors is now near a bankrupt ( since 2000 and for a lot of years all the cash in Gm is going to the UAW's family, and zero for the stakeholder ).Kirk's money is now the prisoner of wagoner. The concept of GM-Nissan-Renault is a concept of the 70', and we are in 2006...

Fernandez-Endeweld, Montréal, Qc Canada

[4gm]

HA-ha!!!!!!!!!!

(said like Nelson Muntz)

[BigPontiac]

Almost sounds like Kirk is going for the old "greenmail" play...expecting GM to pay him to go away with some of the cash they've generated lately from GMAC, etc.

[Hey Now]

Least we forget that GM and Nissan/Renault already have had a joint venture for the last 5 years:

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2001/.../010306-01.html

[Shantanu]

Least we forget that GM and Nissan/Renault already have had a joint venture for the last 5 years:

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2001/.../010306-01.html

I'm not against joint ventures. If Nissan wants to help GM and vice-versa, then let them come together and manufacture VQ engines and 6-speed automatic transmission for mutual benefit, in an independent entity jointly owned by both companies (like Shanghai-GM). I don't like the idea of Nissan controlling a chunk of GM and having a say in how the company is run.

[Shantanu]

That said I don't think Nissan's VQ engine is much better than GM's 3.6 used in the CTS. GM makes about as much power in their CTS with the 3.6 as Nissan does in the G35 sedan with the 3.5, except GM does it with 87 fuel and Nissan needs 93.

[BigPontiac]

That said I don't think Nissan's VQ engine is much better than GM's 3.6 used in the CTS.  GM makes about as much power in their CTS with the 3.6 as Nissan does in the G35 sedan with the 3.5, except GM does it with 87 fuel and Nissan needs 93.

That octane requirement depends actually. My old 2001 Pathfinder SE 3.5 had that Nissan motor. The owner's manual showed that it needed a minimum of 91 octane, however that was RON (Research Octane Number). The US uses the AKI (Anti-Knock Index) octane rating.

87 AKI = 91 RON

The "premium fuel only" sticker on the gas door lied! It ran fine on 87 and still produced good power.

Wikipedia explanation

[ShadowDog]

I'd hate to see such a pitiful end for one of America's great companies. 

Nissan/Renault will pick and choose which GM lines they want, shut everything else.  They'll raid GM for technology and factories.  GM brands will die.  GM's heritage will die out.  All that will remain are some Silverados badged as Renaults

I'm not about to jump into any wagon that suggests an immediate business strategy on the part of an investor, regardless if that investor is another auto-maker or partnership thereof. All this talk of this engine or that transmission, like they are the holy grail to all auto-makers, isn't what this is about.

Remembering the talk of when Kerkorian bought up the shares is an example, where all this same fear and speculation came up in suggested 'plots' for the future demise of GM. In the end, all Kerkorian did was sit on his shares, never remotely amounting to any kind of threat based on the doomsday predictions of individuals here.

"Insufficient data to give a meaningful response."

That's my opinion as well. There's nothing significant here but for what the evidence shows in how Kerkorian just wants to unload his poor investment in GM. For Nissan-Renault, it won't amount to much either, but for what they may be able to accomplish together. The way I see it, they could be investing in the future demise of a company that can't pull its pants up just to pick through and collect the pieces for themselves to benefit by...but dare I go, doomsday speculating...bad idea.

Suzuki has never been based off of GM vehicles until the upcoming XL7.  AND, who do you think THAT sharing of technologies is benefiting?  XL7 gets a stretch, third-row of seats, AND the HF 3.6L V6....all benefiting SUZUKI buyers, not Equinox/Torrent buyers.

You could even argue the Forenza, Reno, and Verona Suzukis are based off Daewoo vehicles that were already in development before GM came along.....not based off of existing GM vehicles.

Isuzu, as of recent, is a different matter on the other hand.

Suzuki had a lot to gain in assisted development of the original GMDAT products. It is true that the Daewoo vehicles were already in successful development before GM came along, and I tend to think it's a good thing GM didn't have much input in their design or engineering. GM certainly didn't need to rebadge these for themselves; (Aveo, Aveo5, Optra, Optra5, Epica), but their entry in GM Canada has been a good thing due to the much larger small-car market that's appreciated.

We'll just have to see what's down the pipe on this one. As far as I can tell, Nissan-Renault may be looking at this with tunnel vision while Kerkorian is simply trying to fast-track the deal as if attempting to unload a few hundred vacuum cleaners onto someone's doorstep in record time. I'm betting there's no real winner at the end of this...aside from what company arrangement is made between GM and Nissan-Renault for future development, if any, between them.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I'm betting there's no real winner at the end of this...aside from what company arrangement is made between GM and Nissan-Renault for future development, if any, between them.

there is only supposed to be "one" winner. anything else would be gravy.

[haypops]

I spent three years at Suzuki and I can guarantee you that GM had NO say in how the company was run......regardless of how big their share was.

Do yu have any inside information on the Suzuki court case against Conumer Reports. I love that story.

My suzuki bike was flawless and my friends 110,00 Chevy metro three cylinder suzuki with still tight as a drum when I drove it. Pretty impressive cars. My #1 Son in law drives many vehicles for work. The Suzuki aerio was his choice as most underated and the 350Z as most overated.

[MyerShift]

Nothing good could ever come of this.

Kerk Kerkorian is best viewed as a villain in the auto industry.

More of my strong opinion to come...

Edited July 1, 2006 by MyerShift

[Cortazzo]

The deal makes sense because there really isn't that much overlap. Nissan sells the bulk of their cars in Japan, Gm in the USA, and Renault in Europe. Yes, Nissan sells many cars in the USA, but their market share is only a few percent. If they can collaborate on technology and platform sharing, it should theoretically reduce costs for all parties and make them more competitive. But I didn't really understand this deal to be a merger of sorts, more of a strategic alliance. A merger would be far messier and probably less beneficial to GM. An alliance on the other hand would allow GM to keep their structure and identity, but lower costs and R&D.

For those that suggested that GM and Ford team up rather than this, there could be anti-trust issues considering how anti-detroit this administration is. And do you really want GM to have ANYTHING to do with Ford's management structure??? They are by far the worst in the industry IMO.

[MyerShift]

For those that suggested that GM and Ford team up rather than this, there could be anti-trust issues considering how anti-detroit this administration is.  And do you really want GM to have ANYTHING to do with Ford's management structure???  They are by far the worst in the industry IMO.

Oh, I agree in staying away from Ford.

However, my other concerns regard Kerkorian. He is only doing this to make money. How well any of the companies involved perform after the business deal is less than secondary.

[evok]

The deal makes sense because there really isn't that much overlap.  Nissan sells the bulk of their cars in Japan, Gm in the USA, and Renault in Europe. 

Nissan is larger in the US than Japan.

GM US is less than half of their global sales.

Renault is mostly Europe.

[enzl]

Nissan is larger in the US than Japan.

GM US is less than half of their global sales.

Renault is mostly Europe.

I was thinking this is a play to get GM's stars: Daewoo & entre into the Chinese market, where I believe the French are weak, the Japanese stigmatized by historical animus & GM China's huge successes recently.....

Not a perfect match, but it might make sense...

[NOS2006]

Nissan is larger in the US than Japan.

GM US is less than half of their global sales.

Renault is mostly Europe.

That's part of what makes this a good idea, to me..

Do you think a GM/Nissan/Renault merger could strengthen Japanese sales? I think it could.

Renault is mostly European, which is where they make some of the smallest, best MPG cars out there.. am I wrong? Spread Renault's tactics to the US and rest of the world through Nissan and GM and that'd help all three gain profits.

Nissan is doing damn good in the US (around here at least).. Seems like they (along with Renault and the small cars) could team with GM to make a real good, solid team.

[Matt276]

Seems like Kerkorian would like to see Ghosn in the GM family, maybe to replace Rick. This could be interesting.

Actually, I'd like to see Ghosn take over GM. Could become the return to greatness we are all waiting for. GM needs a real leader, and I don't think Rick is the guy.

And Nissan is not supposed to used Toyota's hybrid technology? Now with all the money of GM-Nissan-Renault put together, they could develop their own system to compete Toyota.

I think it is good for GM.

Edited July 2, 2006 by Matt276

[evok]

I was thinking this is a play to get GM's stars: Daewoo & entre into the Chinese market, where I believe the French are weak, the Japanese stigmatized by historical animus & GM China's huge successes recently.....

Not a perfect match, but it might make sense...

In concept I love the 3 companies merged together.

But in practice I see this as nothing more than a game by Kerkorian.

GM's market cap is too weak for a merger of equals at this time.

GM has to much growth potential in stock value over the next 24 months for the institutional investors or BOD to sell out.

Even an equity stake would not make sense to me looking at it from GMs perspective. Selling 20% of the company for 3 billion with 14 billion awaiting them if the GMAC deal goes through.

I will be very surprised if anything happens.

GM has everything to loose and nothing to gain in this deal.

Renault and Nissan have nothing to offer at this time and everything to gain if there is any truth to their interest beyond a dinner conversation.

Even access to Japan is not a reason.

Edited July 2, 2006 by evok

[prontostar]

i can see it now...

the 2010 chevy malibu maxima

the 2010 pontiac g635

the 2010 nissan versaveo

the good news for nissan would be that someone would actually buy their full-size trucks.

[c0ld_phuz10n]

Well at least it is not Toyota right?

As far as Japanese auto makers go Nissan is my favorite, so I think that a partnership with them could be alright. Also before they started working with Renault Nissan was having its fair share of problems, so I could see that experience being useful for GM now.

// c0ld_phuz10n

p.s. I am in Tokyo on foreign exchange, and my host family drives an old Mini rover...how pimp

[Newbiewar]

Seems like Kerkorian would like to see Ghosn in the GM family, maybe to replace Rick. This could be interesting.

Actually, I'd like to see Ghosn take over GM. Could become the return to greatness we are all waiting for. GM needs a real leader, and I don't think Rick is the guy.

And Nissan is not supposed to used Toyota's hybrid technology? Now with all the money of GM-Nissan-Renault put together, they could develop their own system to compete Toyota.

I think it is good for GM.

Ghosn is NOT a long term leader... he makes things look good by making short cuts, and speeding things up...

but as you can see his reputation at Nissan is quickly deminishing...

[Newbiewar]

Comment from detnews.com:

Fri. 06/30/06 07:03 PM

Three_way_partnership

Kirk Kerkorian, a major stakeholder in General Motors is now near a bankrupt ( since 2000 and for a lot of years all the cash in Gm is going to the UAW's family, and zero for the stakeholder ).Kirk's money is now the prisoner of wagoner. The concept of GM-Nissan-Renault is a concept of the 70', and we are in 2006...

Fernandez-Endeweld, Montréal, Qc Canada

Kirk is his own prisoner, hes the one that put York on the board, hes the one who made the decision to purchase the shares, hes the one who decided to take out a loan for 500 million to pay for additional shares...

and if hes almost bankrupt because he cant touch his money, whos fault is that? you want to invest you want to be part of the worlds largest corperation, you want to have your fingers in the till? and you want to complain?

[evok]

Kirk is his own prisoner, hes the one that put York on the board, hes the one who made the decision to purchase the shares, hes the one who decided to take out a loan for 500 million to pay for additional shares...

and if hes almost bankrupt because he cant touch his money, whos fault is that? you want to invest you want to be part of the worlds largest corperation, you want to have your fingers in the till? and you want to complain?

OK - ?