GM PLANS PLUG-IN HYBRID

[regfootball]

here

you guys want more juicy info, g.M.-i has a topic with more interesting links. the scuttlebut is Saab was ready to debut a plug in hybrid at Stockholm and GM 'pulled the plug' almost literally at the very last minute. Another GM brand will be getting credit for the plug in hybrid. Like I said, mosey over there and you will find it.

its all to common these days to find all the new news articles at that site......i never see them here anymore...........

GM, the plug in hybrid king?

[regfootball]

did gm screw saab's plug in hybrid?

[regfootball]

responses

This is amazing. Big Oil is definitely scared $h!less over the rise in popularity of ‘high-mileage’ vehicles. The electric car from GM was ahead of its time by only a few years. However, this period in America was just enough to allow Big Oil to work with Big Auto and kill the concept. I’m not so sure that so early a death would happen today.

The plugin hybrid is the next target that Big Auto/Oil will try with all their might to derail for as long as possible. SAAB is such an amazing brand of car and this definitely would have increased its profile here in the U.S.

Looks like ‘plugin’ will continue to be a novelty until someone has the balls to stop gluing shut the outlet.

[pow]

WTF!!!

Sometimes (actually, 99% of the time) GM really deserves special criticism. They moan and bitch about Saab... well, HELLO! What are they going to do... change it to a G6 cabrio instead?

[pow]

With that said, I love the wheels and paint...

Something about it just makes it seem so crystal coooool.

Edited June 28, 2006 by empowah

[regfootball]

WTF!!!

Sometimes (actually, 99% of the time) GM really deserves special criticism. They moan and bitch about Saab... well, HELLO! What are they going to do... change it to a G6 cabrio instead?

IF I WERE A BETTING MAN, I WOULD SAY THE 2008 MALIBU WILL BE THAT PLUG IN HYBRID

they said it was being introed now in Detroit at NAIAS Jan 07. great time for new model intros.

or saturn maybe.

Edited June 28, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

i am so surprised no one has commented on this.

if GM hits the market first with a plug in hybrid.....this blows away the hybrid hype for toyota. THIS IS HUGE!

[V6powerr]

Poor places like Puerto Rico which is saturated with Mitsubishi, Suzuki, and Toyota with alot of Honda will have a hard time buying from them because of the belief that GM cars are inferior but when this comes out there it will gain the status of new kid on the block that Toyota had in the 60s and 70s it takes time with peoples perceptions but when you show them the truth they will strongly consider it on their next purchase! 3.9 liters per 100 kilometers is very good for them down there and for us up here too! I also know that they have biofuel from sugarcane available there too!

[aaaantoine]

Actually, I'm surprised I haven't commented either.

If the cost-return analysis indicates that a driver would break even on a plug-in hybrid after fewer than 36,000 miles, then HELL YES! It would be the new golden egg!

Though if I were a betting man, I'd wager that Toyota would magically beat GM to the punch.

Edit: changed mileage to something more realistic. Also, here's my mathematical reasoning:

36,000 / 30 mpg = 1200 gallons

36,000 / 80 mpg = 450 gallons

1200 * $3/gal = $3600

450 * $3/gal = $1350

If the plug-in hybrid system only adds $2000 to the cost, then you will be saving money after 36,000 miles. Even earlier if gas prices go up.

Edited June 29, 2006 by aaaantoine

[jbartley]

this is REALLY old news.

and plug-in hybrids are a waste of resources. period.

[cmattson]

I beg to differ. You give me 100 miles to use every day & allow me to recharge it at night, and I could use it as a commuter vehicle for YEARS without every using the gasoline engine. It'd be a perfect "2nd vehicle" for any family.

[aaaantoine]

this is REALLY old news.

and plug-in hybrids are a waste of resources. period.

Look, if the point of a plug-in hybrid is to use as little gas in automobiles as possible, shouldn't we at least look into it?

If that energy is coming off the grid, it's coming from a number of other fuels, such as solar energy, wind, geothermal, nuclear, and hydroelectric. Not just fossil fuels. Some people, like Bobo, produce their OWN energy with solar arrays and the like.

[PurdueGuy]

this is REALLY old news.

and plug-in hybrids are a waste of resources. period.

Would you like to justify your opinion, or are we just supposed to assume that because you (whoever you are) said it, that it's true?

[Igor2]

Would you like to justify your opinion, or are we just supposed to assume that because you (whoever you are) said it, that it's true? 

Well for one by making a car a plug in - you add batteries making it further less economical once the juice is gone and you are running on gas

Then you are aadding to the upfron costs. .hybrids are already expensive, and adding more batteries, wiring and whatnot will further up the price.

Third, Ford is still struggling to figure out how to make the system such that something like an electric surge will not toast your 40k vehicle . - or simply damage something that would be claimed as warranty defect.

And finally, the 80mpg is very misleading.. I am waiting for people to finally start reporting the "miles per megawatt" of their electric engines so wee can see who much they use.. in regular hybrids this is not necessary, since the electricity is free, but with plug ins, you are actualyl PAYING for the electricity going to your car..

If you consider that running your Central air can rack up good $200 mothly electric bill, how much do you think charging a huge battery pack every day will run you....

Plug - ins are a good idea, but for now a lot of people have their reservations .. because of the fact that they are simply shifting the cost from GAS to ELECTRICITY .. plug ins are a super niche vehicles.

Of course, this is besides the fact that Gas electric hybrids are pure and simple fad... a simple Diesel engine could beat Toyota's precious invention ... I am waiting to see which one of big three will finally bring over a good 4 or 6 cyl Diesel to be dropped in a midsize sedan, and put Camry Hybrid's 39mpg to shame by simple old school technology. (now imagine that diesel paired with a hybrid, putting the Prius to shame)

Igor

[Flybrian]

Imagine a scenario where your home's excess power generation from roof-mounted solar panels is used to power your vehicle and your house with a small amount being sold back to your local power grid.

Cars are now close to being a free good.

[PurdueGuy]

Well for one by making a car a plug in - you add batteries making it further less economical once the juice is gone and you are running on gas

Then you are aadding to the upfron costs. .hybrids are already expensive, and adding more batteries, wiring and whatnot will further up the price.

Third, Ford is still struggling to figure out how to make the system such that something like an electric surge will not toast your 40k vehicle . - or simply damage something that would be claimed as warranty defect.

And finally, the 80mpg is very misleading.. I am waiting for people to finally start reporting the "miles per megawatt" of their electric engines so wee can see who much they use.. in regular hybrids this is not necessary, since the electricity is free, but with plug ins, you are actualyl PAYING for the electricity going to your car..

If you consider that running your Central air can rack up good $200 mothly electric bill, how much do you think charging a huge battery pack every day will run you....

Plug - ins are a good idea, but for now a lot of people have their reservations .. because of the fact that they are simply shifting the cost from GAS to ELECTRICITY .. plug ins are a super niche vehicles.

Of course, this is besides  the fact that Gas electric hybrids are pure and simple fad... a simple Diesel engine could beat Toyota's precious invention ... I am waiting to see which one of big three will finally bring over a good 4 or 6 cyl Diesel to be dropped in a midsize sedan, and put Camry Hybrid's 39mpg to shame by simple old school technology. (now imagine that diesel paired with a hybrid, putting the Prius to shame)

Igor

See? a respectable arguement. That wasn't so tough. lol

We'll have to wait & see what the costs & such are to see to what extent the technology pays for itselt (or doesn't). I'm not sure I'd call gas/electric hybrids a "pure & simple" fad. I'd agree it's a fad, but it's also technology which currently teeters on the line between worth it or not, and each gasoline price increase pushes it further toward being worthwhile.

My last break-even analysis showed the upcoming Saturn Vue Green Line as the only hybrid likely to pay for itself early enough in it's life to justify itself financially. The trouble with analyzing whether the technology is "worth it", though, is putting a price on the value of burning less oil. To many americans, that's worth pretty much zero - if it doesn't touch their wallet directly, they don't care. Others have reasons to care, and that increases the value of the technology.

I'd also love to see some more diesels, as well as diesel hybrids. Technology needs to be pushed in many directions...

[aaaantoine]

Make my next car a plug-in bio-diesel Aveo hybrid.

128 MPGs!!!!!1!!

Sorry, couldn't resist the idea.

[goblue1999]

Actually, I'm surprised I haven't commented either.

If the cost-return analysis indicates that a driver would break even on a plug-in hybrid after fewer than 36,000 miles, then HELL YES!  It would be the new golden egg!

Though if I were a betting man, I'd wager that Toyota would magically beat GM to the punch.

Edit: changed mileage to something more realistic.  Also, here's my mathematical reasoning:

36,000 / 30 mpg = 1200 gallons

36,000 / 80 mpg =  450 gallons

1200 * $3/gal = $3600

450 * $3/gal = $1350

If the plug-in hybrid system only adds $2000 to the cost, then you will be saving money after 36,000 miles.  Even earlier if gas prices go up.

where in your calculation is the cost of the electrical energy that flows through the "plug"

[Igor2]

See? a respectable arguement.   That wasn't so tough. lol

I'd also love to see some more diesels, as well as diesel hybrids.  Technology needs to be pushed in many directions...

you realize I was not the person you were originally responding to, right ?

BTW .. I am on the same boat.. unless i can afford a RWD performance car like BMW 3 series, my next car is a diesel (hybrid) wagon.... probabl from one of the FoMoCo divisions... unless they do not have any, then I will look elsewhere...

Diesels are the way of the future.. and it is about time US realized that.

Igor

[haypops]

Of course, this is besides  the fact that Gas electric hybrids are pure and simple fad... a simple Diesel engine could beat Toyota's precious invention ... I am waiting to see which one of big three will finally bring over a good 4 or 6 cyl Diesel to be dropped in a midsize sedan, and put Camry Hybrid's 39mpg to shame by simple old school technology. (now imagine that diesel paired with a hybrid, putting the Prius to shame)

Igor

I'm sorry that I failed to save the link, but I am sure that I read that Toyota said the hybrid was just an interim silution until they got their diesel engines going.

[regfootball]

this is REALLY old news.

and plug-in hybrids are a waste of resources. period.

what's the retirement plan like there at EXXONMOBIL???

its time for American consumers to MARCH on the offices of exxonmobil and other oil companies. bet those rich fat cats would be surprised to see oh, 100,000 pissed off people blocking their exit from the underground parking garage.

Edited June 30, 2006 by regfootball

[greg_nate]

i am so surprised no one has commented on this.

if GM hits the market first with a plug in hybrid.....this blows away the hybrid hype for toyota.  THIS IS HUGE!

We've been talking about this on the other site. My handle is "racy" over there.

The thing that originally caught my attention was not as much that GM had a Plug-In hybrid, but that they intentionally suppressed its introduction.

I've been having trouble coming up with a logical reason for their moves. Either they are intending a PR bombshell next January, or they are on the verge of their biggest blunder to date. The thing with GM these days is, either option is plausible.

I managed to dig up the original press release with the Plug-In wording still in tact.

I'd love to hear other opinions on GM's move regarding this.

[regfootball]

The thing with GM these days is, either option is plausible.

yup. ain't that the truth.

[Ghost Dog]

Hmm The Continental Teves Integrated starter generator system is used in GM's Full size hybrids. The Electric Rear drive unit in the Saab is unusual though. And I can't find info on it at continentals site.

Basically 2 systems.

The ISG Start stop system + Electric RWD.

Interesting system plug in charging and all.

But don't expect plug in charging from GM. My Impression is that GM overreacts to Failure. As Diesel left a bad taste in GM's mouth to the point of absolutley refusing to develope it for a longggg time. The E.V.1 has left such a bad sentiment at GM they destroyed them all. Anything even remotely reminding them of the Electric Car is'nt going to happen.

[LTB51]

I beg to differ.  You give me 100 miles to use every day & allow me to recharge it at night, and I could use it as a commuter vehicle for YEARS without every using the gasoline engine.  It'd be a perfect "2nd vehicle" for any family.

From some other docs on http://www.calcars.org, it is more like 30 miles per charge on electricity. Still very good though. And of course that will change as technology changes.

[LTB51]

Of course, this is besides  the fact that Gas electric hybrids are pure and simple fad... a simple Diesel engine could beat Toyota's precious invention ... I am waiting to see which one of big three will finally bring over a good 4 or 6 cyl Diesel to be dropped in a midsize sedan, and put Camry Hybrid's 39mpg to shame by simple old school technology. (now imagine that diesel paired with a hybrid, putting the Prius to shame)

Prius already gets better fuel economy than the 4cyl MT Jetta TDI.

This is the best test I have seen so far:

http://www.drivingtelevision.com/segmentvi...call=&segtitle=

Jetta: 6.8L/100KM (34 MPG)

Prius: 5.2L/100KM (45 MPG)

I'm not sure if it is worth the extra cost, but hybrids will almost certainly improve at a rate greater than diesels.

And while diesels have improved, they are still relatively dirty.

Air Polution Scores:

Prius 9.5 out of 10 in Cali, 8 out of 10 elsewhere:

http://www.epa.gov/emissweb/E-TOYOTA-Prius-06.htm

Jetta 1 out of 10:

http://www.epa.gov/emissweb/E-VOLKSWAGEN-Jetta-06.htm

[Guest Josh]

I made some calls, did some research. The issue with these are the batteries. Plain and simple, the concept/production is too far away. The batteries are the problem which is resulting in this not being debuted when it should have been.

BUT I WILL SAY THIS

The "plug in" hybrid is just the beginning from GM. I've been able to find out many, MANY intriguing things that the company has coming before 2010.

[regfootball]

Prius already gets better fuel economy than the 4cyl MT Jetta TDI. 

This is the best test I have seen so far:

http://www.drivingtelevision.com/segmentvi...call=&segtitle=

Jetta: 6.8L/100KM (34 MPG)

Prius: 5.2L/100KM (45 MPG)

I'm not sure if it is worth the extra cost, but hybrids will almost certainly improve at a rate greater than diesels.

And while diesels have improved, they are still relatively dirty.

Air Polution Scores:

Prius 9.5 out of 10 in Cali, 8 out of 10 elsewhere:

http://www.epa.gov/emissweb/E-TOYOTA-Prius-06.htm

how much toxic material is in the Jetta's battery?...oops.  it don't have one

Jetta 1 out of 10:

http://www.epa.gov/emissweb/E-VOLKSWAGEN-Jetta-06.htm

[haypops]

LTB:

I just heard a discussion of alternative fuels from the Peterson Automotive

Museum. Europe has passed laws and all manufacturers have complied with particulate filters and also some urea injection. Tailpipe emissions are way down. Also the figures you posted were no doubt accomplished with dirty diesel which has been replaced this month with low sulfur diesel making all possible.

If electric hybrids (non plug in) were so good, the figures for power production by regenerative braking would be made plublic.

[regfootball]

I made some calls, did some research. The issue with these are the batteries. Plain and simple, the concept/production is too far away. The batteries are the problem which is resulting in this not being debuted when it should have been.

BUT I WILL SAY THIS

The "plug in" hybrid is just the beginning from GM. I've been able to find out many, MANY intriguing things that the company has coming before 2010.

toyota has already been spewing propaganda against plug-in hybrids...says the prius battery will last 150,000 miles + or 'the life of the vehicle' and that plug in hybrids run the batteries to extreme far too much which shortens battery life. The Prius' battery runs at 50-70% charge all the time, which the claim improves its lifespan. I've always heard its better to drain and fill, not charge a little and not all the way. Toyota could be spewing sh1t as usual here.

Edited July 5, 2006 by regfootball

[Flybrian]

Air Polution Scores:

Prius 9.5 out of 10 in Cali, 8 out of 10 elsewhere:

http://www.epa.gov/emissweb/E-TOYOTA-Prius-06.htm

The Buick LaCrosse gets 9.5/10 in California and 6/10 elsewhere and consider the 'technology' in that car. There are many other SULEV-II vehicles in Cali as well, like the 3800 Grand Prix, Spectra, Fusion, Galant...

[PurdueGuy]

I've always heard its better to drain and fill, not charge a little and not all the way.

162612[/snapback]

Depends on the battery type. I don't recall what types do what, or what type the Prius has, though.

[Spike]

Depends on the battery type.  I don't recall what types do what, or what type the Prius has, though.

164882[/snapback]

Prius = nickel metal hydride

Edited July 10, 2006 by Spike

[Spike]

Interesting article....

http://www.carlist.com/autonews/2005/autonews_94.html

Why do we need a Nickel Metal Hydride Battery (NiMH) in a Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV)?

By Lou Ann Hammond

Hybrid sales are phenomenal. Every vehicle that is a hybrid is selling out virtually before it hits the store lot. Lexus PR folks have said that there will be 24,000 Lexus RX 400hs produced this year and that 11,000 are already pre-sold.

It doesn’t make sense that with hybrids so hot that the Manufacturers would dole out hybrids so sparingly, not really letting the public see the full demand of the hybrid. Is there a demand for hybrids or is the hype for the 100,000 or so hybrids brought about because there are so few hybrids. We know the demand for vehicles was over 16,000,000 last year because there were over 16,000,0000 produced and over 16,000,0000 sold. In fact, production outweighed sales. Production of hybrids have never outweighed sales of hybrids. Why aren’t more hybrids being produced?

There are four major suppliers of automotive Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries; Japan’s Panasonic and Sanyo, China’s GP Industries (Goldpeak), U.S. based Johnson Controls and Cobasys. Cobasys has a joint venture with Energy Conversion Devices (ECD) and Chevron Texaco on their NiMH batteries. Goldpeak supplies buses in Asia and Europe. Ford uses Sanyo’s batteries, Toyota uses Panasonics. Honda uses both. Johnson Controls is just starting a pilot operation at their Hanover, Germany facility

The one company that has been quoted as saying there is a shortage of batteries is Ford Motor Company. Ford uses Sanyo for their Ford Escape hybrid batteries. Ford is expected to build 20,000 Escape hybrids in 2005, but would like to build more, save for the lack of batteries. Ford is in talks with Sanyo to boost production. Ford cannot just go to another battery maker and buy these batteries off the shelf like one would do if they needed a lead acid battery.

The Nickel Metal Hydride battery powers everything from cellular phones to hybrid electric vehicles. According to Cobasys, the first use of a NiMH battery was in the form of a Nickel hydrogen battery used in aerospace applications. A NiMH is the configuration of a battery using metal hydride hydrogen storage materials as one of the battery electrodes. You see NiMH batteries in solid state format in the batteries you use today in cameras, blackberrys, PDAs and palm pilots and a slue of other gadgetry. Making a NiMH for automotive use requires cranking amps that are not needed in the gadgetry.

NiMH is a rechargeable battery technology that has approximately 30-50% more charge per pound than nickel cadmium (NiCD). Cadmium is a toxic heavy metal that can leach into the water supply if the case breaks and harm people and animals that ingest it. Introduced in the early 1990s, NiMH uses nickel and metal hydride plates with potassium hydroxide as the electrolyte. NiMH batteries do not suffer quite as much from the "memory effect" as do nickel cadmium batteries, but still require complete discharges in order to obtain the most efficiency and longest life. Nickel Metal Hydride batteries have pretty much eclipsed the nickel cadmium battery in solid state use and are not even considered for automotive use. NiMH and lithium-ion (Li-ion) and even newer lithium-polymer batteries, lithium-based formulations, pose less of a threat to the public than NiCd.

Johnson Controls is the latest company to start producing automotive NiMH batteries. The NiMH cell was developed using technologies from its Varta Battery Automotive Business in Europe. "HEVs represent

a small but rapidly growing part of the modern-day automotive market," said Lou Senunas, vice president of advanced battery and hybrid technology for Johnson Controls. "With our technological strengths, long-term experience, and manufacturing capacity, we are well-positioned to charge forward as a key supplier of battery technology and products to the emerging HEV segment."

A hybrid vehicle is a standard vehicle with electric power assist. A hybrid is different from an electric vehicle in that it doesn’t need to be plugged in for the battery to work. It has what we call regenerative braking. The hybrid can be a mild or full hybrid, but the definition of a hybrid is that it is able to run on its own for a short time. All hybrids still have lead acid batteries, but most - not all - hybrids have Nickel Metal hydridge batteries to assist in fuel savings and lower emissions.

Let’s start with a mild hybrid, such as a General Motors (GM) pickup. According to Joe LoGrasso, Engineering Manager of Electrical Power and Advanced Systems for GM Global Electrical Engineering Center, GM uses a mild hybrid system that employs three 12 volt batteries and a fly-wheel alternator starter for a twelve-fifteen percent savings in fuel. This doesn’t seem like much and could probably be achieved just as easily if you took some of the weight out of the vehicle. There are some very simple reasons that make a mild hybrid important.

The fly wheel is a motor generator. It helps store energy in a 42 volt system. There is also the difference, according to Tom Dougherty, Director of Advanced Battery and Advanced Systems for Johnson Controls, in the cold start. The first is that it reduces cranking time. A regular internal combustion engine vehicle take 3/4 to 1.5 seconds of pumping gas to start. This passes gas through the engine, unused and causes the most amount of Nitrous Oxide (NOX) and hydrocarbons. These are called pollutants which are not good to breath. GMs mild hybrid cold start is 1/3 the time of just an ordinary internal combustion engine.

Another advantage is in the platform. The engine doesn’t have to be retooled to include the lead acid batteries (LAB). GM only had to find four inches more space to include the batteries and they did so. Retooling a platform and including advanced technology can be very expensive. Using the same design and adding three lead acid batteries will add some cost, but not the $4,000-$6,000 ticket that we are seeing on NiMH batteries. The Nickel Metal Hydride battery has a greater sensitivity to elevated temperatures which is why it is not under the hood like the LAB, but in the trunk or under a seat instead. There are Hybrid Electric Vehicles (HEV) that include a thermistor in the battery pack which monitors the battery temperature and cuts off charging if the temperature becomes too high.

The other advantage is in the lead acid batteries themselves. There may not be a shortage of NiMH batteries, but you won’t see the cost going down anytime soon. According to Dougherty that is because there is no low cost, Or cost effective, recycling available for NiMH batteries available. "Lead Acid batteries are 97.6% recyled. They are the highest recycled product in the world, far more than for any other consumer product including aluminum beverage cans (55 percent), newspapers (45 percent), glass bottles (26 percent), and tires (26 percent). Lead-acid batteries now have a closed-loop life cycle. In the United States, the typical new Johnson Controls battery can contain 70 to 80 percent recycled lead and

plastic. When a spent battery is collected, it is sent to a permitted recycler where, under strict environmental regulations, the lead and plastic are reclaimed and sent to a new-battery manufacturer. The recycling cycle goes on indefinitely, which means the battery materials in a given car, truck, boat or motorcycle have been recycled many times and will continue to be recycled."

There is no mass marketing to the general public planned of NiMH batteries to bring the cost down like there is in lead acid batteries. NiMH batteries are different from lead acid batteries in that they are an advanced chemistry that if left on the shelf too long degradation will occur. A lead acid battery will have to be recharged if left on the shelf for 6-8 months while a NiMH battery will have to be recharged every three months.

Right now there is no circle of life for the Nickel Metal Hydride battery. Recycler Toxco, a Canadian company, is in research and development phase of recycling NiMH batteries. According to Todd Coy, Vice President Battery Division Kinsbursky Corporation, the parent company of Toxco, "Kinsbursky is obtaining a larger melting unit that would get a cleaner more refined nickel." According to Coy, "It is our responsibility to be in a state of preparedness. The economics may not be there in the beginning, but in order to be the leader in recycling batteries you have to be on the forefront. We can partner with Manufacturers and recycle the batteries and return the raw product to producers."

This does not explain why General Motors is only producing 1,500-2,500 hybrid pickups when they sell 900,000. If GM were to build all 900,000 pickups as just mild hybrids the United States would save 80,000,000 gallons of gas.

But for maximum effect you want a full hybrid which uses a Nickel Metal Hydride battery. There are two types of NiMH batteries; cylindrical and prismatic. The chemistry is the same in both, the difference is preferential to the Manufacturers platform. NiMH batteries weigh about 30 percent less than a LAB. The NiMH battery is more "power specific" than a lead acid battery. Power Specific refers to the power by weight; it weighs less for the same amount of power. The NiMH energy throughput lasts 8-10 years whereas the lead acid battery is only warrantied for 2-3 years.

On the full hybrid the engine size is reduced because the motor generator supplies the extra horsepower not normally needed in the engine. For example, you don’t need all your horsepower to go 65 mph down a flat street that you do need if you want to go 65 mph up a hill. But upon ascent, the motor generator, powered by the NiMH battery, kicks in and provides the extra horsepower. The 2005 Lexus RX 400h internal combustion engine has a horsepower of 205. When you combine that with the three motor generators the combined horsepower is 268.

This does not explain why Toyota/Lexus is only producing 48,000 hybrid SUVs when they sell 300,000. If Toyota/Lexus were to build all 300,000 as hybrids the United States would save 30,000,000 gallons of gas. If they were to make all their Camrys (the most similar car to the Prius)hybrids it would save us 106,000,000 gallons of gas a year.

The Nickel Metal Hydride Battery (NiMH) is an integral part of a hybrid. The Lithium Ion battery has the potential of eclipsing the NiMH battery but it is not ready for primetime yet. The Lithium Ion hasn’t met the abuse tolerance test; it has to be able to overcharge in a vehicle without catastrophic incidence to the vehicle.

[aaaantoine]

where in your calculation is the cost of the electrical energy that flows through the "plug"

160027[/snapback]

That varies from region to region, and also depends on whether or not you're generating the energy yourself with solar panels.

The more important question would be: how much energy is going towards charging the car?

[pow]

toyota has already been spewing propaganda against plug-in hybrids...says the prius battery will last 150,000 miles + or 'the life of the vehicle' and that plug in hybrids run the batteries to extreme far too much which shortens battery life.  The Prius' battery runs at 50-70% charge all the time, which the claim improves its lifespan.  I've always heard its better to drain and fill, not charge a little and not all the way.  Toyota could be spewing sh1t as usual here.

162612[/snapback]

Perhaps they're denying it to keep competitors off-guard...

[regfootball]

Interesting article....

http://www.carlist.com/autonews/2005/autonews_94.html

Why do we need a Nickel Metal Hydride Battery (NiMH) in a Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV)?

By Lou Ann Hammond

Hybrid sales are phenomenal. Every vehicle that is a hybrid is selling out virtually before it hits the store lot. Lexus PR folks have said that there will be 24,000 Lexus RX 400hs produced this year and that 11,000 are already pre-sold.

It doesn’t make sense that with hybrids so hot that the Manufacturers would dole out hybrids so sparingly, not really letting the public see the full demand of the hybrid. Is there a demand for hybrids or is the hype for the 100,000 or so hybrids brought about because there are so few hybrids. We know the demand for vehicles was over 16,000,000 last year because there were over 16,000,0000 produced and over 16,000,0000 sold. In fact, production outweighed sales. Production of hybrids have never outweighed sales of hybrids. Why aren’t more hybrids being produced?

There are four major suppliers of automotive Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries; Japan’s Panasonic and Sanyo, China’s GP Industries (Goldpeak), U.S. based Johnson Controls and Cobasys. Cobasys has a joint venture with Energy Conversion Devices (ECD) and Chevron Texaco on their NiMH batteries. Goldpeak supplies buses in Asia and Europe. Ford uses Sanyo’s batteries, Toyota uses Panasonics. Honda uses both. Johnson Controls is just starting a pilot operation at their Hanover, Germany facility

The one company that has been quoted as saying there is a shortage of batteries is Ford Motor Company. Ford uses Sanyo for their Ford Escape hybrid batteries. Ford is expected to build 20,000 Escape hybrids in 2005, but would like to build more, save for the lack of batteries. Ford is in talks with Sanyo to boost production. Ford cannot just go to another battery maker and buy these batteries off the shelf like one would do if they needed a lead acid battery.

The Nickel Metal Hydride battery powers everything from cellular phones to hybrid electric vehicles. According to Cobasys, the first use of a NiMH battery was in the form of a Nickel hydrogen battery used in aerospace applications. A NiMH is the configuration of a battery using metal hydride hydrogen storage materials as one of the battery electrodes. You see NiMH batteries in solid state format in the batteries you use today in cameras, blackberrys, PDAs and palm pilots and a slue of other gadgetry. Making a NiMH for automotive use requires cranking amps that are not needed in the gadgetry.

NiMH is a rechargeable battery technology that has approximately 30-50% more charge per pound than nickel cadmium (NiCD). Cadmium is a toxic heavy metal that can leach into the water supply if the case breaks and harm people and animals that ingest it. Introduced in the early 1990s, NiMH uses nickel and metal hydride plates with potassium hydroxide as the electrolyte. NiMH batteries do not suffer quite as much from the "memory effect" as do nickel cadmium batteries, but still require complete discharges in order to obtain the most efficiency and longest life. Nickel Metal Hydride batteries have pretty much eclipsed the nickel cadmium battery in solid state use and are not even considered for automotive use. NiMH and lithium-ion (Li-ion) and even newer lithium-polymer batteries, lithium-based formulations, pose less of a threat to the public than NiCd.

Johnson Controls is the latest company to start producing automotive NiMH batteries. The NiMH cell was developed using technologies from its Varta Battery Automotive Business in Europe. "HEVs represent

a small but rapidly growing part of the modern-day automotive market," said Lou Senunas, vice president of advanced battery and hybrid technology for Johnson Controls. "With our technological strengths, long-term experience, and manufacturing capacity, we are well-positioned to charge forward as a key supplier of battery technology and products to the emerging HEV segment."

A hybrid vehicle is a standard vehicle with electric power assist. A hybrid is different from an electric vehicle in that it doesn’t need to be plugged in for the battery to work. It has what we call regenerative braking. The hybrid can be a mild or full hybrid, but the definition of a hybrid is that it is able to run on its own for a short time. All hybrids still have lead acid batteries, but most - not all - hybrids have Nickel Metal hydridge batteries to assist in fuel savings and lower emissions.

Let’s start with a mild hybrid, such as a General Motors (GM) pickup. According to Joe LoGrasso, Engineering Manager of Electrical Power and Advanced Systems for GM Global Electrical Engineering Center, GM uses a mild hybrid system that employs three 12 volt batteries and a fly-wheel alternator starter for a twelve-fifteen percent savings in fuel. This doesn’t seem like much and could probably be achieved just as easily if you took some of the weight out of the vehicle. There are some very simple reasons that make a mild hybrid important.

The fly wheel is a motor generator. It helps store energy in a 42 volt system. There is also the difference, according to Tom Dougherty, Director of Advanced Battery and Advanced Systems for Johnson Controls, in the cold start. The first is that it reduces cranking time. A regular internal combustion engine vehicle take 3/4 to 1.5 seconds of pumping gas to start. This passes gas through the engine, unused and causes the most amount of Nitrous Oxide (NOX) and hydrocarbons. These are called pollutants which are not good to breath. GMs mild hybrid cold start is 1/3 the time of just an ordinary internal combustion engine.

Another advantage is in the platform. The engine doesn’t have to be retooled to include the lead acid batteries (LAB). GM only had to find four inches more space to include the batteries and they did so. Retooling a platform and including advanced technology can be very expensive. Using the same design and adding three lead acid batteries will add some cost, but not the $4,000-$6,000 ticket that we are seeing on NiMH batteries. The Nickel Metal Hydride battery has a greater sensitivity to elevated temperatures which is why it is not under the hood like the LAB, but in the trunk or under a seat instead. There are Hybrid Electric Vehicles (HEV) that include a thermistor in the battery pack which monitors the battery temperature and cuts off charging if the temperature becomes too high.

The other advantage is in the lead acid batteries themselves. There may not be a shortage of NiMH batteries, but you won’t see the cost going down anytime soon. According to Dougherty that is because there is no low cost, Or cost effective, recycling available for NiMH batteries available. "Lead Acid batteries are 97.6% recyled. They are the highest recycled product in the world, far more than for any other consumer product including aluminum beverage cans (55 percent), newspapers (45 percent), glass bottles (26 percent), and tires (26 percent). Lead-acid batteries now have a closed-loop life cycle. In the United States, the typical new Johnson Controls battery can contain 70 to 80 percent recycled lead and

plastic. When a spent battery is collected, it is sent to a permitted recycler where, under strict environmental regulations, the lead and plastic are reclaimed and sent to a new-battery manufacturer. The recycling cycle goes on indefinitely, which means the battery materials in a given car, truck, boat or motorcycle have been recycled many times and will continue to be recycled."

There is no mass marketing to the general public planned of NiMH batteries to bring the cost down like there is in lead acid batteries. NiMH batteries are different from lead acid batteries in that they are an advanced chemistry that if left on the shelf too long degradation will occur. A lead acid battery will have to be recharged if left on the shelf for 6-8 months while a NiMH battery will have to be recharged every three months.

Right now there is no circle of life for the Nickel Metal Hydride battery. Recycler Toxco, a Canadian company, is in research and development phase of recycling NiMH batteries. According to Todd Coy, Vice President Battery Division Kinsbursky Corporation, the parent company of Toxco, "Kinsbursky is obtaining a larger melting unit that would get a cleaner more refined nickel." According to Coy, "It is our responsibility to be in a state of preparedness. The economics may not be there in the beginning, but in order to be the leader in recycling batteries you have to be on the forefront. We can partner with Manufacturers and recycle the batteries and return the raw product to producers."

This does not explain why General Motors is only producing 1,500-2,500 hybrid pickups when they sell 900,000. If GM were to build all 900,000 pickups as just mild hybrids the United States would save 80,000,000 gallons of gas.

But for maximum effect you want a full hybrid which uses a Nickel Metal Hydride battery. There are two types of NiMH batteries; cylindrical and prismatic. The chemistry is the same in both, the difference is preferential to the Manufacturers platform. NiMH batteries weigh about 30 percent less than a LAB. The NiMH battery is more "power specific" than a lead acid battery. Power Specific refers to the power by weight; it weighs less for the same amount of power. The NiMH energy throughput lasts 8-10 years whereas the lead acid battery is only warrantied for 2-3 years.

On the full hybrid the engine size is reduced because the motor generator supplies the extra horsepower not normally needed in the engine. For example, you don’t need all your horsepower to go 65 mph down a flat street that you do need if you want to go 65 mph up a hill. But upon ascent, the motor generator, powered by the NiMH battery, kicks in and provides the extra horsepower. The 2005 Lexus RX 400h internal combustion engine has a horsepower of 205. When you combine that with the three motor generators the combined horsepower is 268.

This does not explain why Toyota/Lexus is only producing 48,000 hybrid SUVs when they sell 300,000. If Toyota/Lexus were to build all 300,000 as hybrids the United States would save 30,000,000 gallons of gas. If they were to make all their Camrys (the most similar car to the Prius)hybrids it would save us 106,000,000 gallons of gas a year.

The Nickel Metal Hydride Battery (NiMH) is an integral part of a hybrid. The Lithium Ion battery has the potential of eclipsing the NiMH battery but it is not ready for primetime yet. The Lithium Ion hasn’t met the abuse tolerance test; it has to be able to overcharge in a vehicle without catastrophic incidence to the vehicle.

164929[/snapback]

it's not like you can tool up to produce 17 million hybrid batteries per annum, like OVERNIGHT, like right NOW.

and even then, 2/3 of the population doesn't want to pay for the extra hardware and cost just yet.

more socialism.....'we SHOULD make them do it' mentality.

[scotthendersonfan]

Plug-in's are cool if you're in the city or using it for similar short commutes.

Otherwise, you want the car to be self sufficient.

[aaaantoine]

Plug-in's are cool if you're in the city or using it for similar short commutes.

Otherwise, you want the car to be self sufficient.

165323[/snapback]

I think the idea of a plug-in hybrid is to use power from the grid to get extra miles in the city, but still have the ability to drive the thing cross-country on gasoline.

Otherwise it's just another EV.

[PurdueGuy]

I think the idea of a plug-in hybrid is to use power from the grid to get extra miles in the city, but still have the ability to drive the thing cross-country on gasoline.

Otherwise it's just another EV.

165332[/snapback]

Exactly. Right now you can pay a company in Cali to put an extra big battery pack & a plug in a Prius, and ta-da, you have a plug-in hybrid. It still is able to run like a regular Prius, without being plugged in, and just has to carry extra weight of more batteries.