Which would you rather have?

[CARBIZ]

Like I said, I do this for a living! I spent an entire afternoon with the Corolla, Civic and Cobalt. If you compare the mid-ranged vehicles (not the leather seats and all the gadgets) the Cobalt and Corolla come out about the same, but the '05 Civic just sucks. Put your biases aside. The '05 was an engine with a 10 year old design around it. I have no doubt the '06 will be "better" than the Cobalt, just like the upcoming Ion will be better than the Civic - and so on and so on. Besides, the sum total of a car is more than just the feel of its knobs. What about automatic headlights, oil life monitor, side projector beam lights, etc., etc.? Timing belt versus chain. This argument is getting tired.

[Cory Wolfe]

LORD I wish I could be in person with some of you guys next to a Cobalt, Corolla, Civic, and Mazda3 so I could SHOW you how easily Cobalt fails to make the grade. AARRRGGGHHH

It is still just your opinion... Mr. Carbiz and Mr. SingleStylish said they've been in some of these vehicles and what they say isn't the same as what you say. So who's right?

[pow]

It is still just your opinion... Mr. Carbiz and Mr. SingleStylish said they've been in some of these vehicles and what they say isn't the same as what you say. So who's right?

[post="14435"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm certain there's a scientific aspect to interior design, what makes shapes pleasing or distracting, what evokes the unity and order of nature... kinda like Piet Mondrian's compositions. The new Civic ventures into new, daring forms, but it doesn't go outside the boundries of what's acceptable. The same can't be said for the Cobalt, which leaves me feeling... well, distressed.

I've discovered that generally most people who grew up with GM interiors are immune to it.

[avro206]

New Civis is gross. Cobalt rules

[SingleStylish]

New Civis is gross. Cobalt rules

[post="14444"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Absolutely one of the most thoughtful posts I've seen in the years of being here... congratulations you have added so much to this conversation.

How about expanding on why you think the the new "Civis is gross?" Why does the "Cobalt rules?"

[avro206]

Absolutely one of the most thoughtful posts I've seen in the years of being here... congratulations you have added so much to this conversation.

How about expanding on why you think the the new "Civis is gross?"  Why does the "Cobalt rules?"

[post="14604"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Oh I posted before on this thread already. I will expalin it for you.

Its my opinion and is true for me and some others on here. You have your "opinions" and I have mine. No one is right.

As for the Civic being gross---the steering wheels and stacked guages do the trick to get that accomplished.

I get tired of so called experts bashing-----its not fact, sorry.

[Sixty8panther]

Who cares if it maxes out at 200 hp, especially with the terribly thin rpm range one would have to deal with to get the power.  With most GM products, including the Cobalt, the HP & Torque are achieved via a broad power band. Another words it holds the upper horsepower / torque for a 3000 to 4000 rpm range, instead of a short 500 rpm range.

[post="13557"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

So many irritating Honda fans fail to understand this.

BTW: One of my favorite tricks is to go asking around at the dragway how many MPG racer's Civic's get. A Civic running high 13s with all engine or turbo is usually averaging 15mpg.

My 1968 Camaro runs 13s and get's 15mpg. Most Honda fans are so clueless. :rolleyes:

[The O.C.]

It is still just your opinion... Mr. Carbiz and Mr. SingleStylish said they've been in some of these vehicles and what they say isn't the same as what you say. So who's right?

[post="14435"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Because obviously my point/opinion is not coming across in words......let's sit inside the cars and let me point out physical problems with the Cobalt design....and point out in person where Honda and Toyota do it much better....

And by the way.....my response here comparing Corolla, Civic, and Cobalt has been about fit-and-finish and material quality...I'm not talking about features, etc.....

AND, I'm not at all biased. Everyone thinks that because one of us on here slams a GM product or compares it less-than-favorably to it's Japanese competition, that we are "biased." Just because I CAN point out deficiencies in GM products doesn't mean I'm not a fan of that product.....it just means I'm not BLINDLY LOYAL.

I've said many times how much I like the Cobalt....overall....and would buy one over a Corolla. That doesn't mean I think the fit-and-finish or interior is as good as a Corolla....it's NOT. BUT, I'd buy the Cobalt because I think it is much more attractive and has alot more character than a Corolla.

BUT compared to buying it or a new Civic, now that's a tougher choice....

[Cory Wolfe]

Well, just FYI, I wasn't agreeing nor disagreeing with you. I was just saying that it's obviously your opinion as others had differing comments. And that's their opinion. That's all. :) As for Empowah, I don't understand what you see in the old Civic's interior. The shapes of the dash and seats make it seem more substantial? What? "I'm certain there's a scientific aspect to interior design, what makes shapes pleasing or distracting, what evokes the unity and order of nature... kinda like Piet Mondrian's compositions. The new Civic ventures into new, daring forms, but it doesn't go outside the boundries of what's acceptable. The same can't be said for the Cobalt, which leaves me feeling... well, distressed." And this... confuses me. What are the boundaries of what's acceptable?

[NOS2006]

Sorry... I'm going to have to go with the Civic. It looks less ricey and ungainly outside. The interior sucks... but I have a GA, so I can't really complain much. I'm sure the build quality is better too... Not sure about driving dynamics as I haven't driven either, obviously.

[post="11602"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

:withstupid: :cheers:

[SingleStylish]

Oh I posted before on this thread already. I will expalin it for you.

Its my opinion and is true for me and some others on here. You have your "opinions" and I have mine. No one is right.

As for the Civic being gross---the steering wheels and stacked guages do the trick to get that accomplished.

I get tired of so called experts bashing-----its not fact, sorry.

[post="14605"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

My response to your comment wasn't out of defense as much as it was about calling attention to useless posts. No matter you may think... I own a GM truck and now, as of 4 months ago, a Honda car. I am not a rabid Honda FANATIC. At one point, I was however a RABID GM fan. There are some things GM still doesn't accel at... they're working at it... in the mean time the Honda made sense personally as it does for so many others and have found the new Civic to fit that mold also.

The Cobalt, like it or love it, is light years ahead of anything GM has produced in the way cars for the common man. If they make the same amount of improvements within the next 4 years to the current Cobalt, I expect that I will like the Cobalt better than the Civic. But, until then... it stands to reason that a well built reputation, forward thinking design, better resale, and prices that deliver twice the "feeling" for half the price will always prevail. The Civic is just that.

The Cobalt is the "value" champion. Pure and simple and it delivers exactly what you pay for. Which is just right for some. Apparently you're one of those people. Which is fine...

I've written GM on many occasions to start selling vehicles that aren't "value" champions and instead the clearly better car. I would pay a premium if the car delivered a better "feeling."


PS For what it is worth, I have backed up my comments with intents to purchase... that sometimes is overlooked in these topics. To me that goes further than idle chit-chat.

[MyerShift]

Based on exterior styling, I would choose the Civic Si. However, due to its awful interior, I wouldn't want it. So, my American bias (and along with its more attractive interior) I would choose the Cobalt SS over the new Civic any day.

[Polish_Kris]

New Civis is gross. Cobalt rules

[post="14444"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Have you driven both to back that up??

[Ian]

Cobalt!! I hate the interior of the Civic!

[Cory Wolfe]

Does he have to? If he thinks the Civic is ugly, that could be enough justification to not get it over the Cobalt... regardless of how much better the Civic may drive, or etc. And if he is happy with his Cobalt SS, it shouldn't matter.

[avro206]

Have you driven both to back that up??

[post="16794"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

not but I simply cannot get past the interior. On the other hand---I don't like the rear of the coupe at all----the 4 door looks better to me.

[-Camaro-]

I think the Civic looks much better than the previous model and have seen both of these on the road, but the Cobalt looks better, imo. The front of the Cobalt looks better, imo(in real life the Civic's fascia looks kinda weird), and the back looks 100X's better on the Cobalt.... The interior looks much nicer on the Cobalt aswell! I don't know what Honda was thinking when they designed this interior!!

[ToniCipriani]

The Civic is making very nice HP from 6100rpm to 8100rpm.

[post="13803"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Tell me: how often would you keep your car revving at that RPM?

[Sixty8panther]

Tell me: how often would you keep your car revving at that RPM?

[post="17968"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Or, an even more relavant question is how quickly can you get the car into that RPM range...

The most annoying thing about the S2000 is that you have to FedEx a request for WOT to the butterfly a week in advance in ordcer to get the power when you want it. Okay I'm grossly exagerating for effect but the truth is it annoys me to have to wait like 3.75 seconds in order ofr the car to reach it's powerband at WOT.

If I'm sitting in my Camaro at idle at a red light and it turns green, from the moment I push that gas pedal down to the floor to the car tearing up the rear tires mercilesly is only about 0.25 seconds. Basicaly it's INSTANT. And FYI my Camaro's 350 is setup & cammed to reach peak horsepower at relatively high rpms. The engine only really starts turning at about 4500 and redlines at 7000rpm. I've run the car at 7100 for a sec. or two before. In a life or death situation I'm sure 8000 would not kill it.

These new cars (Hondas in particular) seem to have a serious delay. It's like there's a blockage in the fel line or something. Even BMWs (I'm a BMW fan myself) have a serious delay in throttle response. <_<

[CARBIZ]

...FEDEX - well, no wonder. Fedex is AMerican. If you used a Japanese courier company, well, they are better you know.

[razoredge]

I thought the Cobalt SS was a proven and approved compact for performance ? It would look better if I had of made the final styling decisions but its pretty sharp and different from the pack. I have noticed that it seems all or rather most Japanese cars (I dont research them) now have the drooping lower lip grills ? I dont think they are that sharp, at all. I hope GM doesnt start doing this.

[razoredge]

I like Hondas or Acuras more Buickish tailights, GM needs to get back on the ball with this for our Buick division. I made posts on this in the older forum.

[Polish_Kris]

New Civis is gross. Cobalt rules

[post="14444"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

How shallow!

[avro206]

How shallow!

[post="22791"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Can you write more then 8 words? I have expalined my stance already.

The 4 door is not bad looking, I saw one yesterday. But its the interior----from the gross steering wheel to stacked guages. Imagine if Chevy did that----the media would be all over them. But its Honda---they can do no wrong.

My Cobalt has a great interior. Nice textures and great fit. Its normal too! NOt freakishy werid

[ftmjohn]

Or, an even more relavant question is how quickly can you get the car into that RPM range...

The most annoying thing about the S2000 is that you have to FedEx a request for WOT to the butterfly a week in advance in ordcer to get the power when you want it. Okay I'm grossly exagerating for effect but the truth is it annoys me to have to wait like 3.75 seconds in order ofr the car to reach it's powerband at WOT.

If I'm sitting in my Camaro at idle at a red light and it turns green, from the moment I push that gas pedal down to the floor to the car tearing up the rear tires mercilesly is only about 0.25 seconds. Basicaly it's INSTANT. And FYI my Camaro's 350 is setup & cammed to reach peak horsepower at relatively high rpms. The engine only really starts turning at about 4500 and redlines at 7000rpm. I've run the car at 7100 for a sec. or two before. In a life or death situation I'm sure 8000 would not kill it.

These new cars (Hondas in particular) seem to have a serious delay. It's like there's a blockage in the fel line or something. Even BMWs (I'm a BMW fan myself) have a serious delay in throttle response.  <_<

[post="17974"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I am sorry, but you just cannot compare a small 4/6 cyl sport econo car to a big V8 muscle car! Sure the torque is going to be way down low on your camaro, you have the displacement to make power down low. Smaller car engines just cannot do that, short of Force Induction, so they need to make power by reving, hence the delay in power. You are comparing completly different cars from completly different categories.


John

[siegen]

Or, an even more relavant question is how quickly can you get the car into that RPM range...

The most annoying thing about the S2000 is that you have to FedEx a request for WOT to the butterfly a week in advance in ordcer to get the power when you want it. Okay I'm grossly exagerating for effect but the truth is it annoys me to have to wait like 3.75 seconds in order ofr the car to reach it's powerband at WOT.

If I'm sitting in my Camaro at idle at a red light and it turns green, from the moment I push that gas pedal down to the floor to the car tearing up the rear tires mercilesly is only about 0.25 seconds. Basicaly it's INSTANT.

[post="17974"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I think you're looking at this from too much of a muscle car point of view. How many times are you at the low rpm's when road racing or going around a track? Oh wait, you probably only care about straight line acceleration and drag racing, right? Yeh, there's the problem right there.

Another thing, you don't floor it at 2krpms when launching from a light. If you want to go fast, the S2000 can get into the upper rpm's within a split second. Where do you think it gets its 0-60 times from?

And lastly, most race cars and drag cars have horrible low end torque as well, and most don't idle too well at these rpms. No race car utilizes low end torque. It is better to make torque in the high rpm's than the low rpm's, and anybody will tell you this. The s2000 is a car designed for the track that can be used on the street. It is a true sports car.

[avro206]

I think you're looking at this from too much of a muscle car point of view. How many times are you at the low rpm's when road racing or going around a track? Oh wait, you probably only care about straight line acceleration and drag racing, right? Yeh, there's the problem right there.

Another thing, you don't floor it at 2krpms when launching from a light. If you want to go fast, the S2000 can get into the upper rpm's within a split second. Where do you think it gets its 0-60 times from?

And lastly, most race cars and drag cars have horrible low end torque as well, and most don't idle too well at these rpms. No race car utilizes low end torque. It is better to make torque in the high rpm's than the low rpm's, and anybody will tell you this. The s2000 is a car designed for the track that can be used on the street. It is a true sports car.

[post="24866"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You both make valid points. But Honda, in a way, almost admitted a degree of failure, when the 2.0 was increased to 2.2L. Torque went up, redline went down and it became a better car because of that.

New cars try to get good low end torque with a combination of higher rpm power too. The best of both worlds Edited October 6, 2005 by avro206

[siegen]

You both make valid points. But Honda, in a way, almost admitted a degree of failure, when the 2.0 was increased to 2.2L. Torque went up, redline went down and it became a better car because of that.

New cars try to get good low end torque with a combination of higher rpm power too. The best of both worlds

[post="24917"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

No doubt, the new F22C is a faster engine than the F20C. They simply adjusted the rod and stroke to make it appeal to American buyers who need this low end torque. They also adjusted the gear ratios and made modifications to the intake camshaft, but that's besides the point. They didn't admit to any mistake, they mearly gave us what we wanted, low end torque. Where do most of the super cars in the world come from? Italy, Germany? The S2000 still has a 2 liter high revving engine over there, as well as everywhere else in the world. By bumping up the displacement in this way, they sacrificed the R/S ratio, which will increase piston sideloading and wear on the sidewalls of the combustion chamber. With such a well designed small engine, this isn't really going to effect it under normal circumstances though. It would still be better for a car that sees a lot of track time to have the better R/S ratio.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

This would be a very tough decision! i would have to drive them both.

[C.H.U.D.]

Cobalt. The Civic has lots of character, but I'm biased towards quad round taillights.

[ShadowDog]

I would need a week in each to find everything I liked and disliked. If it were based on exterior styling, I narrowly pick Cobalt. If interior styling, I whole-heartedly pick Cobalt. There's little point explaining my reasons, because they're my own, so whom else should care? My final pick would be based on things like: 1) what the car felt like around me when driving 2) how well the car handled throughout the range of movements 3) what practical value I would get out of having one as a daily driver For now, I see two cars. Neither really does anything for me over the other when it comes to the balance of pros and cons from what I can see in pictures and on paper.

[siegen]

For those of you who don't frequent www.vtec.net (which I would assume is most of you), you're missing out. The guys over there recently posted a compilation video of the Si they have, which shows it cruising through some winding roads and on the track. The noise the engine and exhaust makes is incredible (if you watch the video, don't judge it by when he's revving it in the garage, wait for the racing footage). Also, there's a picture of the Mugen tuned JDM Civic sedan, which looks really good. You can go and register at the Temple of Vtec to download the video, or you can download it from my server here:

06project_si-01.wmv - 14MB WMV

0-60 times are still hard to come by. The 0-60 run they do there is really messy, lots of wheel spin and rev limiter in 1st (damn FWD =P). And here is the pic of the Mugen Tuned JDM Sedan, I wish we had this over here. The USDM sedan is nothing compared to this:

[Cory Wolfe]

Well, I'm registered at that site (not as BV), it's in my sig, and I try to visit it, when I can. The problem is that I'm addicted to C&G. But other than Pontiac, I like Honda too. As for the videos... My PC is literally too shitty. It can't even do simple links. If I click on one, every window closes. Its really annoying. As for the JDM Mugen sedan... Well, its better than the USDM sedan. It is still weird looking to me. The coupe is much better. Which makes me wonder what the JDM coupe looks like... Hopefully the same or close to it as I like it. Maybe it'll be an improvement, though. Do you know, siegen?

[siegen]

Which makes me wonder what the JDM coupe looks like... Hopefully the same or close to it as I like it. Maybe it'll be an improvement, though. Do you know, siegen?

[post="25815"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

As far as I know there is only the sedan for Japan, and the 5 door Hatch for Europe. The Coupe and Si were actually designed in America (and the USDM sedan is a variant of the JDM Sedan) and are not available anywhere else in the world. I do not know when Honda of Japan will design any more body styles, but I'll bet they'll make a Type R or a Coupe next year.

The main reason I assume for not having a Coupe this year, is that they probably didn't want to hurt 4th gen Integra (RSX) and Integra Type R sales in Japan by releasing a Civic Coupe there. As you know, Acura is owned by Honda and is U.S. only, so they can get away having a Civic Si and an RSX Type S, since besides the small price difference, they are under different divisions (it's all marketting). But in Japan, both the Civic and Integra/RSX are under the same name, and may conflict in sales.

To recap:
USDM has Coupe, Coupe Si, Sedan, Hybrid Sedan.
JDM has Sedan, Hybrid Sedan.
UKDM (Europe) has 5 Door Hatch.

UKDM Civic has 11 different models (check out www.honda.co.uk), of which I'm sure there is a Diesel version and maybe a hybrid version. They also have a 2.2 liter engine option, which is neat, as the USDM only comes with 1.8 liter (and 2.0 liter in the Si).

[pow]

Wow, it sounds amazing... at times, almost like a Ferrari F430, but without the clarity. As far as the US-spec sedan, I like it as-is, which is modern and relatively classy. The Mugen version looks like, well, a souped up, Prius-shaped car trying to be sporty... it just doesn't work. The coupe reacts better to mods. On one hand, I'll concede the new Si is a great car at a great price. I'd enjoy driving one, but owning one? I don't know... when you buy a Honda, you end up, with a Honda. :P Whereas if you buy a MINI Cooper S or Golf GTI, you don't. But yeah, it's definitely on my shopping list.

[frogger]

Exhaust note certainly is impressive, especially for a four banger, sounds like a track car as much as a street car. I had read it was the best sounding Honda other than the NSX.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Why oh why did honda have to come out with this killer machine.... i had my heart set on a 5spd cobalt... but this.... this car is just awesome... i even dig the 80s dash! the Si coupe is just soo appealing to me right now. course if tomorrow Nissan ressurected its 240sx with a base price of 16k for a bare bones car.... well that would be my first choice. Edited October 10, 2005 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[cavalier36]

Id probably go with the Cobalt SS.. although I just started working for Honda at the East Liberty Ohio plant. and we build the Civic sedan and Element.. Ive only been there one day and i actually start the job the following monday..

[SDB1]

Based on the exterior I'd say it's a toss up. The wing on the Cobalt is just bad and I prefer the Honda wing. If you can delete the wing on the SS then I'd buy one. The red on the cobalt looks too boy racer. I'd like to see both cars side by side in black. The interior in the Cobalt isn't even in the same league as the civic. I've seen both in person and when you sit in the civic you feel as if you're in a much more expensive model, where as the cobalt feels very entry level. Of course I've never like any GM interior other than the Corvette. Yes, the Honda Steering wheel is a bit over the top but the Cobalt's is rather plain and ugly as well. If performance was my only concern I'd go with the Cobalt. Gone are the days when Honda would outhandle the competition. GM has put together an extremely well balanced performance package that they can be proud of. Overall this car is an interior update away from stealing some Honda thunder. On a side note I don't know why GM doesn't fire their entire interior design team. I have walked away from more GM cars that were otherwise superior mechanically just because of dated interiors. Heck thats where you spend most of your time, give us something nice to look at! The CTS is one of those otherwise perfect cars that is just ruined by the nasty interiors. It's a good thing that car performs so darned well! CTS-V is my wet dream!

[aaaantoine]

From the side profile, the Civic has the same bloated shape as the Prius. From all angles, it's not all that graceful.

My non-enthusiast wife actually agrees with me on the styling of the car (she feels that both the Prius and the Civic are disgusting).

The interior is gimmicky. I think manufacturers are overstyling cars on purpose so they can sell more new cars. Four years from now, this car will be about as popular as rainbow suspenders, whereas cars with more conservative, ergonomic interior designs (Impala, Lucerne, DTS, Cobalt) will fare better on the pre-owned market.

And given the current route that middle-class America is going, coupled with the inflating prices of new cars, pre-owned cars may be the only ones we'll be able to buy.