Is GM Looking Into Plug-In Hybrids?

[Clownzilla]

If this is already posted, I apologize in advance. Found this on CNN Money, and even though I can sense an anti-GM stance, I found this atricle interesting mostly because this is the first time I have seen an article about this. On a second note, I remember reading an article about GM keeping a few EV1's alive for "research". If anyone knows where this info comes from please post it. Anyway, here is the link to the article:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/23/news/compa...ybrid/index.htm

[Imaj]

Would it be practical? Why have 3 different Hybrid systems?

[Sixty8panther]

The company offered a limited production of an electric-only car, the EV1, for five years starting in 1996. But it was never more than a niche product, selling only 411 in 2000, the last year they were available.

IIRC that's still like 700% of the total amount of Acura NSXs sold in 2000.

[packardlust]

I believe that you would want the plug in hybrid to increase the vehicles ability to operate only on electric power for a greater distance, and at a higher output (bigger motor) without the gas engine. The reason the current crop of hybrid don't have a plug is based on consumer research that indicated consumers had no interest in plugging in a car. The plug would make the hybrid resemble more a traditional electric car with an on-board electric generator. You could have the bigger electric motor, bigger battery capacity, and cheap electric grid power to motivate the vehicle w/o the gas engine for longer distances. You would also have the on board electric generator and gas engine drive that would allow for much longer trips than the electric alone could achieve. My other half had an electric car for years, and the monthly electric cost was 20-30 bucks a month. With the current price of gas, and if you drive alot, you could recover the hybrid cost fairly quickly. At todays prices, if you saved couple hundred dollars a month in gas which would be possible with a plug in, then the system would pay for itself in a fairly quick time period. When toyota talks about a hybrid getting 100 mpg or more, the wall plug is the connection that will allow them to achieve this sort of milage. I read someplace recently that Rick Wagoner now thinks it was a mistake to stop producing the EV-1. When you look at the current gas prices, combined with the development that has occured in these first generations of hybrids, added to the significant savings that the wall plug can provide, then it seems pretty obvious why Wagoner thinks dropping the EV-1 was a mistake. The path of the traditional electric and hybird are merging. That said, GM probably more experience than any other automaker in commercializing and manufacturing a traditional electric car from their experience with the EV-1. If gas prices continue to increase, I believe that the cost of gas will drive at the very least a low end hybrid system on par with the Generals BAS system onto all but the lowest end vehicles. The road to hydrogen probably includes a drive down the hybrid highway.

[sciguy_0504]

Plug-in hybrids? Gasp! The horror!

[regfootball]

I believe that you would want the plug in hybrid to increase the vehicles ability to operate only on electric power for a greater distance, and at a higher output (bigger motor) without the gas engine. The reason the current crop of hybrid don't have a plug is based on consumer research that indicated consumers had no interest in plugging in a car.  The plug would make the hybrid resemble more a  traditional  electric car with an on-board electric generator.  You could have the bigger electric motor, bigger battery capacity, and cheap electric grid power to motivate the vehicle w/o the gas engine for longer distances.  You would also have the on board electric generator and gas engine drive that would allow for much longer trips than the electric alone could achieve.   My other half had an electric car for years, and the monthly electric cost was 20-30 bucks a month. With the current price of gas, and if you drive alot, you could recover the hybrid cost fairly quickly. At todays prices, if you saved couple hundred dollars a month in gas which would be possible with a plug in, then the system would pay for itself in a fairly quick time period. When toyota talks about a hybrid getting  100 mpg or more, the wall plug is the connection that will allow them to achieve this sort of milage. I read someplace recently that Rick Wagoner now thinks it was a mistake to stop producing the EV-1. When you look at the current gas prices, combined with the development that has occured in these first generations of hybrids, added to the significant savings that the wall plug can provide, then it seems pretty obvious why Wagoner thinks dropping the EV-1 was a mistake.  The path of the traditional electric and hybird are merging. That said, GM probably more experience than any other automaker in commercializing and manufacturing a traditional electric car from their experience with the EV-1. If gas prices continue to increase, I believe that the cost of gas will drive at the very least a low end hybrid system on par with the Generals BAS system onto all but the lowest end vehicles.  The road to hydrogen probably includes a drive down the hybrid highway.

well said post.

but if everyone had an electric car, would we be able to produce enough electricity, and, would exxonmobil want a piece of the action? boy, once our cars start needing electricity, than electric prices will go through the roof, and we won't even be able to turn the lights on in our houses.

Edited June 24, 2006 by regfootball

[pow]

well said post.

but if everyone had an electric car, would we be able to produce enough electricity, and, would exxonmobil want a piece of the action?  boy, once our cars start needing electricity, than electric prices will go through the roof, and we won't even be able to turn the lights on in our houses.

Yep. What's more important than anything now is clean electricity. Making hydrogen for a fuel cell car requires tons of energy to split hydrogen from oxygen. Wind and solar are the ways to go... two of my neighbors have installed solar panels on their roofs, and apparently, they can sell any excess electricity back to Edison.

[eaton53]

Did they throw away the blueprints?

They should just bring the thing back if for no other reason than to shut up the media and treehuggers.

It's not like the EV1 would be obsolete... no one else has built one.

[regfootball]

Yep. What's more important than anything now is clean electricity. Making hydrogen for a fuel cell car requires tons of energy to split hydrogen from oxygen. Wind and solar are the ways to go... two of my neighbors have installed solar panels on their roofs, and apparently, they can sell any excess electricity back to Edison.

ultimately, wind, solar, and geothermal are the tickets. and nuclear

its one thing to power a couple lights in your house though. to get enough energy to push an escalade across the country is a different story.

back in ND where i was from, they have a lot of wind and a lot of open land. Seems to me like a great place for more wind farms.

Edited June 25, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Did they throw away the blueprints?

They should just bring the thing back if for no other reason than to shut up the media and treehuggers.

It's not like the EV1 would be obsolete... no one else has built one.

the car mags would rip it for having 'cheap interior plastics' .

[regfootball]

who killed the electric car?

WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR?

[regfootball]

wow. check out the page where they give the 'pros and cons' of all the different cars.....hybird, plug-in, biofuels, ethanol, etc.

you'd swear there was no alterantive except electric!

they SLAM ethanol and biofuels.

WHERE DO WE GET ALL THIS ELECTRICITY FROM PRAY TELL ME!?!?!?

GREAT IDEA? WHERE DO WE GET THE ELECTRICITY FROM?

"infrastructure for hydrogen refueling would be costly'

oh, and getting everyone set up to charge their cars at home isn't going to be? Its not like it would have the same plugin as a HAIR DRYER>!

I do think electric is a big part of the solution, its just the premise of that movie makes like there is NO CONS to the electric car.

typical treehuggers/greenies....they only see one side of an issue.

Edited June 25, 2006 by regfootball

[FAPTurbo]

ultimately, wind, solar, and geothermal are the tickets.

its one thing to power a couple lights in your house though.  to get enough energy to push an escalade across the country is a different story.

back in ND where i was from, they have a lot of wind and a lot of open land.  Seems to me like a great place for more wind farms.

What's likely for NA is construction of more nuke-u-lar facilities... Yeah yeah, there's the whole Chernobyl deal, but keep in mind that Chernobyl was in Russia and Russia's RBMK's are the Yugo's of nukes.

I think Solar is too unattainable for now, but with nanotech making such great advances, it may become viable in the not too distant future.

Wind power kicks ass, those huge turbines in huge fields look awesome... however, many people seem to disagree. They argue it ruins the scenery. Well Mr. NIMBY Latte Sipper... if we don't change our habits, there may not be any more scenery.

There's plenty of energy out there... we just gotta be a little less lazy at getting it.

[PurdueGuy]

but if everyone had an electric car, would we be able to produce enough electricity, and, would exxonmobil want a piece of the action?  boy, once our cars start needing electricity, than electric prices will go through the roof, and we won't even be able to turn the lights on in our houses.

Electricity costs are not so volitile as oil prices, since electricity can be produced by a large number of means using a number of resources. It's also far, far more efficient to produce electricity on a large scale than to burn gasoline to run an ICE on a small scale.

Yep. What's more important than anything now is clean electricity. Making hydrogen for a fuel cell car requires tons of energy to split hydrogen from oxygen. Wind and solar are the ways to go... two of my neighbors have installed solar panels on their roofs, and apparently, they can sell any excess electricity back to Edison.

The way to go is multiple ways, both for electricity and hydrogen production. It sounds like the hydrogen production method you're talking about is electrolysis, which is the absolute most stupid way to make hydrogen, especially if hydrogen is ever to be used to produce electricity for the power grid.

Nuclear is likely to play a vital role in both electric and hydrogen production in the future. A nuclear plant can easily superheat water until it splits into hydrogen and oxygen naturally. It's cheap, and with the safety measures used in US plants, very safe.

[pow]

The way to go is multiple ways, both for electricity and hydrogen production.  It sounds like the hydrogen production method you're talking about is electrolysis, which is the absolute most stupid way to make hydrogen, especially if hydrogen is ever to be used to produce electricity for the power grid.

Well, the only other way currently is to make it from natural gas, and that's not going to please the anti-imported-fuel crowd. Utilizing "waste" hydrogen, as GM is doing at a chemical plant ("stationary fuel cell"), is another possibility, although limited in extent.

Edited June 25, 2006 by empowah

[SoCalCTS]

Toyota and Honda marketed their vehicles against GM by saying that they didn't need to plug them in. They played up the fears of consumers who felt like they would be stranded somewhere without a place to plug in their cars.

A hybrid plug in car would actually be better for the environment. Most drivers travel less than 30 miles a day. The car batteries could be completely recharged at night using cheap electricity. This would mean that the gas engine in the car would probably only need to be filled once a month or less.

I think GM would be on the right track if they came out with this kind of system. Consumers could get all the benefits of an all electric vehicle while getting the range of a traditional hybrid.

[haypops]

Doesn't all this talk of cheap electricity depend on where you live?

[regfootball]

Doesn't all this talk of cheap electricity depend on where you live?

some folks (purdueguy) don't get that if we all used electricity for our cars, the demand would probably triple or something and that would simply jack up the price huge. its current 'non-volatility' would instantly be gone.

[eaton53]

some folks (purdueguy) don't get that if we all used electricity for our cars, the demand would probably triple or something and that would simply jack up the price huge.  its current 'non-volatility' would instantly be gone.

I think they're counting on most people plugging in their cars uring off-peak hours... at night.

[eaton53]

the car mags would rip it for having 'cheap interior plastics'     .

Well, yeah... they have to do that. It's mandatory.

[haypops]

the car mags would rip it for having 'cheap interior plastics'     .

Since the EV1 was sold(leased actually) out of Saturn dealerships, the car rags would go on and on about the panel gaps too.

[pow]

"Spurred into action by the 2001 California energy crisis, Mark Jensen plugged his house—and car—into solar electricity."

http://www.homepower.com/files/featured/113_16.pdf

[pow]

Two of our neighbors have Nissan Altras, which are the first EVs to run on lithium-ion batteries. Here's a review...

http://www.altfuels.org/events/testdriv/altra.html

[bobo]

I've posted pics of my solar panels before:

I'm currently generating about twice the electricity that I use, and I'd consider getting a plug-in hybrid. Some Prius owners have converted their cars to plug-ins.

My neighborhood had a black-out last night for about two hours. I don't have battery backup, but I think I'm going to look into that.

[jrockb4]

Plug-in hybrids would seem to come closer to the true promise of hybrid cars. If GM can move there quickly they may be able to bridge the gap before the hydrogen future. A guy started a company called eDrive (another is Hymotion in Toronto) and it uses lithium ion batteries in a Prius that you plug in overnight, they are saying that by doing that they are getting closer to 100 mpg. That would really make hybrids nice. It plugs straight into a standard 110 socket. Now in places like Texas where the grid is maxed during the summer it could pose a bit of an issue sometimes, but as we are adding some nuclear plants :-> it should be all good before toot long If this is all true then GM would not need multiple hybrids, but only to evolve the current ones.

[Flybrian]

We could all just have nuclear cars like Ford envisioned in the 1950s. That was a well-conceived idea.

[sciguy_0504]

I've posted pics of my solar panels before:

I'm currently generating about twice the electricity that I use, and I'd consider getting a plug-in hybrid.  Some Prius owners have converted their cars to plug-ins.

My neighborhood had a black-out last night for about two hours.  I don't have battery backup, but I think I'm going to look into that.

Awesome. A few questions...how did your state help you out with the cost of such a system? Is it hooked up to the grid? Will your local utility company pay you for the excess energy?

I think all new homes should be forced to have solar panels and individual homeowners should have the ability to hook them up to the grid or not.

[regfootball]

I like solar panels on the house, I just hear its a bit costly for the mainstream yet. my grandma had em on her house back in the early 80's and got a grant from the county to have them put on her house.

[pow]

Not exactly scientific, but something to ponder on...

A second-gen EV1 (NiMH) should use 0.179 kWh/mi.

A 2 kw solar system should make 239 kWh a month.

Therefore, an EV1 running on the 2 kw system can drive 1335 miles a month, or 16,020 miles a year.

A 2kw system now costs $11,212 after rebates and tax credits in CA.

After 80,100 miles in an EV1 using home solar electricity, the cost of "fuel" is $.14/mile. ($11,212/80,100 miles)

After 80,100 miles in a 23 MPG (gasoline) car, the cost of fuel ($3.35/gallon) is $.15/mile.

Some EV1s were leased for as little as $299/mo.

Sure, an EV1 was a lot smaller and more inconvenient than a typical 23 MPG car, but this really shows the possibilities of a feasible zero-emission car.

[pow]

Not exactly scientific, but something to ponder on...

A second-gen EV1 (NiMH) should use 0.179 kWh/mi.

A 2 kw solar system should make 239 kWh a month.

Therefore, an EV1 running on the 2 kw system can drive 1335 miles a month, or 16,020 miles a year.

A 2kw system now costs $11,212 after rebates and tax credits in CA.

After 80,100 miles in an EV1 using home solar electricity, the cost of "fuel" is $.14/mile. ($11,212/80,100 miles)

After 80,100 miles in a 23 MPG (gasoline) car, the cost of fuel ($3.35/gallon) is $.15/mile.

Some EV1s were leased for as little as $299/mo.

Sure, an EV1 was a lot smaller and more inconvenient than a typical 23 MPG car, but this really shows the possibilities of a feasible zero-emission car.

Also, an EV1 (plugged into a grid; non-solar) that travels 16,020 miles/yr produces 3,558 lbs of CO2 anually (119 MPG, theoretically), according to BP. (A 55 MPG Prius produces 7,262 lbs of CO2 anually on 16,020 mi/yr.) An EV1 on solar produces nothing, and theoretically gets infinite MPG.

Of course, this doesn't take into account the energy required to manufacture an EV1, batteries and all.

Edited June 26, 2006 by empowah

[bobo]

Awesome.  A few questions...how did your state help you out with the cost of such a system?  Is it hooked up to the grid?  Will your local utility company pay you for the excess energy?

I think all new homes should be forced to have solar panels and individual homeowners should have the ability to hook them up to the grid or not.

I have a 2.5 kW system. As empowah mentioned, it was about $12K, and that was after about $8K in rebates. The house is connected to the grid, meaning that the meter turns backwards during the day feeding power back to the grid. Here's my meter after 2.5 years, and it started at 00000, so it's actually at -3254:

The utility company here does not buy back the electricity, meaning once a year, they get to keep any excess power that is generated.

[Drew Dowdell]

how much was your monthly electric bill before you got the system?

[bobo]

My monthly power bill has always been low, about $20-$25 a month, and $50 at the highest. I minimally use the AC, have compact fluorescents all around, and have energy efficient appliances, but they are mostly natural gas. I got the solar panels because I was going to put in a swimming pool, but I never got around to it. For me, the solar panels will never make financial sense, but I feel it was still the right thing to do, even if I don't get that pool.

I just checked my power bills, and I've actually had the system only 1.5 years. This year I'm going to use the AC more, but I still don't want to waste power.

[wilde1988]

The real answer is hydrogen fuel cell technology, because even with electric cars they have to produce the electricity (not counting solar energy) and in most cases the process creates pollution.

[PurdueGuy]

Well, the only other way currently is to make it from natural gas, and that's not going to please the anti-imported-fuel crowd. Utilizing "waste" hydrogen, as GM is doing at a chemical plant ("stationary fuel cell"), is another possibility, although limited in extent.

Any plan for a "hydrogen economy", where fuel cells for cars and/or grid electricity generation will have to include further hydrogen generation methods. There are a lot of options with this taken into consideration, including using algea farms that produce hydrogen in the right conditions, and the superheated water I mentioned, using nuclear. On a side note, fossil fuel plants would struggle to, if at all be able to superheat water to do this process.

some folks (purdueguy) don't get that if we all used electricity for our cars, the demand would probably triple or something and that would simply jack up the price huge.  its current 'non-volatility' would instantly be gone.

If we all used electric cars, yes, demand would increase dramatically, and yes, prices would probably increase. With electricity, however, you have:

a) greatly increased efficiency

b) fuel from many, many sources. With gasoline there is oil, and oil alternatives (ethanol, etc). With electricity, you have coal, natural gas, nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, waste combustion, and many others. With oil, we have multiple sources for a single resource. Middle east countries, south america, pacific islands, our own land, etc, etc. With electricity production, you have multiple sources for multiple resources. Through which method do you think it's easier to control the price? With electricity, cost increases would come from dispursing the cost for extra infrastructure (which we need anyway), and electric companies taking advantage. Still, the electric companies would be hard pressed to have the power that the oil companies currently have.

I am not suggesting everyone drive all electric cars. I'm not really much of a tree hugger at all, and don't think that electric cars are up to snuff for anything beyond commuter cars, and even those would likely be too expensive for what they'd be. Still, the efficiency and economics should be fairly analyzed.

[pow]

I have a 2.5 kW system.  As empowah mentioned, it was about $12K, and that was after about $8K in rebates.  The house is connected to the grid, meaning that the meter turns backwards during the day feeding power back to the grid.  Here's my meter after 2.5 years, and it started at 00000, so it's actually at -3254:

The utility company here does not buy back the electricity, meaning once a year, they get to keep any excess power that is generated.

Wow, that's impressive. We currently use ~680 kWh/mo, which will require a $34K 6 kw system, and we don't even have air conditioning!

[bobo]

If you're in a part of Palos Verdes that isn't foggy all the time, solar would be a good investment, though there is the aesthetic issue, and big trees can be a problem. You could probably get by with a 5 kW system for about $24K. Rebates are good now but will be dropping slightly next month.

I use about 200 kW/hr a month, but there's only one person (me) in my household, and I have eco-weenie tendencies.

[goblue1999]

Would it be practical? Why have 3 different Hybrid systems?

Risk management, just like having 4cyl, 6cyl, 8cyl, diesel, di-gas, etc.

[goblue1999]

I've posted pics of my solar panels before:

I'm currently generating about twice the electricity that I use, and I'd consider getting a plug-in hybrid.  Some Prius owners have converted their cars to plug-ins.

My neighborhood had a black-out last night for about two hours.  I don't have battery backup, but I think I'm going to look into that.

Cool solar array, how much is the initial cost.....and what time to payback??

oops, i see that you answered someone else's question.

Edited June 27, 2006 by goblue1999