Employee Discount

[Newbiewar]

$20K buys you a Mazda3 S Grand Touring 4-door sedan with a manual trans, xenon headlights, heated leather seats, tilt/telescoping steering wheel, 4 wheel disc brakes, 4 wheel independent suspension, ABS, side airbags, electroluminescent gauges, automatic climate control, trip computer, 17" V-rated tires, tire pressure monitoring system, etc etc.  2.3L 160hp, 26/32MPG, 48mo warranty.  FUN TO DRIVE.

I'd take that in a heartbeat over a Cobalt.  All I'd add is the sunroof/bose package bring the cost up to $21K.

P.S. -- it also offers a NAV option and 5speed automatic trans...

SS 1SS Features shown below are in addition to, or in place of, LTZ 1LZ features: Engine: 2.4L DOHC ECOTEC four-cylinder with 171 hp Gauges: white-faced, Sport; include speedometer, fuel gauge and tachometer Seating: Sport Cloth seat trim Spoiler: rear, decklid Suspension: Sport Wheels: 17-inch, polished, cast-aluminum

+ Additional options

Interior: Gray Leather

Sound system feature, 7-speakers, Pioneer premium amplified system with tweeters and rear subwoofer speaker

Sunroof, power, tilt-sliding, includes mirror map lights

Transmission, 5-speed manual, includes 3.91 axle ratio

$19,035.00... Fun to Drive... 2k cheaper

or LTZ like i like...

Features shown below are in addition to, or in place of, LT 2LT features: Audio system: Pioneer premium amplified, includes tweeters and rear subwoofer speaker Seating: leather-appointed seats; includes driver and front passenger heated bucket seats Transmission: four-speed automatic Wheels: 16-inch, machined-face, cast-aluminum

+ Additional options

Brakes, 4-wheel antilock, front disc/rear drum

Sound system feature, 7-speakers, Pioneer premium amplified system with tweeters and rear subwoofer speaker

Sunroof, power, tilt-sliding, includes mirror map lights

Tires, P205/55R16, touring, blackwall

Transmission, 4-speed automatic, electronically controlled with overdrive, includes 3.63 axle ratio

$19,040.00... Fun to Drive... looks great... 2k cheaper

[BigPontiac]

SS 1SS Features shown below are in addition to, or in place of, LTZ 1LZ features: Engine: 2.4L DOHC ECOTEC four-cylinder with 171 hp Gauges: white-faced, Sport; include speedometer, fuel gauge and tachometer Seating: Sport Cloth seat trim Spoiler: rear, decklid Suspension: Sport Wheels: 17-inch, polished, cast-aluminum

+ Additional options

Interior: Gray Leather

Sound system feature, 7-speakers, Pioneer premium amplified system with tweeters and rear subwoofer speaker

Sunroof, power, tilt-sliding, includes mirror map lights

Transmission, 5-speed manual, includes 3.91 axle ratio

$19,035.00... Fun to Drive... 2k cheaper

or LTZ like i like...

Features shown below are in addition to, or in place of, LT 2LT features: Audio system: Pioneer premium amplified, includes tweeters and rear subwoofer speaker Seating: leather-appointed seats; includes driver and front passenger heated bucket seats Transmission: four-speed automatic Wheels: 16-inch, machined-face, cast-aluminum

+ Additional options

Brakes, 4-wheel antilock, front disc/rear drum

Sound system feature, 7-speakers, Pioneer premium amplified system with tweeters and rear subwoofer speaker

Sunroof, power, tilt-sliding, includes mirror map lights

Tires, P205/55R16, touring, blackwall

Transmission, 4-speed automatic, electronically controlled with overdrive, includes 3.63 axle ratio

$19,040.00... Fun to Drive... looks great... 2k cheaper

The 1SS with a manual trans and the options you quoted prices out at $20,125 using my zip for the Chevy...same as I used to price the Mazda. (I added the side airbags to make it comparable to the Mazda, not sure you included them in your "build".) The Mazda's price also includes the $560 destination charge...I couldn't tell if the Chevy did or not.

So the $1k price difference would buy me the xenon headlights, heated seats, rear disc brakes, independent rear suspension, electroluminescent gauges, automatic climate control, telescoping steering wheel, trip computer and tire pressure monitoring system. I'd still go for the Mazda. I'd also guess the Cobalt is wearing H rated tires compared to the the V rated 205/50s on the Mazda...

I haven't driven the Cobalt, but the 2.4L with the 5 speed in the HHR I test drove didn't impress me...gearbox and clutch were terrible...not fun to drive. The 2.4 in that application felt pretty slow. The two-tone leather seats and the special stripe on the "Spring Edition" were cool though!

NOTE to Chevy.com, I shouldn't have to use IE to access your website.

[Newbiewar]

The 1SS with a manual trans and the options you quoted prices out at $20,125 using my zip for the Chevy...same as I used to price the Mazda.  (I added the side airbags to make it comparable to the Mazda, not sure you included them in your "build".) The Mazda's price also includes the $560 destination charge...I couldn't tell if the Chevy did or not.

So the $1k price difference would buy me the xenon headlights, heated seats, rear disc brakes, independent rear suspension, electroluminescent gauges, automatic climate control, telescoping steering wheel, trip computer and tire pressure monitoring system.  I'd still go for the Mazda.  I'd also guess the Cobalt is wearing H rated tires compared to the the V rated 205/50s on the Mazda...

I haven't driven the Cobalt, but the 2.4L with the 5 speed in the HHR I test drove didn't impress me...gearbox and clutch were terrible...not fun to drive.  The 2.4 in that application felt pretty slow.  The two-tone leather seats and the special stripe on the "Spring Edition" were cool though!

NOTE to Chevy.com, I shouldn't have to use IE to access your website.

my thoughts... i'm quite certain that the 205/50R pirelli tires arent rated H... but the website doesnt give you that information... i'll have to check tomarrow at work...

i havent driven the basic 5 speed... only the supercharged... so i donno what to tell you about that... nor have i driven a manual HHR to compare the driving differences...

but the point isnt which is a better value, which one looks better, the point is that you didnt purchase either when you were in the market... thats GM's fault as well as Mazdas... new cars are always supposed to outclass used ones... even if its compared against a premium brand...

[evok]

Sorry, folks, but I have to break up this little love-in to teach LTB51 a few facts of life.

  Sir, I don't mislead or confuse or befuddle my customers.  I educate them to the total BS that we are having shoved down our throats by Japan Inc's war machine and by the lapdogs that we call the free press.

  If you truly believe that the Civic is the best small car out there, based on all the facts, then I want the phone number of your drug dealer because you are smoking better stuff than I can get.

 

Spoken like a true salesman.

[CARBIZ]

Just to add my two cents to the fray:

Since MOST people lease these things, I've priced out (Canadian) the Mazda 3 GT with automatic ( 5 spd) and added their leather heated seats and sunroof. I see no mention on Mazda's system of side air bags. The rain sensing wipers and heated mirrors are cool. Block heater is optional at $42.50 (reasonable) and fog lights are listed at $366, spoiler at $400.

This brings the Mazda to $27,015, including freight. Hmmm. The similarly equipped SS lists at $26,610, but we can sell it for $24,142. Their lease is 3.9% to the Cobalt's 2.0%. Their buy back is $11.937 versus the SS' $9,846.

Now, to the payment, again from the Mazda website, $378 plus taxes = $435 for 48 months. They don't say how much they want on delivery, but most of the imports want first payment, PDI and admin, so let's say they want $1,000 up front.

The Cobalt SS with sunroof, heated leather seats, XM radio, 220W Pioneer system, 2.4 engine, etc. etc is $337+txs=$388.

A WOPPING $47 A MONTH CHEAPER THAN THE MAZDA.

Again, back to the reality of the average Joe who has 2 screaming brats and bills to pay - $47 would break someone like that.

Fun factor? Well, that is subjective, but I have XM and that counts for a helluva lot and the Cobalt sound system is the best in the small car biz - that alone could save some young guy/gal $1,500 in aftermarket junk that they'd have to rip out when they return the lease.

The point of this exercise is: GM delivers, but the challenge is to tackle one customer at a time and educate them to what we have. If people on this board, who are supposedly more informed, take the attitude that Mazdas and Hondas, or anything IMPORTED is better than everything GM has to offer, then all is lost.

[evok]

IMO there is nothing compelling about the Cobalt besides the price. Recent TV ads show the Cobalt at $11k usd. Compared to the Civic that is a great deal. Car for car though, the Civic is the better vehicle all around. For a couple pennies more I would get the Mini over both. BUt that this is just me.

There are too sides of this discussion, customer and investor.

If I was a customer the Cobalt looks good on price with the rebates.

As an investor, Honda looks compelling because they can charge a preminum at a higher volume

Edited June 28, 2006 by evok

[BigPontiac]

Just to add my two cents to the fray:

  Since MOST people lease these things, I've priced out (Canadian) the Mazda 3 GT with automatic ( 5 spd) and added their leather heated seats and sunroof.  I see no mention on Mazda's system of side air bags.  The rain sensing wipers and heated mirrors are cool.  Block heater is optional at $42.50 (reasonable) and fog lights are listed at $366, spoiler at $400.

  This brings the Mazda to $27,015, including freight.  Hmmm.  The similarly equipped SS lists at $26,610, but we can sell it for $24,142.  Their lease is 3.9% to the Cobalt's 2.0%.  Their buy back is $11.937 versus the SS' $9,846.

  Now, to the payment, again from the Mazda website, $378 plus taxes = $435 for 48 months.  They don't say how much they want on delivery, but most of the imports want first payment, PDI and admin, so let's say they want $1,000 up front.

  The Cobalt SS with sunroof, heated leather seats, XM radio, 220W Pioneer system, 2.4 engine, etc. etc is $337+txs=$388. 

  A WOPPING $47 A MONTH CHEAPER THAN THE MAZDA.

  Again, back to the reality of the average Joe who has 2 screaming brats and bills to pay - $47 would break someone like that.

 

  Fun factor?  Well, that is subjective, but I have XM and that counts for a helluva lot and the Cobalt sound system is the best in the small car biz - that alone could save some young guy/gal $1,500 in aftermarket junk that they'd have to rip out when they return the lease.

  The point of this exercise is:  GM delivers, but the challenge is to tackle one customer at a time and educate them to what we have.  If people on this board, who are supposedly more informed, take the attitude that Mazdas and Hondas, or anything IMPORTED is better than everything GM has to offer, then all is lost.

While I applaud your confidence in the product you are selling, I also think you should get out and drive some of the competition's vehicles. For the money, the Cobalt is down a bunch of content compared with the Mazda3 (see previous posts). I'd rather have the xenon headlights over a spoiler. I'll also keep the manual transmission too.

From the MazdaUSA website, the moonroof/stereo package I added and the standard side airbags:

ABS/SAB/SAC Package (Standard on Grand Touring Package)

* Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD) and Brake Assist

* Dual front seat-mounted side-impact air bags

* Side-impact front and rear air curtains

Moonroof & 6-CD and Bose Audio System Package

* Power sliding glass moonroof with sunshade

* In-dash 6-disc CD changer

* Bose® audio system including:

o 222W digital amplifier with 5 channels of equalization

o Four 6.5" low/midrange door speakers

o Two 1.5" front door tweeters

o 5.25" woofer in 4.5-liter tuned ported enclosure under front passenger seat

Halogen fog lights were also standard on the US model.

I personally look at cars based on merit, not the payment I can get it for. I like to know what I'm paying for the car...potential trade-in also offsets sales tax in my state. I leased, once...never again. I also consult KBB, edmunds, etc before I walk into a dealership and check financing rates online. I also ask for my keys back after my potential trade-in is appraised before sitting down to negotiate. I hate getting the "what kind of payment are you looking for" question.

I happily picked up my first CPO BMW on eBay from BMW of Manhattan...fantastic experience all around.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I personally look at cars based on merit, not the payment I can get it for. 

I agree. That's why I'm not buying a new car right now. I'll wait until I can afford what I like, instead of buying an Aveo just for the sake of having a new car.

[CARBIZ]

Well, BigPontiac, thanks for doing your bit for the economy. I care about what happens on this side of the Pacific.

And for my money, the Cobalt SS is every bit the car as the Mazda 3 GT. Bully for you that price doesn't matter, again, for those who can't read

I AM TALKING ABOUT THE AVERAGE PERSON HERE.

The problem is that so-called enthusiasts rule the roost and tell the consumer what they want. Confused, people end up listening to their BS and end up buying/leasing a BMW when, in fact, a Fusion or Impala or Allure would have been fine.

Then the poor sap is into $1,200 for set of tires, $200 oil changes and premium gas. (This happened when a friend of mine leased an Acura TL a few years ago.)

Who gets to drive these vehicles at anwhere there capabilities? With the frost heaves/pot holes taking over the roads, I would rather drive a Buick than a BMW any day, but that is just me.

And I do drive what I sell. Personally, in stop and go traffic a manual shift is a waste of time; however, that is your choice if you want to crawl along the freeway at 10 mph and have to shift every 4 seconds.

[regfootball]

IMO there is nothing compelling about the Cobalt besides the price.  Recent TV ads show the Cobalt at $11k usd.  Compared to the Civic that is a great deal.  Car for car though, the Civic is the better vehicle all around.  For a couple pennies more I would get the Mini over both.  BUt that this is just me.

There are too sides of this discussion, customer and investor.

If I was a customer the Cobalt looks good on price with the rebates.

As an investor, Honda looks compelling because they can charge a preminum at a higher volume

CARS ARE not AN INVESTMENT, THEY ARE AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AN EXPENSE!!!!

[BigPontiac]

Well, BigPontiac, thanks for doing your bit for the economy.  I care about what happens on this side of the Pacific.

  And for my money, the Cobalt SS is every bit the car as the Mazda 3 GT.  Bully for you that price doesn't matter, again, for those who can't read

  I AM TALKING ABOUT THE AVERAGE PERSON HERE.

  The problem is that so-called enthusiasts rule the roost and tell the consumer what they want.  Confused, people end up listening to their BS and end up buying/leasing a BMW when, in fact, a Fusion or Impala or Allure would have been fine.

  Then the poor sap is into $1,200 for set of tires, $200 oil changes and premium gas.  (This happened when a friend of mine leased an Acura TL a few years ago.)

  Who gets to drive these vehicles at anwhere there capabilities?  With the frost heaves/pot holes taking over the roads, I would rather drive a Buick than a BMW any day, but that is just me.

  And I do drive what I sell.  Personally, in stop and go traffic a manual shift is a waste of time; however, that is your choice if you want to crawl along the freeway at 10 mph and have to shift every 4 seconds.

I'll reiterate, I care about the vehicle cost, not the monthly payment. Focus on the cost of the car first, then the monthly payment.

My understanding is that all the car dealers buy their cars the manufacturer, so in buying any car from a new car dealer I am doing my part for the economy. If you were referring to the auto manufacturers themselves...is it better to buy a Japanese car assembled in Japan where the profit goes to a Japanese company which has an American company who owns a large stake, e.g. Mazda and Ford? Or maybe it's better to buy an American car which is assembled in Mexico like the Fusion, which was derived from the Japanese Mazda6. Or better yet an American car like the Buick LaCrosse that is assembled in Canada? OR maybe a Japanese car like the Honda Accord assembled in Marysville, OH USA. How 'bout German car like a BMW Z4 assembled in Spartanburg, SC. Which of these options would be "doing my part"?

I give plenty of money to Mr. Goodwrench to keep my GMC Sierra running...my LOCAL economy. Same with the frame-off restoration of my '68 Pontiac.

Maybe, just maybe, GM would sell more cars by listening to what buyers want in a car instead of telling me what I should buy. Continuing to focus on the "average" buyer in their dwindling ownership base limits the appeal of their vehicles to everyone else. GM does well in trucks, their cars need work. They've improved a lot during Lutz's reign, but they need to continue to work on the details.

Also, my BMW has bumper-to-bumper maintenance included for the 4yrs/50K miles. That covers all scheduled maintenance or even brake rotors.

Edited June 28, 2006 by BigPontiac

[97regalGS]

CARS ARE not AN INVESTMENT, THEY ARE AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AN EXPENSE!!!!

I think he meant as a stock investor with a choice of investing in GM or Honda.

[evok]

CARS ARE not AN INVESTMENT, THEY ARE AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AN EXPENSE!!!!

WTF are you talking about?

Please learn how to read!

[sciguy_0504]

WTF are you talking about?

Please learn how to read!

I think he means that cars always lose money so they really cannot be considered an investment, which is supposed to make money or at least hold its value.

However, reg, would you rather buy a car that is worth $5,000 after a few years or one that is worth a few grand more than that? That's where the investment parts comes in.

[Flybrian]

However, reg, would you rather buy a car that is worth $5,000 after a few years or one that is worth a few grand more than that?  That's where the investment parts comes in.

Depends if you like the car and aren't a chronic trader.

I'd rather 'spend' another $5,000 on depreciation for a car I truly enjoy rather than 'saving' that money on a car I don't have any care for.

[evok]

I think he means that cars always lose money so they really cannot be considered an investment, which is supposed to make money or at least hold its value.

However, reg, would you rather buy a car that is worth $5,000 after a few years or one that is worth a few grand more than that?  That's where the investment parts comes in.

One thing I have never seen is a good study on is this:

Actual transaction price versus residual value after a given period of time. There has been some anecdotal evidence that for a buyer of a domestic car if actual transaction price is taken into account the residual is not that bad. It is the sucker that buys close to MSRP that gets killed.

PS - I knew what he meant.

[Guest buickman]

One thing I have never seen is a good study on is this:

Actual transaction price versus residual value after a given period of time.  There has been some anecdotal evidence that for a buyer of a domestic car if actual transaction price is taken into account the residual is not that bad.  It is the sucker that buys close to MSRP that gets killed.

PS - I knew what he meant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know evok, you are a very intelligent and insightful man. If you and I could ever put our heads together, the sky is the limit on what could be accomplished.

Buickman

[regfootball]

I think he means that cars always lose money so they really cannot be considered an investment, which is supposed to make money or at least hold its value.

However, reg, would you rather buy a car that is worth $5,000 after a few years or one that is worth a few grand more than that?  That's where the investment parts comes in.

there is no investment component to a car.

it is purely an expense proposition. how much money are you going to spend on transportation over x amount of time. add up car payments, insurance (something that GM and Ford are usually still cheaper in), gas (hopefully not premium), license tabs, maintenance and repair costs.

there is no investment component to a car.

there is no investment component to a car.

you are not investing in anything. every damn car loses money. you INVEST to make money.

so the cars that have 'higher resale'.......also cost more to start almost without fail. much more.

maybe mr. true delta can plug his site here.

you're not always gonna get assfked on a domestic, and your not always going to come out smelling like a rose on Honda or Toyota.

If there is one trend I fully expect to see with the sales increase of Toyota, is there resale value to go down. two reasons, they are bigger and need to feed the machine in the future and fend off HEEYOONDIE so they can't resist flooding the market. increased supply = lower resale. Second, the 'status' of owning one will start to go away, as more and more non-privileged folks start to buy more toyotas, and as their quality inevtiably withers, the mystique will start to die and the resale phenomenon created by it will still to erode. Plus you've got all those folks trying toyhonda for the first time and in 2-3 years might simply decide its not wroth the fuss anymore because the cost is too high. So now we'll have a glut of used ToyoHondas.

Its inevitable. Toyotas resale will start to fall into line more with the average of all other makes. There's only so many stupid folks who believe the myth that its 'more than just a car'.

Check another topic to see my Caravan vs. Odyssey cost ananlysis and why even the most stuffy yuppie can't justify the notion of an Odyssey being cheaper to run than a Grand Caravan, because no matter how you slice it, the Odyssey is much more and it is due to the luxury over necessity factor. Even though the ODy's %age is higher on resid., the price difference from the start comparably equipped in either a lease or a buy situation in no way can be manufactured in favor of the Odyssey. So in the end, you are spending more, yes, maybe on a better van, BUT DON'T DARE CALL IT AN INVESTMENT. IT'S AN EXPENSE.

[regfootball]

One thing I have never seen is a good study on is this:

Actual transaction price versus residual value after a given period of time.  There has been some anecdotal evidence that for a buyer of a domestic car if actual transaction price is taken into account the residual is not that bad.  It is the sucker that buys close to MSRP that gets killed.

PS - I knew what he meant.

again, see my caravan vs. odyssey analysis in an older thread in the r1ce marques board.

[regfootball]

You know evok, you are a very intelligent and insightful man. If you and I could ever put our heads together, the sky is the limit on what could be accomplished.

Buickman

I could sell more Buicks than you can............!

[sciguy_0504]

there is no investment component to a car.

it is purely an expense proposition.  how much money are you going to spend on transportation over x amount of time.  add up car payments, insurance (something that GM and Ford are usually still cheaper in), gas (hopefully not premium), license tabs, maintenance and repair costs.

there is no investment component to a car.

there is no investment component to a car.

you are not investing in anything.  every damn car loses money.  you INVEST to make money.

so the cars that have 'higher resale'.......also cost more to start almost without fail.  much more.

maybe mr. true delta can plug his site here.

you're not always gonna get assfked on a domestic, and your not always going to come out smelling like a rose on Honda or Toyota.

If there is one trend I fully expect to see with the sales increase of Toyota, is there resale value to go down.  two reasons, they are bigger and need to feed the machine in the future and fend off HEEYOONDIE so they can't resist flooding the market.  increased supply = lower resale.  Second, the 'status' of owning one will start to go away, as more and more non-privileged folks start to buy more toyotas, and as their quality inevtiably withers, the mystique will start to die and the resale phenomenon created by it will still to erode.  Plus you've got all those folks trying toyhonda for the first time and in 2-3 years might simply decide its not wroth the fuss anymore because the cost is too high.  So now we'll have a glut of used ToyoHondas.

Its inevitable.  Toyotas resale will start to fall into line more with the average of all other makes.  There's only so many stupid folks who believe the myth that its 'more than just a car'. 

Check another topic to see my Caravan vs. Odyssey cost ananlysis and why even the most stuffy yuppie can't justify the notion of an Odyssey being cheaper to run than a Grand Caravan, because no matter how you slice it, the Odyssey is much more and it is due to the luxury over necessity factor.  Even though the ODy's %age is higher on resid., the price difference from the start comparably equipped in either a lease or a buy situation in no way can be manufactured in favor of the Odyssey.  So in the end, you are spending more, yes, maybe on a better van, BUT DON'T DARE CALL IT AN INVESTMENT.  IT'S AN EXPENSE.

Either way you are right. A car is not an investment.

[Guest buickman]

I could sell more Buicks than you can............!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I sold 7 today, how was your day?

Buickman

By the way also bottom lined a purchase agreement on a $146,000 house and ran a dealership.

[LTB51]

according to the Insurance instatue for highway safty, the cobalt got a "good" rating in its crash test ratings while the corolla got "poor" and the civic wasnt even tested...

Civic got a gold rating from the IIHS (only 2 other cars in the class have done that). Cobalt did well, getting good on front and rear while getting an acceptable on the side (with optional airbags).

the base civic is 1500$ more then the base cobalt, and it doesnt even include a radio or a/c if i remember correctly...

It is misleading to compare base to base. It is not always easy, but to be fair you have to look at features as well. Up until recently, the base G6 had a V6 to the base camry and accord's 4 cyls. It wouldn't have been fair to compare base to base in that case either.

Carbiz and I are in Canada, and here (as far as I know) the base civic has MP3/CD/etc.

people say it has better resale value... but its residual value percent isnt much different, its just a more expensive vehicle to start...

While that does have some effect, as you mention the ALG does rate the civic higher than the Cobalt.

To be clear, I'm not saying that the cobalt is bad. It is a major step up from the cavalier. But it isn't as good a car as the civic.

[LTB51]

The Cobalt is 145hp/155lb.ft - yeah, I know, torque doesn't matter.  That's why Hondas and Mazdas sound like Moulinex mixers on acid as they whine by on the street.

I didn't say it doesn't matter, I said it doesn't affect fuel economy the way you implied. Just like a 5SPD has an effect even if your customers don't know what it is. But I'm glad to hear that you have never mislead your customers the way you attempted to mislead us at C&G.

  This vehicle leases out for $333+taxes=$383 a month.  Their due on delivery is listed as $784, but that doesn't cover admin, registration or taxes, so I'll round that up to $1,300 - it could be more, but most dealers charge $3-400 for admin and taxes are 15%.  Their buy back is listed as $9,444 and an interest rate of 5.9%.  And judging by how rude the dealers in our area are, forget about discounts.

Well first off, yes you can get discounts. Of course as a brand new car that is selling well they won't be as good as what one could get on a cobalt. But if you aren't getting $1000 off you aren't trying.

The 784 is an estimate which includes the first month's payment as well as a security deposit + misc fees. You can buy with 0 down and it has no affect on the posted prices. Plus the doc fees at my local honda are $150, not the $3-400 you mention. So shave about 1,150 off your estimate.

I, on the other hand have (in stock) a 2006 LT coupe, with heated leather seats, sunroof, 16" Pirelli tires and alloy rims, side air bags, leather steering wheel with radio controls, 220W Pioneer system with 10" subwoofer, XM radio (3 months free) power sunroof, 4 spd automatic, which stickers at $24,470, for (ready for this) $304+txs = $350 with ONLY $350 due on signing.  Now, to make it even with the Honda offer, my payment would be about $328 taxes in with $1,328 due on delivery.

I like the way you listed 4SPD like it was better than honda's 5SPD.

Or how you listed the 4 air bags in the Cobalt like it was better than the standard 6 on the civic. Or how you choose the DX-G instead of the LX for $14 more per month as it would negate most of your remaining Cobalt "pluses".

As mentioned above, the 1,328 due at signing is inaccurate so you can add it back in to the payments (remove the amount due at delivery, take off $1,000 for negotiating and the Civic LX is pretty much the same per month as your Cobalt).

And while you are at it, please provide the actual cost of the vehicle being financed, the interest rate, the monthly payments, and the actual residual. Perhaps list them one line after another so that they are easy to see.

Again, I am glad you don't do this to your customers.

  KEEPING UP SO FAR?

Well I'm having to wade through a bit of misinformation, but I'm doing my best

  So, Chevrolet can give you more power, leather, sunroof, a kick ass sound system, power everything, ABS, your precious safety stuff, a bigger trunk, bigger tires, better rubber, a split rear seat, easy entry front passenger seat (ever try and get in and out of a Honda?  Didn't think so!), foldaway mirrors....well, I could go on  AND $55 per month LESS.

Cobalt acceleration is ~10% better than the civic at the cost of ~30% fuel economy. Civic has fold away mirrors. Civic has ABS (standard, all models). As I mentioned, cobalt has fewer air bags (civic has 6, standard on all models). Even the Civic DX-G has all the power features of the Cobalt (I believe). And yes, I have managed to get in and out of a Honda.

Again, I am glad that you only mislead C&G this way, not your customers.

  And $55X48=$2,640 and their buy back is $635 More (so much for Honda resale!)

Heh. You quote a Cobalt "worth" $24,470 to a Civic worth $21,505 and the civic has a resid of 9,500 to the Cobalt's 8,900 and you mock Honda's resale? So what is the price that is actually being financed anyways?

  And you don't think a 4 year old Cobalt with leather seats, 16" Pirellis and a sunroof won't sell for more than a DX-G Civic?????????  Are you high?

Hard to tell as I can't look up the price of a four year old Cobalt. But a quick review of autotrader shows that a 2002 Cavalier goes for 6-7K compared to a 2002 Civic LX's 11-12K. But I don't think the Cobalt or the 16" tires and sunroof will make any large difference compared to the other features which the civic has over the covalt. Based on that, I imagine the Civic would still sell for more.

  I can give you a Cobalt SS sedan, with 2.4 litre engine, leather and sunroof for less money than the DX-G!!!!

I'm game. Give me the details. Amount to finance, rate, monthly payment, residual.

  I, sir, deal in the real world.  I get out and talk to the people driving these cars.  Honda builds a good product, no question.  But if you are a young person, at their first job, wouldn't $55 a month be better in your pocket?????  People I deal with can barely afford $300 a month, let alone $380.

Yes, a young person might go for the lower payment. They don't take into account residual value, the cost of gas, reliability, safety, etc. which more than make up for the $30 per month.

  As to the BS about Honda being a more durable car - again PTHHHHHHHHHHH....

I stopped reading after you said they were similar to JD Powers

I asked a simple question: How much for a 7yr 130,00 - 160,00ish comprehensive warranty on the Cobalt? What is the deductable (if any)? I am assuming that roadside assitance would be included. If you are going to respond to anything in this post, please provide that information.

Edited June 29, 2006 by LTB51

[The O.C.]

  The problem is that so-called enthusiasts rule the roost and tell the consumer what they want.  Confused, people end up listening to their BS and end up buying/leasing a BMW when, in fact, a Fusion or Impala or Allure would have been fine.

You are smoking crack.....

There is no way you can compare a BMW....ANY BMW to a Fusion, Impala, or LaCrosse.

People may like the BMW badge but there are way more substanital reasons why a good portion of the public likes driving those cars.

People don't necessarily drink as much "kool-aid" as you think.....

[pow]

I sold 7 today, how was your day?

Buickman

By the way also bottom lined a purchase agreement on a $146,000 house and ran a dealership.

Come to Southern California. You'd be lucky to get 7 people INTO a Buick showroom (or find a middle-class, 4 bed home for under $1,146,000...)

[Flybrian]

I have a feeling alot of younger people my age who buy BMWs would buy Abercrombie & Fitch hamburgers.

There are those that value what the BMW/Mercedes/etc heritage means and those that value the badge; those proportions are alot closer than you'd like.

[CARBIZ]

OC, the point I am making is that sitting in traffic, driving to work - you would be happy to have a smooth, quiet Allure or Fusion and save the ten grand. Sure, the once a month you get to open it up on a back road makes a BMW seem worth it, but at the end of the day, I'd rather have the ten grand in a retirment investment or put it towards a boat.

And LT...where to start...

It is late and I am at home, so I will try and address from memory what you are saying.

Doc fees of $150? You are high. EVERY dealer (at least in southern Ontario) charges between $3-500 in hidden crap: PPSA, admin, registration, PDI (the Japs love that one) and all of it is taxable. Ever see the Hyundai ads in Toronto for $169 and ZERO down? They want $2,000 on delivery. I stand by my numbers. Sure, you can put the up front stuff in the payment (like we do) and I showed you what would happen to our numbers if we matched the way Honda does it. The Honda website states that "certain fees" may not be included and at the ver least the $784 they list is TAXABLE, so that alone becomes $901.

NO MISINFORMATION. YOU CAN'T READ.

$1,000 off a Civic in Toronto. Now? Keep on smokin', baby. I called my friend at Roadsport Honda (he used to work at our dealership) and he laughed. Of course, if you are shopping by phone, they will tell you anything to get you in the door. Whip out the credit card, honey - now we're talking!!!!

DX-G DOES NOT HAVE FOLDING MIRRORS OR SPLIT FOLDING REAR SEAT.

I picked the DX-G, not the LX because that is what they sell. Just like our LT is popular. I only picked leather, etc. on the Cobalt just to show how much MORE equipment you can get for $50 a month less.

30% less fuel economy? DO YOU DRIVE LIKE MY GREAT AUNT? Press both of these cars to the floor and the real world numbers will be much closer than you think...flatter torque curve...more usable torque...why do I bother????

FOUR YEAR OLD CAVALIER FOR $6-7K? WOW! Considering we were selling 2005 Cavaliers for $11,999 a year ago, that makes the Cavalier, like - 50% residual after 4 years? I'd say that was damned good, wouldn't you?

Oh, and yeah, one more thing: the crappy J-cars still outsold the Civic in Canada in their last year.

A 6 yr/120k GMPP warranty with zero deductible is probably around $2k. As I said, I am at home now, but the dealers make a lot of money off the warranty so the price spread probably is pretty big.

Anyway, I don't know why I bother. Import humpers have been drinking the kool aid for far too long. I can get more from memory at midnight in my underwear than you can come up with all day.....

Oh, and I sold an Equinox today BECAUSE I used all this factual information when the customers were in two days ago and THEN they looked again at the Xtrail and went onto the websites that I directed them to...after signing the woman said she was happy to buy a vehicle that was designed, engineered and built in CANADA.

[regfootball]

I sold 7 today, how was your day?

Buickman

By the way also bottom lined a purchase agreement on a $146,000 house and ran a dealership.

hey man, checkm out my PM, by the way, a 146,000 dollar house is more like a college dorm room......146k, that's kinda paltry...a drop in the bucket they say. Or did you mean 416k?

[regfootball]

There is no way you can compare a BMW....ANY BMW to a Fusion, Impala, or LaCrosse.

the fusion is much nicer than the X3. the X3 is the CIM A RR ON of SUV's.....

Edited June 29, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

I have a feeling alot of younger people my age who buy BMWs would buy Abercrombie & Fitch hamburgers.

There are those that value what the BMW/Mercedes/etc heritage means and those that value the badge; those proportions are alot closer than you'd like.

are those good burgers? I love burgers...especially sliders

[CARBIZ]

Oh, and BigPontiac:

BUYING A JAPANESE OR GERMAN CAR, NO MATTER WHERE IT IS "BUILT" IS NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME THING AS BUYING A FORD OR GM PRODUCT.

PERIOD. END OF STORY.

We have debated this to death on C&G. Others more learned than me can haul out the quotes, magazine articles, etc.

We gotta keep the technology, the R&D, the tool & dyemaking and the patent ownerships in North America or we are all going to be working for Wal-Mart in 10 years.

If you can't see that, then I hope your kids learn to speak Chinese......

[regfootball]

why when i type 'cim arron' does it replace it with 'valiant attempt at an entry-level luxury car'? WTF?

Edited June 29, 2006 by regfootball

[BigPontiac]

Oh, and BigPontiac:

  BUYING A JAPANESE OR GERMAN CAR, NO MATTER WHERE IT IS "BUILT" IS NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME THING AS BUYING A FORD OR GM PRODUCT.

  PERIOD.  END OF STORY.

  We have debated this to death on C&G.  Others more learned than me can haul out the quotes, magazine articles, etc.

  We gotta keep the technology, the R&D, the tool & dyemaking and the patent ownerships in North America or we are all going to be working for Wal-Mart in 10 years.

 

  If you can't see that, then I hope your kids learn to speak Chinese......

Um, if you're in Canada and you are selling Chevy's you do realize you are selling "foreign" cars by your own definition, right? Where's you national pride? Why not sell Canadian cars??? An AMERICAN car, in CANADA?

Why is sending American jobs to Canada any more acceptable than sending them to Mexico? China? India?

Read about current events? Heard about the latest trends by American companies to outsource IT service jobs? Offshore was India, China, Russia, etc. NOW there's nearshore. And where is "nearshore"? CANADA.

[regfootball]

Um, if you're in Canada and you are selling Chevy's you do realize you are selling "foreign" cars by your own definition, right?  Where's you national pride?  Why not sell Canadian cars???  An AMERICAN car, in CANADA?

Why is sending American jobs to Canada any more acceptable than sending them to Mexico?  China?  India?

Read about current events?  Heard about the latest trends by American companies to outsource IT service jobs?  Offshore was India, China, Russia, etc.  NOW there's nearshore.  And where is "nearshore"?  CANADA.

stop ripping the Canadians, they are selling us most of our oil!!!!

[CARBIZ]

We could debate this all day, Pontiac.

GM sold a half million cars in Canada this year. The Auto Pact goes back 40 years. McLaughlin goes back 80 years in Oshawa.

How many non-Japanese cars were sold in Japan last year? What's that...tens of thousands, maybe?

It is only fitting that GM engineer, design and build cars in Canada (Equinox, Impala). Japan INc. does just enough to convince people like you (and Washington that they are as American as apple pie....and it's working, apparently.

Read about Japanese trade policies. Educate yourself. Then buy a Lexus.

[pow]

We could debate this all day, Pontiac.

  GM sold a half million cars in Canada this year.  The Auto Pact goes back 40 years.  McLaughlin goes back 80 years in Oshawa.

  How many non-Japanese cars were sold in Japan last year?  What's that...tens of thousands, maybe?

  It is only fitting that GM engineer, design and build cars in Canada (Equinox, Impala).  Japan INc. does just enough to convince people like you (and Washington that they are as American as apple pie....and it's working, apparently.

  Read about Japanese trade policies.  Educate yourself.  Then buy a Lexus.

In the real world, people base their decisions on ability, not ethics or sentimentalism. GM sells on product, not on some notion of patriotism. Want more buyers? Don't whine or bitch. Make better products. Have a &#036;h&#33;ty image? Change that through creative branding and planning. It's a market economy.

[BigPontiac]

We could debate this all day, Pontiac.

  GM sold a half million cars in Canada this year.  The Auto Pact goes back 40 years.  McLaughlin goes back 80 years in Oshawa.

  How many non-Japanese cars were sold in Japan last year?  What's that...tens of thousands, maybe?

  It is only fitting that GM engineer, design and build cars in Canada (Equinox, Impala).  Japan INc. does just enough to convince people like you (and Washington that they are as American as apple pie....and it's working, apparently.

  Read about Japanese trade policies.  Educate yourself.  Then buy a Lexus.

Whether you'd like to admit it or not, you participate in a global economy on a daily basis. That Chevy Aveo in your showroom...made in Korea. The engine in that Equinox...made in China. And I hope your dealership doesn't have a Saab franchise...cuz they're made in Sweden of all places! Or Pontiac...the GTO hails from Australia in case you missed it...

Your perspective seems to be USA/Canda = good, everything else = bad. So 40 years "nationalizes" the Canadian assembly plants as American? So, 20 more and the Marysville, OH Honda plant gets their citizenship too?

Where were the parts for you PC made? Your cell phone? TV?

The only constant in the world is change. Adapt or perish, your choice. Wishing it doesn't exist isn't an option any more.

Edited June 29, 2006 by BigPontiac

[Mr.Krinkle]

the sale is on as we sit here with this back and forth.

as long as people are going to the showrooms and buying cars its a good thing.

the thing that concerns me the most, and i dont know how true it is, is the credit policy and the possibility of repos.

i cant for the life of me see this as that ill conceived. i hope someone is keeping track and can at least verify that these credit checks arent as lenient as what has already been said.

[evok]

OC, the point I am making is that sitting in traffic, driving to work - you would be happy to have a smooth, quiet Allure or Fusion and save the ten grand.  Sure, the once a month you get to open it up on a back road makes a BMW seem worth it, but at the end of the day, I'd rather have the ten grand in a retirment investment or put it towards a boat.

Who needs a boat, when a few logs strapped together with some twine will do just fine.

[CARBIZ]

I see, attempt at humour: Impala = bunch of logs strung together

BMW= Hatteras yacht

How about GM = your kids get to go to school

BMW = they work at 3 jobs to pay the taxes that have built all

the transplant factories in America

[evok]

I see, attempt at humour: 

It was not an attempt at humour, it was humour. Your statements lack consistency and I made sure I pointed out the irony.

[Flybrian]

I think its pretty clear our realtionship with Canada is alot different than it is with Japan, Korea, India, and even Mexico. Our proximity, common history, and shared brotherhood makes all the difference when it comes to the emotional aspect of what we're talking about. I know many Canadians that consider a GM or Ford as much a domestic car as if it were an indigenous make and of course Americans consider a car a domestic regardless if its built in Oshawa or Lake Orion.

I understand what everyone is saying about globalization, etc, but ignoring the significant difference between the US-Canadian and US-_____ realtionship is ignoring a lot.

[Chris_Doane]

I think we should bomb Canada.

[97regalGS]

I think we should bomb Canada.

where would you start. it's a pretty big place!

[zhawk]

where would you start.  it's a pretty big place!

Quebec????

waits for the inevitable fallout

I'm joking here, sort of.

[Cory Wolfe]

Oh, and BigPontiac:

  BUYING A JAPANESE OR GERMAN CAR, NO MATTER WHERE IT IS "BUILT" IS NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME THING AS BUYING A FORD OR GM PRODUCT.

  PERIOD.  END OF STORY.

  We have debated this to death on C&G.  Others more learned than me can haul out the quotes, magazine articles, etc.

  We gotta keep the technology, the R&D, the tool & dyemaking and the patent ownerships in North America or we are all going to be working for Wal-Mart in 10 years.

 

  If you can't see that, then I hope your kids learn to speak Chinese......

I buy what I like. I buy what makes me happy. It's not my fault GM isn't and hasn't made a car that just... fulfills me. But yes... I agree with BigPontiac. Personally, I think you're paranoid. I'm going to be able to laugh in your face when those 10 years come... hell, give it 20 years. Oh... and dealers are evil.

[haypops]

I think its pretty clear our realtionship with Canada is alot different than it is with Japan, Korea, India, and even Mexico. Our proximity, common history, and shared brotherhood makes all the difference when it comes to the emotional aspect of what we're talking about. I know many Canadians that consider a GM or Ford as much a domestic car as if it were an indigenous make and of course Americans consider a car a domestic regardless if its built in Oshawa or Lake Orion.

How/why do you differentiate between CAnada and Mexico?

[CaddyXLR-V]

OC, the point I am making is that sitting in traffic, driving to work - you would be happy to have a smooth, quiet Allure or Fusion and save the ten grand.  Sure, the once a month you get to open it up on a back road makes a BMW seem worth it, but at the end of the day, I'd rather have the ten grand in a retirment investment or put it towards a boat.

You might be happy with one of those cars, but I wouldn't be. Not everybody wants a smooth quiet car. I'd rather spend an extra $10,000 to get a BMW than to drive an Allure or Fusion. Edited June 29, 2006 by CaddyXLR-V

[97regalGS]

How/why do you differentiate between CAnada and Mexico?

tell ya what. you keep your cars and we'll keep our oil, wood, nickel, and other natural resources. oh, and by the way, you're gonna have to start sending that oil from Alaska via ship now.