Hyundai News:Is Hyundai starting the next Pony Car war?

[G. David Felt]

Ju-yung Chung founding Chairman of Hyundai wanted to help rebuild Korea after the Korean War and improve the lives of the people. He introduced at the 1974 Turin Motor Show the Pony Coupe Concept.

To quote Hyundai: 

"The two-door sports car’s exterior featured a sleek roofline, pure surfaces, dynamic proportion profiles and a unique shape for the B pillar, which elevated its daring spirit. The interior showcased an iconic sensibility with the Giugiaro monocoque design and driver-centered floating architecture. 

With its unique aesthetic sensibility, the 1974 Pony Coupe Concept was a groundbreaking model in its time. Unfortunately, due to the adverse global economic conditions in the late 1970s, what could have been Hyundai’s first sensational sports car was unable to reach commercial production and was lost to history."

We all have seen how much Hyundai Motor Group has grown into the current global auto industry it is today.

We fast forward to the desire of Hyundai to bring a modern version of this Pony Car to concept form again when they introduced the N Vision 74 Concept Car.

Comparisons of the original to the current.

The N Vision 74 will now compete in the Concept Cars and Prototype category at the Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este, one of the worlds largest and best know competitions from May 19th to May 21st.

We now have via a Korean News site:

 [Exclusive]"Pony Coupe will be mass-produced" Hyundai Motor Company to be announced later this month - Money Today (mt.co.kr)

That Hyundai is going to move forward with this EV. Inside sources have stated that on the 27th of June, Hyundai will hold a Pony Day at their Hyundai Motor Studio in Seoul to reveal the production model of the Pony Coupe

According to various sources, the Pony Coupe from 1974 was of great inspiration in the creation of the DeLorean DMC 12 which was as we all know later used for a time machine in the 1980's classic "Back to the Future"

Hyundai as a very profitable auto company has been returning to it's past legacy for inspiration especially in production of their IONIQ series of EVs. Auto enthusiasts have been very vocal about Hyundai producing the N Vision 74 car at a time that many auto companies are going truck/SUV only.

Hyundai has returned to bringing back the original Pony Car by working with the original designer Giorgetto Giugiaro and his son along with others in the Hyundai family to restore for public enjoyment the Pony Car.

The original specs for the Pony Car.

The N Vision 74 Concept specification also includes a Hydrogen generator for extended driving range.

Hyundai brought back the original team that created the Pony Car for the review of the restoration.

Hyundai has opened a Heritage Exhibition to high light the PONY and introduce RETRACE a book and magazine series celebrating the brands heritage. 

Hyundai Motor Opens Heritage Exhibition 'PONY, the timeless' and Introduces RETRACE, the Heritage Publication Series - Hyundai Newsroom

This brings us to what inspired this story to begin with, the news story that Hyundai will during the Month of June 2023 reveal a production EV version of the N Vision 74 Concept.

Hyundai already has the platform and 77.4kWh battery pack to support such a performance EV.

The question for you the reader:

Is this the start of a new Pony car war with American brands as Hyundai brings to market a 2 door coupe with 680 HP (500kW) and 664 lb-ft of torque (900Nm) with RWD torque vectoring EV?

Should Mustang, Camaro and Challengers be worried?

Will the Japanese and Chinese respond?

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[G. David Felt]

Love this Video that Hyundai released on the 74. The video gives a great overview of the original Pony car and the new. Interesting that Hyundai clearly copied the Ford Mustang Bronco Horse.

 

 

[Robert Hall]

Really neat looking car...can see a bit of DeLorean in the profile.   Love the front on the new concept and the flared fenders...

[G. David Felt]

@oldshurst442 Seems you are getting your wish for more cars, Hyundai has green lite this Pony Car and now they have released a teaser of an upcoming IONIQ 5 N edition, performance EV car.

31 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Really neat looking car...can see a bit of DeLorean in the profile.   Love the front on the new concept and the flared fenders...

Yes Delorian used this original Pony car as inspiration for the Delorian. Hyundai had this press release photo.

[smk4565]

The problem is a 2 door car is low volume, thus it will be high priced to make up for being low volume, then less people will buy it.  I doubt they sell these for $40,000, which is still a decent amount for a Hyundai coupe, but where it would need to be priced to get sales.  

[G. David Felt]

18 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The problem is a 2 door car is low volume, thus it will be high priced to make up for being low volume, then less people will buy it.  I doubt they sell these for $40,000, which is still a decent amount for a Hyundai coupe, but where it would need to be priced to get sales.  

This is built on the same EV platform as the other EVs Hyundai Builds. They like GM has stated that EVs will allow a bigger diverse selection of autos at affordable prices. Yes everyone is starting at the high end of prices to recover R&D, but there is nothing to say that this will be a high priced 2 door car.

I would say your applying ICE limitations of auto building to EVs which is wrong and I think Hyundai while seeing a place for a top performance Pony Car, will also realize they have a market for the entry and mid-level pony cars.

This one I expect to come back and bite you in the ass as Hyundai has brought their EVs to market at much lower prices than others and are selling in decent volumes.

I will have to slow down or stop by and snag a picture of the Doug's Hyundai as they have a ton of EVs delivered this week and so has a very nice selection to buy from.

[smk4565]

10 hours ago, David said:

This is built on the same EV platform as the other EVs Hyundai Builds. They like GM has stated that EVs will allow a bigger diverse selection of autos at affordable prices. Yes everyone is starting at the high end of prices to recover R&D, but there is nothing to say that this will be a high priced 2 door car.

I would say your applying ICE limitations of auto building to EVs which is wrong and I think Hyundai while seeing a place for a top performance Pony Car, will also realize they have a market for the entry and mid-level pony cars.

This one I expect to come back and bite you in the ass as Hyundai has brought their EVs to market at much lower prices than others and are selling in decent volumes.

I will have to slow down or stop by and snag a picture of the Doug's Hyundai as they have a ton of EVs delivered this week and so has a very nice selection to buy from.

A Camaro or Mustang start around $30,000 and the Mustang has had shrinking sales and the Camaro is being killed off since sales are drying up.  A Hyundai Ionic 6 AWD is $49,000.  A coupe with a lower value body will cost more, easily over $50k for a 320 hp coupe, thus about $20k more than a 320 hp Mustang, $12,500 more than a Mustang if they can build it in the USA with an American sourced battery which is a big IF.  

Lets look at Hyundai EV sales this year in Q1:

The Ioniq 5 is basically down the same amount of Ioniq 6 sales, combined they are looking at about 36k units at this pace, lets say they get an end of the year boost and gets them to 40k units.  For a small crossover and mid-size sedan, 2 of the most popular body styles in the market.  Coupes sell at maybe 5% the volume small crossover sells, the Hyundai Pony Coupe would be about a 2-3,000 unit per year car in the USA, and that would probably be it's best market.  

Somewhat related note, Mustang Mach-E ales were down over 40% in May.  These guys can't match Tesla, Hyundai and Ford are losing money on these cars and they are about $10k over priced of where they should be to get people to actually buy them.  The losses would be staggering if they priced them where they need to be to get any volume.

[G. David Felt]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A Camaro or Mustang start around $30,000 and the Mustang has had shrinking sales and the Camaro is being killed off since sales are drying up.  A Hyundai Ionic 6 AWD is $49,000.  A coupe with a lower value body will cost more, easily over $50k for a 320 hp coupe, thus about $20k more than a 320 hp Mustang, $12,500 more than a Mustang if they can build it in the USA with an American sourced battery which is a big IF.  

Lets look at Hyundai EV sales this year in Q1:

The Ioniq 5 is basically down the same amount of Ioniq 6 sales, combined they are looking at about 36k units at this pace, lets say they get an end of the year boost and gets them to 40k units.  For a small crossover and mid-size sedan, 2 of the most popular body styles in the market.  Coupes sell at maybe 5% the volume small crossover sells, the Hyundai Pony Coupe would be about a 2-3,000 unit per year car in the USA, and that would probably be it's best market.  

Somewhat related note, Mustang Mach-E ales were down over 40% in May.  These guys can't match Tesla, Hyundai and Ford are losing money on these cars and they are about $10k over priced of where they should be to get people to actually buy them.  The losses would be staggering if they priced them where they need to be to get any volume.

You continue to INGORE FACTS!!!

How many times do I have to point out that Hyundai is moving all EV production to the U.S. to take advantage of the IRA tax breaks!

As such they even stated that sales would fall down before going up due to the time to ramp production of U.S. built auto's. Those numbers you post mean NOTHING to the informed person of shifting production.

COMMON SENSE, people who want the EV will buy it no matter where it is produced, but for those that want the tax break from the IRA deal, they will buy only U.S. produced EVs.

To QUOTE YOU, to get volume. Hyundai did this with crappy product at the start, 10 year warranties that are still here but now with far better quality and they have no problem taking market share from everyone even with losses. Hyundai/Kia/Genesis is a force you are greatly underestimating. 

I stick with the facts that as EV production ramps up in the U.S. Hyundai, KIA and Genesis will see strong sales and a Pony car will appeal to buyers at both the high end for ultimate performance, a Tesla Plaid Competitor as well as entry and mid level.

@oldshurst442 is a perfect buyer for this as he has stated while his wife will drive an SUV, he hates them and only wants a car, so be it from a Korea, European, Japanese or U.S. name plate, he will wait till he find the EV car he likes.

It could be this Pony Car or the possible Malibu replacement I also stated above, there is a market for all formats of EVs.

[smk4565]

$5,000 cash back now on Ioniq 6, since they can't sell these things.  

Hyundai/Kia have had a great 10 year run and it could all crash and burn since they want to charge above Cadillac prices for Hyundais and no one is buying.  I don't care if it is an an EV, the Ioniq 6 costs more than a Cadillac CT5 and that isn't a price range Hyundai buyers shop in.

[surreal1272]

52 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

$5,000 cash back now on Ioniq 6, since they can't sell these things.  

Hyundai/Kia have had a great 10 year run and it could all crash and burn since they want to charge above Cadillac prices for Hyundais and no one is buying.  I don't care if it is an an EV, the Ioniq 6 costs more than a Cadillac CT5 and that isn't a price range Hyundai buyers shop in.

Ho many times do people have to tell you why Hyundais numbers are the way they are right now? You've been told repeatedly here so I'm not going over that with you because clearly you just ignore $h! when it's convenient to you.

 

Having said that...

 

What's your favorite brands excuse for the $7500 bonus offer on select leased EQs?

 

 

Maybe you should just sit this one out for once SMK.

[smk4565]

26 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Ho many times do people have to tell you why Hyundais numbers are the way they are right now? You've been told repeatedly here so I'm not going over that with you because clearly you just ignore $h! when it's convenient to you.

 

Having said that...

 

What's your favorite brands excuse for the $7500 bonus offer on select leased EQs?

 

 

Maybe you should just sit this one out for once SMK.

That Mercedes is $7500 over priced too.  I wonder if the $7500 lease deal is because they can get the federal EV credit on EV's they make in Alabama .  But the EQE is easily $5-10k overpriced, depending on the trim level.  Especially compared to the 2024 E-class that looks better, and has a better interior and is cheaper.  

[surreal1272]

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That Mercedes is $7500 over priced too.  I wonder if the $7500 lease deal is because they can get the federal EV credit on EV's they make in Alabama .  But the EQE is easily $5-10k overpriced, depending on the trim level.  Especially compared to the 2024 E-class that looks better, and has a better interior and is cheaper.  

That hasn't been what you have said whenever their sale figures came up so just drop that current excuse because I am bot playing the bar moving game with you. Point being, everyone is pulling that in one fashion or another because new inventories are up everywhere, as it has been pointed out to you MULTIPLE TIMES here. Stop posting like you have completely forgotten those facts.

 

And this is why I don't post much here anymore. The wash, rinse, repeat bull$h! you post while ignoring everything else that runs counter to your BS. 

[smk4565]

37 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

That hasn't been what you have said whenever their sale figures came up so just drop that current excuse because I am bot playing the bar moving game with you. Point being, everyone is pulling that in one fashion or another because new inventories are up everywhere, as it has been pointed out to you MULTIPLE TIMES here. Stop posting like you have completely forgotten those facts.

 

And this is why I don't post much here anymore. The wash, rinse, repeat bull$h! you post while ignoring everything else that runs counter to your BS. 

The EQE sedan sold 1300 units in Q1 (more than the Ioniq 6 I might add) and the E-class sold 3000 down from 4,700 the year before.  So obviously the EQE took some E-class volumes, the E-class is also in it’s 7th and final model year for this generation so it is expected that sales will trail off and people will wait for the new one in the fall.

But at a time when people are craving EV’s and Tesla has 52% sales increase so far this year, the EQE isn’t doing any big numbers.  Because as I said the E-class is a much better value.  Drop the EQE price $7500 then it would have the same value as an E-class, just not look as good.

Thankfully for Mercedes, Tesla isn’t coming for the luxury market, they are coming for the mainstream players.

According to Cox Automotive, Mercedes ATP in May was up 22% from last year to $82,000.  So I will be interested to see if they can maintain volume at that price level.

Ford and Toytota prices are up about 10% this year, Tesla ATP is down 13% plus tax credits.  As Tesla keeps lowering prices and these other bozos keep pricing consumers out, Tesla is going to take over.

[G. David Felt]

23 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But at a time when people are craving EV’s and Tesla has 52% sales increase so far this year,

Thankfully for Mercedes, Tesla isn’t coming for the luxury market, they are coming for the mainstream players.

 

We will ignore how many times I have told you that Hyundai, Kia and Genesis are all moving production here and expect numbers to go down as the current EVs on the dealer lots do not quality for the rebate except for the GV60 for Genesis.

Are you sure about that Tesla number as every source I have checked says the same 44% yoy figure.

Tesla Production And Deliveries Graphed Through Q1 2023: More Records (insideevs.com)

On top of this they barely squeaked out a gain over Q4 2022 and when you take actual production, not shipped to stores they are Negative for Q1 2023 versus Q4 2022, but up 44% over Q1 2022.  Numbers will be fluent based on global economic figures.

I would double check that source where you say Tesla is not going after Mercedes. Musk has stated that the new S & X that are coming will beat all luxury makers. So I would say watch your bake Mercedes.

[smk4565]

22 hours ago, David said:

We will ignore how many times I have told you that Hyundai, Kia and Genesis are all moving production here and expect numbers to go down as the current EVs on the dealer lots do not quality for the rebate except for the GV60 for Genesis.

Are you sure about that Tesla number as every source I have checked says the same 44% yoy figure.

Tesla Production And Deliveries Graphed Through Q1 2023: More Records (insideevs.com)

On top of this they barely squeaked out a gain over Q4 2022 and when you take actual production, not shipped to stores they are Negative for Q1 2023 versus Q4 2022, but up 44% over Q1 2022.  Numbers will be fluent based on global economic figures.

I would double check that source where you say Tesla is not going after Mercedes. Musk has stated that the new S & X that are coming will beat all luxury makers. So I would say watch your bake Mercedes.

Tesla was up 44% in Q1, but if you add April they are up 52% compared to January - April in 2022.  Here is the Jalopnik article form last week, and take note Model Y up 99% in April.  And Q1 is typically the worse sales quarter while Q4 is the best quarter, so for Tessa to increase over a record Q4 in 2022 to Q1 2023 is still strong.

Also Tesla is not targeting the luxury market, Mercedes ATP up 22% in April compared to last year, Tesla down 13.6%.  This is the chart that should terrify legacy auto, all of them are raising prices (and Mecedes and Land Rover customer base can afford it) while Tesla is lowering prices.  And Tesla hasn't even put out their lower priced car yet which is going to hit companies like Toyota, Hyundai, Honda and GM the hardest. 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Also Tesla is not targeting the luxury market

I'm just going to leave these right here for you to see how 100% full of $h! you are to say they don't compete in the luxury market.

 

 

 

Courtesy of Two different Benz dealerships. Might want to tell them Tesla doesn't compete in the luxury market.

 

The lesson here is stop repeating the same old BS you keep posting day in and day out. FFS.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I'm just going to leave these right here for you to see how 100% full of $h! you are to say they don't compete in the luxury market.

 

 

 

Courtesy of Two different Benz dealerships. Might want to tell them Tesla doesn't compete in the luxury market.

 

The lesson here is stop repeating the same old BS you keep posting day in and day out. FFS.

I get that the Model X and S are expensive luxury cars, but that isn't Tesla's focus or where they are going.

Look at their sales for Q1

2.5% of their delivers are S/X and which are their German luxury brand competitor vehicles.  Tesla had to start high priced with the early adopters, that is over, now they are going after mass market.  The next Gen Tesla is going to be at least double the volume of Model Y, maybe 4X Model Y volume.  Tesla's goal is 20 million units per year, that volume isn't coming at the expense of Mercedes or BMW, it is coming at the expense of Honda, Toyota, GM, VW, Ford, Stellantis, Hyundai and Renault/Nissan.   The question is who loses 10-15% of their sales and who loses 50% and goes under. 

[surreal1272]

@smk4565 You are just too predictable. Now, go ahead and deflect from this other comparison (from yet another Benz dealer) involving Teslas best seller and the EQB. But hey, there not going after the luxury market right?

https://www.sbmercedes.com/eqb-vs-tesla-model-y.htm

 

Tesla is Mercedes. They compete in the luxury and mainstream market, end of discussion and no amount of your bar moving and fanboy nonsense changes that. 

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565 You are just too predictable. Now, go ahead and deflect from this other comparison (from yet another Benz dealer) involving Teslas best seller and the EQB. But hey, there not going after the luxury market right?

https://www.sbmercedes.com/eqb-vs-tesla-model-y.htm

 

Tesla is Mercedes. They compete in the luxury and mainstream market, end of discussion and no amount of your bar moving and fanboy nonsense changes that. 

Mercedes is probably comparing their EV’s to Tesla because Tesla is what people know.  The EQB vs Model Y comparison is a horrible one for Mercedes, not sure why they would even make it.   The EQB is another EV that needs a $5-10,000 price cut plus it isn’t eligible for the tax credit.  Model Y all day long over the EQB. 
 

Mercedes doesn’t compete in the mainstream, their ATP in April was over $82,000.  I don’t see many mainstream middle class buyers spending that.

Sure Tesla competes over a wide price range now but the future is for them sub $30,000 for the next big growth.

And the Tesla Model Y is the #2 selling vehicle in the US for the first 4 months of the year.  Only the F150 outsells it now, and heck with Cybertruck taking pick up market share next year, Model Y could be #1 selling vehicle in the US in 2024, which seems pretty mainstream to me.

[G. David Felt]

19 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla was up 44% in Q1, but if you add April they are up 52% compared to January - April in 2022.  Here is the Jalopnik article form last week, and take note Model Y up 99% in April.  And Q1 is typically the worse sales quarter while Q4 is the best quarter, so for Tessa to increase over a record Q4 in 2022 to Q1 2023 is still strong.

First off, Tesla reports quarterly so that registration figure is not accurate due to one big issue, Tesla Loaners. They have had to increase loaners and that requires registration of vehicles that they will later sell as demo vehicles. Registration does not clarify how many are private ownership and company ownership. 10 to 20% of those registrations could be for Tesla Loaners for all we know.

Per Tesla own website: “loaners are give for warrantable repairs estimated to take longer than 24 hours”.

[G. David Felt]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is probably comparing their EV’s to Tesla because Tesla is what people know.  The EQB vs Model Y comparison is a horrible one for Mercedes, not sure why they would even make it.   The EQB is another EV that needs a $5-10,000 price cut plus it isn’t eligible for the tax credit.  Model Y all day long over the EQB. 
 

Mercedes doesn’t compete in the mainstream, their ATP in April was over $82,000.  I don’t see many mainstream middle class buyers spending that.

Sure Tesla competes over a wide price range now but the future is for them sub $30,000 for the next big growth.

And the Tesla Model Y is the #2 selling vehicle in the US for the first 4 months of the year.  Only the F150 outsells it now, and heck with Cybertruck taking pick up market share next year, Model Y could be #1 selling vehicle in the US in 2024, which seems pretty mainstream to me.

First, what actual proof are you quoting for the ATP of $82,000 for Mercedes?

First of all I will point out that Mercedes is falling behind, for the second year in a row, BMW is outselling Mercedes.

BMW Outsells Rival Mercedes-Benz for Second Straight Year - Bloomberg

BMW and Mercedes needs to wake up to their bloated overrated ego of Luxury as Cadillac CT4 alone is eating their market share.

Cadillac CT4 Sales Outpace Mercedes And BMW In Q1 2023 (gmauthority.com)

Here is a comparison of Mercedes to Cadillac in the EV segment and the ATP is below MSRP for Mercedes.

Compare 2023 Mercedes-Benz EQB vs. 2024 Cadillac Lyriq | U.S. News (usnews.com)

Then you look at the Lyriq versus EQS and the reviews have the Mercedes far below Cadillac.

Compare 2023 Cadillac Lyriq vs Mercedes-Benz EQS SUV | CarBuzz

Tesla has nothing in the Sub $30,000 range and all of Musk saying they will have one is Vaporware. Tesla is and continues to be late on delivering new products let alone updates.

Yes you are correct that Tesla Model Y is the #2 selling SUV in the U.S. for the first 4 months of this year. Wait till GM has their EVs out and Hyundai, Kia, Genesis ramp up U.S. production as well as Ford gets their additional EVs out. As more and more choice comes out, it is logical to expect Tesla to fall. Their quality issues continue and people who have moved over to other EVs has stated that other than the Supercharging network, there is no reason to go back to Tesla for an EV.

Cybertruck WILL NOT be taking market share next year as the truck will be sold from the high end to new truck buyers, aka Tesla Faithfull. With Ford and GM having their trucks out at a lower price point, it is very doubtful that Tesla will have any truck to compete with them.

[surreal1272]

24 minutes ago, David said:

First, what actual proof are you quoting for the ATP of $82,000 for Mercedes?

He fails to see that the ATP does not mean $h!. The bulk of Benz sales are from their models like the A class, CLA, GLC, GLA, etc, which DO compete against the mainstream models out there. This isn't "opinion". This is "fact". It's why Mercedes started selling lower priced models 20 years ago (C230 anyone?). High line priced cars alone would not keep them in business and SMK knows that but that fanboy logic won't let him admit it. He fails, as well, to see the bigger point and that is the Tesla DOES compete in the luxury market as well as the mainstream, despite his BS claims to the contrary. 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

He fails to see that the ATP does not mean $h!. The bulk of Benz sales are from their models like the A class, CLA, GLC, GLA, etc, which DO compete against the mainstream models out there. This isn't "opinion". This is "fact". It's why Mercedes started selling lower priced models 20 years ago (C230 anyone?). High line priced cars alone would not keep them in business and SMK knows that but that fanboy logic won't let him admit it. He fails, as well, to see the bigger point and that is the Tesla DOES compete in the luxury market as well as the mainstream, despite his BS claims to the contrary. 

Tesla Fanboy logic is not just here @ C&G, it is crazy funny to read all the comments posted on this one about Tesla Semi Truck.

Tesla Semi recall suggests production is still slow | Electrek

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

First, what actual proof are you quoting for the ATP of $82,000 for Mercedes?

First of all I will point out that Mercedes is falling behind, for the second year in a row, BMW is outselling Mercedes.

BMW Outsells Rival Mercedes-Benz for Second Straight Year - Bloomberg

BMW and Mercedes needs to wake up to their bloated overrated ego of Luxury as Cadillac CT4 alone is eating their market share.

Cadillac CT4 Sales Outpace Mercedes And BMW In Q1 2023 (gmauthority.com)

Here is a comparison of Mercedes to Cadillac in the EV segment and the ATP is below MSRP for Mercedes.

Compare 2023 Mercedes-Benz EQB vs. 2024 Cadillac Lyriq | U.S. News (usnews.com)

Then you look at the Lyriq versus EQS and the reviews have the Mercedes far below Cadillac.

Compare 2023 Cadillac Lyriq vs Mercedes-Benz EQS SUV | CarBuzz

Tesla has nothing in the Sub $30,000 range and all of Musk saying they will have one is Vaporware. Tesla is and continues to be late on delivering new products let alone updates.

Yes you are correct that Tesla Model Y is the #2 selling SUV in the U.S. for the first 4 months of this year. Wait till GM has their EVs out and Hyundai, Kia, Genesis ramp up U.S. production as well as Ford gets their additional EVs out. As more and more choice comes out, it is logical to expect Tesla to fall. Their quality issues continue and people who have moved over to other EVs has stated that other than the Supercharging network, there is no reason to go back to Tesla for an EV.

Cybertruck WILL NOT be taking market share next year as the truck will be sold from the high end to new truck buyers, aka Tesla Faithfull. With Ford and GM having their trucks out at a lower price point, it is very doubtful that Tesla will have any truck to compete with them.

They was watching a CarEdge YouTube video, they had the Cox Automotive Data for last month, ATP at JLR is $107,000 (probably since they killed off half the Jaguars and are just selling Range Rovers) and Mercedes was just over $82,000.  Which makes sense the EQE and EQS are transacting over $80k and you have SL and G-wagon over $150k and the A-class is gone.  
 

Good on the CT4, but the C-class or 3-series easily outsells the CT5 and Cadillac has no E-class competitor, I guess the Celestiq could loosely be S-class competition.

Lyriq’s competitor would be the EQE SUV since they are mid-size 2 row SUVs.  Either more luxurious than a Tesla Y, but maybe they are more Model X competitors with less performance.  
 

Model Y isn’t the #2 selling SUV, it is the number 2 selling vehicle based on estimates.  With the sales increases they are seeing it could beat the Silverado this year.  It easily outsells the RAV4, best selling SUV competition is done and over.  And GM or Hyundai won’t change that.  
 

And how would GM or Hyundai or anyone else change it?  They lose money on EV’s so they can’t match Tesla’s price, they aren’t vertically integrated so they can’t match Tesla’s price.  Their dealer network adds cost so they can’t match Tesla’s price.  

[surreal1272]

For the very last time @smk4565, ANY brand that has multiple FWD models is playing in THAT PART of the mainstream market and no amount of bar moving BS about ever changing ATPs changes that. You have been told this by multiple folks so stop acting like you don't know the truth here.