Dodge News: Dodge Last Call of the Charger/Challenger 2023 product line revealed!

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You can't ACTUALLY believe they'll be selling 50k trucks though, right? 

Just the mass/size alone and a stainless steel body will bring their costs well above a Model 3. A Model 3 with AWD starts at 53k. 

I just cannot fathom how this could be priced in the 50k price range. Maybe their complete base model(that likely will only be on sale for a few months, like the 35k Model 3) will be shown for 50k. But, everybody and their brother knows this thing will not be a 50k truck once you add AWD (because it's a truck and I'd wager 90% of orders will be AWD) and a battery to go 300 miles or more. 

"At the event in Los Angeles, Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced that the new Cybertruck will start at $39,900 before incentives, but there will be two more AWD variations that will start at $49,900 and $69,900 respectively." 

That's a quote from who knows how long ago but it was supposed to be on sale in 2021, then 2022. It's 2023. It's supposed to start production this year...but we'll have to see what ACTUALLY happens here.  

They could do rwd base at $50k, awd at $60k is what I am thinking.  Tesla has a more efficient manufacturing process with newer plants than the legacy OEM’s.  That is where Tesla is winning.  They also vertically integrate, rather than buying everything from suppliers who have a mark up, then sell to a dealer that has a mark up.

[G. David Felt]

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They could do rwd base at $50k, awd at $60k is what I am thinking.  Tesla has a more efficient manufacturing process with newer plants than the legacy OEM’s.  That is where Tesla is winning.  They also vertically integrate, rather than buying everything from suppliers who have a mark up, then sell to a dealer that has a mark up.

If they were so efficient, they would not have so much manual labor installing stuff or have tents in their fremont parking lot to build the Tesla 3. 

Yes they have a couple Mega presses, but that is on the Tesla Y and they still have not improved assembly of the S, X, 3 or Y. There is a reason their fit n finish suck.

No Tesla will not be able to do a 50K RWD truck without loss or an AWD truck @ $60K without a loss. Musk knows this and already they have downsized the truck and have stated they will start with top end AWD trucks, $100,000 plus first. They are still a solid year away from full production if they are on track to start production at the end of this year. If they still have these 1.5 million reservations, it will take years to produce and get caught up. 

MUSK LIES, LIES LIES, he will not produce cheap trucks, he has too many other projects that he needs money for and as proven with the canceled $35K Tesla 3 that almost never happened except for a few he had to build due to lawsuits, I doubt we will see what you are talking about.

[surreal1272]

38 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla has a more efficient manufacturing process with newer plants than the legacy OEM’s.  That is where Tesla is winning.

Is that why the three years delayed Cybertruck has been such a sales hit?

 

And let's not forget that legendary Tesla reliability and build quality because, you know, efficiency.

 

Yeah, so much winning lol.

Edited March 23, 2023 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

17 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

I get that.  There is a place for everything.   
I saw a pic of a dark green CT5-v recently.  Love the muscle car in a tuxedo sport sedan style.  

Thanx to @David, I now know what colour that is.  And it is a stunner.  I like too!!! 

Agreed on all accounts!

17 hours ago, David said:

I am surprised that Cadillac does not offer it on the LYRIQ.

That shade of green would be great on an Escalade and the Lyriq. I agree.

[G. David Felt]

11 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Thanx to @David, I now know what colour that is.  And it is a stunner.  I like too!!! 

Agreed on all accounts!

That shade of green would be great on an Escalade and the Lyriq. I agree.

Not the same color, but they did add a Green Mist color to the 2023 Escalade ESV-V edition.

LOL, @Robert Hall @oldshurst442 WOW, talk about it and GM has now updated their Cadillac web site for 2024 models and we have green colors, not the same as the CT-5 V edition, but here is the Emerald Lake Metallic on the Lyriq with their Slate Interior.

[oldshurst442]

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

For some reason, I just don't give a sht about this car. EVs, 911 Turbos and such cars have made me care less about insane quarter mile times. Cars that can make insane passes AND do other things are cool but, this doesn't do anything for me. 

For a one-trick pony, I'm sure one could get this performance with a GT500 with slicks, a pulley, and a tune and it can also take corners and stop. Probably damn close with a ZL1, as well. Heck, probably a Hellcat Redeye, too. 

Yeah, yeah yeah, modded VS stock... but this is one very expensive one-trick pony. 

You are talking about the Challenger, right?  

There are so many cars mentioned above your post, Ive lost focus.

 

I view the Challenger (Hellcat for me as its my favorite trim), not as a quarter mile queen, but as a top dog muscle car, and muscle cars is what I like mostly, and I also equate muscle cars as comfortable cruisers big enough to haul family stuff that make nice V8 sounds and go like stink when pressing on the 'go' pedal.   

A Mustang or Camaro or a Trans Am, which would be muscle cars too, but smaller ones in the pony car class, are too small for my tastes.  A Challenger was and is a tad smaller than the mid size muscle car segment, but a tad bigger than the pony  car segment.   And since TRUE midsized and full sized muscle cars dont exist anymore, then the Challenger is the one that I drool over all else in the muscle car segment today.   

I love a Mustang and Camaro too.  However, there exists 2 cars that are not really in THE muscle car class, mainly because of price, luxury.   These 2 cars are mainly marketed in the LUXURY class and these 2 cars is what I really really like in 2023 besides a Challenger Hellcat.   

Yes...its a BMW.   

 

I would have preferred if the Cadillac was toned down in luxury a tad and marketed and sold as an Oldsmobile.  Although I love a Cadillac, Im not a Cadillac type of guy.  A Cadillac type of guy is like a 1%er.  Im not that.  Im a well educated, hard working blue collar type of guy that has done well financially for myself.  And Oldsmobile fits THAT bill for me.   

And alas, Im not a prick either, so a BMW is a no go as well...  

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, David said:

If they were so efficient, they would not have so much manual labor installing stuff or have tents in their fremont parking lot to build the Tesla 3. 

Yes they have a couple Mega presses, but that is on the Tesla Y and they still have not improved assembly of the S, X, 3 or Y. There is a reason their fit n finish suck.

No Tesla will not be able to do a 50K RWD truck without loss or an AWD truck @ $60K without a loss. Musk knows this and already they have downsized the truck and have stated they will start with top end AWD trucks, $100,000 plus first. They are still a solid year away from full production if they are on track to start production at the end of this year. If they still have these 1.5 million reservations, it will take years to produce and get caught up. 

MUSK LIES, LIES LIES, he will not produce cheap trucks, he has too many other projects that he needs money for and as proven with the canceled $35K Tesla 3 that almost never happened except for a few he had to build due to lawsuits, I doubt we will see what you are talking about.

Betting against Tesla = bad idea.

[smk4565]

Back to the Challenger, I get that they are making like 3000 of these, so it is a really limited market, but for $100k plus you could get a Corvette, maybe low end 911 or M5, Tesla Model S, etc.  There are lots of fast cars, and if not a drag strip that Challenger 0-60 won't be that good, it won't hook the power up in the real world.

But if you do go to the drag strip, and like the one trick, it is a good trick.

[oldshurst442]

55 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Betting against Tesla = bad idea.

You do know that Tesla is pushing their luck, right?

NHTSA is investigating Tesla for their autopilot baffoonery and fraud and if they DO find Tesla's autopilot AS fraud, then Tesla will more than likely be charged and found guilty of criminal negligence. And THAT is something no OTHER producer of cars has EVER faced.   And THAT is saying  a lot from all the shyte this industry has shat upon people 100 plus years ago... 

Some investors are suing Musk for involving Tesla with his Twitter purchase.  THAT whole mess doesnt look good for Musk and consequently Tesla.

And...between that Twitter thing and Musk's over-promising and under-delivering on many Tesla things,  investors have startedto lose faith in Tesla slowly slowly. 

The longer Musk sits as CHIEF executive officer at Tesla, the more investors lose confidence in Tesla day by day ESPECIALLY when he opens up his shytty mouth....

Profits and billions of are one thing...but in the CAR making business many many MANY billiions are needed CONTINUOUSLY and if Tesla doesnt have the trust from investors or banks sometime in the near future...and its a very very real possibility...then they cant finance NEW models.  And as you know...new models and the next star car is what keeps a car company alive...   GM, Toyota and VAG have NO problems with that.  And... All of those 3 companies at one time had lost trust from bankers and investors...and GM had to restructure through a bankruptcy...unfortunately for Tesla, Tesla is not as big as GM and therefore restructuring wont be a thing for them...   Meaning...bye bye Tesla.  And Tesla wont BE the first car company to go under to never return.   

[G. David Felt]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Betting against Tesla = bad idea.

Not betting against Tesla, just stating they are not as great a company as you and the Tesla Rabid Fan followers make it out to be.

I believe the other OEMs are going to catch up and Tesla will be a hurting company. Already, sales have slowed down and their only way to keep momentum is to cut prices on a long in the tooth style from a political polarizing CEO. A man who has forgotten he works for the shareholders not himself.

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

You do know that Tesla is pushing their luck, right?

NHTSA is investigating Tesla for their autopilot baffoonery and fraud and if they DO find Tesla's autopilot AS fraud, then Tesla will more than likely be charged and found guilty of criminal negligence. And THAT is something no OTHER producer of cars has EVER faced.   And THAT is saying  a lot from all the shyte this industry has shat upon people 100 plus years ago... 

Some investors are suing Musk for involving Tesla with his Twitter purchase.  THAT whole mess doesnt look good for Musk and consequently Tesla.

And...between that Twitter thing and Musk's over-promising and under-delivering on many Tesla things,  investors have startedto lose faith in Tesla slowly slowly. 

The longer Musk sits as CHIEF executive officer at Tesla, the more investors lose confidence in Tesla day by day ESPECIALLY when he opens up his shytty mouth....

Profits and billions of are one thing...but in the CAR making business many many MANY billiions are needed CONTINUOUSLY and if Tesla doesnt have the trust from investors or banks sometime in the near future...and its a very very real possibility...then they cant finance NEW models.  And as you know...new models and the next star car is what keeps a car company alive...   GM, Toyota and VAG have NO problems with that.  And... All of those 3 companies at one time had lost trust from bankers and investors...and GM had to restructure through a bankruptcy...unfortunately for Tesla, Tesla is not as big as GM and therefore restructuring wont be a thing for them...   Meaning...bye bye Tesla.  And Tesla wont BE the first car company to go under to never return.   

Right Now Kia and Hyundai are building better EVs according to the media than Tesla and buyers are listening. His political push of his world is also turning off people who do not want to be associated with Tesla CEO and as such are dumping their Tesla and going Mach-e, EV6, Ioniq 6 and now we have solid reviews on Genesis GV60 EV.

Tesla's Days as king are numbered and you hit all the correct points about what Tesla is facing on top of the sexual harassment lawsuits against Musk and the Company. The HR department and Legal have their hands full. The next 24 months could really make a difference for Tesla.

[smk4565]

34 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Profits and billions of are one thing...but in the CAR making business many many MANY billiions are needed CONTINUOUSLY and if Tesla doesnt have the trust from investors or banks sometime in the near future...and its a very very real possibility...then they cant finance NEW models.  And as you know...new models and the next star car is what keeps a car company alive...   GM, Toyota and VAG have NO problems with that.  And... All of those 3 companies at one time had lost trust from bankers and investors...and GM had to restructure through a bankruptcy...unfortunately for Tesla, Tesla is not as big as GM and therefore restructuring wont be a thing for them...   Meaning...bye bye Tesla.  And Tesla wont BE the first car company to go under to never return.   

Tesla is 12 times more valuable than GM, and Tesla made more profit than GM last year, despite having half the revenue.   GM's cash on hand is $3 billion more than Tesla's but GM has way more overhead to cover.  We are about 5 years away from Tesla outselling Ford and GM globally, about 10 years from Tesla outselling VAG and Toyota, and that could be less if Toyota is slow to EV's which they seem to be.

[Drew Dowdell]

11 hours ago, ccap41 said:

It's in the Grand Wagoneer already, maybe the Wagoneer, as well. 

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-jeep-wagoneer-l-hurricane-i-6-first-test-review/

 

I got a really short drive in one in a Grand Wagoneer. It's smooth with gobs of low-end torque.  You don't miss the very nice 6.4 eTorque at all.

[smk4565]

44 minutes ago, David said:

Not betting against Tesla, just stating they are not as great a company as you and the Tesla Rabid Fan followers make it out to be.

I believe the other OEMs are going to catch up and Tesla will be a hurting company. Already, sales have slowed down and their only way to keep momentum is to cut prices on a long in the tooth style form a political polarizing CEO. A man who has forgotten he works for the shareholders not himself.

Right Now Kia and Hyundai are building better EVs according to the media than Tesla and buyers are listening. His political push of his world is also turning off people who do not want to be associated with Tesla CEO and as such are dumping their Tesla and going Mach-e, EV6, Ioniq 6 and now we have solid reviews on Genesis GV60 EV.

Tesla's Days as king are numbered and you hit all the correct points about what Tesla is facing on top of the sexual harassment lawsuits against Musk and the Company. The HR department and Legal have their hands full. The next 24 months could really make a difference for Tesla.

Catch up when?  Ford said they expect to be at 10% margin on EV's in 2026, Tesla was at 20% margin in 2022.  

Tesla sales are up an estimated 39% YTD in the USA, 46% in China, they are that fastest growing car maker, up 44% last year in a down market, going to be up over 40% this year.   The Model Y is the number 4 selling vehicle in the country, on pace for over 400,000 units this year.  Mach-E, Hyundai/Kia can't scale at that level and even if they could, I don't think there are 400,000 people that want to buy a $50,000 Hyundai Ionic, or any Hyundai at any price because they never had a car sell that volume.  

And keep in mind, Chevrolet has 11 vehicles with base price under $40k, Ford has 10, Toyota has 13, Hyundai has 8, and that isn't counting the hybrid version or coupe and convertible as 2 models.  That is where those brands do a ton of business.  Tesla has zero cars under $40k.  Once they hit the price point that the masses can afford their sales probably double or triple.  

14 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I got a really short drive in one in a Grand Wagoneer. It's smooth with gobs of low-end torque.  You don't miss the very nice 6.4 eTorque at all.

And there is a 500 hp version of the inline six.  They could drop that in the Challenger/Charger/300 for an SRT model and it would likely be faster than the 6.4 V8's.  Assuming they want to spend the money to engineer it to fit in the car, certify emissions, etc.  Not sure if they want to spend any money on a 18 year old platform car at this point, when they can fleet sale Pentastar V6 LH cars a couple more years just to have something to sell.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is 12 times more valuable than GM

No they are not.

When...all these things I mentioned will boil over and it turns out to be negative for Tesla...their stock value will lower considerably.  It already has gone down considerably.  Dont also forget that Tesla's value is more based on speculation on what shyte comes out of Musk's mouth.  

His over-promises has skyrocketed Tesla's value.

But his under-delivery has also made Tesla's value drop like no other in history too.  

Tesla value dropped soooo much in January.  And investor's have made it clear that they dont accept Musk bullshyte no longer.  It remains to be seen what Tesla stock value will be by Dec. 2023...

Jan 2023

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/06/1146941980/tesla-shares-elon-musk-twitter-electric-cars

 

Dec. 2022

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-07/tesla-tsla-stock-slump-investors-frustrated-by-elon-musk-twitter-distraction#xj4y7vzkg

 

Like I said...Tesla's luck and charm WILL run out.   Just a matter of time if Musk doesnt fix himself and his company that he chiefs over.  

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla made more profit than GM last year

Means nothing.  Like I said...in the car making business...it takes CONTINUAL amounts of billions.  And it takes investors and loans to finance NEW models.  It takes business plans to secure loans and investments from investors.  And it takes prrof that you have cars in demand.

Tesla cars are SLIDING in demand.

Tesla had to resort to OLD DETROIT ways of doing business.  And that is to slash prices.  

In China...all that did was make its competitors to do the same.  Dude...LEGACY automakers have been down that road many many MANY times in THEIR 100 plus year history.  Nothing new to GM, VAG or Ford.  Toyota has never had to do something THAT drastic, but Toyota knows how to deal with that kind of thing.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/25/23571618/tesla-q4-2022-earnings-revenue-profit-prices-demand

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

GM's cash on hand is $3 billion more than Tesla's but GM has way more overhead to cover.

GM has had 100 plus years of business.  Banks and investors KNOW when to trust GM and when NOT to.   Investors are finding out that Musk is a blowhard used car salesman...     See how THAT turns out for Musk when Musk will need billions upon billions to get a 2nd gen Model S and Model 3 and Model Y...

24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

We are about 5 years away from Tesla outselling Ford and GM globally,

In 5 years...GM will have 30 NEW EV models to sell...   Tesla will STILL be peddling ANCIENT Model S and Model 3 and Model Y.     Ford sells 1 million F150s ALONE.   

Not. A. Chance.

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla outselling VAG and Toyota

VAG is on the verge of letting loose their OWN 30 NEW EV models to compete with...GM.  LOL.

Toyota is behind...    But BECAUSE Musk is such a bullshytting used car salesman, Toyota EV will have surpassed Tesla's in about 5 years...    Everyone thinks that Toyota lags in EV tech.  They dont.  They have the hybrid thing all figured out by far from everyone else.  They WILL figure out to do EV specific platforms.  They know about batteries and EV motors.  Not hard to catch up.   Toyota rabid fanboys are more plentiful than Tesla's, I worry not for Toyota. 

Tesla is NOT in a very good position right now.   Hyundai, GM, VAG, Toyota,  the Chinese EV brands, Stellantis, even FoMoCo after announcing they will lose 3 billion dollars this year in producing EVs look healthier in terms of stability than Tesla is...   

 

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Catch up when?  Ford said they expect to be at 10% margin on EV's in 2026, Tesla was at 20% margin in 2022.  

Tesla sales are up an estimated 39% YTD in the USA, 46% in China, they are that fastest growing car maker, up 44% last year in a down market, going to be up over 40% this year.   The Model Y is the number 4 selling vehicle in the country, on pace for over 400,000 units this year.  Mach-E, Hyundai/Kia can't scale at that level and even if they could, I don't think there are 400,000 people that want to buy a $50,000 Hyundai Ionic, or any Hyundai at any price because they never had a car sell that volume.  

And keep in mind, Chevrolet has 11 vehicles with base price under $40k, Ford has 10, Toyota has 13, Hyundai has 8, and that isn't counting the hybrid version or coupe and convertible as 2 models.  That is where those brands do a ton of business.  Tesla has zero cars under $40k.  Once they hit the price point that the masses can afford their sales probably double or triple.  

And there is a 500 hp version of the inline six.  They could drop that in the Challenger/Charger/300 for an SRT model and it would likely be faster than the 6.4 V8's.  Assuming they want to spend the money to engineer it to fit in the car, certify emissions, etc.  Not sure if they want to spend any money on a 18 year old platform car at this point, when they can fleet sale Pentastar V6 LH cars a couple more years just to have something to sell.

Oh FFS. How many times are you going to beat this horse to death, Market valuations and the house of cards that is Tesla profit margin has been explained to you time and time again yet you come back two months later with the same debunked BS. Just stop it already.

 

I'm assuming that you can read a basic graph.

 

 

I would that losing over HALF of your market cap is the opposite of a good sign for Tesla but keep cherry picking that data to prop them top, for whatever reason. Ignore all the facts that show the dangers for Tesla. You haven't convinced anyone here of ti yet but hey, it clearly hasn't stopped you from beating that dead horse for the last three years now, much like your Cybertruck talk.

 

Oh and...

 

Now, maybe we can go back to the subject at hand, which is the Challenger Demon. Let's try that, shall we?

Edited March 24, 2023 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

16 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They could do rwd base at $50k, awd at $60k is what I am thinking.  Tesla has a more efficient manufacturing process with newer plants than the legacy OEM’s.  That is where Tesla is winning.  They also vertically integrate, rather than buying everything from suppliers who have a mark up, then sell to a dealer that has a mark up.

You're not wrong about their efficiency but you're saying the actual cost to Tesla has to be right around the same as the Model 3, to price it at 50k. Just with it being much larger and a stainless steel body makes me feel like it has to cost a fair amount more for Tesla to produce.

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

You are talking about the Challenger, right?  

There are so many cars mentioned above your post, Ive lost focus.

 

I view the Challenger (Hellcat for me as its my favorite trim), not as a quarter mile queen, but as a top dog muscle car, and muscle cars is what I like mostly, and I also equate muscle cars as comfortable cruisers big enough to haul family stuff that make nice V8 sounds and go like stink when pressing on the 'go' pedal.   

A Mustang or Camaro or a Trans Am, which would be muscle cars too, but smaller ones in the pony car class, are too small for my tastes.  A Challenger was and is a tad smaller than the mid size muscle car segment, but a tad bigger than the pony  car segment.   And since TRUE midsized and full sized muscle cars dont exist anymore, then the Challenger is the one that I drool over all else in the muscle car segment today.   

I love a Mustang and Camaro too.  However, there exists 2 cars that are not really in THE muscle car class, mainly because of price, luxury.   These 2 cars are mainly marketed in the LUXURY class and these 2 cars is what I really really like in 2023 besides a Challenger Hellcat.   

Yes...its a BMW.   

 

I would have preferred if the Cadillac was toned down in luxury a tad and marketed and sold as an Oldsmobile.  Although I love a Cadillac, Im not a Cadillac type of guy.  A Cadillac type of guy is like a 1%er.  Im not that.  Im a well educated, hard working blue collar type of guy that has done well financially for myself.  And Oldsmobile fits THAT bill for me.   

And alas, Im not a prick either, so a BMW is a no go as well...  

I was talking about the Challenger 170.

It isn't that I don't care about the Challenger or that I dislike it. I just don't care about this "last call" marketing crap. It's a one-trick pony in an area that I just don't really care that much about nor am impressed with anymore. 

[oldshurst442]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I was talking about the Challenger 170.

It isn't that I don't care about the Challenger or that I dislike it. I just don't care about this "last call" marketing crap. It's a one-trick pony in an area that I just don't really care that much about nor am impressed with anymore. 

Yeah. I hear ya on that.  
Im not into these Last Call editions either.  With the sole exemption of the Black Ghost.  I feel as though the Black Ghost should have been the SOLE ‘Last Call’ edition and as the legend goes: an unknown street car racer would show up from time to time at a street race, blow the doors off everyone and then disappear into the night.  The legend is a fitting last call edition to send off these cars.  But, Dodge somehow needs to milk this. 
To be fair to Dodge, there are many fans of these cars so they should milk it. 
Im not of this fanhood that needs ‘Last Call’ validation models to see them go off into the sunset. Like you, I view them as marketing bullshyte. Although the Swinger edition could have been a version Id like had I been a Boomer of a certain age in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s doin’ certain lifestyle activities to evoke that name.  But imagine sll these Boomers now, all wrinkley like raisins still engaging in that swinger lifestyle.

YUCK!!!

[oldshurst442]

Only young, pretty people should be having sex.  

[ccap41]

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yeah. I hear ya on that.  
Im not into these Last Call editions either.  With the sole exemption of the Black Ghost.  I feel as though the Black Ghost should have been the SOLE ‘Last Call’ edition and as the legend goes: an unknown street car racer would show up from time to time at a street race, blow the doors off everyone and then disappear into the night.  The legend is a fitting last call edition to send off these cars.  But, Dodge somehow needs to milk this. 
To be fair to Dodge, there are many fans of these cars so they should milk it. 
Im not of this fanhood that needs ‘Last Call’ validation models to see them go off into the sunset. Like you, I view them as marketing bullshyte. Although the Swinger edition could have been a version Id like had I been a Boomer of a certain age in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s doin’ certain lifestyle activities to evoke that name.  But imagine sll these Boomers now, all wrinkley like raisins still engaging in that swinger lifestyle.

YUCK!!!

I'd also like to add, I'd prefer my Challenger to be a "regular" Hellcat, +/- the Redeye, like you. If I really wanted a 9 second car, it could be built for a lot less and driven without worry of a depreciating asset.

I bet most of these 3000 units won't see a full tank of gas a year because collectors want an investment and know a "last call" will appreciate. They're probably correct but I'd prefer one I could drive without that worry or thought in the back of my head. 

To that idea, it kind of bums me out realizing I'm not sure if I'll ever own an 03-04 Cobra for that same reason. The prices are pretty nuts already and if I did happen to buy one, I know damn well it would be in the back of my head that if I didn't drive it, I would likely break even or make money down the road. It would probably just make more sense to build a New Edge to my liking. There's actually one on a local Facebook page for sale with a Coyote shoehorned in the engine bay.. lovely car. 

[G. David Felt]

@smk4565 Your now sounding more and more like a Tesla Fan Boy as well as a Mercedes Fan Boy. No fault, you like what you like and that is fine. Please understand, EVERY DOG HAS ITS DAY!!!

As such, Tesla started the true major move to EVs, I will not take that away. GM pissed the leadership away and I think most would agree with that assessment, but that does not mean they are out. Ford is playing catchup as are most companies and then you have Toyota, the darling of the last 3 decades pissing everything on Hydrogen even in racing. Toyota days as king are also limited.

Yes if we look at stock price we see Tesla is more valuable than GM.

Yet, a better picture is what true long term investors look at and that is the Financials.

Yes net profits are double at Tesla for the last two years, but then you have consistency from GM on Net Profits and let's look at two very important items.

Diluted Average Shares and Normalized EBITDA. Comparing the two companies, long term, GM is a far better run company than Tesla, Half the number of shares on the market with double the normalized EBITDA.

Yes, you could say that GM has lots of red negative numbers, but then GM has lots of intellectual property and as such to control paying taxes, they are better at moving around the accounting game to minimize profit taxes than Tesla it would seem.

Both companies have potential and positive as well as negative points. Tesla is King right now, but as @surreal1272 pointed out, last year alone, Tesla lost 15.4% market share in the U.S. alone and that number will continue to drop as competitors battery plants and production lines come online to build products to compete with Tesla.

Analyst has already stated that Tesla could drop to around 50% market share by the end of this year.

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In regard to the Demon 170 and the death of the Hemi V8. This comes after the Stellantis division, AKA Dodge, Ram, Jeep, Chrysler had to pay $300 Million last year for emissions cheating on their V8 Engines and Diesel.

Stellantis Unit to Pay $300 Million After Pleading Guilty in Emissions-Fraud Case - WSJ

Stellantis Parent Company decided NO MORE EMISSIONS Credit purchases to support V8, So America will get smaller engines in the short term as they ramp up EVs.

As we all seem to be in agreement on is that the Demon 170 name is understandable but lacking in what they could have done and I agree with @oldshurst442 that the Black Ghost or hell even Leprechaun Demon would have been better than Demon 170!

So many ways I think they could have done this final last call.

[smk4565]

The thing with these last call Challengers is I don’t think they will appreciate.   The Charger/Challenger are volume cars that have been around 15 years, the 10 year old V6 cars are worthless.  So I don’t see the last call going up in value over time, it isn’t like a Ferrari that was low volume.  Secondly, the baby boomers will buy this, and people under 50 could probably care less about this car so who do you sell it to in 10-15 years for profit?  And EV’s are fast in a straight line, this car’s one trick is about to be rather common.  People will pay for a 90s M3 or M5 because the weight is low. The steering feel and the stuff you can’t get anymore with electric steering and heavy cars.  

[G. David Felt]

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The thing with these last call Challengers is I don’t think they will appreciate.   The Charger/Challenger are volume cars that have been around 15 years, the 10 year old V6 cars are worthless.  So I don’t see the last call going up in value over time, it isn’t like a Ferrari that was low volume.  Secondly, the baby boomers will buy this, and people under 50 could probably care less about this car so who do you sell it to in 10-15 years for profit?  And EV’s are fast in a straight line, this car’s one trick is about to be rather common.  People will pay for a 90s M3 or M5 because the weight is low. The steering feel and the stuff you can’t get anymore with electric steering and heavy cars.  

How do you NOT see the double standard you just posted?

The Last call series is limited production, 3000 for the U.S. and 300 for Canada is very limited production with an engine that you CANNOT get in any other vehicle that we know of. 

Yes the engine will be sold as a crate solution for those that want it in their own project auto. These will sell and appreciate like any other collector cars. 

You are right that all the average Chargers/Challengers with the base Hemi V8 or V6 will not appreciate, but that does not mean that to some folks that grew up with them they will not love to have one down the road and who knows, as e-crate solutions take off, more will be converted to EV.

[ccap41]

37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The thing with these last call Challengers is I don’t think they will appreciate.   The Charger/Challenger are volume cars that have been around 15 years, the 10 year old V6 cars are worthless.  So I don’t see the last call going up in value over time, it isn’t like a Ferrari that was low volume.  Secondly, the baby boomers will buy this, and people under 50 could probably care less about this car so who do you sell it to in 10-15 years for profit?  And EV’s are fast in a straight line, this car’s one trick is about to be rather common.  People will pay for a 90s M3 or M5 because the weight is low. The steering feel and the stuff you can’t get anymore with electric steering and heavy cars.

Some of those are pretty fair points but I think the limited run of 3000 units helps its cause. 

10-15 years from now I think our generations(current 30-50 year olds) will want these still. 

[oldshurst442]

The Hellcats and Demons are practically collector cars now.

The Last Call Editions are not built yet, and yet we could sense, well...me at least...that these cars are collector cars NOW.

There are a few cars when produced, we kinda know that they will eventually become legendary and collectable.    And these very wild in name and in horsepower LX cars are one of the rare cases that we KNOW.   

I was but a teenager, 14 years old in 1987 and I KNEW the Buick GNX was a future classic.  We all knew.  

When Porsche introduced the Carrera GT to the world, we all knew that the car is going to be a classic as SOON as it rolls off the assembly line.   

And the LX cars with the outrageous names and power numbers are of that same breed.  There is no denying it.  You saw it coming as SOON as Dodge released the 1st Hellcat in 2015...  Dodge sold quite a few of these Hellcats.  In Challenger form. And in other forms too.  And it dont matter. Sometimes a collector car classic being valuable has NOTHING to do with rarity.  But in ANY case of being a valuable collector car, there must be something about the car that people think of it in the future for those people to lust after it IN the future.  And the outrageous versions of these LX cars have that something special.  Right now and IN the future.  

Nostalgia....with the LX cars...

 Its nostalgia, with the fact that these are  the LAST OUTPHOQUINGRAGEOUS internal combustion engined cars ever to be produced.   And THAT is one powerful statement to own for the future of collectability for these cars...  

 

 

[G. David Felt]

31 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Hellcats and Demons are practically collector cars now.

The Last Call Editions are not built yet, and yet we could sense, well...me at least...that these cars are collector cars NOW.

There are a few cars when produced, we kinda know that they will eventually become legendary and collectable.    And these very wild in name and in horsepower LX cars are one of the rare cases that we KNOW.   

I was but a teenager, 14 years old in 1987 and I KNEW the Buick GNX was a future classic.  We all knew.  

When Porsche introduced the Carrera GT to the world, we all knew that the car is going to be a classic as SOON as it rolls off the assembly line.   

And the LX cars with the outrageous names and power numbers are of that same breed.  There is no denying it.  You saw it coming as SOON as Dodge released the 1st Hellcat in 2015...  Dodge sold quite a few of these Hellcats.  In Challenger form. And in other forms too.  And it dont matter. Sometimes a collector car classic being valuable has NOTHING to do with rarity.  But in ANY case of being a valuable collector car, there must be something about the car that people think of it in the future for those people to lust after it IN the future.  And the outrageous versions of these LX cars have that something special.  Right now and IN the future.  

Nostalgia....with the LX cars...

 Its nostalgia, with the fact that these are  the LAST OUTPHOQUINGRAGEOUS internal combustion engined cars ever to be produced.   And THAT is one powerful statement to own for the future of collectability for these cars...  

 

 

Agree 100% along with the first few Banshee EVs will also be collector cars in comparison to the mass produced lower level Chargers/Challengers/Daytona's.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The thing with these last call Challengers is I don’t think they will appreciate.

Did you just seriously type that with a straight face?

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Did you just seriously type that with a straight face?

Used Hellcats right now are $50-85k for the most part, nothing is going to make those go up in value.  So I don’t see the last call demon selling for like $200k 20 years from now when there will be a ton of cheap hellcats and prior demons out there

All the prior CTS-V’s, Camaros, Shelby Mustangs all depreciated.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Used Hellcats right now are $50-85k for the most part, nothing is going to make those go up in value.  So I don’t see the last call demon selling for like $200k 20 years from now when there will be a ton of cheap hellcats and prior demons out there

All the prior CTS-V’s, Camaros, Shelby Mustangs all depreciated.

Good lord. Did you miss the limited production part of the Demon or do you somehow think there will be millions of them 20 years from now? It should be noted that the other cars you mentioned are all less than 20 years old too so maybe (skipping the fact that I routinely see CTS-V Wagons going for right at their original sticker with low miles), pick a spot and sitka with it because you can't have it both ways. A low mile limited production Demon will fetch above original price 20 years from now.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Used Hellcats right now are $50-85k

They start at $69K and the Redeye starts at $76K so...go ahead and explain this...

 

And this...

[G. David Felt]

@surreal1272 Common Man, your popping his conspiracy bubble of false narrative about pricing on items that are not Tesla or Mercedes AMG Fan boy crazy prices cause an American Company has built auto's that are collectors items. ?

Here is just a portion of what I found in my neck of the woods and I see no price reduction like SMK is saying.

[surreal1272]

11 hours ago, David said:

Common Man, your popping his conspiracy bubble

(Resharpens knife for next bubble popping)

 

And "YES" to the rest of your post. I am just tired of the fanboy logic being thrown out there without even a lick of simple research and data to back up said "logic". 

 

For crying out loud, go ahead and price a Chevrolet SS right now. They sold for $50K new and I routinely see those sell for that price with more than 30K miles on them. Lower mile examples go for even more. His logic is easily flushed down the toilet with a simple google search.

 

Even the Camaro ZL1 has staying power and 20 years from now, it will continue to go higher with the Camaro ceasing production and being a low production trim itself.

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

https://www.goodingco.com/lot/2018-dodge-challenger-srt-demon-1/?filtersInput[auctionType][0]=Live Auction&sortBy=ENDING_SOONEST&pageNumber=12

 

2023    |  Amelia Island Auctions 2023

2018 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon

SOLD $173,600

 

 

 

 

The list of all the cars that are for sale and sold at this auction 

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/might-coolest-estate-sale-ever-130057086.html

 

https://www.goodingco.com/lots?filtersInput[auctionType][0]=Live+Auction&amp%3BfiltersInput[auctionYear][0]=2023&amp%3BfiltersInput[liveAuctionVenue][0]=Virginia&amp%3BsortBy=ENDING_SOONEST&ref=motorious.com

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

I could honestly do this all day. 
 

 

[G. David Felt]

15 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I could honestly do this all day. 
 

 

Would so love to have the auto and drive it on road trips especially over HWY20 here as that twisty drive would be a blast in this Performance SUV. 

I rarely see Trailblazer SS go up for sale since they are limited edition and when they do they usually are still higher priced than other non-limited production autos that are selling.

[trinacriabob]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:35 PM, David said:

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @ccap41 @surreal1272 @Drew Dowdell @trinacriabob @riviera74

Check out what the Hellcat can do on the German Autobahn.

 

I will miss this car a lot ... not the Hellcat or other tricked out versions, but the basic car and what it represents.  I'm perfectly fine with 292 hp to the 717 hp of the car shown here!

At about 3:30 in the video, it hits that 298 kmh.  That is ~185 mph!  While watching this, I was hoping no one would change lanes on this guy.  Not only that, with the evergreen tree cover on both sides of the autobahn, I was hoping no deer would come jumping across the roadway.  

When he's transitioning from one roadway to another, I like how nimbly this 4,000 pound car appears to handle.  I guess my love of this car will have to be relegated to 5 to 10 rentals of one as opposed to actual ownership.

@oldshurst442  It indeed has some German DNA.  The transmission is sourced in Germany, the engine is American, and final assembly takes place in Brampton, ON, Canada.  But it sounds like you know that.

This car has more than enough German DNA to outrun Irma Bunt and her evil cronies with ease.

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by trinacriabob

[G. David Felt]

@oldshurst442 @ccap41 @Robert Hall @surreal1272 @smk4565 @trinacriabob @riviera74 @Drew Dowdell

Seems you guys will get further Charger/Challanger ICE autos's based on standard and HO 6 cylinder engine.

Seems a video shown at the dealer meeting has leaked out also as a Jeep EV.

Stellantis dealer briefing hints at midsize Ram, Jeep Recon, Dodge Stealth - Autoblog

[Drew Dowdell]

While I applaud the charger being made optional with the turbo inline-6, they really need to do a new 300 with that setup and give it the interior quality the Grand Wagoneer is getting. Make an EV version also, and the Chrysler brand is back on the map faster than you can say Genesis. 

[oldshurst442]

31 minutes ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 @ccap41 @Robert Hall @surreal1272 @smk4565 @trinacriabob @riviera74 @Drew Dowdell

Seems you guys will get further Charger/Challanger ICE autos's based on standard and HO 6 cylinder engine.

Seems a video shown at the dealer meeting has leaked out also as a Jeep EV.

Stellantis dealer briefing hints at midsize Ram, Jeep Recon, Dodge Stealth - Autoblog

 

On 3/22/2023 at 11:17 PM, oldshurst442 said:

 

Although I miss the V8s in the Mopar muscle cars already (and they are not gone just yet...), I am curious to see what kind of Challenger (andCharger) that inline 6 will make them into.  Although Id prefer a lighter new platform Challenger (same size though) for the inline 6 to power, I am down with an inline 6 to them.  And I agree with @smk4565.  I dont think they are truly gone just yet.  And like how he says it...as 6 cylinder models.  

 

Thanx David for the info!!! 

And yes @SMK.  The Charger will get the Hurricane I-6 in both guises.  SO and HO.  High output...

The title mentions Challenger, but the article ONLY talks about the next Charger.  But it does mention the EV version.  So...the article is a little murky in the details, which doesnt include all that much information to begin with.  But...its a good piece to get us excited.  Especially what a twin turbo high output inline 6 will do to a possible new platform Charger/Challenger.  And the naming possibilites of the SRT model.   

But as @Drew Dowdell stated:

21 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

While I applaud the charger being made optional with the turbo inline-6, they really need to do a new 300 with that setup and give it the interior quality the Grand Wagoneer is getting. Make an EV version also, and the Chrysler brand is back on the map faster than you can say Genesis. 

 

The old platform does need to go.  But I do want the new platform to be the size, length and width, as the old platform.  

But...believe it or not, Im more excited with the EV version.   Since I have made peace with the world around us for internal combustion engines going away, and more precisely, V8s going away,  I cant wait to get my hands on the EV Charger/Challenger.

 

I am not to sad for V8s going away either if I were to be honest with you.  I havent owned a V8 car since the mid to late 1990s.  And it was a tired old V8 at that.  And it was the ONLY V8 I have EVER owned.  Quebec gasoline prices and winters ALWAYS put a dent in V8 ownership.  

And...a lifetime of driving V6s and (ome or two) 4 cylinder cars, an electric powertrain, even in basic form is a step up.  OK...on an equal plane for a BASIC EV powertrain a la Bolt versus a 6 cylinder.  

A basic EV powertrain for a Charger will be sufficient for me.  Dual Motor for the AWD part.  Because winter is still a thing in Quebec.  Therefore,  an EV Charger like the concept will probably BE my next sedan purchase.  Unless General Motors does something interesting and muscle-y carish with a Chevy branded EV sedan of its own...   

 

[G. David Felt]

@oldshurst442 Totally agree with you that I am fine with the V8 going away. I am very excited for the EV generation of performance cars.

Love the looks of the Banshee.

Could see the Banshee in your driveway as you come out to go to work.

I know this is just someones photoshop, but would be freakin awesome to have a Banshee Station wagon.

[smk4565]

48 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

While I applaud the charger being made optional with the turbo inline-6, they really need to do a new 300 with that setup and give it the interior quality the Grand Wagoneer is getting. Make an EV version also, and the Chrysler brand is back on the map faster than you can say Genesis. 

I would imagine once they engineer the inline 6 for the Charger, to do it in the 300 and do the emissions certification or whatever they need to do would only add pennies on the dollar.  But how many people would buy a 400 or 500 hp Chrysler 300?  But if it doesn't cost them anything, then why not.

I think the ship has long sailed on making Chrysler a luxury brand, or even a relevant brand.  You could put the Grand Wagoneer interior in a 300 with the 500 hp hurricane I-6 and charge $50,000 for it, and it wouldn't sell.  We saw Lincoln try with the Continental and that bombed, CT6 bombed.  Big sedans aren't a market, sedans in general aren't much of a market.  And if it were an EV Chrysler, it would have to be superior in every way to a Tesla and cheaper than a Tesla to get people to even consider it, because Chrysler is the past, Tesla is the future.

[riviera74]

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I would imagine once they engineer the inline 6 for the Charger, to do it in the 300 and do the emissions certification or whatever they need to do would only add pennies on the dollar.  But how many people would buy a 400 or 500 hp Chrysler 300?  But if it doesn't cost them anything, then why not.

I think the ship has long sailed on making Chrysler a luxury brand, or even a relevant brand.  You could put the Grand Wagoneer interior in a 300 with the 500 hp hurricane I-6 and charge $50,000 for it, and it wouldn't sell.  We saw Lincoln try with the Continental and that bombed, CT6 bombed.  Big sedans aren't a market, sedans in general aren't much of a market.  And if it were an EV Chrysler, it would have to be superior in every way to a Tesla and cheaper than a Tesla to get people to even consider it, because Chrysler is the past, Tesla is the future.

I applaud the inline 6 because a lot of automakers should have done the same to their RWD cars and trucks (FORD and GM needed the I6 over their base 4cyl and 6cyl current engines).  As for a large sedan, that is the past unfortunately.  Stellantis should at least try an EV Chrysler, but it would have to top out where the (alleged) 30K Tesla begins.

Chrysler can have a future, if Stellantis would allow one for Chrysler.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I would imagine once they engineer the inline 6 for the Charger, to do it in the 300 and do the emissions certification or whatever they need to do would only add pennies on the dollar.  But how many people would buy a 400 or 500 hp Chrysler 300?  But if it doesn't cost them anything, then why not.

I think the ship has long sailed on making Chrysler a luxury brand, or even a relevant brand.  You could put the Grand Wagoneer interior in a 300 with the 500 hp hurricane I-6 and charge $50,000 for it, and it wouldn't sell.  We saw Lincoln try with the Continental and that bombed, CT6 bombed.  Big sedans aren't a market, sedans in general aren't much of a market.  And if it were an EV Chrysler, it would have to be superior in every way to a Tesla and cheaper than a Tesla to get people to even consider it, because Chrysler is the past, Tesla is the future.

I'd have Chrylser aim for more Semi-lux like what Buick was trying to do a few years ago before they switched almost entirely to sub-compact 3-cylinder crossovers.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the CT6. It was better than any E-Class aside from the 63 at the same price, and it gave the space and ride of the S-Class. What happened was brand snobs like you insisted it wasn't an S-Class, so it was no damn good... when it was never intended to be an S-Class, it was E-Class price but Cadillac sized. It had a far more advanced platform than anything Benz had, it had self driving before Benz did, it had 4-wheel steering and the most advanced suspension.... and even after it was canceled, they still look better than an E-Class

The Continental had some packaging issues but was still a very nice luxury car.

Chrylser is perfectly capable of putting a nice interior in the 300. They just need to drop the rental spec trims.

[trinacriabob]

23 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Beautiful.  I have driven one Chrysler 300 as a rental (for one day, and reviewed it) and several Dodge Chargers.  I love both cars.  While the appointments are different on purpose and the Dodge is slightly more athletic, the decibel range of what was going on while driving them was about the same to me.  I was expecting the 300 to have a slightly quieter cabin.

@riviera74  I, too, look upon I-6s favorably.  They operate very quietly.   They'd have to tweak them to get better mpg out of them.  When the Chevy Trailblazer of the 2000s went to a Vortec 4.2 L I-6, the rated mileage was far from stellar.  That could have been the upright nature of the vehicle.  It might have fared better in sedans and coupes.  The one inline 6 we had when I was growing up was almost more reliable than our Olds V8s.

@oldshurst442 I appreciate the possibilities you are posting, but I'm hoping car designers can do better than cranking out more and more retros, whether ICE or EV.  When Chargers and Challengers had that vertically short inset rectangular front fascia and a similar treatment for the rear fascia, I did not like them at all.  That's a chapter in Mopar history I want to forget.  But that's just me.  People who have those cars and go to car shows will disagree with me.

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, trinacriabob said:

 

@oldshurst442 I appreciate the possibilities you are posting, but I'm hoping car designers can do better than cranking out more and more retros, whether ICE or EV.  When Chargers and Challengers had that vertically short inset rectangular front fascia and a similar treatment for the rear fascia, I did not like them at all.  That's a chapter in Mopar history I want to forget.  But that's just me.  People who have those cars and go to car shows will disagree with me.

Yeah... I definetely see and can agree with your point of view.   

I am not against a new design language for either a Chrysler or Dodge.  

What I AM looking for though, is a mid to full sized sedan, from either Ford, GM or Mopar, with muscle car cues, not necessarily retro styled either, but definetely muscle car DNA styling.  With a design language that speaks Ford or Chevy or Mopar.  

So yeah... I am on board with your opinion!!! 

 

[ccap41]

16 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

While I applaud the charger being made optional with the turbo inline-6, they really need to do a new 300 with that setup and give it the interior quality the Grand Wagoneer is getting. Make an EV version also, and the Chrysler brand is back on the map faster than you can say Genesis. 

I don't know why the 300 never REALLY got a premium interior. I think they should have been playing in the luxury market with Chrysler 20 years ago. 

[Drew Dowdell]

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I don't know why the 300 never REALLY got a premium interior. I think they should have been playing in the luxury market with Chrysler 20 years ago. 

It was a weird sequence of events. It did get some premium stuff.

1. When the LX cars came out, the Intrepid sedan was only replaced by the Magnum wagon. Daimler-Chrylser assumed that they could get people out of their sedans and into a wagon.

2. The 300 was originally released mostly in top trim forms powered by the Hemi.

3. DCX quickly realized that people were not going to buy the Magnum in Intrepid type numbers (Intrepid was a best seller at the time), so rather than rush out a Charger, they quickly added lower content trims to the 300. They used the low-end seats and interior bits from the base Magnum, the 2.7 liter engine, 17-inch plastic hubcaps, etc.

4. DCX, in an attempt to keep volumes up, pushed these low-end 300 models with cheap lease deals.  This devalued the prestige.

5. The Charger came out 2 years after the Magnum/300 to take over the low end of the market, but the damage to the 300's prestige was already done.

6. With the 2011 refresh, Chrysler introduces the C Executive (later renamed Platinum), the S, the John Varvatos edition, and the SRT.  The Executive series is what you see in the pictures I posted above.

Unfortunately, in spite of the attempt to move up market, people didn't buy them that way.

 

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

When the Chevy Trailblazer of the 2000s went to a Vortec 4.2 L I-6, the rated mileage was far from stellar.  That could have been the upright nature of the vehicle.  It might have fared better in sedans and coupes.  The one inline 6 we had when I was growing up was almost more reliable than our Olds V8s.

My parents had an Envoy with that I6. The engine was just fine but I think those crappy 4spd autos really just sucked all of the life out of the engine. I think a modern 6-8spd would have faired waaaay better. 

[smk4565]

19 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'd have Chrylser aim for more Semi-lux like what Buick was trying to do a few years ago before they switched almost entirely to sub-compact 3-cylinder crossovers.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the CT6. It was better than any E-Class aside from the 63 at the same price, and it gave the space and ride of the S-Class. What happened was brand snobs like you insisted it wasn't an S-Class, so it was no damn good... when it was never intended to be an S-Class, it was E-Class price but Cadillac sized. It had a far more advanced platform than anything Benz had, it had self driving before Benz did, it had 4-wheel steering and the most advanced suspension.... and even after it was canceled, they still look better than an E-Class

The Continental had some packaging issues but was still a very nice luxury car.

Chrylser is perfectly capable of putting a nice interior in the 300. They just need to drop the rental spec trims.

Chrysler tried that upmarket push with the 300 back in 2005 and the Crossfire and Aspen, that didn't work.  Buick's push to mid-luxury didn't work, Mazda is trying it now and it isn't working.  People aren't going to pay $50,000 for a Chrysler when they can get a Lexus for that money or a Toyota/Kia/Honda, whatever for less.   And that Chrysler may look good on the surface but I imagine that is all plastic wood, and probably in 5 years that interior will look terrible because the materials Chrysler uses are made to look good new, but not hold up over time.  That is what cheap materials do.  Stellantis is clueless on quality.  Mitsubishi puts quilted leather in $30k crossovers too to try to pull that trick.

CT6 had a bad interior and again the quality of materials is a problem.  Way too much GM parts bin in that car, anytime I sat in one, all I could think was cheap plastic and budget cuts.  Also weak and unrefined powertrains at the start, the V8 showed up way too late.  It was a car with no market, if you are going to build a big luxury car it better be S-class good, otherwise make a mid-size car, but part of the problem was also the CTS was upsized to be a discount 5-series, so it put the CT6 into no-man's land in the market.

And the badge snob thing is true, people aren't going to touch these brands with damaged reputations.  

 

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't know why the 300 never REALLY got a premium interior. I think they should have been playing in the luxury market with Chrysler 20 years ago. 

Because Chrysler = cost cutting.

[riviera74]

This is the REAL problem with GM and Chrysler: NO clear differentiation between luxury and common.  Ford does a somewhat better job of this.

That CT6 needed to directly match the E-class/5 series from an interior standpoint or just get out of the way.  The rules have changed and GM did not learn this when they lost their luxury leadership in the 80s.  The 1990 Lexus LS400 sealed Cadillac's fate not long after.

As for Chrysler, they refuse to go big on luxury or go home.  This a worse situation than Cadillac. 

While EV may well be the future, we still need quality ICE powertrains for the rest of the decade.  Not everybody will go EV until it is essentially proven AND actually affordable.  EVs may not have the market share required to go replace all ICE cars before 2030 at the earliest.  How many regular people (NOT early adopters!) will embrace and BUY EVs before then?

[G. David Felt]

14 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

This is the REAL problem with GM and Chrysler: NO clear differentiation between luxury and common.  Ford does a somewhat better job of this.

That CT6 needed to directly match the E-class/5 series from an interior standpoint or just get out of the way.  The rules have changed and GM did not learn this when they lost their luxury leadership in the 80s.  The 1990 Lexus LS400 sealed Cadillac's fate not long after.

As for Chrysler, they refuse to go big on luxury or go home.  This a worse situation than Cadillac. 

While EV may well be the future, we still need quality ICE powertrains for the rest of the decade.  Not everybody will go EV until it is essentially proven AND actually affordable.  EVs may not have the market share required to go replace all ICE cars before 2030 at the earliest.  How many regular people (NOT early adopters!) will embrace and BUY EVs before then?

CT6 was ever bit as competitive as the E-Class form Benz. Cadillac failed to market it and get it into the view of the public. Many believe they were already committed to go EV and felt they had to do a small bit of CT6 here but would have rather not done anything and just move to EV. 

If you ever get a chance to sit in and drive a CT6 you will see it not only competes but beats the E-Class in many ways.

Yes, Chrysler has a bigger challenge but that does not mean they are out. The future will be interesting.