Industry News: KIA EV9 Will It Be The First To Market A Full Size EV SUV?

[G. David Felt]

The Korean Herald News outlet is reporting that South Koreas second-largest automaker Kia will start production of their full-size EV9 SUV in the first half of 2023 after Kia's labor union (Korean Metal Workers) and Kia management fame to agreement on production, strategy and future employment security.

According to the new source, the Kia EV9 will be produced at the company's Gwangmyeong factory in Gyeonggi Province. The EV9 SUV is expected to officially start taking pre-orders in April. The specifications of the EV9 Concept that Kia has stated has been kept close to the concept are 194 inches long, 122 inch wheelbase, 81 inches wide and 70 inches tall. This has it on the smaller side of the fullsize SUV market but on par with the Ford Explorer.

Comparison of Full Size SUVs provided by carindigo.com.

The Kora Herald is also reporting that this same production site will start producing two more EVs next year in 2024. These will be global EVs filling in the Small Car and Mid-sized car categories. The projects are labeled as "CT" and "SV" with industry watchers predicting this is the EV3 and EV4 as Kia stays with their EV naming scheme.

The agreement with the unions have confirmed that Kia will build a new plant in the province and will be the first new plant since 1997. The new factory will produce only EVs with the addition of the PBV's products at this plant which will be Kia unmanned subcompact cars for delivery and robot taxis.

Kia has previously unveiled its plan to release two new EVs every year expanding their global lineup of EVs to 14 by 2027 as released at last year's 2022 investor's event held in March.

Details of the EV9 at the time of the reveal was as follows:

• Battery Range options of 220 to 290 miles or 354 to 467 kilometers
• RWD versions would have 150 kW output  (201 HP)
• AWD versions would have 300kW output (402 HP)

Kia had stated at the time of the reveal that the EV9 would sell for between $56,000 and $73,000 U.S. dollars and that additional specifications would be released just before pre-ordering was opened, so more should be coming in April 2023 about the EV9.

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[G. David Felt]

Very cool, ahead of the reveal this month, Kia has dropped a teaser of the EV9.

 

[Drew Dowdell]

I changed the title to add "EV"... because Kia is definitely not the first to market a full-size SUV.

But that said, they've already missed the boat on the EV criteria as well.  The Rivian R1S is on sale now and can carry 7 passengers.

There's also a solid possibility there will be a production Traverse EV (or equivalent vehicle) debuting in the next 10 months.

[smk4565]

The squared off SUV look is in (thanks to the Wrangler and G-wagen), you see Bronco, Bronco Sport, Defender, etc.  The new Santa Fe is supposedly all boxy too.  So I think this will do pretty well, assuming they can build them in the USA and get the tax credit, otherwise they might be a bit priced out if the competition gets it.

Rivian's products are too expensive and they are already seeing a slow down in demand and they have been on sale one year.  Same with Lucid.  There is limited market for $100k product, especially at a time with high inflation and slumping stock market which concerns the type of people that buy $100k vehicles.  Auto manufacturers need volume and scale to be profitable, Rivian and Lucid are just burning cash, I don't see how they make it.

[Drew Dowdell]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The squared off SUV look is in (thanks to the Wrangler and G-wagen), you see Bronco, Bronco Sport, Defender, etc.  The new Santa Fe is supposedly all boxy too.  So I think this will do pretty well, assuming they can build them in the USA and get the tax credit, otherwise they might be a bit priced out if the competition gets it.

Rivian's products are too expensive and they are already seeing a slow down in demand and they have been on sale one year.  Same with Lucid.  There is limited market for $100k product, especially at a time with high inflation and slumping stock market which concerns the type of people that buy $100k vehicles.  Auto manufacturers need volume and scale to be profitable, Rivian and Lucid are just burning cash, I don't see how they make it.

Rivian has their hands in Jeff Bezo's pockets. They'll make it or Amazon will just buy them outright.

[G. David Felt]

@Drew Dowdell @smk4565 @oldshurst442 @ccap41 @surreal1272 @Robert Hall @riviera74 

Latest teaser of the full reveal coming on Wednesday March 15th which will cover both interior and exterior views. Kia has also stated that pricing and options will be released at pre-order day at the end of March.

 

[ccap41]

Hyundai and Kia move SOOOOO much faster than the other legacy companies. They're popping out new vehicles every 6-9 months, it seems, and the other legacy companies take two years. 

[oldshurst442]

Just now, ccap41 said:

Hyundai and Kia move SOOOOO much faster than the other legacy companies. They're popping out new vehicles every 6-9 months, it seems, and the other legacy companies take two years. 

Yes.

But...it also seems like Hyundai and KIA are suffering with recall, fire and over all reliability issues because of it.   Not to mention cheap security materials resulting in TIK TOK challenge thefts that peaked the interest of insurance companies that right now, refuse to insure Hyundais and KIAs... 

These are all 2022 articles...

https://driving.ca/auto-news/industry/hyundai-kia-to-book-another-2-billion-hit-on-engine-problems

https://www.businessinsider.com/hyundai-kia-recall-fire-risk-park-outside-500000-cars-2022-2

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2023/01/30/kia-hyundai-theft-issues-state-farm-progressive/11148537002/

 

Maybe they should take a slight breather and concetrate on better quality control as to not upset the image apple cart.   But then again,  self hatin' Americans and shytty American media refuse to put the same type of pressure on other shytty OEMs as they do to...uh...say GM...  

[G. David Felt]

38 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yes.

But...it also seems like Hyundai and KIA are suffering with recall, fire and over all reliability issues because of it.   Not to mention cheap security materials resulting in TIK TOK challenge thefts that peaked the interest of insurance companies that right now, refuse to insure Hyundais and KIAs... 

These are all 2022 articles...

https://driving.ca/auto-news/industry/hyundai-kia-to-book-another-2-billion-hit-on-engine-problems

https://www.businessinsider.com/hyundai-kia-recall-fire-risk-park-outside-500000-cars-2022-2

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2023/01/30/kia-hyundai-theft-issues-state-farm-progressive/11148537002/

 

Maybe they should take a slight breather and concetrate on better quality control as to not upset the image apple cart.   But then again,  self hatin' Americans and shytty American media refuse to put the same type of pressure on other shytty OEMs as they do to...uh...say GM...  

First off, keep in mind that this does affect all Kia/Hyundai 2015 to 2021 vehicles due to the fact that Kia/Hyundai due to both companies did not include electronic immobilizers in the autos. This changed as they moved to updated platforms for ICE starting in 2022 and their new EV platform that both has encrypted systems which has been in many other auto companies for years.

For most of the current 2015 to 2021 autos, they are getting a software update that will give a software electronic immobilizer to all existing autos.

3.8 million Hyundais and 4.5 million Kias, so a busy upgrade time for the dealerships.

Interesting is that in high theft areas, Kia/Hyundai had been offering wheel locks to prevent theft and to date since they started in November 2022, they have handed out 26,000-wheel locks.

Weird that they felt the cost of a wheel lock was cheaper than a software fix, update of the auto.

@ccap41

The Kia/Hyundai EV platform is a modern encrypted platform, which being a skateboard base platform, makes it much easier to bring out new models.

Same approach that GM is using, Ultium is an encrypted platform allowing them to roll out models faster. As GM ramps up as Battery Cell production comes online, we will see more models roll out.

I honestly think all OEM Auto Companies will have an easier time updating their models once they move to an EV platform. 

In regard to the Kia EV9 Teaser, I am very much liking what I see so far for this SUV.

[G. David Felt]

FYI, my gut feeling is that Kia/Hyundai was hoping the theft issue would just go away as they focus on transitioning to a pure EV auto company with their new encrypted platform. 

Sadly, thieves do not ignore the ability to steal. This easy software fix should have been done years ago.

[ccap41]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yes.

But...it also seems like Hyundai and KIA are suffering with recall, fire and over all reliability issues because of it.   Not to mention cheap security materials resulting in TIK TOK challenge thefts that peaked the interest of insurance companies that right now, refuse to insure Hyundais and KIAs... 

These are all 2022 articles...

https://driving.ca/auto-news/industry/hyundai-kia-to-book-another-2-billion-hit-on-engine-problems

https://www.businessinsider.com/hyundai-kia-recall-fire-risk-park-outside-500000-cars-2022-2

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2023/01/30/kia-hyundai-theft-issues-state-farm-progressive/11148537002/

 

Maybe they should take a slight breather and concetrate on better quality control as to not upset the image apple cart.   But then again,  self hatin' Americans and shytty American media refuse to put the same type of pressure on other shytty OEMs as they do to...uh...say GM...  

Are the theft issues related solely to their ICE vehicles? Do their EVs even have a key to plug in? 

Fire risk? Chevy bolt.

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Are the theft issues related solely to their ICE vehicles? Do their EVs even have a key to plug in? 

Fire risk? Chevy bolt.

No need to defend Hyundai/Kia CCAP.

The Bolt's fire issues are not  directly from GM but of their battery supplier...  Semantics is semantics.  But my point stands when deflection is made and a "WHAT ABOUT"  argument arises...  

The Hyundai/Kia fires are from their 4 cylinder engines.  Like Ford's problems with their 1.6 4 cylinder ecoboost and their 3.5 V6.  

But with Ford, no injuries.  

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/why-so-many-hyundai-kia-vehicles-get-recalled-for-fire-risk-a1169940635/

More than 7 million vehicles have been recalled. If you own one, here’s what you should know.

Since 2010, more than 3,100 Hyundai and Kia vehicles have caught fire, injuring 103 people and killing one, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), the government agency investigating both automakers. These fires may be related to a type of four-cylinder engine used by both automakers. 

But those numbers reflect just a fraction of the millions of Hyundai and Kia vehicles that are at increased risk for catching fire for other reasons—including faulty wiring and brake system and battery problems—and aren’t part of this current NHTSA probe. In fact, according to tallies from Consumer Reports and the Center for Automotive Safety, over the past 12 years the automakers have sent recall notices for over 7 million cars and SUVs to fix problems that could cause vehicles to catch fire.

In some cases, the automakers have been unable to immediately address the underlying issues and have instructed owners to park their vehicles outside and away from structures to minimize property damage if the vehicles catch fire.

 

 

Like I said...we STILL talk about Ford Pintos catching on fire.  Yes, I know...something more sinister about Ford CEOs tallying up what was cheaper, recalls or death pay offs.  But why arent the same type of investigations going on for Hyundai/KIA right now.     The past 12 years for Hyundai and Kia.  The Pinto didnt last in the market place a fraction of that 12 year number.

Lets hold Hyundai/Kia to the SAME standards that we held Ford and GM accountable during the malaise era and let us BOYCOT Hyundai and Kia...

What about THEM apples???!!! 

 

[ccap41]

11 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Bolt's fire issues are not  directly from GM but of their battery supplier...  Semantics is semantics.  But my point stands when deflection is made and a "WHAT ABOUT"  argument arises...  

If you read my initial comment, it was a direct comparison to the legacies, GM included. You can pick a Ford fire or Toyota wheel falling off, as well. 

My point still stands that H/K are bringing new vehicles to market a hell of a lot faster than GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc.

If you're going to make a "WHAT ABOUT" argument, it's yours. "H/K are way faster at getting new products to market."  "WHAT ABOUT their problems though!?!?"

[oldshurst442]

41 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

If you read my initial comment, it was a direct comparison to the legacies, GM included. You can pick a Ford fire or Toyota wheel falling off, as well. 

My point still stands that H/K are bringing new vehicles to market a hell of a lot faster than GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc.

If you're going to make a "WHAT ABOUT" argument, it's yours. "H/K are way faster at getting new products to market."  "WHAT ABOUT their problems though!?!?"

They might BE bringing out a ton of cars, but their cars have a ton of problems...

Maybe...they should SLACK off the numbers and concentrate on quality control.  Because, its kinda useless to bring out new model after new model when their models arent exactly driven by their new owners and are being recalled...

Because you were quite impressed by their new model roll out.  I wasnt BECAUSE well...shytty cars. 

Same problem Ford has had and if you have been paying attention, I have been jabbing at Ford for THAT exact reason...   Ford has been just as shytty as Hyundai/Kia has for new vehicle roll out.  

I dont defend anyone. But I DO lend my opnion out for shyttyness.  Hyundai no different.

BUT...

Ill repeat, its funny how when the BiG 3  done shyte 40-50 years ago...self-hatin' Americans let them know but its funny how Toyota been doin' shyte and they get a free pass.  Hyundai/KIA is ALL OVER the news RIGHT NOW and not a phoquing peep...

But praise them for rolling out new models at a record pace...I guess...     Forget about almost record setting pace in recalls and shytyness...   My bad. 

 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Are the theft issues related solely to their ICE vehicles? Do their EVs even have a key to plug in? 

Fire risk? Chevy bolt.

Yes, the theft issue is totally related to their ICE lineup.

K/H has no keys for EVs, an encrypted fob and encrypted phone app and that is it. 

I would have to say that it will be much harder for people to steal EVs, then ICE. 

I agree with @oldshurst442 Seems the Legacy companies catch far more BS than the Broken Frame issues and Wheels falling off of Toyota or the decades long Fire issue of K/H cars with their 4 banger motor.

Dead on about Pinto hurting ford more than a motor fire hurting K/H. 

Interesting history on the Pinto.

How Dangerous was the Ford Pinto? The Most Dangerous Car? (reifflawfirm.com)

27 official deaths with an average payout of $6 million per death for a total payout of $162,000,000 million. 

Interesting, did not know they built Pinto's from 1970 to 1980 last model year.

Ford Pinto - Wikipedia

Ford (USA) Pinto production numbers data (automobile-catalog.com)

[ccap41]

53 minutes ago, David said:

K/H has no keys for EVs, an encrypted fob and encrypted phone app and that is it. 

That's what I was thinking but I didn't actually have knowledge of it or not. Thank you!

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

They might BE bringing out a ton of cars, but their cars have a ton of problems...

Maybe...they should SLACK off the numbers and concentrate on quality control.  Because, its kinda useless to bring out new model after new model when their models arent exactly driven by their new owners and are being recalled...

Ford is slow to market AND everything has been filled with troubles the last 5 years. I don't think they've had a single new vehicles launch without some pretty major issue within that time period. 

I'd agree that taking your time and not having major issues would be great... if that was the case. 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Ill repeat, its funny how when the BiG 3  done shyte 40-50 years ago...self-hatin' Americans let them know but its funny how Toyota been doin' shyte and they get a free pass.  Hyundai/KIA is ALL OVER the news RIGHT NOW and not a phoquing peep...

What do you mean "not a phoquiing peep"? You literally just said it's all over the news right now. Their theft issues have been on every news outlet the past 6 months or so. 

I guess I should just limit my praise to NO MANUFACTURER because they all have their faults and if you praise one of them, you're blind to something. 

[oldshurst442]

Just now, ccap41 said:

What do you mean "not a phoquiing peep"? You literally just said it's all over the news right now. Their theft issues have been on every news outlet the past 6 months or so. 

News.  Reporting it but not condemning it.  

News reports of the 70s, 80s, 90s and well into the 2010s, NEWS reports would ROAST the Big 3.   ROAST them.     

That NBC  "news show"  even staged FAKE fire explosions to undermine GM...

 

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I'd agree that taking your time and not having major issues would be great... if that was the case. 

Thank-You

This is all I was saying.  But of course...a little rant to go along with that stance...   But the rant is genuine.   Its an opinion that I truly believe in. 

[G. David Felt]

@oldshurst442 @ccap41

Course very interesting to see how conservative news outlets are raging about how EVs are fire hazards, and we need to stop it as ICE is safer BS.

Montana has put forth a bill in their state senate to stop EV sales as a hazard to Americans. Unfortunately for the crazy GOP Trumpers, they also acknowledge that it will not go anywhere due to the large increase in EV sales especially in the state capital where over 300 Tesla's are owned and driven daily. 

Wyoming lawmakers seek electric vehicle ban; Montana business sees EV increase (ktvq.com)

Wyoming ban on electric cars by 2035 pushed by lawmakers (usatoday.com)

Course everyone has their own agenda. I read a story about GM's voice system called CHATGPT that will be going into all new ICE/EV auto's starting 2024 and how GM is trying to get rid of LG due to the battery fires of the BOLT. 

I had to laugh at this as LG and GM are tied up in their 3 pouch making battery plants for a25 or 30 year long term contract to control prices and production efficiencies. I see no way LG is going anywhere. If only these idiots would do their research before mouthing off.

GM explores using ChatGPT in vehicles | Reuters

GM explores using ChatGPT in vehicles (cnbc.com)

[smk4565]

In 2022, Tesla sales were up 44%, Mercedes up 6%, GM up 3%.

All other car companies were negative, some like Nissan and Honda down over 30%.  

Tesla since lowered prices and got a $7500 tax credit on their volume sellers.  So we know they are going up again, and have Cybertruck at the end of the year to carry them in 2024.

Most of these other companies are clueless and way behind on the EV front when it comes to manufacturing at scale and cost.   I think the EV switch comes like a tidal wave in the next few years and the ones that don't have both good product and ability to produce at scale are going to be screwed.  

Hyundai/Kia can't ramp up scale fast enough and they don't have the tax credit since they aren't built in the US, at least not yet.  But by the time they get a US plant going, Tesla will have the next-gen car at $25,000 or whatever it costs and it is game over for them.

[smk4565]

17 minutes ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 @ccap41

Course very interesting to see how conservative news outlets are raging about how EVs are fire hazards, and we need to stop it as ICE is safer BS.

Montana has put forth a bill in their state senate to stop EV sales as a hazard to Americans. Unfortunately for the crazy GOP Trumpers, they also acknowledge that it will not go anywhere due to the large increase in EV sales especially in the state capital where over 300 Tesla's are owned and driven daily. 

Wyoming lawmakers seek electric vehicle ban; Montana business sees EV increase (ktvq.com)

Wyoming ban on electric cars by 2035 pushed by lawmakers (usatoday.com)

Course everyone has their own agenda. I read a story about GM's voice system called CHATGPT that will be going into all new ICE/EV auto's starting 2024 and how GM is trying to get rid of LG due to the battery fires of the BOLT. 

I had to laugh at this as LG and GM are tied up in their 3 pouch making battery plants for a25 or 30 year long term contract to control prices and production efficiencies. I see no way LG is going anywhere. If only these idiots would do their research before mouthing off.

GM explores using ChatGPT in vehicles | Reuters

GM explores using ChatGPT in vehicles (cnbc.com)

Correct that ICE cars are far more likely to catch fire than a battery car.  It is like 100 or 1000 times more likely, I forget which, but it isn't even close.  And it is people with political agendas, or oil companies trying to hold on to their business.

Wyoming can ban EV's in 2035 if they want, but then there will be no new car sales in Wyoming.   China is the largest car market, 22% of their sales were EV last year, by 2035 that might be 100%.  California alone is a top 10 car market in the world and they were at 19% EV last year.   The big markets are moving EV, that is what manufacturers will make.

I am not a Tesla fan boy, I don't want to buy one, but if they really do deliver on the $25,000 car, or even $30k with some options (and they say it will have "full self drive") put on the tax credit and is a $22,500 car with options.  All the ICE small cars and crossovers are dead at that point.  And the German luxury brands and Cadillac won't even have an ICE car in 10 years to sell.  So what is left for ICE?

 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I am not a Tesla fan boy, I don't want to buy one, but if they really do deliver on the $25,000 car, or even $30k with some options (and they say it will have "full self drive") put on the tax credit and is a $22,500 car with options.  All the ICE small cars and crossovers are dead at that point.  And the German luxury brands and Cadillac won't even have an ICE car in 10 years to sell.  So what is left for ICE?

I don't think Tesla has delivered on any major new vehicle claim yet so I don't see them getting a 25k car to market either.  By the time they get something worth 25k today, the inflation costs will bring that to 30k anyway. Maybe their target is 25k with a federal tax credit so a 32,5k car. That would make more sense to me. 

[Robert Hall]

So how does it compare dimensionally to the Telluride and Palisade?

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

So how does it compare dimensionally to the Telluride and Palisade?

EV9 - 194 inches long, 122 inch wheelbase, 81 inches wide and 70 inches tall

Telluride - 196.9 inches long, 114 inch wheelbase, 78.3 inches wide, and 68.9 inches tall

Palisade - 196.7 inches long, 114 inch wheelbase, 77.8 inches wide, and 68.9 inches tall

Telluride and Palisade both have the same V6 engine at 291 hp, 262 lb-ft of torque

While a few inches shorter overall in length, interior should be very roomy as an EV.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think Tesla has delivered on any major new vehicle claim yet so I don't see them getting a 25k car to market either.  By the time they get something worth 25k today, the inflation costs will bring that to 30k anyway. Maybe their target is 25k with a federal tax credit so a 32,5k car. That would make more sense to me. 

It is possible though with the new factory in Mexico, lower labor rate and new way of assembling the car.  Even if they don’t deliver on 50% cost reduction, and  it is 33% reduction, a Model 3 is about $32k to build so the next Gen car would still be about $22k to build.  They could still sell under $30k before tax credits.

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It is possible though with the new factory in Mexico, lower labor rate and new way of assembling the car.  Even if they don’t deliver on 50% cost reduction, and  it is 33% reduction, a Model 3 is about $32k to build so the next Gen car would still be about $22k to build.  They could still sell under $30k before tax credits.

Will be interesting, what they say at investor meetings is so different than what they really deliver on.

Tesla has promised a $20K priced auto for a decade plus now and still not delivered.

Since they are 5 years behind on delivering a truck, this cheap car will be even lower on their list to deliver I tend to believe.

Mexico plant is at least 3 years out. When Tesla announced Germany, that ended up being way behind. In fact except for Musk's Communist friends, aka China, Tesla has never delivered anything on time let alone as they promised. 

Where is the Total Self Driving that Tesla has charged folks for over the last Decade plus? Still not here, Level 3 at best. I doubt Tesla will have it by 2025, might by 2030.

I actually expect GM and Mercedes to get there before Tesla will.

[ccap41]

19 minutes ago, David said:

EV9 - 194 inches long, 122 inch wheelbase, 81 inches wide and 70 inches tall

Telluride - 196.9 inches long, 114 inch wheelbase, 78.3 inches wide, and 68.9 inches tall

Palisade - 196.7 inches long, 114 inch wheelbase, 77.8 inches wide, and 68.9 inches tall

Telluride and Palisade both have the same V6 engine at 291 hp, 262 lb-ft of torque

While a few inches shorter overall in length, interior should be very roomy as an EV.

81 inches wide? That's incredibly wide and would require marker lights.

That may include mirrors while the Telluride and Palisade's numbers don't include the mirrors. 

[Robert Hall]

Telluride and Palisade have rather short wheelbases for 3 row CUVs.

[ccap41]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It is possible though with the new factory in Mexico, lower labor rate and new way of assembling the car.  Even if they don’t deliver on 50% cost reduction, and  it is 33% reduction, a Model 3 is about $32k to build so the next Gen car would still be about $22k to build.  They could still sell under $30k before tax credits.

I don't believe any Tesla claim until it's actually available. 

Hell, the Model 3 only sold at it's like 35k price point for a couple months before it either wasn't available in the trim or the price went up. 

[G. David Felt]

43 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

81 inches wide? That's incredibly wide and would require marker lights.

That may include mirrors while the Telluride and Palisade's numbers don't include the mirrors. 

Yes, per the press release they do say this includes side mirrors; they do not say what the width is without the side mirrors. I expect it to be about the same 78 inches or so.

[ccap41]

[G. David Felt]

Working to get an updated story out now.

[smk4565]

5 hours ago, David said:

Will be interesting, what they say at investor meetings is so different than what they really deliver on.

Tesla has promised a $20K priced auto for a decade plus now and still not delivered.

Since they are 5 years behind on delivering a truck, this cheap car will be even lower on their list to deliver I tend to believe.

Mexico plant is at least 3 years out. When Tesla announced Germany, that ended up being way behind. In fact except for Musk's Communist friends, aka China, Tesla has never delivered anything on time let alone as they promised. 

Where is the Total Self Driving that Tesla has charged folks for over the last Decade plus? Still not here, Level 3 at best. I doubt Tesla will have it by 2025, might by 2030.

I actually expect GM and Mercedes to get there before Tesla will.

Mercedes is at Level 3 now, and apparently the 40 mph limit on Drive Pilot is a regulatory limit, the system actually works to 70 mph, but much like laser headlights, they don't have regulatory approval to use it.  Tesla claims to be "full self drive" but it is Level 2 and is is over $10,000, the Mercedes Level 3 system is like $7,000 and the Level 2 is like $2,000.

But they say they can build the Mexico factory in less than a year, be operational late 2024.  5 years ago Tesla was selling ike 100,000 cars a year, this year they will be over 2 million.  They are growing like gangbusters in a shrinking overall market.  So if they do deliver on the low priced car, they will just keep growing while companies like Honda, Nissan, Stellantis take 20-30% annual drops.  Only takes a few years of that before the legacy OEMS have way too much overhead and capacity and start bleeding money.

I think the EV9 looks cool, I appreciate they put some real buttons in it and not just all screens.  Probably will cost a ton for a Kia though.

[Cmicasa the Great]

On 3/13/2023 at 12:30 PM, ccap41 said:

Hyundai and Kia move SOOOOO much faster than the other legacy companies. They're popping out new vehicles every 6-9 months, it seems, and the other legacy companies take two years. 

This is so true.. and despite the fact that the legacy companies are supposed to go fully ev by 2030.. the pace at which they are pushing out product is bewildering. My fav of course is GM.. but I'm let down over their pace the most.. considering the Ultium battery and EV platform is avail. U gave the Lyric a headstart for Cadillac.. and the Hummer for GMC.. there shold be nothing stopping them from having a Tahoe, Yukon, and obviously, Escalade EV on the roads.. not to mention the Blazer should already be out or on its way for Spring delivery.. APRIL. But here the issue.. IMO.. the Legacy companies, GM and Ford.. are still to beholden to old school thinkers. They are like Harley Davidson. They make beautiful, and finally, reliable bikes.. but they fail at addressing the younger generation alternatives from Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Honda by not having incorporated Buell into the ranks before Buell restarted on its own with Roland Sands. Case in point.. my Vrod.. AWESOME bike.. but because "Harley Guys" hated it in America.. they killed it. GM needs to get on the ball.. like Hyun/Kia.. just push out products that would sell under the EV heading. CAn U tell me why the CT4and CT5 aren't being continued with an EV powertrain like the 3series/5Series coming up.. or at the very least.. the hybrid system avail in the Corvette Eray?

[G. David Felt]

@ccap41 @Cmicasa the Great @oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @surreal1272 @Drew Dowdell @riviera74 @trinacriabob

One thing I just realized I have never ever stated is that Kia/Hyundai have had an edge in rolling out EVs faster than everyone else at this point. Samsung and LG connections that go farther back in battery supply than the U.S. Legacy OEMs. 

GM is leading all OEMs right now in building battery plants and will be able to roll out much more models faster once all the battery production comes online.

We are on the cusp of the next major revolution in the auto industry. Once battery capacity comes online, there will be nothing to stop the auto industry from making a much wider assortment of of EVs.

GM is to EVs what Henry Ford was to the Model A and making autos for the masses.

Ford is a solid Year behind GM in building battery plants and so is the rest of the auto industry. The Germans except for VW who is on pace to be equal to GM in Europe for battery production is leading. 

We have all seen the news stories about GM showing off 3 new EVs for Cadillac alone this year. An Escalade, XT6 equal EV and a Car EV equal to the CTs. We have not heard any rumors, but there is nothing holding GM back from showing off other GMC/Buick/Chevrolet models to come in the next 18 months as GM is going to have considerable battery production online by the end of this year and even more early next year.

Remember GM is planning to be able to produce 1 million EVs very soon. I think with the Entry and Mid-level EV SUVs they are bringing out this year, that should really help them ramp up production.

Thoughts?

[oldshurst442]

9 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

This is so true.. and despite the fact that the legacy companies are supposed to go fully ev by 2030.. the pace at which they are pushing out product is bewildering. My fav of course is GM.. but I'm let down over their pace the most.. considering the Ultium battery and EV platform is avail. U gave the Lyric a headstart for Cadillac.. and the Hummer for GMC.. there shold be nothing stopping them from having a Tahoe, Yukon, and obviously, Escalade EV on the roads.. not to mention the Blazer should already be out or on its way for Spring delivery.. APRIL. But here the issue.. IMO.. the Legacy companies, GM and Ford.. are still to beholden to old school thinkers. They are like Harley Davidson. They make beautiful, and finally, reliable bikes.. but they fail at addressing the younger generation alternatives from Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Honda by not having incorporated Buell into the ranks before Buell restarted on its own with Roland Sands. Case in point.. my Vrod.. AWESOME bike.. but because "Harley Guys" hated it in America.. they killed it. GM needs to get on the ball.. like Hyun/Kia.. just push out products that would sell under the EV heading. CAn U tell me why the CT4and CT5 aren't being continued with an EV powertrain like the 3series/5Series coming up.. or at the very least.. the hybrid system avail in the Corvette Eray?

Id rather GM continue on the way they are on now.    The EVs will be coming.  Slow.  But reliable.  GM cannot afford any missteps, any bad press any bad anything.   

The Lyriq's production was purposesly slowed down for exactly the reasons I stated above.

 

https://electrek.co/2023/01/11/gm-to-accelerate-cadillac-lyriq-rollout-after-122-deliveries-in-2022/#:~:text=After delivering only 122 Cadillac,customers receive the best quality.

 

After delivering only 122 Cadillac Lyriq EV models in 2022, General Motors says it was purposely slow with the rollout as it worked through issues with its new electric vehicle and to ensure customers receive the best quality. With a stockpile of 2023 Cadillac Lyriq models, GM says it’s now confident in its process going forward.

I bitched about quality issues of Hyundai and KIA and tied it with GM and how GM gets the shyte STILL today...    We talked about Hyundai/KIA issues with their ICE vehicles, but they also have issues with their EVs...

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hyundai-kia-ioniq5-ev6-rollaway-risk-recal/

Hyundai and its sister brand Kia are recalling their latest and greatest Ioniq 5 and EV6 electric vehicles over concerns that a software issue could cause their parking brakes to disengage and present a roll-away risk.

This recall affects 10,729 Ioniq 5s and 9,014 EV6s in total. With the problem being software-based, the fix for this issue is luckily relatively straightforward and involves your Hyundai or Kia mechanic updating the software for the Shifter Control Unit.
 

GM cant afford ANY of that kind of publicity.  GM has a record of quality as of late.  They NEED to continue this and rolling out EVs JUST for the sake of saying they have EVs out for sale is not necesssary as the ancient Bolt EV and EUV at the price GM is selling them now is comfortably in 3rd place.  Making money for a better transition going forward with an ALL EV line-up in the very very near future.   Their ICE trucks selling at a slight uptick making MORE money for GM.  Why spend all that profit for unnecessary recall repairs while getting a black eye on quality and reliabilty again?  

GM is feeling a tad frisky in spending money.  They want to go racing in F1 with Cadillac.  I think THAT is a better way to blow through cash than recall repairs with even more money on useless JD Power commercials tooting reliability trying to convince people that GM cars ARE reliable.  Yeah...remeber those commercials?   GM's marketing department gets to advertise Cadillac, Ultium if they go racing in F1 and the exposure is ALL POSITIVE.   No need to convince ANYBODY because the proof will BE in the pudding!!! 

Ill repeat.  

Hyundai/KIA and all those recalls and I YET to see ANYBODY complaing about how their wife's brother's uncle's sister bought a Hyundai and it was shyte and therefore they will NEVER buy a Hyundai EVER again.  GM gets to relive the malaise era time and time again even in 2023...  Rush the EVs, have as many as recalls as Hyundai has now and tell me with a straight face that GM will NOT get any blowback...

Edited March 15, 2023 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

9 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

IMO.. the Legacy companies, GM and Ford.. are still to beholden to old school thinkers.

I do not think that is true. Not anymore.

Sure...they want to produce trucks.  V8 trucks.  Hey...that is what makes them the cash.  

Ford has two EVs and both of those EVs are beholden to old school thinkers but told them outright: Your favorite Fords are now ELECTRIC...DEAL WITH IT.  Their cash cow, golden goose F150.  And their other icon.  The MUSTANG Mach-E.  And its a CUV.  4 door CUV.  

Cadillac has CUVed their Sedan DeVille and electrified it and called it the Lyriq.   

9 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

CAn U tell me why the CT4and CT5 aren't being continued with an EV powertrain like the 3series/5Series coming up.. or at the very least.. the hybrid system avail in the Corvette Eray?

And you mentioned the Vette.  And yes.  The E-Ray is gonna go on sale soon enough.  And there is a small pattern too.  Start off with EV models that can make money from the get go.   

They make money on a Lyriq. They make money on the Hummer EV.  Next up is the Silverado EV which is very closely related to the Hummer.  At the price point that the E-Ray is at, they will make money with that one too.  Especially when the C8 has been a success commercially. Would be even more so had it not been for chip shortgages and Covid closures. 

But...in (late?)2023 the Equinox EV and Trailblazer EV WILL be coming on line.   In 2024 is when GM will be talked about and their EVs.  Patience. 

Dont forget that in China...   SAIC/GM/Wuling is selling tons of EVs.   ANY hiccups will be rectified in China, GM will learn from that and GM USA will be better for it. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

9 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

my Vrod.. AWESOME bike.. but because "Harley Guys" hated it in America

Yesssss!   VROD IS an AWESOME bike!    

I thought it was a commercial success for H-D.

I know that there was a bunch of Harley guys that hated it, kinda like how some Corvette guys still hatin' on the C8, but I thought over all, the VROD sold well.  

[Cmicasa the Great]

@oldshurst442. @David. I see your points.. and agree on many. I get the slowed production for the sake of quality control, but don't like it. I ened up going back in time and buying a 2016 Checy Impala LTZ used, as a getaround-everyday car because I didn't want to put miles on my "Special" cars.. and the Escalade, being humongous, and taking 93..  isn't exactly my most effcient. Would U believe I considered a f@#kin Tesla.. and even a Mustang MachE? A Lyriq would just be treated as another special car in my stable.. as would the Hummer.. if they were readily avail. But a BLAZER SS EV?.. or even better.. a Malibu or Regal would truly fit the bill. None avail.. some never will be since GM and Ford have sworn off cars in favor of nothing but CUVs, while the transplant makers continue full on car production. 

@oldshurst442 and yes.. HELL YEAH the VRod is still awesome.. not to mention full on customizable due to European companies holding it tight to their chest. VRods are extremly loved in Europe. Still.. despite being outta production since 2017. I Loved it so much that after I sold my Night Rod Special in the Spring of '21.. I felt instant regret and tried to buy it back but to no avail.. then forced to seek out another in as great condition.. and alas.. did.. literally that Sept aquired a Vrod Muscle. Luv it to death... and while its no Hayabusa in terms of 200mph.. it can still hit 145 lol.. if I so dare

[G. David Felt]

I honestly think EVs will allow OEMs to produce cars as well as the SUV/Truck market.

[oldshurst442]

12 minutes ago, David said:

I honestly think EVs will allow OEMs to produce cars as well as the SUV/Truck market.

EV platforms will allow OEMs to produce sedans and coupes more easily and more economically effective but it is still the market place that determines if OEMs will WANT to produce coupes and sedans.    The market will determine if there will be a sedan and coupe market.   If North Americans wont buy a sedan or coupe, then there is no sedan or coupe to be produced.  

 

[Robert Hall]

53 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

  The market will determine if there will be a sedan and coupe market.   If North Americans wont buy a sedan or coupe, then there is no sedan or coupe to be produced.  

 

Bingo... ..the average consumers don't want cars anymore, only CUVs.. I miss sedans and coupes, but that is a very minority viewpoint in today's marketplace of generic consumers and gray/white/black CUVs.

(Of course I'm being hypocritical with a black SUV and a gray CUV in my garage, and 3 vintage coupes I don' t drive...but that will change in time). 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall I get both of your points your making, I think for some auto companies or at least certain brands, we will still see cars, just in limited numbers. At least we have Hyundai/Kia doing EV cars as well as Cadillac from what they have stated is coming and of course VW. So I think for those that want a car, there will be options, probably AWD car options.