Mercedez Benz News Mercedes-Benz USA Announces Pricing and Packaging Options for All-New EQS SUV

[G. David Felt]

20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

YTD Kia has sold 17,000 EV6,

Tesla has sold 163,000 Model Y. 

Yes, let's compare this to your BOMB of an EQB.

Mercedes-Benz EQB China auto sales figures (carsalesbase.com)

EQB - Sold 473 in all of China for 2021

EQB - Sold 3,629 YTD in all of China for 2022

Tesla posts record numbers in China by selling 70,602 vehicles locally in Dec 2021 (teslarati.com)

Tesla sold 319,102 units in all of China for 2021

Tesla sold 83,135 in September 2022 alone: Tesla sells record China-made vehicles in September following Shanghai factory upgrade (cnbc.com)

To base it on Facts, MERCEDES is FAILING to build desirable EVs. The numbers of NEGATIVE Sales rates for 2022 is terrible.

Mercedes-Benz Almost Doubled All-Electric Car Sales In Q2 2022 (insideevs.com)

So before you say KIA and HYUNDAI cannot compete in the EV space, I would first be asking why MB is FAILING to deliver desirable auto's to the masses. KIA and HYUNDAI are on track to far outsell Mercedes.

[smk4565]

20 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

They now have five different trims of the Telluride in SX term and ALL are above $50K now, which means they are selling plenty at that price hence the aging of more trims in that price range. 

 

The rest of your sidesteps your assertion that somehow Hyundai and Kia can't sell cars in that price when they clearly can. What Tesla does is 100% irrelevant to your claim about Kia and Hyundai so bringing them up was pretty pointless IMO.

But the Telluride is 2 size classes bigger than an EV6.  When the EV9 or whatever their 3 row SUV is, what will that cost?  $75,000?   I have a hard time believing there is demand for $75,000 Hyundai and Kia SUVs.  Now if they can slash the price of their EV's then different story.  But that Ioniq 6 is their Sonata replacement, but it is going to cost $20,000 more than a Sonata.  I don't see how they get someone trading in their Sonata to all of a sudden pay $20k more to guy a new car, and I don't see people that drive a BMW 5-Series saying, I think I'll spend 5-series money on a Hyundai.

I get that Hyundai has been on a roll with good products the past 10 years.  But I think they are getting the benefit of the doubt.  If GM said their EV plan was an Equinox EV in the $40-60k range, an EV Malibu in the $50-70k range and an EV Traverse for $75-90k (all with no tax credits and limited availability) and they are going to kill off all their ICE cars, people would say Chevrolet is doomed.

[G. David Felt]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But the Telluride is 2 size classes bigger than an EV6.  When the EV9 or whatever their 3 row SUV is, what will that cost?  $75,000?   I have a hard time believing there is demand for $75,000 Hyundai and Kia SUVs.  Now if they can slash the price of their EV's then different story.  But that Ioniq 6 is their Sonata replacement, but it is going to cost $20,000 more than a Sonata.  I don't see how they get someone trading in their Sonata to all of a sudden pay $20k more to guy a new car, and I don't see people that drive a BMW 5-Series saying, I think I'll spend 5-series money on a Hyundai.

I get that Hyundai has been on a roll with good products the past 10 years.  But I think they are getting the benefit of the doubt.  If GM said their EV plan was an Equinox EV in the $40-60k range, an EV Malibu in the $50-70k range and an EV Traverse for $75-90k (all with no tax credits and limited availability) and they are going to kill off all their ICE cars, people would say Chevrolet is doomed.

If Chevrolet can sell $100,000 SUVs, why can't Kia or Hyundai?

Bigger question is where is the equal Mercedes to what GM has that is selling?

Mercedes is failing big time to compete with Tesla.

They are sure failing big time to compete with Toyota, Ford or Chevrolet in the Full size Trucks and SUVs as well as Mid size Trucks.. 

So before you attack the Korean's, maybe you should be asking the bigger question. 

WHY DOES MERCEDES FAIL IN COMPETEING IN ALL THE OTHER CLASSES?

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, David said:

If Chevrolet can sell $100,000 SUVs, why can't Kia or Hyundai?

Bigger question is where is the equal Mercedes to what GM has that is selling?

Mercedes is failing big time to compete with Tesla.

They are sure failing big time to compete with Toyota, Ford or Chevrolet in the Full size Trucks and SUVs as well as Mid size Trucks.. 

So before you attack the Korean's, maybe you should be asking the bigger question. 

WHY DOES MERCEDES FAIL IN COMPETEING IN ALL THE OTHER CLASSES?

Chevrolet doesn't really sell a $100k SUV, but Hyundai can sell whatever they want.  Anyone can sell $100k cars but there isn't any volume there, customers can barely afford cars now.  The Ioniq 5 doesn't have volume, making higher priced Hyundais and Kias isn't a path to growth.  

Mercedes is doing just fine, through Q2 the EQS was the #2 selling large luxury car only behind the S-class the Q3 numbers aren't out yet.  And they'll have EQE sedan and SUV in the next few months hitting dealers.  Assuming they they price parity (or at least close) with the next gen batteries coming in the 2025 time frame they'll basically be able to merge into all EV by 2030 for C-class and up at least.  Because the current S-class runs through 2027 model year, the C-class through 2028 and next E-class 2024-2030.  Sort of lines up perfectly to make each generation the last ICE and make the replacement generation EV.  And they arrive at 2030 with the same lineup they have today at the same price points and market segments as today, just electric and not ICE.

And Mercedes doesn't make trucks, they make luxury vehicles, they aren't trying to compete with Toyota or GM.  And I would say that Tesla doesn't make luxury cars either.

Hyundai/Kia are not doing this, they are adding EV's in segments they aren't in, not preparing to convert Tucson, Santa Fe and Palisade to electric, that might not be 15-20 years depending on how fast this EV switch happens, which personally I think once battery cost drops and supply goes up, I think flood gates open and the switch to EV goes fast.

Edited October 10, 2022 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And Mercedes doesn't make trucks, they make luxury vehicles, they aren't trying to compete with Toyota or GM.  And I would say that Tesla doesn't make luxury cars either.

Really? Guess their vans didn't get that particular message lol.

 

Just more "Mercedes this" and "Mercedes that" fan talk that ignores the valid criticisms and deflects to nothing more than paid advertising speak. Seriously. 

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And they arrive at 2030 with the same lineup they have today at the same price points and market segments as today, just electric and not ICE.

If you say so.

 

Current GLB starting price-$39,800

EV equivalent EQB-$52,400

 

But you think it will have the SAME price points eight years from now. Best of luck with whatever has you thinking that.

[surreal1272]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I have a hard time believing there is demand for $75,000 Hyundai and Kia SUVs.

Shock of the year there from the Mercedes fan who ignores the price bumps from his own favorite brand. Keep thinking they can't lol. They have been proving folks wrong (for the most part) with every passing decade despite comments like yours. They are not worried about those comments, clearly. 

[G. David Felt]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Chevrolet doesn't really sell a $100k SUV, but Hyundai can sell whatever they want.  Anyone can sell $100k cars but there isn't any volume there, customers can barely afford cars now.  The Ioniq 5 doesn't have volume, making higher priced Hyundais and Kias isn't a path to growth.  

Mercedes is doing just fine, through Q2 the EQS was the #2 selling large luxury car only behind the S-class the Q3 numbers aren't out yet.  And they'll have EQE sedan and SUV in the next few months hitting dealers.  Assuming they they price parity (or at least close) with the next gen batteries coming in the 2025 time frame they'll basically be able to merge into all EV by 2030 for C-class and up at least.  Because the current S-class runs through 2027 model year, the C-class through 2028 and next E-class 2024-2030.  Sort of lines up perfectly to make each generation the last ICE and make the replacement generation EV.  And they arrive at 2030 with the same lineup they have today at the same price points and market segments as today, just electric and not ICE.

And Mercedes doesn't make trucks, they make luxury vehicles, they aren't trying to compete with Toyota or GM.  And I would say that Tesla doesn't make luxury cars either.

Hyundai/Kia are not doing this, they are adding EV's in segments they aren't in, not preparing to convert Tucson, Santa Fe and Palisade to electric, that might not be 15-20 years depending on how fast this EV switch happens, which personally I think once battery cost drops and supply goes up, I think flood gates open and the switch to EV goes fast.

Yes, Chevrolet does when you take into account that the High-Country Suburban is a $92,000 SUV and with local markups due to shortages, they are selling for $100,000. Funny that you say there is no volume there and yet you pretty much have stated that all luxury makers have to have 6 figure autos' to be luxury.

IONIQ 5 does have volume, more so than any of the EQ brands from Mercedes. So, you are WRONG there, try the excuses again for your fan boy brand that has not delivered yet.

Continue to delude yourself with Mercedes is doing fine. They are FAILING in China the biggest market in the world with pathetic EV product that cannot compete with Tesla. I proved that Tesla with just the Y and 3 being built in China are out selling Mercedes big time.

Continue to be a horse with blinders on when the fact is Mercedes your hoping will be able to go all EV by 2030 and Genesis alone will be all EV by 2025. Kia and Hyundai are delivering more EVs per year for both new models and existing sales than Mercedes is.

Mercedes makes trucks, just FAILURE at it. They tried to badge engineer a Japanese truck and failed. They build Meh vans that are part of the truck division as is all their SUVs part of the truck division so they can avoid the MPG issues with having the SUVs listed as cars.

Remember the X-Class Pickup

Badge engineered of the Nissan NP300 Navara

Mercedes FAILED in putting body pieces on a mass market truck where Mercedes took the bulk of the truck, powertrain, cabin interior and either put badges over the place of the Nissan or just changed a few parts to give it a somewhat look of Mercedes. Customers realized there was no luxury, no Mercedes and worse yet, it was a Renault platform, far from being a Mercedes.

Kinda like how the Supra failed when the fans learned it was not a Toyota built car, but a BMW built car with Toyota sheet metal on the front and back. Sales fell flat and it is a dead product just like the X-Class is a dead failed product.

Hyundai/Kia is smart in knowing they will have those that will never go EV till they have no choice and as such have chosen to keep their ICE line up as is. But then they are smart as they have built an EV lineup for both Kia and Hyundai that are attractive, desirable and show it in sales to the public.

Genesis is the only place they are keeping the same names but also going pure EV by 2025 so having a GV70 and GV70 electric, from a marketing standpoint one can see when they do convert fully, they can just drop the electric and stick with GV70.

End result is Mercedes is Following the market and is slow to change and adapt after their huge failure with Diesel gate.

[G. David Felt]

Interesting observation that I just learned. Due to parts shortages, Kia and Hyundai are not selling their EV in every state yet in the U.S.

The top dozen or so states and those dealerships that have committed to EVs are pretty much getting the bulk for 2022. As capacity comes online Kia and Hyundai will expand selling their EVs across every state.

Yet as @smk4565 has stated they have only sold roughly 38,000 EVs YTD compared to Tesla which is hundreds of thousands. 

Yet Mercedes has not been able to state any of these awards for their EVs and YTD, based on Mercedes own reporting they have only sold 4,048 EQS through the end of Q2 2022.

Mercedes-Benz USA Sales - Q2 2022 (mbusa.com)

Mercedes EV sales = 4,048 through June. Kia/Hyundai Sales of 38,000

? Who is making sellable products?

[smk4565]

59 minutes ago, David said:

Interesting observation that I just learned. Due to parts shortages, Kia and Hyundai are not selling their EV in every state yet in the U.S.

The top dozen or so states and those dealerships that have committed to EVs are pretty much getting the bulk for 2022. As capacity comes online Kia and Hyundai will expand selling their EVs across every state.

Yet as @smk4565 has stated they have only sold roughly 38,000 EVs YTD compared to Tesla which is hundreds of thousands. 

Yet Mercedes has not been able to state any of these awards for their EVs and YTD, based on Mercedes own reporting they have only sold 4,048 EQS through the end of Q2 2022.

Mercedes-Benz USA Sales - Q2 2022 (mbusa.com)

Mercedes EV sales = 4,048 through June. Kia/Hyundai Sales of 38,000

? Who is making sellable products?

I doesn’t matter how good the Ioniq 5 is if they can’t produce them.   Same goes for Rivian and Lucid, if you can’t build the cars you can’t make money.  
 

The EQS is the #2 selling large luxury car ICE or gas, only because Mercedes also makes the #1 selling large luxury sedan.  The Ioniq 5 is not the #2 selling small crossover.

Mercedes, Porsche, Audi and GM are marketing EVs to current prices in their brands.  I think this group has it right and the others we’ll see where they are in 2030.

Edited October 10, 2022 by smk4565

[G. David Felt]

39 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I doesn’t matter how good the Ioniq 5 is if they can’t produce them.   Same goes for Rivian and Lucid, if you can’t build the cars you can’t make money.  
 

The EQS is the #2 selling large luxury car ICE or gas, only because Mercedes also makes the #1 selling large luxury sedan.  The Ioniq 5 is not the #2 selling small crossover.

Mercedes, Porsche, Audi and GM are marketing EVs to current prices in their brands.  I think this group has it right and the others we’ll see where they are in 2030.

#2 selling? What a Joke when it is only averaging 674.666 EQS per month. So what is Mercedes Excuse for not building in large volume to sell more?

Kia and Hyundai are building due to parts constraints still far more than Mercedes is, you cannot blow off 38,000 sales by Kia/Hyundai versus 4,048 sales.

The bulk of society could care less about the 1% market. Mercedes has ignored the rest of the world population while touting Luxury, building Toyota quality bulk C-class crud autos.

Common Sense says Kia/Hyundai is nailing the desires of the market compared to Mercedes.

Kia/Hyundai have also announced that they will be moving EV production to the U.S. next year, so as I have stated in other threads, this is the chicken/egg issue of building up production factories for auto production and Cell Production factories.

We can review this again at the end of the year, but at this point, Mercedes is on track to sell less than 10,000 EVs in the US in 2022 and Kia/Hyundai are on track to sell over 50,000 EVs.

[surreal1272]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I doesn’t matter how good the Ioniq 5 is if they can’t produce them.   Same goes for Rivian and Lucid, if you can’t build the cars you can’t make money.

So which is it? They can’t sell them because they are just little Hyundai or they can’t sell them because they can’t produce enough of them? Pick one and stick with it. 

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The EQS is the #2 selling large luxury car ICE or gas, only because Mercedes also makes the #1 selling large luxury sedan.  The Ioniq 5 is not the #2 selling small crossover.

I thought Hyundai and Benz didn’t compete with each other? You are deflection from raw numbers that show Benz struggling in the EV segment just like you deflected from the valid EQB criticisms. How about putting the fan boy hat down for just a second and giving an actual objective though on this? 

Edited October 10, 2022 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The EQS is the #2 selling large luxury car ICE or gas, only because Mercedes also makes the #1 selling large luxury sedan.  

For the upteenth time, please cite a source for these “claims”. 

[G. David Felt]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The EQS is the #2 selling large luxury car ICE or gas, only because Mercedes also makes the #1 selling large luxury sedan.  The Ioniq 5 is not the #2 selling small crossover.

OK, since you cannot actually site any true sources of saying Mercedes sells the #1 or #2 best luxury sedan, I have done a quick search and the information is very ILLUMINATING!

A walk back in time, 2018 The best selling Luxury auto in the U.S. was Tesla, The GLC was the 5th best selling for Mercedes.

10 Best-Selling Luxury Cars and SUVs in America in 2018 (caranddriver.com)

Now we will jump to current and here is what TrueCar has to say about the Best Selling Luxury auto, Audi A3 is tagged in #1 place and the best Mercedes could do was 20th place with the CLS.

20 Best Luxury Cars for 2022 - TrueCar

Now maybe @smk4565 will point to this one, but unlike the links above based on actual Sales numbers, Forbes does rate the Mercedes S-Class as #1, but #2 is Genesis GV80. Forbes states it is just a notch below the S-Class and far better value. #3 is Volvo S90 and #4 is Mercedes E-Class. In fact Genesis has two autos in the top 10. 

Best Luxury Cars For 2022 - Forbes Wheels

Now if we go by this web site, the Top Luxury autos is even more interesting.

The 10 Best Luxury Cars for 2022 (goodcarbadcar.net)

They even give a chart which I love. Great info as to why these autos are ranked this way taking both sales, quality, customization, etc. into account.

The Might S-Class is ranked 3rd, surprise Genesis in 9th and Cadillac in 10th.

So how does Kia/Hyundai and especially Genesis not build a quality product or luxury?

@surreal1272 This should be interesting to see what he has to say on this!

[surreal1272]

55 minutes ago, David said:

OK, since you cannot actually site any true sources of saying Mercedes sells the #1 or #2 best luxury sedan, I have done a quick search and the information is very ILLUMINATING!

A walk back in time, 2018 The best selling Luxury auto in the U.S. was Tesla, The GLC was the 5th best selling for Mercedes.

10 Best-Selling Luxury Cars and SUVs in America in 2018 (caranddriver.com)

Now we will jump to current and here is what TrueCar has to say about the Best Selling Luxury auto, Audi A3 is tagged in #1 place and the best Mercedes could do was 20th place with the CLS.

20 Best Luxury Cars for 2022 - TrueCar

Now maybe @smk4565 will point to this one, but unlike the links above based on actual Sales numbers, Forbes does rate the Mercedes S-Class as #1, but #2 is Genesis GV80. Forbes states it is just a notch below the S-Class and far better value. #3 is Volvo S90 and #4 is Mercedes E-Class. In fact Genesis has two autos in the top 10. 

Best Luxury Cars For 2022 - Forbes Wheels

Now if we go by this web site, the Top Luxury autos is even more interesting.

The 10 Best Luxury Cars for 2022 (goodcarbadcar.net)

They even give a chart which I love. Great info as to why these autos are ranked this way taking both sales, quality, customization, etc. into account.

The Might S-Class is ranked 3rd, surprise Genesis in 9th and Cadillac in 10th.

So how does Kia/Hyundai and especially Genesis not build a quality product or luxury?

@surreal1272 This should be interesting to see what he has to say on this!

Won't be interesting, in the least. It will, however, be 100% predictable. Step aside folks. Moving goalposts coming through!

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, David said:

#2 selling? What a Joke when it is only averaging 674.666 EQS per month. So what is Mercedes Excuse for not building in large volume to sell more?

Kia and Hyundai are building due to parts constraints still far more than Mercedes is, you cannot blow off 38,000 sales by Kia/Hyundai versus 4,048 sales.

The bulk of society could care less about the 1% market. Mercedes has ignored the rest of the world population while touting Luxury, building Toyota quality bulk C-class crud autos.

Common Sense says Kia/Hyundai is nailing the desires of the market compared to Mercedes.

Kia/Hyundai have also announced that they will be moving EV production to the U.S. next year, so as I have stated in other threads, this is the chicken/egg issue of building up production factories for auto production and Cell Production factories.

We can review this again at the end of the year, but at this point, Mercedes is on track to sell less than 10,000 EVs in the US in 2022 and Kia/Hyundai are on track to sell over 50,000 EVs.

You are trying to compare a mass market company vs a luxury brand that does less volume.  The EQS outsold the Genesis G90, the BMW 7-Series, Audi A8, Lexus LS in the first half the of the year, their Q3 numbers aren't released yet, as I just checked.    The EQS is doing well if it is beating its gasoline counterparts.

Also I am looking more 5 years out.  In 5 years time if an Ioniq 5 is $10k more than an Equinox EV how does that work for Hyundai?  The bulk of Hyundai's customers buy Elantras and Tucsons that are sub $30,000.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

OK, since you cannot actually site any true sources of saying Mercedes sells the #1 or #2 best luxury sedan, I have done a quick search and the information is very ILLUMINATING!

A walk back in time, 2018 The best selling Luxury auto in the U.S. was Tesla, The GLC was the 5th best selling for Mercedes.

10 Best-Selling Luxury Cars and SUVs in America in 2018 (caranddriver.com)

Now we will jump to current and here is what TrueCar has to say about the Best Selling Luxury auto, Audi A3 is tagged in #1 place and the best Mercedes could do was 20th place with the CLS.

20 Best Luxury Cars for 2022 - TrueCar

Now maybe @smk4565 will point to this one, but unlike the links above based on actual Sales numbers, Forbes does rate the Mercedes S-Class as #1, but #2 is Genesis GV80. Forbes states it is just a notch below the S-Class and far better value. #3 is Volvo S90 and #4 is Mercedes E-Class. In fact Genesis has two autos in the top 10. 

Best Luxury Cars For 2022 - Forbes Wheels

Now if we go by this web site, the Top Luxury autos is even more interesting.

The 10 Best Luxury Cars for 2022 (goodcarbadcar.net)

They even give a chart which I love. Great info as to why these autos are ranked this way taking both sales, quality, customization, etc. into account.

The Might S-Class is ranked 3rd, surprise Genesis in 9th and Cadillac in 10th.

So how does Kia/Hyundai and especially Genesis not build a quality product or luxury?

@surreal1272 This should be interesting to see what he has to say on this!

Full size luxury car I said.  That would be the S-class, EQS, 7-series, A8, Lexus LS, Jaguar XJ (which I think is discontinued now), Genesis G90, maybe you could throw the Panamera in there, but that isn't really a full size car.  The Taycan and Model S are not full size cars.  Bentley Flying Spur and Rolls Royces obviously are full size too.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

You are trying to compare a mass market company vs a luxury brand that does less volume.

Umm, you started it.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Full size luxury car I said.

Yet, you still haven't supplied that source link because...

Edited October 11, 2022 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

13 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Umm, you started it.

Yet, you still haven't supplied that source link because...

Q3 Mercedes sales are out for YTD:

S-class 11,376

EQS sedan 5,749

BMW 7-Series 3,905

Lexus LS 1,989

Audi A8 1,025

Genesis G90 786

I’d say the EQS is doing just fine, it’s beating Lexus, Genesis and Audi combined. 

[surreal1272]

43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Q3 Mercedes sales are out for YTD:

S-class 11,376

EQS sedan 5,749

BMW 7-Series 3,905

Lexus LS 1,989

Audi A8 1,025

Genesis G90 786

I’d say the EQS is doing just fine, it’s beating Lexus, Genesis and Audi combined. 

And I'd say that you are comparing gas powered apples to EV powered oranges, never mind the obvious cherry picking but since you want to go there...

 

...for the thousandth time, the Tesla Model S is classified as FULL SIZE/Executive Luxury car and IS DIRECT COMPETITOR TO THE S-CLASS, no matter how many times you talk about exterior dimensions between it and the S-Class, thus outselling the EQS and S-Class combined. Furthermore, your claims about volume and luxury clearly did not get sent to Tesla as they seem to be doing both, selling luxury and in volume.

 

Maybe you should just consider putting wheels on that goalpost next time. Would save a whole lot of work, what it moving it around so much. 

[G. David Felt]

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Q3 Mercedes sales are out for YTD:

S-class 11,376

EQS sedan 5,749

BMW 7-Series 3,905

Lexus LS 1,989

Audi A8 1,025

Genesis G90 786

I’d say the EQS is doing just fine, it’s beating Lexus, Genesis and Audi combined. 

Thank you for sharing this information, it gives more credibility if you also input the actual link to the facts, you have pulled together.

Let me remind you that you have compared Mercedes to many brands here and in comparing them to Kia/Hyundai, or any other brand that makes them fair game for comparing to all brands.

As such, Mercedes is trying to compete not as only a luxury brand but as a mass auto company with their A, B and Especially the poor C-Class of cars.

This is reinforced by the fact that they have their truck division with selling commercial Vans and family Vans right alongside the A to S-Class of autos.

Then they continue to try to compete against everyone in the mass auto market as they have A to S class SUV/CUVs on the market globally.

Luxury is a brand that only is in a narrow niche and exclusive. Mass market is where you cover all levels of playing.

There is actually 3 tiers in the Luxury market according to the industry.

• Accessible Luxury - Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Lincoln, Genesis, etc.
• Intermediary Luxury - Some of the same auto companies play here due to the luxury product is very exclusive and limited availability. In fact even Chevrolet and Toyota has played in this market with special limited releases of products.
• Inaccessible Luxury

INACCESSIBLE LUXURY - This level is the most exclusive form of luxury. It is highly rare, very expensive, and accessible only by a handful of people. These products, mostly, are hand-crafted or tailored products. They make use of some of the most expensive and premium materials. These Inaccessible Luxury products are distributed through a few carefully selected channels. An Inaccessible Luxury product is all about exclusivity, heritage, craftsmanship, creativity and prestige. A few of the most popular Inaccessible Luxury products are Dior, Ferrari and Hermes as just a few examples.

What Type Of Luxury Products Are You Offering - Agence Luxury

Based on this, the S-Class is basic Accessible Luxury and Mercedes then plays in the Intermediary Luxury and plays allot in the markets below Luxury.

An example of this is how the S-Class and EQS both have their expensive top of the line dash now also available in the E-Class and EQE lines and Mercedes has stated as costs come down they will push it down stream into additional models.

As such, Mercedes Plays in the Mass Auto Market.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

And I'd say that you are comparing gas powered apples to EV powered oranges, never mind the obvious cherry picking but since you want to go there...

 

...for the thousandth time, the Tesla Model S is classified as FULL SIZE/Executive Luxury car and IS DIRECT COMPETITOR TO THE S-CLASS, no matter how many times you talk about exterior dimensions between it and the S-Class, thus outselling the EQS and S-Class combined. Furthermore, your claims about volume and luxury clearly did not get sent to Tesla as they seem to be doing both, selling luxury and in volume.

 

Maybe you should just consider putting wheels on that goalpost next time. Would save a whole lot of work, what it moving it around so much. 

I said full size luxury car, of which the EQS is the #2 seller.  It does tremendous volume for the segment it is in.

And I am comparing ICE and EV because a sale is a sale.  If Toyota sells 10 million cars a year and Rivian sells 50,000, I don’t want to hear about how Rivian is beating Toyota because they sold more EV’s this year.

The EQE is about 1-2 inches shorter than a Model S, the EQS is like 10 inches longer.  The EQE is Mercedes’ Model S competitor, the EQC sedan will be the Model 3 competitor when it gets here.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

Thank you for sharing this information, it gives more credibility if you also input the actual link to the facts, you have pulled together.

Let me remind you that you have compared Mercedes to many brands here and in comparing them to Kia/Hyundai, or any other brand that makes them fair game for comparing to all brands.

As such, Mercedes is trying to compete not as only a luxury brand but as a mass auto company with their A, B and Especially the poor C-Class of cars.

This is reinforced by the fact that they have their truck division with selling commercial Vans and family Vans right alongside the A to S-Class of autos.

Then they continue to try to compete against everyone in the mass auto market as they have A to S class SUV/CUVs on the market globally.

Luxury is a brand that only is in a narrow niche and exclusive. Mass market is where you cover all levels of playing.

There is actually 3 tiers in the Luxury market according to the industry.

• Accessible Luxury - Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, Lincoln, Genesis, etc.
• Intermediary Luxury - Some of the same auto companies play here due to the luxury product is very exclusive and limited availability. In fact even Chevrolet and Toyota has played in this market with special limited releases of products.
• Inaccessible Luxury

INACCESSIBLE LUXURY - This level is the most exclusive form of luxury. It is highly rare, very expensive, and accessible only by a handful of people. These products, mostly, are hand-crafted or tailored products. They make use of some of the most expensive and premium materials. These Inaccessible Luxury products are distributed through a few carefully selected channels. An Inaccessible Luxury product is all about exclusivity, heritage, craftsmanship, creativity and prestige. A few of the most popular Inaccessible Luxury products are Dior, Ferrari and Hermes as just a few examples.

What Type Of Luxury Products Are You Offering - Agence Luxury

Based on this, the S-Class is basic Accessible Luxury and Mercedes then plays in the Intermediary Luxury and plays allot in the markets below Luxury.

An example of this is how the S-Class and EQS both have their expensive top of the line dash now also available in the E-Class and EQE lines and Mercedes has stated as costs come down they will push it down stream into additional models.

As such, Mercedes Plays in the Mass Auto Market.

I don’t know how “accessible” the S-class is when the base model is over $110,000 and the Maybach is $200,000+.  I would guess that 95% of Americans can’t afford a $140,000 car.
 

Which sort of goes to my original point, Mercedes has a customer base that will spend $140k on a sedan or $200k on a G-wagon.  So they can make these expensive EV’s and not have a problem.  Their challenge will be can they make an A class level EV that isn’t E-class pricing.   
 

I brought up the Hyundai/Kia because their small crossover EV’s are like $50k and the Sportage and Tucson are like $30k.  If Hyundai kills off their ICE cars that’s a big leap for their customer base to take.

[surreal1272]

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Which sort of goes to my original point, Mercedes has a customer base that will spend $140k on a sedan or $200k on a G-wagon.  So they can make these expensive EV’s and not have a problem.  Their challenge will be can they make an A class level EV that isn’t E-class pricing.

They cater to a much larger sub-$50K audience (by a LOOOONG shot). Think about that before saying they are only playing one card here. You pretty much made @David 's point about volume.

[G. David Felt]

@smk4565 You already know as you can as well as I can if I wanted to waste any more time post the sales volume of Mercedes-Benz auto's by model from their own reporting page and it shows that MB makes the bulk of their sales and money from the low to middle class of auto sales and as has been posted way too many times, the E-Class Taxis sales across Europe and Asia. 

As such, Mercedes is a mass auto company that makes some money off selling a luxury product in small quantities and bulk off of mass low to mid level products.

They are not a dedicated Luxury only Auto maker. 

END OF LINE!

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

They cater to a much larger sub-$50K audience (by a LOOOONG shot). Think about that before saying they are only playing one card here. You pretty much made @David 's point about volume.

Cater to sub $50k, how so?  Here is their sales chart, the S-class is outselling A-class and CLA combined this year.  The GLS is outselling the GLB.  Their 2 best sellers are GLC and GLE.  And a GLC300 4Matic starts at $46k before destination, so with 1 option package those are basically all $50k or more.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, David said:

@smk4565 You already know as you can as well as I can if I wanted to waste any more time post the sales volume of Mercedes-Benz auto's by model from their own reporting page and it shows that MB makes the bulk of their sales and money from the low to middle class of auto sales and as has been posted way too many times, the E-Class Taxis sales across Europe and Asia. 

As such, Mercedes is a mass auto company that makes some money off selling a luxury product in small quantities and bulk off of mass low to mid level products.

They are not a dedicated Luxury only Auto maker. 

END OF LINE!

And who is a dedicated luxury brand?  Bentley and Rolls-Royce?  

Also Mercedes having a full line is smart business, they can compete with Acura and Volvo at one end and Bentley and Porsche at the other. 

[G. David Felt]

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And who is a dedicated luxury brand?  Bentley and Rolls-Royce?  

Also Mercedes having a full line is smart business, they can compete with Acura and Volvo at one end and Bentley and Porsche at the other. 

Yes, the are a full auto company, not a luxury only auto company. They compete in all Segments.

With the Avereage transaction price of $72,100 for all of 2021 for SUVs/Crossovers. Mercedes is not just a luxury auto company, but a mass market company with their two best products right in the middle competing with everyone else.

U.S.: Average new vehicle price by vehicle type | Statista

Full Chart shows that Mercedes is a mass market auto company. Welcome to the New Generation.

[smk4565]

49 minutes ago, David said:

Yes, the are a full auto company, not a luxury only auto company. They compete in all Segments.

With the Avereage transaction price of $72,100 for all of 2021 for SUVs/Crossovers. Mercedes is not just a luxury auto company, but a mass market company with their two best products right in the middle competing with everyone else.

U.S.: Average new vehicle price by vehicle type | Statista

Full Chart shows that Mercedes is a mass market auto company. Welcome to the New Generation.

Full size crossover/SUV is $72,000.  Compact crossover is $33,000 and that is the #1 selling segment by far. 

[surreal1272]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Cater to sub $50k, how so?  Here is their sales chart, the S-class is outselling A-class and CLA combined this year.  The GLS is outselling the GLB.  Their 2 best sellers are GLC and GLE.  And a GLC300 4Matic starts at $46k before destination, so with 1 option package those are basically all $50k or more.

Funny how you circled some and not others. The C-Class, GLB, and GLC all start under $50 (with the GLB AND GLC starting under $40K) and those are three of MBs biggest sellers right there so thanks for proving my point yet again. You can't sit here and claim they are an all encompassing brand and then selectively ignore the models responsible for the bulk of their sales, which clearly show as many under $50K as there are over $50K.

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And who is a dedicated luxury brand?  Bentley and Rolls-Royce?  

I believe you just answered your own question. 

[G. David Felt]

@surreal1272 This whole thread has clearly shown the fear of those that want to believe lies rather than facts and truth. A major problem we have in America.

It is going to be interesting to see how people respond to the expanded GM business model of auto sales, Ultium Home, Ultium Commercial and Ultium Charge 360. 

If anything, GM has a better marketing story as they give a complete solution than to anything Europe or Asia currently has. The only other company to offer complete solutions is Tesla and yet they have not done one thing that is an interesting observation is the V2G and V2H which only Kia and Hyundai have included in their EVs. 

None of that tech is found in Mercedes, BMW or Audi products let alone the rest of the European autos.

GM is truly leading the move to the future of Technology, Autos and power management.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Funny how you circled some and not others. The C-Class, GLB, and GLC all start under $50 (with the GLB AND GLC starting under $40K) and those are three of MBs biggest sellers right there so thanks for proving my point yet again. You can't sit here and claim they are an all encompassing brand and then selectively ignore the models responsible for the bulk of their sales, which clearly show as many under $50K as there are over $50K.

I believe you just answered your own question. 

5 of 6 Cadillacs and every Acura but the NSX start under $50k.  
 

The GLC starts at about $45k.  Mercedes themselves sees their brand in 3 segments, I forgot the names but entry are the front drive platform A-B classes, Core is the C and E classes and top group is anything with a S, G-Class, GT.

Obviously the bulk of the sales come from the middle.  The notion that Mercedes relies on low end cars to make money is false when the S-class outsells the A-class and CLA and costs 4 times more.  The S makes 4 times more revenue than the front drive cars.

[smk4565]

59 minutes ago, David said:

@surreal1272 This whole thread has clearly shown the fear of those that want to believe lies rather than facts and truth. A major problem we have in America.

It is going to be interesting to see how people respond to the expanded GM business model of auto sales, Ultium Home, Ultium Commercial and Ultium Charge 360. 

If anything, GM has a better marketing story as they give a complete solution than to anything Europe or Asia currently has. The only other company to offer complete solutions is Tesla and yet they have not done one thing that is an interesting observation is the V2G and V2H which only Kia and Hyundai have included in their EVs. 

None of that tech is found in Mercedes, BMW or Audi products let alone the rest of the European autos.

GM is truly leading the move to the future of Technology, Autos and power management.

I think the switch to EV will be more like a tidal wave rather than a slow transition.  Come 2025 when batteries and infrastructure are better, and there are more options I think EV sales go up fast.

I also think GM is position to capitalize big time because they will have product variety in segments and price points people know.  If Equinox EV starts at $33k that is the average small crossover price, the VW iD4 is $43k, swing and a miss.

If GM gets it right they could be a force.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

5 of 6 Cadillacs and every Acura but the NSX start under $50k.

D-E-F-L-E-C-T-I-O-N

 

 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The notion that Mercedes relies on low end cars to make money is false when the S-class outsells the A-class and CLA and costs 4 times more.

And I'm sure that had ZRO to do with the fact that the CLA (which is one foot in the grave anyway) a A-Class are complete failures. Again, see the C-Class (which starts at $39K) as an example of sub-$50K sales that keep the lights on for Benz. Why else dabble in the sub-$50K pool to begin with if you are "luxury" or the "best or nothing" right?

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

5 of 6 Cadillacs and every Acura but the NSX start under $50k.

The Lyriq and Escalade both start north of $50K so that's a lie as well (and the XT6 sniffs within $10 of $50K here so that base price is location dependent. 

 

Lets not forget @smk4565, I am not denying where Cadillac plays here but this discussion wasn't about whether or not Cadillac sells a bunch of sub-$50K cars. It was whether Benz does and how much they rely upon those sales. See how that works? No deflection. No goalpost moving. Just sticking to the damn subject. Try it sometime. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

D-E-F-L-E-C-T-I-O-N

 

 

And I'm sure that had ZRO to do with the fact that the CLA (which is one foot in the grave anyway) a A-Class are complete failures. Again, see the C-Class (which starts at $39K) as an example of sub-$50K sales that keep the lights on for Benz. Why else dabble in the sub-$50K pool to begin with if you are "luxury" or the "best or nothing" right?

 

C-class starts at $43,550 before destination.

Every luxury brand sells cars under $50k.

Not sure how the CLA can be a total failure and at the same time “the bulk of their sales” and “how Mercedes makes all their money”

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

The Lyriq and Escalade both start north of $50K so that's a lie as well (and the XT6 sniffs within $10 of $50K here so that base price is location dependent. 

 

Lets not forget @smk4565, I am not denying where Cadillac plays here but this discussion wasn't about whether or not Cadillac sells a bunch of sub-$50K cars. It was whether Benz does and how much they rely upon those sales. See how that works? No deflection. No goalpost moving. Just sticking to the damn subject. Try it sometime. 

I forgot the Lyriq so 5 of 7.  
 

I posted Mercedes sales chart, they aren’t relying on A and B class level cars for volume, as the chart shows the S-class, SL, GT, GLS, G-class and EQS all of which start over $100k except GLS, outsell the GLA/B and A/CLA.  They are literally making 4 times more revenue on the range toppers than they are on the entry level.

[G. David Felt]

@smk4565 Per your own Chart that you posted, the bulk of Sales comes from two models, C-Class and GLC.

MSRP starts for C-Class at $44,600 for the GLC $44,900. 

Regardless of other higher-level trims, the starting point shows these are prices to compete with Chevrolet, Toyota, VW, etc. and as such are not a luxury product but a mass market product. This is the Grey area that Mercedes loves to sell in and take ones money but still also be a snob to look at high end models and think it covers the whole product line.

[smk4565]

15 minutes ago, David said:

@smk4565 Per your own Chart that you posted, the bulk of Sales comes from two models, C-Class and GLC.

MSRP starts for C-Class at $44,600 for the GLC $44,900. 

Regardless of other higher-level trims, the starting point shows these are prices to compete with Chevrolet, Toyota, VW, etc. and as such are not a luxury product but a mass market product. This is the Grey area that Mercedes loves to sell in and take ones money but still also be a snob to look at high end models and think it covers the whole product line.

The problem with your comparison is the C-class and GLC size Toyotas are the Corolla and Rav4, which neither of have a base price of $44,000. By your logic, Cadillac, Acura, Lincoln, Acura, Volvo, Genesis, Lexus, BMW, Infiniti are all mass market brands, because they all sell cars under $40,000. 

And the GLE is #2 seller, more than doubling the C-class this year, but the C-class also just had a new model out, I think early in the year not many were available as the ran out the old model inventory and waited for the new one.

Mercedes has 6 model lines with base price over $100,000 (not counting AMG One), all of the Asian and American car companies have a combined 1, the Acura NSX.  If you want to talk about who makes high end cars and who doesn't.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The problem with your comparison is the C-class and GLC size Toyotas are the Corolla and Rav4, which neither of have a base price of $44,000. By your logic, Cadillac, Acura, Lincoln, Acura, Volvo, Genesis, Lexus, BMW, Infiniti are all mass market brands, because they all sell cars under $40,000. 

And the GLE is #2 seller, more than doubling the C-class this year, but the C-class also just had a new model out, I think early in the year not many were available as the ran out the old model inventory and waited for the new one.

Mercedes has 6 model lines with base price over $100,000 (not counting AMG One), all of the Asian and American car companies have a combined 1, the Acura NSX.  If you want to talk about who makes high end cars and who doesn't.

You still do not get it, any auto selling in the car space with a starting MSRP $44,600 is a competitor to the C-Class.

Any SUV/CUV that starts at $44,900 is a competitor to the GLC.

STOP, JUST STOP trying to move everything to fit your narrative and open your eyes to the fact that auto companies are no longer playing the game of:

"This Size is SubCompact, This Size is Compact, This Size is Mid-Size and This Size is Full Size."

Every auto company is trying to offer what they believe is the right size for each category of auto and the sizes are all over now.

Mercedes plays in the mass market space and in the luxury space as well as the commercial space all under one name unlike other auto companies.

END OF LINE!