NG GMT 360 Shelved

[Camino LS6]

These vehicles along with Colrado/Canyon were lousy replacements for the S10 platform. The sizing was a mistake (following a now dead trend), and the diminished capabilities of the Colorado vs. the S10 doomed it from the start. An S10-sized replacement using the no-nonsense formula of the original Nissan Xterra is where I see compact, affordable, BOF suvs making sense.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

That's their problem. Everyone thinks it's no more than a minor refresh when in fact it's been pretty heavily revised. At least that's the theory.

That's because none of Ford's 'refreshes' are even remotely convincing as having all-new changes. I agree these trucks need new interiors, especially the TrailBlazer, and the others that are not TrailBlazer and Envoy need to die. This is a different market today-trucks can no longer run 20 years without an actually convincing-looking update-not even 10, as changed by the 1994 Dodge Ram. And the S-10 Blazer/Jimmy/Bravada were all trash in retrospect, vastly behind their competitors, and unsafe to boot (i.e. have you sat in the back seat of a 5-door 1995-96 Blazer? The backrest doesn't even go to my lower neck-and I'M ONLY 5'4!!!!) Colorado's still a compact truck no matter how you look at it. Its smaller than Dakota and Tacoma, both of which are actually mid-size, and unlike Colorado/Canyon/i-Series (anyone seen any of those?), they're at least half-decent trucks. In other words, too small for TrailBlazer/Envoy in their current form, IMO. Then again...maybe not....who knows?

[ichbinjohnk]

As a note for the NG Colorado/Canyon---specifically the Colorado---LOWER THE PRICE!!! Only the "loaded" models should be touching the $20,000 point. It's a small pick-up for people who don't necessarily have the need/desire for all that a full-sizer has to offer...

[jackdev73]

THE NEW EXPLORER INTERIOR IS GARBAGE

THE NEW GRILLE IS GARBAGE

THE SHAPE IS THE SAME

THE GAS MILEAGE IS GARBAGE

THE ENGINES ARE MEDIOCRE

IT PROBABLY STILL ROLLS OVER

GARBAGE

GARBAGE

GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could you be more specific?

[Darc Requiem]

With gas prices high, doubt that any truck based SUV is going to 'take off'. The Pathfinder and 4 runner are so high priced, the Tahoe pretty much competes with them now.

You are missing my point. If GM leaves the market their will be less competitors for the Pathfinder and 4Runner. GM would be giving a competitor more market share by default. Just like the they did when they canned the Camaro. You don't concede a market, it is bad business. Ford and GM sell the most in this market. Conceding markets is part of the reason that the Big 3 got in trouble in the first place.

The Mid-size BOF SUV is most likely going to become more of a niche market. As an example, a 200k a year vehicle may only become a 100k a year vehicle. So the market would become less profitable. By not fielding a vehicle in the market at all you would not only lose all of your sales, but you would concede the sales you would have retained to a competitor. Since when is handing a market ,and the revenue that goes along with it, a good business practice?

[thegriffon]

One problem with the 360s is they are not lhd, nor well-suited to international markets. Toyota has several midsize SUVs sold in various markets, the cheap Hilux-based Fortuner, the 4Runner and the LandCruiser 120 (GX470). GM could well do with two, based on the NG small/medium truck platform—the NG H3 to compete with the Landcruiser and Grand Cherokee, and a Chevrolet to compete with the 4Runner and Fortuner. It's probable GM will do both, but whether the Chevrolet is offered anywhere other than certain international markets such as South America and Asia is far less certain. Asian markets will almost certainly get a replacement for the Tavera, an MPV-like, truck-based crossover.

[sciguy_0504]

Midsize BOF SUV sales are not tanking. When gas was cheap and buying such a car was the new thing their sales were artificially high. Now they are going back down to a normal level. People who either really want one or need to have one will buy one. Others will buy something else.

[Brandon Lutz]

These vehicles along with Colrado/Canyon were lousy replacements for the S10 platform.

I concur. After test driving a Colorado and getting back into my S-10, I decided to stay in my 03 S-10. Lack of torque, a worse interior IMHO than my S-10 kept me from buying a Colorado or Canyon.

I'll take a ZR2 S-10 or ZR5 Crew Cab S-10 any day over the Colorado offerings. I also would choose a 4x4 2 door S-10 Blazer over the TB.

[ehaase]

An S10-sized replacement using the no-nonsense formula of the original Nissan Xterra is where I see compact, affordable, BOF suvs making sense.

That makes a lot of sense.

[SimonDavid]

If GM really is global now....

What about shipping the tooling out to that south african plant that already build the H3, and building the GMT360 there indefinitely, with cheap labour, for international developing markets?

[deftonesfan867]

H3T H3T H3T H3T H3T Just build it............NOW!

[haypops]

Don't bastardize something unless you've had experience with it.

You are right in as much as I haven't driven the new Explorers but my point isn't that they are not good cars. My point is that Ford spent a lot of money (what is a lot?) and may sales were 16,700 for the Explorer and 3600 for the Mountaineer (total ca. 20,300). May sales for the Trailblazer plus Envoy were 15,500 + 6000 = 21500 sales. I can see why GM would not be anxious to spend too much money here when it did so little for Ford sales.

[hyperv6]

True it looks the same, but Ford was spent WAY more money updating the Explorer than GM has with the GMT-360.

Whether it pays off for them eventually or not is another question.

We haven't seen ANY significant changes on ANY version of the GMT-360 other than a VERY minor facelift.  No significant chassis improvements, no major powertrain improvements, and obviously no interior upgrades.

The 360 has got nothing to do with the fact that even with the major imporvments the new Ford looks much like the last and the the one before it.

My point is if your going to improve a vehicle you had best give it a fresh look too. Many in the general public will not give it a look because it looks old. Enthusitast know it is improved but that soccer mom that is always accused of buying the suv cares as much or more for the newest looking thing on the road.

We live in a vain society and every one wants to look like they are part of the Rich and Famous. Looks are very important today. You have to get the public's attention with looks since most don't know a dipstick from a spark plug.

I would be willing to wager the new Tahoe and other 800's are selling better on imporved looks alone than any other factor even though they are vastly improvedd in all areas.

Do you think the new Tahoe woulfd be selling as well if it looked like the old one?

By the way the Buick, Saab and Trailblazer SS may be small in sales numbers but they are by far a major imporvment of the original 360. They were improved in suspension, engine and interior over the original ones that came out.

They are what the 360 should have started at to begin with. Too bad the entire line did not recieve the same treatment.

Dodge is proof that styling sells even if it not as good as a Ford or Chevy.

[evok]

Don't forget:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...PDATE/606130411

[4gm]

Maybe one of the reasons why this segment is shrinking is because most of the entries are either old, like the GMt360's, or look old, like the Explorer and Durango. As others have pointed out, the Pathfinder is doing well. And guess what? You can actually tell it has new sheetmetal. Go figure.

When has shelving an update ever worked out well saleswise? With the Taurus? The Buick Century and Regal? How's that aged looking Grand Prix selling? What are the sales tats on the Ford Ranger? Anyone? GM can find the money to make the BLS, which looks only 1/4 baked, with a sales target of only 10,000 anually yet they can't find the money to update the GMT360's?

[cmattson]

Is this related to Chev. getting a Lambda-based SUV? I'm thinking a Chev offering somewhere along the lines of a Honda Pilot. It's a mid-sized SUV that rides like a car. You need a BOF SUV? You can't do much better than the Tahoe, IMO.

[haypops]

As others have pointed out, the Pathfinder is doing well. 

May pathfinder sales were only less than 5600 compared to a trailblazer, Envoy total of 21500.

[Imaj]

What a shame! They could at least update them with a facelift, new interior, pumping the displacement of the 4.2 to 4.4 and offering a 6-speed.

[Chicagoland]

#1 reason they are dropping, gas prices! If buyer can afford the gas, they will get a full sized truck. Ones that can't swing 100$ tank fills, are getting car based SUV's or cars period.

[citrusZ28]

O.k. here's my predictions either Isuzu and GM are going to work together so NG trailblazer and Envoy share more parts w/colorado and offer Deisel engines!!! so as to make them more eco-frendly and competitive and or how about just fazing them out in favor of Zeta based sport wagons and or tall zeta based cross-over wagons????

v8 or v6 maybe even a deisel in there would still have towing capacitys close to trailblazers deffinately better towing than a fwd based thea or lambda crossover would have ????? BRING ON TH ZETAS

Thirdly I LOVE my colorado 3.5 plenty of toque and hp better mpg than any of my other 3 S10's got rides better and while the interior may be lacking in style,its definately built tougher than an S10..............

[traderchpl]

May pathfinder sales were only less than 5600 compared to a trailblazer, Envoy total of 21500.

Exactly. Must be scary for any automaker due for a massive investment/re-investment in this category. (In GM's case, LONG overdue.)

The Pathfinder is a SUPERB vehicle, and only uneducated buyers (read: stupid people) pay more than $300-500 over invoice. You can easily get one for dead invoice with about 15 minutes of haggling. On top of that, Pathfinders have nice incentives (here in FL at least) AND have a VERY HEAVILY subsidized lease program. I can't imagine that GM is having to spend much more on incentives on the outdated 360s than Nissan is on its "A-student" Pathfinder.

If I were GM, I would be cautious here too.

On a side note, I wonder if we will lament the loss (or reduction) of RWD BOF SUVs in 20 years like we do with cars today. If GM were to abandon this segment, would it regret it in 20 years, just like the cars?

[Flybrian]

On a side note, I wonder if we will lament the loss (or reduction) of RWD BOF SUVs in 20 years like we do with cars today. If GM were to abandon this segment, would it regret it in 20 years, just like the cars?

Likely not, namely because A) the segment won't be abandoned, mainly scaled back, B) the real good ones will still remain (Pathfinder, Explorer, Trailblazer, JGC), and C) look at all the ones we have lost - Montero, Montero Sport, Trooper, Rodeo, QX4 - does anyone even care?

[Spike]

Likely not, namely because A) the segment won't be abandoned, mainly scaled back, B) the real good ones will still remain (Pathfinder, Explorer, Trailblazer, JGC), and C) look at all the ones we have lost - Montero, Montero Sport, Trooper, Rodeo, QX4 - does anyone even care?

I thought that the Grand Cherokee was allways unibody.

[Flybrian]

I thought that the Grand Cherokee was allways unibody.

I believe so, but I was referring to it in relation to other midsize SUVs.

[bobthebuilder]

No revised Trailblazer next year with some off road capability and 6000 lb towing capacity will mean that I wll be in a Commander.

I currently drive a 2002 Trailblazer. Love the truck- at the time it was best in class, but the same car has been on sale since 2001. GM...its time for a refresh. Don't knock the Explorers. in 2002 they were almost as good as the Trailblazers. I would be driving one if they had something that compared to the 4.2L I6 from GM. Even their V8 only had 240hp back then. The new ones must be good, but the 4.0L needs some updates.

Toyota, Nissan and soon Jeep will supplement their BOF SUVs with car based SUVs. GM can do the same with two similarly priced alternatives- one for the guys who need a truck, the other for the families who need (but don't want) a large sedan or a minivan. I don't really care how its built- but it had better be decent off road. Jeep Grand Chrokee is unit body (but has live axles) and performs great until the current model made its debut. Give me a tough SUV that is not built for the mall. Xterra, 4runner, and Commander can't do it all on their own. Let a new Trailblazer cover the ground the H3 is too expensive to cover.

OH- and GM, taking away capability from a BOF truck is dumb. A BOF can't do what a unitbody can as far as gas mileage and space efficiency. If you want a fuel efficient SUV, then the Tahoe should be unit body. Take away that single piece facsia and low front end and give us a decent truck. And if the six speeds are not out next year then I am out.

Edited June 19, 2006 by bobthebuilder

[02800]

I would like to see an suv based off the colorado chassis with the 3.7 and a small v8. I see some people saying buy a tahoe if you need towing capabilities, but do you guys realize they cost around 10 grand MORE than a trailblazer.

[ehaase]

I think that anyone who can afford a trailer can also afford the $10,000 more for a Tahoe.

[02800]

I think that anyone who can afford a trailer can also afford the $10,000 more for a Tahoe.

Are you serious? Not everyone has money to burn. That 10 grand can buy a pretty decent used trailer or boat. Trust me, I am in this situation now. My wife wouldn't drive a tahoe even if I could afford one because of the size.

[91z4me]

Wait a while Wait a while Wait a while Wait a while Wait a while

Are you out lurking in hiding to catch it yet?

[gerardo]

GM, use Nissan's modus operandi (us?) . Use GMT900 to build a new TB and Envoy!!

[bobthebuilder]

Why would they do that?

All the 360s need to stay competitive is mainly the new 6L65 transmission. The Trailblazer could use a new front end and a new dash- but that is easy.

GM, please don't let these trucks die on the vine- they are the best selling SUVs on the market. Give the Trailblazer buyers what we deserve...something to move into when we tire of our current rides.

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Grand Cherokee, like all non-Wrangler-related Jeeps, is unibody, but truck-based and off-road capable, not based on a FWD car like Patriot/Compass.

[Chicagoland]

Best selling? I don't think so, and there are lots better choices now. The Extended ones were still to small inside compared to a GMT900.

[thegriffon]

I thought that the Grand Cherokee was allways unibody.

So was the Montero and the previous generation Pathfinder.

[bobthebuilder]

Best selling? I don't think so, and there are lots better choices now. The Extended ones were still to small inside compared to a GMT900.

Trailblazer (not counting the Envoy and other 360s) was the best selling SUV nameplate last year. Chevy's Equinox didn't even get close. Probably more to do with the 3.4L Chinamotor than the unitbody structure, but still... Edited June 20, 2006 by bobthebuilder

[Hudson]

Trailblazer (not counting the Envoy and other 360s) was the best selling SUV nameplate last year.  Chevy's Equinox didn't even get close.  Probably more to do with the 3.4L Chinamotor than the unitbody structure, but still...

Probably MORE to do with the fact that the plant couldn't possibly build enough Equinoxes to be the top-selling "SUV." And, yes, the Trailblazer (including the EXT) outsold the Explorer by just over 4,000 units. Through the first five months of this year, however, the Explorer is outselling the Trailblazer.

[Drew Dowdell]

I just wrote an article related to this on my blog.

[bobthebuilder]

I just wrote an article related to this on my blog.

I don't agree with all of it. Nice read, though.

With the new lambdas, sales of the Trailblazer will drop- especially if there is no EXT model. The Lambdas will not, however, cover much of the market that the Trailblazer and Envoy do cover. The trailblazers are capable of towing more than 6,000 lbs.- and I doubt the new Lambdas or Equinox will come close to that.

I think that there are three kinds of people nowadays who want SUVs:

1. Those who want a good family car with seating for 5 or more- three rows of seats- usually women.

2. Those who want to appear rugged by driving a big, powerful SUV with big tires, a brush guard, and off road styling. These people may actually take thier SUV off road once or twice just to say that they did -young guys and girls...think Xterra, FJ, Jeep products...

3. Those who need the SUV for their capabilities. Either for off roading or its towing.

The Trailblazer EXT is no longer around to cover the first group. That is where the Lambdas (and the Equinox if they can fit a third row option). These people want a fuel efficent truckster that is safe. They probably wont' even install a trailer towing package on their SUV- and 95 percent of them will be 2wd.

Group 2 is a huge group as well. Just count all the Xterras and Jeep Libertys around. Most of those people don't take their trucks off road- but they wouldn't buy an SUV unless it came with a flashy yellow paint, big off road tires, legendary capability, and a poweful engine. At least half of these are 4x4, and many install aftermarket tires, grille guards, and some of these SUVs spend much of their time covered in mud. (I find that the ones with the grille guards are usually never taken off road)

I am certain that while people like myself in group 3 are not as common- we do exist and a good percentage of every truck-based SUV sales goes to people like us. We want a truck that can tow our boat, work trailer, or classic car. They need to be able to make it through the construction entrance of their building project without getting stuck and still have enough room inside to pick the kids up from soccer practice. These SUVs get used- and I fall into this group. We don't spend too much money on aftermarket parts or fancy grille guards, tires or anything- but we are probably the hardest on our trucks.

The trailblazer was trying to cover all three groups while Toyota has two mid-size trucks for this (Highlander for group 1, 4runner for group 2 and 3). The Equinox can handle the Rav4 if it can get a decent engine upgrade- but as far as midsize trucks- the Lambdas don't have a chance in groups 2 or 3. This is something that only a truck-based SUV can cover. GM should either update (minor update at least) the Trailblazer and Enovy, or introduce GMT355 based SUVs to go against the Xterra, Liberty, Grand Cherokee, and 4runner. There is still a market for these things. Nissan can tell you the success you can have if you stick to your roots (Xterra). The secret is that groups 2 and 3 don't need much more than a pickup platform with an off road package....cheap to please one of the most highly profitable segments. The Hummer H3 is too expensive for Group 2 and too fancy and trendy for group 3. A new Trailblazer should cover what the H3 is too expensive to do.

Now toyota will have the Rav 4 and Highlander for group 1, the FJ for group 2, and the 4runner for group 3. (undoubtedy there will be overlap, but a sale is a sale). The Equinox is a strong performer, but it is too small for some of the group 1 needs. The Lambdas are there for that. This leaves room for a new, tough looking Trailblazer that is free to appeal to a younger market and the working man at the same time.

Edited June 20, 2006 by bobthebuilder

[Drew Dowdell]

Assuming the 360s are phased out

The Lamdas and Thetas cover group 1. This is currently where 98% of the 360 buyers are. I don't think any of them look rugged and offroad like the xTerra, Jeep, or FJ... do you?

The H3 covers group 2

The 900s cover group 3

The EXT 360s were about as big as a tahoe anyway... they were really just overlap.

[CaddyXLR-V]

The 900s cover group 3

But for the price difference between that and a TB I could get a few jet skis, which is what I would be using it to tow.

[Drew Dowdell]

But for the price difference between that and a TB I could get a few jet skis, which is what I would be using it to tow.

A pair of jet skis on a trailer is about 1,000 pounds..... something even a Cobalt can handle. I'm sure the Lambdas will be able to handle it.

To put this in perspective, the Terraza can tow 3500 lbs. That's about the size of an 18 foot sport boat. Anything larger than that, and you probably want a 900 over a 360 anyway.

[bobthebuilder]

Assuming the 360s are phased out

The Lamdas and Thetas cover group 1. This is currently where 98% of the 360 buyers are. I don't think any of them look rugged and offroad like the xTerra, Jeep, or FJ... do you?

The H3 covers group 2

The 900s cover group 3

The EXT 360s were about as big as a tahoe anyway... they were really just overlap.

Do you really think that the 900s will appeal to someone in group 3? These guys are on a budget, and 40K for a truck that will get dented and scratched is not a good deal. WAY out of my price range and most of group 3s when you consider I will need an off road package now that the new 900s are so low and wimpy.

And are all Chevy dealers supposed to completely relenquish group 2 sales to Hummer? The H3 starts at 30K and is more capable than anything in its market (we are talking the extreme and most affluent group 2s). The Xterra, Jeep, and FJ can be had for much, much cheaper. I hate it when Chevrolet gets dumbed down or screwed over to help some other brand.

Edited June 20, 2006 by bobthebuilder

[Drew Dowdell]

For starters, other than the H3, GM doesn't have *anything* that competes directly with the FJ or xTerra.

And yes, people will go off road with their 900s, I do in my 800 and so have many others.

[bobthebuilder]

A pair of jet skis on a trailer is about 1,000 pounds..... something even a Cobalt can handle.  I'm sure the Lambdas will be able to handle it.

To put this in perspective, the Terraza can tow 3500 lbs. That's about the size of an 18 foot sport boat.  Anything larger than that, and you probably want a 900 over a 360 anyway.

My three seat kawisaki jet ski weighs in at 900 lbs. A pair would be 1800lbs plus the weight of a trailer (probably another 500lbs or so for a dual boats). Granted mine is bigger than most..I think a pair of one seaters are still a bit heavier than 1000 lbs. A Chevy Colorado can barely tow some bass boats if you follow the rules. An Uplander or Terraza might be able to handle an 18' party barge, but it probably won't be able to gain traction on the boat ramp without 4x4 or at least a locking back end.

Unitbodys are not really good choices if you plan on making a habit of towing anything. They can be useful for the occasional tow, but they distribute load across the truck which subjects the entire package to flex, which causes squeaks and rattles.

I personally have a pair of jet skis and a work trailer. The enclosed work trailer is 18' long and can hold up to 7,000 lbs. I bring it to work at least once a week- but I know that the supplies inside weight only about 3,000 lbs. That plus the trailer itself and the fact that I have to use the construction entrance at my jobsite (usually rutted out and covered in mud and gravel) puts me in a real truck. A lot of people like me are at that point where a full size SUV is too expensive and is kind of overkill, and a something like a Toyota Highlander is too weak. I let the wife drive the expensive cars- that way we can keep them around after we are done paying for them- not so with my trucks because they get too beat up.

I actually have trailer brakes on my Trailblazer. One of my drywall subcontractors has a Trailblazer EXT with trailer brakes (he has a crew of 4). His trailer is much longer than mine, too- and sometimes he is has to be pushing the limit on that 4.2L motor. He and I both swear by our trucks.....and neither of us would pay up for a full size with an off road package just so it can get 4 sweaty workers stinking up the seats and morons driving fork lifts into the fenders. We are not the only ones with mid size SUVs either. My PM drives a 2005 Xterra- he goes through trucks every three years...might as well not waste to much money on one.

Edited June 21, 2006 by bobthebuilder

[Drew Dowdell]

There are always going to be exceptions to the rule.... but look at it from GM's perspective. The buyers of the BOF midsize trucks are moving elsewhere. Not just from GM vehicles, other makes also. Why should GM invest in a new Rainier or 9-7x when a Lambda would suit the buyers of either of those vehicles just fine.

And seriously, if you're going to drop 40 grand on a Rainier, wouldn't you much rather have an Enclave?

GM hasn't said they are canceling the TB or Envoy, they still sell a ton of them. Gm is just taking a wait and see attitude and measuring response to the Lambdas.

[The O.C.]

A pair of jet skis on a trailer is about 1,000 pounds..... something even a Cobalt can handle.  I'm sure the Lambdas will be able to handle it.

To put this in perspective, the Terraza can tow 3500 lbs. That's about the size of an 18 foot sport boat.  Anything larger than that, and you probably want a 900 over a 360 anyway.

Depends on what kind of PWC you have. Ours each weight 1K lbs a piece.....so each plus the trailer is about 3K[3.5K lbs when you factor in gas, etc.

[The O.C.]

Unitbodys are not really good choices if you plan on making a habit of towing anything.  They can be useful for the occasional tow, but they distribute load across the truck which subjects the entire package to flex, which causes squeaks and rattles. 

Depends. We use an X5 to tow our 3,000-3,500 lbs of seadoos and trailer, etc. and while that's not a ton of weight, you really can't tell they are back there. The X5 is extremely stout in structure. (Plus the 4.4L V8 makes power a non-issue.)

Unibodys CAN be fine for towing.....as long as you stay within the acceptable range of use.

Of course, believe it or not, our X5 is rated to tow 6,000 lbs....and with the way it copes with 3,500lbs, it would probably do just fine maxed out at 6,000.

[Flybrian]

I think Bobthebuilder is referring to prolonged, continued towing, though the JGC's structure in relation to towing makes for an interesting example.

[Hudson]

The assumption being made here is that a huge percentage of GMT360 buyers are towing something large. I haven't seen any official surveys, but I RARELY see any of these towing much more than a Dunkin' Donuts large coffee. For (what I guess to be) 95%+ of the GMT360 clientele, a Lambda or minivan will fit the bill and nicely. For those who tow, I'm sure they can move up to the GMT900s. I see people who seem to be "on a budget" driving them all the time. If they've got a boat large enough to require something akin to a GMT360, they've planned on getting something as expensive as a base-line GMT900...if not more.

With the Lambdas, I believe that the GMT360 is redundant. Sure, GM will keep the GMT360 around for a few years like they did with the Astra/Safari and the GMT330s, but the shift will be made to Lambda quickly.

[sciguy_0504]

Aren't the Lambdas significantly larger than the GMT360s? I was under the assumption the Lambdas are the unibody counterparts to the GMT900 SUVs. If that is the case, I still see a market for a smaller, cheaper SUV that is better than the 'Nox/Torrent.