NG GMT 360 Shelved

[evok]

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/060616/1303729.html?.v=1

[Drew Dowdell]

Do we at least get some mid-cycle refreshes?

[Camino LS6]

I never thought too much of these to begin with, they always seemed either too big or too small to me.

[Shantanu]

This is going to create a $h! storm, with the union and the need to keep the factory running... As well as the need to placate dealers with product. We could end up with a bunch of lame rebadges, just to keep these parties happy.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to can the mid-size SUVs, it's just a bad idea to can something this late. This is a decision they should have made a while ago.

[regfootball]

BY GOD at least put a new interior in these things then for the last few years.

[Variance]

So they're going to let the current SUVs stagnate and get murdered by the much fresher competition? Terrific.

[Flybrian]

You know, these could get replaced by something better suited for a changing market. The EXT/XLs don't move well anyway and GM got by for nearly two decades with an S-10-based Blazer/Jimmy/Bravada. Yes, they were a little smaller than the GMT-360s, but what else rode the 360 platform? GM could certainly afford spawning a new generation of midsize SUVs off another pickup platfom...

Just saying...

[sciguy_0504]

A new interior would help sales.

[haypops]

Isn't Ford loosing a bundle on the Explorer refresh?

[Variance]

Isn't Ford loosing a bundle on the Explorer refresh?

That's their problem. Everyone thinks it's no more than a minor refresh when in fact it's been pretty heavily revised. At least that's the theory.

[ZL-1]

Could this be the GM preparing to develop unibody mid-size SUVs, like shortened Lambdas or extended Thetas?

EDIT: or maybe GM's taking a 'wait and see' posture, and might use the NG Colorado frame as the base to mid-size SUVs in case the BOF market picks up again.

Edited June 16, 2006 by ZL-1

[Chazman]

Do we at least get some mid-cycle refreshes?

Nope, doesn't look like it.

[Flybrian]

That's their problem. Everyone thinks it's no more than a minor refresh when in fact it's been pretty heavily revised. At least that's the theory.

So was the Navigator, but could you tell?

[regfootball]

That's their problem. Everyone thinks it's no more than a minor refresh when in fact it's been pretty heavily revised. At least that's the theory.

THE NEW EXPLORER INTERIOR IS GARBAGE

THE NEW GRILLE IS GARBAGE

THE SHAPE IS THE SAME

THE GAS MILEAGE IS GARBAGE

THE ENGINES ARE MEDIOCRE

IT PROBABLY STILL ROLLS OVER

GARBAGE

GARBAGE

GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited June 16, 2006 by regfootball

[pow]

I saw my first "new" Mountaineer yesterday... I peered inside, and it WAS nice.

[Variance]

So was the Navigator, but could you tell?

From the first gen to the second? Not from the outside.

But the Mountaineer is the best (worst) example. Quick, is this the new one or old one?:

[avant1963]

Round fog lights - Old one. That's the only way I can tell from the front. New ones have rectangular lights that match the Mariner. But that's just me - I'm mental in NEEDING to know what year vehicles are.

[91z4me]

Could this be the GM preparing to develop unibody mid-size SUVs, like shortened Lambdas or extended Thetas?

EDIT: or maybe GM's taking a 'wait and see' posture, and might use the NG Colorado frame as the base to mid-size SUVs in case the BOF market picks up again.

I bet new thetas and a new SUV based on the new Izusu/GM platform. Like Charlie said on Cz28 I expect GMNA will design the SUVs. Hopefully we get 3 rows of seats outta the next 355s like the Izusu UV7 has.

[Northstar]

This is ok because the market is shrinking radiply anyways. I'd rather see the money go into CUVs on Lambda and Theta where the market is moving.

[Chicagoland]

So they're going to let the current SUVs stagnate and get murdered by the much fresher competition? Terrific.

Umm, the 'fresher' competition is getting killed also. "New" Explorer, Cherokee, and Durango are collecting dust. This segment was fashionable 10-17 years ago, now as passe' as Landau Vinyl Tops.

Buyers either want true full size SUV's or gas saving cross over utes.

[Chazman]

So they're going to let the current SUVs stagnate and get murdered by the much fresher competition? Terrific.

There just going to put their product money elsewhere.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Chazman

[sciguy_0504]

I think the new Explorer is pretty nice. It looks classy, IMO.

[Shantanu]

I just have a hard time belieiving there's suddenly no market for truck based mid-sized SUVs.

[hyperv6]

These are the bold moves GM needs to make to turn things around.

Fords rehash may be good but it breaks no ground and looks much the same. In a slow high gas price market that is the kiss of death.

GM made a nice SUV but it was never as good as it could have been. Too many areas were short changed.

I expect we have a better bolder alturnitive coming.

If Ford does not do something soon they will be much worse off than GM. They are nearly there now.

[FAPTurbo]

THE NEW EXPLORER INTERIOR IS GARBAGE

THE NEW GRILLE IS GARBAGE

THE SHAPE IS THE SAME

THE GAS MILEAGE IS GARBAGE

THE ENGINES ARE MEDIOCRE

IT PROBABLY STILL ROLLS OVER

GARBAGE

GARBAGE

GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it hadn't been for the friendly rep at the Auto Show... I would have died from starvation in the new Explorer.

I couldn't figure out how to open those god awful door handles.

[packardlust]

With only speculation, more SUV's based on the new Izusu/GM platform would seem like a very good bet. This time maybe they will do the right thing and make room for the inline six in this slighty smaller chassis. My 94 S10 with the 4.3 V6 had nearly 200,000 miles on it when I was hit by a driver who ran a red light. That small truck with the small block 6 could kick butt. I really wanted another compact Chevy truck with the 6, but it couldn't be had. I'm a 100% GM fan, but somebody was smoking crack the day they deleted the inline 6 from the Colorado. GM has the opportunity to fix these mistakes now. Put the six in the Colorado and put more SUV's on the Colorado frame (H3). With the right engine in the Colorado based SUV, the GM 360's are redundant and unneccesary.

[enzl]

More likely you'll see a rush upgrade to SS or Ranier or 9-7 spec to preserve those BOF sales you need...I don't think most consumers who were buying these types of vehicles because they 'liked the look' are coming back after the latest crop of CUVs from all manufacturers....

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Hmmm...maybe GM will make good use of the GMT-355 platform...

(I see packardlust had the same idea.)

Edited June 17, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[daves87rs]

Hmmm....not surprised...

Rumor is that the 360s are done after 08 (few 09s)

And, yes-there should be a replacement, though smaller....

Don't laugh-it could be wagon-like....

I wouldn't be surprised if the trucklet twins are gone too-sales continue to slide....

It's time to exit those markets anyways...

[daves87rs]

Umm, the 'fresher' competition is getting killed also. "New" Explorer, Cherokee, and Durango are collecting dust. This segment was fashionable 10-17 years ago, now as passe' as Landau Vinyl Tops.

Buyers either want true full size SUV's or gas saving cross over utes.

[DetroitNut90]

From the first gen to the second? Not from the outside.

But the Mountaineer is the best (worst) example. Quick, is this the new one or old one?:

It's the old one...the foglights on the new one are square.

I can't really see why the GMT-360 sales (or the midsize BOF SUV segment) are tanking. I would think that the full-size SUV market would shrink like this before the midsize market due to the rising gas prices. I just hope that GM doesn't spawn so many cars off of Lambda like they did with GMT-360.

[daves87rs]

So they're going to let the current SUVs stagnate and get murdered by the much fresher competition? Terrific.

Why waste money on something that won't sell?

Better spent on cars at this point...

[daves87rs]

I think the new Explorer is pretty nice.  It looks classy, IMO.

The EB version is very nice...

[Cadillacfan]

In the June edition of Motortrend there is an article discussing the doomed future of the GMT 360s and how GM may be devoting more money to the Lambda program to cover the mid-size range and keep the BOF platforms to the pick-ups and full-size SUVs. (Yes... I understand this is Motortrend making the predictions and they're usually never right, but I tend to believe this one because of the constant delays.)

Here's a chop they used of what a Chevy Lambda could potentially look like.

I've got to say, the Outlook looks much more attractive with the Chevy bar across the center. Chevy should've gotten this vehicle over Saturn but since the Trailblazer already covers this territory right now, the brand doesn't need it as much as Saturn does.

From Motortrend:

Sorry for the bad quality... I've got a crappy scanner.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Cadillacfan

[Guest The Shelf]

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/060616/1303729.html?.v=1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In future, please refrain from posting information that is clearly meant to undermine the long term viability of GM. (That's my job!)

oh, and note, that they are not 'shelved'. Here at C&G, Shelved means delayed by a few days. These bad boys are cancelled.

[Variance]

Umm, the 'fresher' competition is getting killed also. "New" Explorer, Cherokee, and Durango are collecting dust. This segment was fashionable 10-17 years ago, now as passe' as Landau Vinyl Tops.

Buyers either want true full size SUV's or gas saving cross over utes.

Tell that to the Pathfinder and Pilot. Their sales are both up over last year's.

[Cadillacfan]

In future, please refrain from posting information that is clearly meant to undermine the long term viability of GM.  (That's my job!)

oh, and note, that they are not 'shelved'.  Here at C&G, Shelved means delayed by a few days.  These bad boys are cancelled.

Since you're appear to be new to the site seeing as this is your first post, I'll let your first comment slide. People here are allowed to post whatever they want (as long as it's appropriate). If you don't agree with that, fine. Just don't tell other people what to do. Unless you were being sarcastic. Then nevermind.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Cadillacfan

[Croc]

My money is on GMT-355 SUVas...Hummer H3 is doing really well...

[GMTruckGuy74]

I got to say, I have an '05 Envoy SLT 4wd and love it! Of course the MPG could be better with gas costing $2.85+/gal for regular, but I knew what I was getting at the time. I love the ride, handling & performance features of my Envoy and don't have any problems with the interior. It's leased and I'm seriously considering buying it at lease-end (though that depends on what the GMC Acadia looks like ) Sorry to see these SUVs go...

[Cadillacfan]

Before people start calling me a thread hog, I have one last comment:

I hope the next generation TB/Envoy are not on the 355 platform. I had a chance to experience the H3 for a few weeks in late December and while it's a nice vehicle, it's cramped inside compared to the Trailblazer. Not just for legs but for shoulders too. Now, it may have been cramped because Hummers tend to be a little more clunky inside compared to most SUVs but I doubt it wouldn't be much different on a different SUV on the same platform.

Unless GM can figure out how to maximize interior space without stretching the platform too much, a lot of people would turn away from GM midsizers if they were Colorado based.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Cadillacfan

[Variance]

They could take a page from Nissan's playbook and base the next midsizers on the fullsizers' platform.

[ewm2]

"Tell that to the Pathfinder and Pilot. Their sales are both up over last year's."

The Pathfinder is a good argument, but the Pilot is just an Accord wagon so if you use it as your point GM should be dropping their BOF and going with Crossovers instead. Unfortunately, they won't get any good press over this even though the Xovers will get much better gas mileage.

Also, the TB etc. are too big. If you pay sticker price on them you might as well get a Tahoe, that is only slightly bigger and is a much better design.

[Chazman]

Before people start calling me a thread hog, I have one last comment:

I hope the next generation TB/Envoy are not on the 355 platform. 

Right now, there won't be a next gen TB/Envoy...and they certainly wouldn't be based on 355 if there were.

At this point, GM sees them as somewhat redundant. If you need a full framed vehicle to tow or haul, there are the 900's. If you're looking for something less truck like, but with a third row, Lambda is on the way.

The $1 billion saved will be better spent elsewhere.

[Darc Requiem]

GM and Isuzu have already started work on the next gen Colorado/Canyon platform. GM should make sure that successor to the GMT-355 is versatile enough to accommodate the next-gen Trailblazer/Envoy. You NEVER abandon a market. Its foolish, it allows your competition an uncontested revenue stream. Just like when GM canned the Camaro/Firebird and Ford has reaped the rewards with Mustang.

If the next Colorado/Canyon platform is made so that it can be useful for both the Colorado/Canyon and Trailblazer/Envoy, it will reduce the cost of keeping the Trailblazer/Envoy. Also it will keep GM from being caught with its pants down like it was with the Mustangs success. Do we really want GM to let the competition have free reign over BOF mid-size SUVs? Do we really want GM to have to take 3 or 4 years to develop a replacement from scratch and have the 4Runner and Pathfinder sales take off? I mean seriously, I don't want any more Camaro incidents.

[Chicagoland]

With gas prices high, doubt that any truck based SUV is going to 'take off'. The Pathfinder and 4 runner are so high priced, the Tahoe pretty much competes with them now.

[prototype66]

Could this be the GM preparing to develop unibody mid-size SUVs, like shortened Lambdas or extended Thetas?

EDIT: or maybe GM's taking a 'wait and see' posture, and might use the NG Colorado frame as the base to mid-size SUVs in case the BOF market picks up again.

Ah ha, I think you may be onto something there. Lets hope the new rado isn't as f%#@$ pu as the present one. Ultra cheapo interior, too small yet too big, VAAAAAAAAAAAAAstly under powered for the mpg. I do like the sheet metal but the fab isnt the best. It needs an extreme makeover! Call Dr 90210.

[cmattson]

My personal opinion here is that GM is making the right choice: fuel prices have bled 'want' buyers out of the market; leaving only 'need' buyers. Sure, there will always be a market for a truck-based, or BOF SUV: and for those you have the GMT9xx vehicles. As it was, the Trailblazer competed for sales against the Tahoe. I'm not terribly saddened by this decision.

[The O.C.]

THE NEW EXPLORER INTERIOR IS GARBAGE

THE NEW GRILLE IS GARBAGE

THE SHAPE IS THE SAME

THE GAS MILEAGE IS GARBAGE

THE ENGINES ARE MEDIOCRE

IT PROBABLY STILL ROLLS OVER

GARBAGE

GARBAGE

GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure as hell beats the pants off of any GMT-360.

Go drive one.....it's a damn nice steer. It may look the same as the old Explorer, but it drives much better. Quiet, refined, and a solid, good-handling chassis.

The interior fit-and-finish far surpasses the TrailBlazer/Envoy, and gas mileage is no better or worse than what you would get on any similar competitor.

I haven't driven the V8 yet, but performance looks good in the mags. The 4.6L is a good, smooth, quiet and powerful engine.

I have driven plenty 4.0L and I'm contiually impressed with this OHC engine in its truck applications....especially considering it's unimpressive horsepower number. It also mates well to the 5-speed (or is it 6-speed now?) automatic tranny.

Don't bastardize something unless you've had experience with it.

[The O.C.]

Fords rehash may be good but it breaks no ground and looks much the same.

True it looks the same, but Ford was spent WAY more money updating the Explorer than GM has with the GMT-360.

Whether it pays off for them eventually or not is another question.

We haven't seen ANY significant changes on ANY version of the GMT-360 other than a VERY minor facelift. No significant chassis improvements, no major powertrain improvements, and obviously no interior upgrades.

[The O.C.]

It's the old one...the foglights on the new one are square.

I can't really see why the GMT-360 sales (or the midsize BOF SUV segment) are tanking. I would think that the full-size SUV market would shrink like this before the midsize market due to the rising gas prices. I just hope that GM doesn't spawn so many cars off of Lambda like they did with GMT-360.

I think two things....

1) The GMT-900s are VASTLY improved and class-leading. The GMT-360s aren't even close. Demand for the larger SUVs is because of how competent they are.

2) Gas mileage sucks for a midsize BOF SUV like the GMT-360s (even with the inline-6) almost as bad as any fullsize V8 SUV.....so I don't see people gravitating to a midsize BOF SUV just because of fuel economy versus a fullsize. 15-16mpg in a TrailBlazer is not that much better than 13-14mpg in a fullsize.