Dodge News: The 2023 Dodge Hornet Flies Out Of The Hive

[Drew Dowdell]

Dodge took the wraps off a muscular new compact crossover that packs quite the sting.  The 2023 Dodge Hornet will be one of the quickest and most powerful entries into the compact crossover segment with even the base model having best in class performance. Based on the same sporty platform as the Alfa-Romeo Tonale, the 2023 Hornet gets the Dodge Brother's take on what a compact crossover should be.

Power
The Hornet packs two powertrain options. The base Hornet GT comes with a 2.0-liter turbocharged 4-cylinder with direct injection and start-stop producing an estimated 265+ horsepower and 295 lb-ft of torque running to all wheels, standard, via a 9-speed automatic transmission.  Priced under $30k, this makes the Hornet GT the most powerful vehicle available under that price point. In normal driving, the power is dialed back for fuel efficiency and emissions, however, the GT has a Sport Mode button on the steering wheel that unlocks a quicker throttle response, tighter steering feel, and if equipped with Dual Stage shocks a stiffer suspension setting, along with releasing the full horsepower and torque specs.  The base GT gets from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds.

The Hornet R/T PHEV is the first electrified performance vehicle. (The first electrified Dodge was the 2009-only Dodge Durango Hemi-Hybrid).  The R/T features a 1.3-liter turbocharged 4-cylinder with third-generation MultiAir technology and 6-speed automatic combined with a 90-kW electric motor that powers the rear wheels. Combines, the powertrain deploys 285 horsepower and 383 lb-ft of torque.  Takeoffs should be brisk with the electric motor alone delivering 184 lb-ft of torque at 0 rpm.

The Hornet R/T carries a 15.5-kWh lithium-ion refrigerant cooled battery pack, while a belt starter-generator adds and smooths torque from the internal combustion engine while also providing some battery regeneration capabilities.  A 7.4-kW charging inverter allows for the battery to be charged from zero to full in about 2.5 hours from a household Level-2 charging. The battery is capable of delivering up to 30 miles of EV-only range.  The same Sport Mode is available on the R/T as the GT, however the R/T PHEV gets an extra "sting" in reserve with its PowerShot feature.

The Powershot feature boosts horsepower by 25 and increases torque for 15 seconds which shaves a full second off the 0-60 time, down to 6.1 seconds.  Powershot is activated by pulling both steering wheel mounted paddle shifters and stomping the pedal. After 15 seconds, the vehicle enters a 15 second cool down period before the PowerShot can be repeated.

When you're not hooning it, the Hornet R/T has several efficiency modes.

• Hybrid Mode: Provides maximum combined efficiency of the conventional engine and e-Motor, minimizing fuel consumption by setting electric priority until a minimum battery level is met.
• Electric Mode: Offers an all-electric, zero emission mode, and automatically switches to hybrid when the battery is depleted or when extra power is requested by driver pedal kickdown.
• E-Save Mode: Gives priority to the conventional engine to preserve battery charge, with a Passive option to maintain the charge and an Active option to help recharge the battery.

Dodge also showed the Dodge Hornet GT GLH (Goes Like Hell) Concept that previews additional dealer-added parts via the Dodge Direct Connection pack. Some of the options shown on the GLH Concept are:

• Stage kit that offers stackable performance upgrades for the GT model
• Suspension lowering kit drops the Hornet more than an inch, creating a lower center of gravity and enhanced cornering dynamics 
• Unrestricted dual exhaust with black chrome tips provide a throaty performance note
• Exclusive Direction Connection GLH 20-inch painted and machine-faced wheels
• Exclusive Direct Connection GLH graphics, including stripes and logos
• Black-painted lower trim with exhaust cutout rear fascia

Horsepower, performance, and pricing numbers for the Direct Connection parts will be available at a later date.

Driving
What is all that power without the power to control it?  The 2023 Hornet leads in this department as well with a hive of class exclusive driving performance features.

• Koni frequency selective damping shocks - Standard on GT and R/T - Class Exclusive
• Front Brembo four-piston fixed calipers - Optional on GT / Standard on R/T - Class Exclusive
• Brake-by-wire - Standard on R/T - Class Exclusive
• Driver-selectable Dual-Stage-Valve suspension - Optional with Track Pack option on GT and R/T - Class Exclusive
• Fully Independent suspension with 3-link rear Chapman suspension - Standard on GT and R/T
• Dynamic Torque Vectoring that can act as an electronic limited-slip differential in Sport Mode - Standard on GT and R/T
• Best-in-class weight distribution - Standard on GT and R/T

Interior

Dodge didn't skimp on technology on the Hornet's interior. Coming standard is a 12.3-inch digital cockpit cluster screen and a 10.25-inch Uconnect 5 Infotainment display.  The gauge screen is split into three zones that the driver can customize.

The Android-based Uconnect 5 system allows for HVAC, seat controls, and more to be customized and linked to driver profiles. Wireless CarPlay and Android Auto is standard, while Amazon Alexa is built in, allowing for control of home devices or using home-based Alexa devices to control the car remotely. Wireless charging is standard on GT and R/T plus.

Standard on the GT Plus and R/T Plus is a Harman-Kardon premium sound system with 14 speakers and 465 watts of power.

Safety

The Hornet gets a honeycomb of advanced safety features including Level 2 autonomous driving with the optional Tech Pack.

Standard Advanced Driver-Assistance System features for all models include:

• Automatic Emergency Braking, which detects pedestrians or cyclists on the road and delivers a visual and acoustic warning, and can bring the vehicle to a full stop to mitigate collision
• Lane Support System gives a visual and haptic warning when straying from a vehicle lane while driving and performs automatic counter steering
• Blind Spot Detection with Rear Cross Path alerts drivers via a visual warning through a triangular icon on the side mirrors, chimes with a warning when the turn signal is active, and the system also detects approaching vehicles or objects when backing up

Optional with the Tech Pack:

• Intelligent Speed Assist w/Traffic Sign Recognition detects the speed limit and provides the driver a one-click option to adjust speeds
• Driver Attention Assist detects signs of fatigue and alerts weary drivers with a visual and acoustic warning on the cluster
• Intelligent Adaptive Cruise Control (IACC) maintains an appropriate speed and distance with functionality that supports stop and go traffic
• Lateral Control/Lane Support system combines Lane Control and Traffic Jam Assist to keep the vehicle centered on the lane

The 2023 Dodge Hornet will be built in Stellantis's Giambattista Vico Stellantis plant in Pomigliano d’Arco, Naples, Italy, with the GT available later in 2022 and R/T PHEV arriving in Spring 2023

 

 

 

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[surreal1272]

While it's a much needed addition for Dodge in a much needed to compete in market, I have a major issue with this. Now, take this with a grain of salt and understand this is just my lowly opinion, but all the people who gave GM and Ford absolute hell for badge engineering in the past, better lay it on heavy here because, if it did not say Dodge on it and not have the Dart like headlight/grill treatment, I'd never guess this was anything other than a crappy Alfa. Just a big ole' "meh" from me lol.

[Robert Hall]

24 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

While it's a much needed addition for Dodge in a much needed to compete in market, I have a major issue with this. Now, take this with a grain of salt and understand this is just my lowly opinion, but all the people who gave GM and Ford absolute hell for badge engineering in the past, better lay it on heavy here because, if it did not say Dodge on it and not have the Dart like headlight/grill treatment, I'd never guess this was anything other than a crappy Alfa. Just a big ole' "meh" from me lol.

It definitely looks like they changed very little behind the front fascia.  I guess it gives them something in the compact CUV market, after the demise of the ancient Journey. 

At least w/ the Dart, while it was on a Fiat/Alfa platform, there wasn't a Fiat or Alfa model in the US market with the same panels.    The Alfa Tonale is going to be sold in the US.   Kind of like how back in the 70s-90s Dodge and Plymouth had many cloned models with little brand differentiation... 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Robert Hall

[smk4565]

They need a small crossover since that is the #1 segment, but there are also like 20 vehicles in this segment.  You have to be there but it is crowded space, going with a performance angle at least lets them stand out.  I feel like Alfa Romeo and Dodge SUVs aren't really what a lot of people are looking for though and I wouldn't trust reliability of this compared to a Rav4 or CR-V.  In the launch presentation the head of Dodge mentions people in this segment shop fuel economy, value, practicality, etc and how that's boring and Dodge will sell performance and attitude, etc.  But people paying $30k for a car are usually more on a budget and won't buy a car that sucks gas or has costly maintenance repairs.

[Drew Dowdell]

This is a huge move up market for Dodge. I’m guessing that the “under $30k” part means $28,995 + $995 destination charge base price. The Journey could be had for as little as $23k and that was a bigger vehicle.

 That said, I’m pretty intrigued by it. 

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But people paying $30k for a car are usually more on a budget and won't buy a car that sucks gas or has costly maintenance repairs.

In normal mode, the engine output gets dialed back for efficiency.  The bigger Terrain 2.0T with a 9-speed gets into the 30s on the highway, so I would expect similar numbers from this. Not an unreasonable expectation when the bigger/heavier Cherokee with the previous version of this engine does 26 mpg.

The Pacifica Hybrid does 83 MPGe, so the PHEV Hornet R/T should easily meet or exceed that. 
 

For my household, the Hornet R/T would effectively be a high powered EV in daily commuting. For both of us our daily round trip is less than 30 miles.

I dont think fuel economy will be an issue for either model.

[smk4565]

57 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

In normal mode, the engine output gets dialed back for efficiency.  The bigger Terrain 2.0T with a 9-speed gets into the 30s on the highway, so I would expect similar numbers from this. Not an unreasonable expectation when the bigger/heavier Cherokee with the previous version of this engine does 26 mpg.

The Pacifica Hybrid does 83 MPGe, so the PHEV Hornet R/T should easily meet or exceed that. 
 

For my household, the Hornet R/T would effectively be a high powered EV in daily commuting. For both of us our daily round trip is less than 30 miles.

I dont think fuel economy will be an issue for either model.

Fuel economy might not be, but I'd question reliability and build quality.  And a Rav4 hybrid or Prime could top this in fuel economy I'd guess, likewise with the Escape hybrid and PHEV.  

I get the use case for the PHEV, but most of those once the battery is depleted is less efficient than a regular hybrid because you are just carrying extra battery weight, plus you have the maintenance costs of 2 powertrains.  I think just going all EV makes more sense.

And I'd guess the price is $29,900 and Destination is like $1500.  Dodge and Jeep like to do crap like that for advertising purposes.  And you can raise it a year later, that "under $40k" F150 Lightning lasted like 3 months, now it is like $49k for the base model with destination.   Dodge has always had to rely on rock bottom price to sell, as you pointed out with the Journey, this thing will be Cadillac XT4 pricing with 1 option package.  Risky strategy by them to go up market, especially given how Alfa Romeo is bombing.

[Drew Dowdell]

There’s a bunch of option packages listed in the release already.  The engine of the PHEV is tiny. I’m sure they are managing the battery to it never goes to zero just like the Volt does, and there is plenty of Regen possibilities
 

Don’t be so negative 

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And you can raise it a year later, that "under $40k" F150 Lightning lasted like 3 months, now it is like $49k for the base model with destination.

Um, unprecedented inflation will do that. It’s also $46K and don’t forget it now qualifies for the $7500 EV credit as part of the IRA bill passed this week. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Um, unprecedented inflation will do that. It’s also $46K and don’t forget it now qualifies for the $7500 EV credit as part of the IRA bill passed this week. 

It's not unprecedented.  We're still below the inflation of the 70s and 80s that was in both of our lifetimes.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's not unprecedented.  We're still below the inflation of the 70s and 80s that was in both of our lifetimes.

I am speaking of the quickness at which everything went up. COVID affected that 100%. 

[smk4565]

5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Um, unprecedented inflation will do that. It’s also $46K and don’t forget it now qualifies for the $7500 EV credit as part of the IRA bill passed this week. 

I think it was eligible before, but Ford was about to run out of credits so tho are good to go now.  Assuming their batteries have enough North American content to qualify.

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There’s a bunch of option packages listed in the release already.  The engine of the PHEV is tiny. I’m sure they are managing the battery to it never goes to zero just like the Volt does, and there is plenty of Regen possibilities
 

Don’t be so negative 

I am sure it doesn’t go to zero but the Fusion Energi when off EV only mode got less mpg than a Fusion hybrid.  The Volt was 42 mpg after you use up the electric range, a Camry hybrid is 50 mpg. 
 

It is also possible they went the PHEV route to get tax credits because under the old law the would have but now the Hornet won’t qualify.  And 3 years ago when development started they would have had no idea the law would change on them.

[regfootball]

16 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

In normal mode, the engine output gets dialed back for efficiency.  The bigger Terrain 2.0T with a 9-speed gets into the 30s on the highway, so I would expect similar numbers from this. Not an unreasonable expectation when the bigger/heavier Cherokee with the previous version of this engine does 26 mpg.

The Pacifica Hybrid does 83 MPGe, so the PHEV Hornet R/T should easily meet or exceed that. 
 

For my household, the Hornet R/T would effectively be a high powered EV in daily commuting. For both of us our daily round trip is less than 30 miles.

I dont think fuel economy will be an issue for either model.

good that this new offering has come up.  I prefer the Tonale, but my guess is they will sell at higher prices.  Big thing is the 2.0 turbo is a valid option in the Hornet; those who GM told f u to who wanted the 2.0 to continue in the Terrain and Equinox have something to go to rather than settle for the 1.5.

[Drew Dowdell]

11 minutes ago, regfootball said:

good that this new offering has come up.  I prefer the Tonale, but my guess is they will sell at higher prices.  Big thing is the 2.0 turbo is a valid option in the Hornet; those who GM told f u to who wanted the 2.0 to continue in the Terrain and Equinox have something to go to rather than settle for the 1.5.

The Hornet will be a little bit smaller than those (cue the roominess complaints in a vehicle intended to be a sports crossover).  This isn't a direct replacement for the Journey in that regard and it won't line up against the CR-V/RAV-4/TerriNox directly because it will be more compact.  From an interior size perspective, I would expect this to line up more between an Encore GX and a BMW X3.

[regfootball]

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The Hornet will be a little bit smaller than those (cue the roominess complaints in a vehicle intended to be a sports crossover).  This isn't a direct replacement for the Journey in that regard and it won't line up against the CR-V/RAV-4/TerriNox directly because it will be more compact.  From an interior size perspective, I would expect this to line up more between an Encore GX and a BMW X3.

this is Compass sized.  The Equinox and current Compass are pretty similar in size but i can see if it ended up between the Equinox and Encore GX.

Edited August 19, 2022 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

18 minutes ago, regfootball said:

this is Compass sized.  The Equinox and current Compass are pretty similar in size but i can see if it ended up between the Equinox and Encore GX.

I'm not sure why, but the Compass feels a lot more snug than the Equinox.  The Terrain feels downright airy.  I know the Nox and Terrain have identical dimensions. I've always considered the Cherokee with its larger cargo capacity to be more of the equivalent to the TerriNox.

MotorTrend compares the Tonale to the XC40 and Q3... which is probably about right.

[regfootball]

6 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm not sure why, but the Compass feels a lot more snug than the Equinox.  The Terrain feels downright airy.  I know the Nox and Terrain have identical dimensions. I've always considered the Cherokee with its larger cargo capacity to be more of the equivalent to the TerriNox.

MotorTrend compares the Tonale to the XC40 and Q3... which is probably about right.

Strange.  I’ve seen comparisons before where they compared the edge and Cherokee. The Cherokee is a real tweener IMO.

I would would like to see them enlarge the compass interior a bit. I know what you mean on the snug part. They did improve the interior a whole lot this past year. At least it’s nice to sit in now finally. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

34 minutes ago, regfootball said:

Strange.  I’ve seen comparisons before where they compared the edge and Cherokee. The Cherokee is a real tweener IMO.

I would would like to see them enlarge the compass interior a bit. I know what you mean on the snug part. They did improve the interior a whole lot this past year. At least it’s nice to sit in now finally. 

I haven't tried the new Compass yet... it looks very Corsair inside,  just a little more "woodsy"

[surreal1272]

It should be noted that the previous credits had expired a month or so ago. The new bill extends that so it's still a valid number to count against the price.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, regfootball said:

this is Compass sized.  The Equinox and current Compass are pretty similar in size but i can see if it ended up between the Equinox and Encore GX.

The Compass is 173 inches long, the Tonale is 178, so I assume the Hornet is also.  Escape and RAV4 are about 180 and Equinox is 183.  An Encore GX is 171 inches long.  
 

The Hornet is probably sized how it is because the Alfa was sized against GLA/Q3/X1/X2 type cars.  Since Alfa has the Stelvio as their X3/GLC rival, which would be Equinox size.  

15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

It should be noted that the previous credits had expired a month or so ago. The new bill extends that so it's still a valid number to count against the price.

Ok, I thought they maybe still had some.  This list of eligible cars is going to change again in January, so I’m curious to see what drops off and what comes back.  If a $7500 credit comes back for the Bolt then that’s the deal of the decade there.

[Drew Dowdell]

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Compass is 173 inches long, the Tonale is 178, so I assume the Hornet is also.  Escape and RAV4 are about 180 and Equinox is 183.  An Encore GX is 171 inches long. 

The Encore and Encore GX are marvels of modern packaging. I can't think of any (ICE) platform from any other manufacturer that gave that much interior room in such a short space.  I genuinely liked my Encore's size when it was just the two of us, but as we now have to transport aging parents, it got too small for 4.

[smk4565]

My guess is people buying a Hornet will want a usable back seat.  

[Drew Dowdell]

35 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

My guess is people buying a Hornet will want a usable back seat.  

As if there’s not a crapload of small premium SUVs out there?  GLA? X1? X2? Q3? Whatever the Lexus ones are these days? Encore GX? XT4? Tonale of course…

I’m actually surprised there isn’t an Acura version of the HR-V yet. How about an Infiniti QX20 based on the Kicks?

[smk4565]

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

As if there’s not a crapload of small premium SUVs out there?  GLA? X1? X2? Q3? Whatever the Lexus ones are these days? Encore GX? XT4? Tonale of course…

I’m actually surprised there isn’t an Acura version of the HR-V yet. How about an Infiniti QX20 based on the Kicks?

But will the Hornet get compared with the premium brands or the RAV4, CX-5 and Equinox that will be bigger and roomier perhaps for the same money.  I don't think a car buyer is going to look at a GLA, a Q3 and a Dodge Hornet.  Maybe Dodge against Ford and Chevy.  The Equinox even after the refresh still seems boring and dated, the Escape is nothing good, CX-5 or RAV4 seem to be the better options and the Tucson seems pretty good.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

But will the Hornet get compared with the premium brands or the RAV4, CX-5 and Equinox that will be bigger and roomier perhaps for the same money.  I don't think a car buyer is going to look at a GLA, a Q3 and a Dodge Hornet.  Maybe Dodge against Ford and Chevy.  The Equinox even after the refresh still seems boring and dated, the Escape is nothing good, CX-5 or RAV4 seem to be the better options and the Tucson seems pretty good.

I think once it gets around that you can get an Alfa for Dodge money, it’ll sell to that set. 

All of the options you listed are significantly slower (8s - 10s range) than the base Hornet (6.5s), except the RAV4 PHEV, but that’s a $45k vehicle base if you can find one without markup.

This is aimed at people who want more sport.

[smk4565]

Going for sport should help the Hornet stand out.  The GLA and X1 are in the low 6's 0-60 but also cost more.  The Escape 2.0 turbo and the CX-3 Turbo and CX-5 Turbo would probably be in the ballpark of the Hornet.  Just depends on how many buyers of small SUVs rank performance as their top attribute they are shopping for.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Going for sport should help the Hornet stand out.  The GLA and X1 are in the low 6's 0-60 but also cost more. 

The GLA and X1 are also smaller inside than this will be.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

CX-3 Turbo

What CX-3? Mazda canceled it. 2021 was the last model year and it’s already out of production.

[smk4565]

13 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The GLA and X1 are also smaller inside than this will be.

What CX-3? Mazda canceled it. 2021 was the last model year and it’s already out of production.

CX-30 I was thinking of.  They have that in a turbo, and CX-50 I assume has a turbo.   Mazda's product planning is stupid, just make more versions of the same SUVs, and try to pass it off as new product when that CX-5 has been on the market like 6 years with no change.

Surprised that Hyundai doesn't have the 2.5 turbo in the Tucson since it is in the Santa Fe, but that is an easy add, and they have the Kona N.  There is some performance small SUV's out there, but not a lot of volume out of them.

[G. David Felt]

On 8/18/2022 at 8:22 PM, smk4565 said:

Fuel economy might not be, but I'd question reliability and build quality.  And a Rav4 hybrid or Prime could top this in fuel economy I'd guess, likewise with the Escape hybrid and PHEV.  

I get the use case for the PHEV, but most of those once the battery is depleted is less efficient than a regular hybrid because you are just carrying extra battery weight, plus you have the maintenance costs of 2 powertrains.  I think just going all EV makes more sense.

And I'd guess the price is $29,900 and Destination is like $1500.  Dodge and Jeep like to do crap like that for advertising purposes.  And you can raise it a year later, that "under $40k" F150 Lightning lasted like 3 months, now it is like $49k for the base model with destination.   Dodge has always had to rely on rock bottom price to sell, as you pointed out with the Journey, this thing will be Cadillac XT4 pricing with 1 option package.  Risky strategy by them to go up market, especially given how Alfa Romeo is bombing.

I will take a wait and see attitude on this auto, but I also would not put my faith in the RAV4 with all the issues Toyota is having with quality. Especially now that they are buying back all the first EVs they produced due to piss poor quality such as the wheels falling off while being driven.

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

CX-30 I was thinking of.  They have that in a turbo, and CX-50 I assume has a turbo.   Mazda's product planning is stupid, just make more versions of the same SUVs, and try to pass it off as new product when that CX-5 has been on the market like 6 years with no change.

Surprised that Hyundai doesn't have the 2.5 turbo in the Tucson since it is in the Santa Fe, but that is an easy add, and they have the Kona N.  There is some performance small SUV's out there, but not a lot of volume out of them.

CS-30 and 50 are way overrated.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

I will take a wait and see attitude on this auto, but I also would not put my faith in the RAV4 with all the issues Toyota is having with quality. Especially now that they are buying back all the first EVs they produced due to piss poor quality such as the wheels falling off while being driven.

CS-30 and 50 are way overrated.

Toyota/Lexus are still the gold standard of cost of ownership and resale value in the eye of the consumer.

[Drew Dowdell]

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Toyota/Lexus are still the gold standard of cost of ownership and resale value in the eye of the consumer.

They’re dull as dishwater and their interiors of the consumer grade (Not LS/LX) models are really cheaped out for the price paid. The Accord has a nicer interior than an ES. Palisade/Telluride is nicer than RX/GX. Etc.

Dodge knows this is going to be a niche product, otherwise they would be building them in the US not Italy. They’re not targeting moms with 3 kids who are looking to replace their 11 year old CR-V.

[regfootball]

On 8/19/2022 at 3:26 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

The Encore and Encore GX are marvels of modern packaging. I can't think of any (ICE) platform from any other manufacturer that gave that much interior room in such a short space.  I genuinely liked my Encore's size when it was just the two of us, but as we now have to transport aging parents, it got too small for 4.

The Encore GX is very space efficient.  But, its got tiny motors!  Would love to see Encore GX available with at least the 1.5 liter four as an option.

The VW Taos is extremely space efficient; huge inside for the size / class.  If the exterior wasn't so dull on it I would even give it some thought.

Edited August 21, 2022 by regfootball

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They’re dull as dishwater and their interiors of the consumer grade (Not LS/LX) models are really cheaped out for the price paid. The Accord has a nicer interior than an ES. Palisade/Telluride is nicer than RX/GX. Etc.

Dodge knows this is going to be a niche product, otherwise they would be building them in the US not Italy. They’re not targeting moms with 3 kids who are looking to replace their 11 year old CR-V.

I just don't get how financially viable it is to have these brands with low volume, niche products like Dodge and Chrysler.  The Charger/300/Challenger are dead after this year, the Durango if it isn't, will be dead soon (although they could do a Grand Cherokee clone for a new one).  The 2024 Chrysler lineup is the Pacifica and the 2024 Dodge lineup is Hornet and maybe Durango.  And the Charger EV and Airflow probably arrive in 2025.  Doesn't seem like enough volume to justify either of those brands.   Especially since over at Jeep they will fill any market segment they can.

Toyota's interiors in general are better than GM, Ford or Stellantis in the same segment, with the exception being the 4Runner vs whatever you want to compare it to since that thing is so dated.  And that isn't what they are selling on, it is the cost of ownership, dependability and resale value that sells them.  A 10 year old Rav4 sells for about the same as a 10 year old Cadillac or Lincoln that probably cost twice as much when new.   Look at prices of a 10 year old Dodge/Chrysler, they are just about worthless because of how they fall apart.  

[Drew Dowdell]

38 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Toyota's interiors in general are better than GM, Ford or Stellantis in the same segment

No, not really anymore. Very plastic and creaky. Feels very cheap. The new Silverado / Sierra can blow away the Tundra. The new Canyon looks like it will do the same to the Tacoma. The RX isn’t even close to Enclave level. 
 

Only the LS / LX get decent quality interiors at Toyota these days.

1 hour ago, regfootball said:

The Encore GX is very space efficient.  But, its got tiny motors!  Would love to see Encore GX available with at least the 1.5 liter four as an option.

The VW Taos is extremely space efficient; huge inside for the size / class.  If the exterior wasn't so dull on it I would even give it some thought.

Yeah, the tiny motors are what kill the GX for me, but I have to admit they are probably the best use of space verse length you’ll find today.

[smk4565]

41 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No, not really anymore. Very plastic and creaky. Feels very cheap. The new Silverado / Sierra can blow away the Tundra. The new Canyon looks like it will do the same to the Tacoma. The RX isn’t even close to Enclave level. 
 

Only the LS / LX get decent quality interiors at Toyota these days.

Yeah, the tiny motors are what kill the GX for me, but I have to admit they are probably the best use of space verse length you’ll find today.

I would agree on the new Canyon/Colorado vs the current Tacoma since the Tacoma is as ancient as the 4Runner, but they have a new one next year so we'll see what happens.  The Tundra Capstone has the same leather from the Lexus LS, that's the best truck interior.  I don't think Toyota/Lexus interiors are class leading by any means, but their cars are well built and hold up over time and the Rav4 has a better interior than an Escape or Equinox the Highlander is better than an Explorer/Traverse.  Although I think Hyundai/Kia do a better interior than Toyota.

The Enclave/Acadia/Traverse are bottom feeders of the 3 row SUV segment.

[Drew Dowdell]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I would agree on the new Canyon/Colorado vs the current Tacoma since the Tacoma is as ancient as the 4Runner, but they have a new one next year so we'll see what happens.  The Tundra Capstone has the same leather from the Lexus LS, that's the best truck interior.  I don't think Toyota/Lexus interiors are class leading by any means, but their cars are well built and hold up over time and the Rav4 has a better interior than an Escape or Equinox the Highlander is better than an Explorer/Traverse.  Although I think Hyundai/Kia do a better interior than Toyota.

The Enclave/Acadia/Traverse are bottom feeders of the 3 row SUV segment.

LOL the Enclave is not a bottom feeder.  And fancy leather does not a quality interior make... in fact, if that is the only improvement they do, then it's a rather cynical and lazy upgrade to try and make that claim.

I mean...

This is an official Toyota press photo of the Tundra Capstone and I can see flaws in the fitting of the leather... uneven creases.  One seat almost has pleats while the other is flat.  If you look up photos of people who did reviews, you can see similar flaws. Just scroll through the interior pics to see them all. I'm also not a big fan of the seat styling... it looks like one designer did 2/3s and another designer did 1/3.  Aside from the two-tone, they don't look like anything special. That leather wrap on the a-pillar grab handle is just a cheap cynical addition to lipstick over the cheap plastic underneath. 

 

Verses the Silverado High Country.  I *really* like this new interior. It harkens back to the broad horizontal dashboards of yesteryear. It has a large screen, but it doesn't look like an iPad slapped on the dash with a holder from Wish like the Tundra does. It is far better integrated into the dash and doesn't look out of place. Oh look... it has Super Cruise too... something no Toyota has.  Notice no visible flaws in the leather.

 

Then there is the Sierra Denali. Gone are the days of identical interiors between the GMC and Chevy. The GMC moves the central HVAC vents and gets an extra storage cubby. The dash flows into the center console and the HVAC controls are at more of an angle. It has handsomely stitched leather and engraved open-pore wood.  Again the screen looks properly integrated rather than an iPad slapped on the dash.  

Much more handsome seats with tri-tone colors, and the same engraving pattern on the dash is replicated on the seats.  That pattern btw is the topographical map of the summit of Mount Denali. The a-pillar and b-pillar grab handles are fully leather wrapped and there is a microsuede headliner. 

 

 

 

Then there's the Lexus LX.....

That's luxury??   The Palisade and Telluride are better than that... easily. 

or try a Grand Wagoneer

or Yukon Denali

 

The days of bad domestic interiors are very much over. 

 

Now... these are all the top zoot luxury barges from their respective brands.... so back to the Hornet.

This looks perfectly acceptable for a sub-$30k small crossover with performance intentions.  

I looks remarkably similar to the Mazda CX-30 which is the most likely closest competitor.

 

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

LOL the Enclave is not a bottom feeder.  And fancy leather does not a quality interior make... in fact, if that is the only improvement they do, then it's a rather cynical and lazy upgrade to try and make that claim.

I mean...

This is an official Toyota press photo of the Tundra Capstone and I can see flaws in the fitting of the leather... uneven creases.  One seat almost has pleats while the other is flat.  If you look up photos of people who did reviews, you can see similar flaws. Just scroll through the interior pics to see them all. I'm also not a big fan of the seat styling... it looks like one designer did 2/3s and another designer did 1/3.  Aside from the two-tone, they don't look like anything special. That leather wrap on the a-pillar grab handle is just a cheap cynical addition to lipstick over the cheap plastic underneath. 

 

Verses the Silverado High Country.  I *really* like this new interior. It harkens back to the broad horizontal dashboards of yesteryear. It has a large screen, but it doesn't look like an iPad slapped on the dash with a holder from Wish like the Tundra does. It is far better integrated into the dash and doesn't look out of place. Oh look... it has Super Cruise too... something no Toyota has.  Notice no visible flaws in the leather.

 

Then there is the Sierra Denali. Gone are the days of identical interiors between the GMC and Chevy. The GMC moves the central HVAC vents and gets an extra storage cubby. The dash flows into the center console and the HVAC controls are at more of an angle. It has handsomely stitched leather and engraved open-pore wood.  Again the screen looks properly integrated rather than an iPad slapped on the dash.  

Much more handsome seats with tri-tone colors, and the same engraving pattern on the dash is replicated on the seats.  That pattern btw is the topographical map of the summit of Mount Denali. The a-pillar and b-pillar grab handles are fully leather wrapped and there is a microsuede headliner. 

 

 

 

Then there's the Lexus LX.....

That's luxury??   The Palisade and Telluride are better than that... easily. 

or try a Grand Wagoneer

or Yukon Denali

 

The days of bad domestic interiors are very much over. 

 

Now... these are all the top zoot luxury barges from their respective brands.... so back to the Hornet.

This looks perfectly acceptable for a sub-$30k small crossover with performance intentions.  

I looks remarkably similar to the Mazda CX-30 which is the most likely closest competitor.

 

GM interiors may look good new, but in 5-10 years the leather will crack, their seat bolster foam gets squashed, the button get rubbed away so you can't tell what it is, etc.  This is also my observation on current 10 year old GM interiors, so cars of the early 2010s, but the interiors are on those cars don't hold up, the resale value on them sucks, the rust proofing, the paint quality, doesn't hold up.  Now maybe 2022 GM cars have fixed all the quality, but we won't know for 10 years.

I agree the Lexus LX interior doesn't look good.  But when it's 20 years old it will still be on the road and being sold on Bring a Trailer for $25k despite having 250,000 miles on it, vs a 20 year old Escalade or Grand Wagoner will be rusting in a junk yard.

Toyota interiors I don't think are the best, but I think they are above average overall.  My original point was they kill it on the reliability and resale and cost of ownership metrics, and that keeps buyers coming back.

I think the Hornet interior is fine for the segment, I don't like the all black, but what they have there is on par for the segment.

[Drew Dowdell]

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

GM interiors may look good new, but in 5-10 years the leather will crack, their seat bolster foam gets squashed, the button get rubbed away so you can't tell what it is, etc.  This is also my observation on current 10 year old GM interiors, so cars of the early 2010s, but the interiors are on those cars don't hold up, the resale value on them sucks, the rust proofing, the paint quality, doesn't hold up.  Now maybe 2022 GM cars have fixed all the quality, but we won't know for 10 years.

I agree the Lexus LX interior doesn't look good.  But when it's 20 years old it will still be on the road and being sold on Bring a Trailer for $25k despite having 250,000 miles on it, vs a 20 year old Escalade or Grand Wagoner will be rusting in a junk yard.

Toyota interiors I don't think are the best, but I think they are above average overall.  My original point was they kill it on the reliability and resale and cost of ownership metrics, and that keeps buyers coming back.

I think the Hornet interior is fine for the segment, I don't like the all black, but what they have there is on par for the segment.

My Encore's interior was in perfect shape after 7 years and 113k miles, I got compliments on how nice it looked.  I think GM has only gotten better since then.

My observation of old Toyotas is that people love to overlook the flaws because it still starts and runs, and Toyota has a bad rep for rust, particularly in trucks and BOF SUV.  So sure that old LX might run, but the paint has pealed off, the headlight housings are dark yellow, the dash is cracked, and half the electronics don't work... but sure it runs.

[surreal1272]

12 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

My Encore's interior was in perfect shape after 7 years and 113k miles, I got compliments on how nice it looked.  I think GM has only gotten better since then.

My observation of old Toyotas is that people love to overlook the flaws because it still starts and runs, and Toyota has a bad rep for rust, particularly in trucks and BOF SUV.  So sure that old LX might run, but the paint has pealed off, the headlight housings are dark yellow, the dash is cracked, and half the electronics don't work... but sure it runs.

Going to have to interject a bit of this one. Are Toyotas perfect? Absolutely not. However, this bunk about old busted models deserve a retort. Here is a 2003 Lexus LX 470 with 203K miles (low for that year) and I see none of the issues that you seem to think they suffer. 
 

https://charlotte.craigslist.org/ctd/d/charlotte-2004-lexus-lx470-loaded-best/7523321702.html

 

And try another almost 20 year old LX. No headlight yellowing. No cracked dash and this also has more than 200K miles so it’s not Ike either of these were babied.  
https://greensboro.craigslist.org/ctd/d/greensboro-2003-lexus-lx-470/7517568006.html

 

I can find quite a few near 20 year 4-Runners that will shame the Trailblazer and Explorers of those years (mostly because you’ll find more left actually running after all this time). 
 

I get the criticisms but most are way overblown. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

7 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Going to have to interject a bit of this one. Are Toyotas perfect? Absolutely not. However, this bunk about old busted models deserve a retort. Here is a 2003 Lexus LX 470 with 203K miles (low for that year) and I see none of the issues that you seem to think they suffer. 
 

https://charlotte.craigslist.org/ctd/d/charlotte-2004-lexus-lx470-loaded-best/7523321702.html

 

And try another almost 20 year old LX. No headlight yellowing. No cracked dash and this also has more than 200K miles so it’s not Ike either of these were babied.  
https://greensboro.craigslist.org/ctd/d/greensboro-2003-lexus-lx-470/7517568006.html

 

I can find quite a few near 20 year 4-Runners that will shame the Trailblazer and Explorers of those years (mostly because you’ll find more left actually running after all this time). 
 

I get the criticisms but most are way overblown. 

You found southern survivors. And the average  LX/Land Cruiser buyer is a special breed of buyer. They have some of the highest average net worth, wealthy but not flashy.  They buy for the long haul and use the dealer for service. And while they could afford something new, they have no problem babying it to 200k before giving it to their son to take to Harvard as a legacy. 
 

Then once they hit the secondary market, their off-road capabilities and rareness get them scooped up by the Land Cruiser cult and either preserved or turned into overlanders.

So they spend more of their life babied than say, an Explorer, because of their rarity and capability.

But when they follow the normal aging process without the constant attention of a Toyota dealer, they deteriorate the same as any Camry LE, but with the added perk of frame rot.

Tahoes and Suburbans last just as long with more severe duty and more neglect, but no one cares to preserve them because there’s a zillion of them out there.

[surreal1272]

I’ve lived here most of my life and those are not “southern survivors”. Those are actually pretty typical around here. If you’re going bring up the rust issues, then it should be noted that those were only on early 2000 model Tacomas and Tundras. The LC and LX twins had no such reported issues and neither did the 4-Runner. It should be further noted that most 20 year trucks from the domestics suffered the same issues so there is that to consider as well. Again, compare them to other makes and models of those years and you’ll see how overblown these claims really are. That’s all I’m going to say about it.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

But when they follow the normal aging process without the constant attention of a Toyota dealer

I will gladly put a neglected 20 year old 4-Runner against any neglected Explorer or Trailblazer. 
 

We can act like it doesn’t exist, Toyota reliability, but that doesn’t make it so. Again, not saying they’re perfect but it is damn near laughable to act like they haven’t earned this reputation for long term reliability. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

It sucks how late they are to the party but, this seems like a pretty awesome package. It's probably too small for me to ever consider going forward but I still like it. 

[G. David Felt]

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

It sucks how late they are to the party but, this seems like a pretty awesome package. It's probably too small for me to ever consider going forward but I still like it. 

It will be interesting to see the packaging especially since it is built in Europe and shipped here. Limited sales, more like checking off a box for the company and reduce emissions.

[ccap41]

On 8/21/2022 at 2:27 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

They’re dull as dishwater and their interiors of the consumer grade (Not LS/LX) models are really cheaped out for the price paid.

And the general public seems to care less about that. I feel like anytime I'm around people or hear people talking about new vehicles the old phrase of "just get a Toyota XXX, it'll last forever" comes up. They definitely still seem to have that reputation. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

I’ve lived here most of my life and those are not “southern survivors”. Those are actually pretty typical around here. If you’re going bring up the rust issues, then it should be noted that those were only on early 2000 model Tacomas and Tundras. The LC and LX twins had no such reported issues and neither did the 4-Runner. It should be further noted that most 20 year trucks from the domestics suffered the same issues so there is that to consider as well. Again, compare them to other makes and models of those years and you’ll see how overblown these claims really are. That’s all I’m going to say about it.

I will gladly put a neglected 20 year old 4-Runner against any neglected Explorer or Trailblazer. 
 

We can act like it doesn’t exist, Toyota reliability, but that doesn’t make it so. Again, not saying they’re perfect but it is damn near laughable to act like they haven’t earned this reputation for long term reliability. 

LOL wut?  They were literally the subject of a class action and frame recall.

[surreal1272]

And that means what exactly @Drew Dowdell? I can search for a bunch of class action suits against otherwise supposedly dependable vehicles. Ford, alone, has countless suits from F Series owners. Does that make them junk or unreliable? Maybe. Maybe not. Bringing up this one suit doesn’t change what I said earlier about Toyota OVERALL (an important distinction). “Lol” indeed.

 

And I guess I lied when I said I was done but that merited at least one last response. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And that means what exactly @Drew Dowdell? I can search for a bunch of class action suits against otherwise supposedly dependable vehicles. Ford, alone, has countless suits from F Series owners. Does that make them junk or unreliable? Maybe. Maybe not. Bringing up this one suit doesn’t change what I said earlier about Toyota OVERALL (an important distinction). “Lol” indeed.

 

And I guess I lied when I said I was done but that merited at least one last response. 

I'm not saying that any one brand is better or worse when neglected. I'm saying that Toyota gets a lot of free passes, and the Land Cruiser in particular has a near cult like following, so when they enter the used market they are snapped up and given extra care.   No one seeks out a 15 year old Explorer to fix up because they're a dime a dozen.  But even me... yes, me, has an eye on an old Land Cruiser sitting at a buy here pay here lot nearby that I have the temptation to buy-fix-flip because I know I could get some cultist to pay top dollar for it with a little bit of investment and elbow grease on my part.

(the only reason I haven't is time and I haven't looked under the frame yet)

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm not saying that any one brand is better or worse when neglected. I'm saying that Toyota gets a lot of free passes, and the Land Cruiser in particular has a near cult like following, so when they enter the used market they are snapped up and given extra care.   No one seeks out a 15 year old Explorer to fix up because they're a dime a dozen.  But even me... yes, me, has an eye on an old Land Cruiser sitting at a buy here pay here lot nearby that I have the temptation to buy-fix-flip because I know I could get some cultist to pay top dollar for it with a little bit of investment and elbow grease on my part.

(the only reason I haven't is time and I haven't looked under the frame yet)

I would pass, being in the place of heavy road salt, bet it is heavily rusted/corroded. Seems the NE autos no matter who runs heavy rust/ corrosion. 

I do get the thought due to being the cult of Toyota Land Ceuisers is so true, they pay top dollar for an over rated SUV.

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, David said:

I would pass, being in the place of heavy road salt, bet it is heavily rusted/corroded. Seems the NE autos no matter who runs heavy rust/ corrosion. 

I do get the thought due to being the cult of Toyota Land Ceuisers is so true, they pay top dollar for an over rated SUV.

Land Cruisers aren't really overrated... I'm not saying that either.  What other SUV can stake you to the country club OR participate in the People's Liberation Army?

It's that Land Cruisers are rare, expensive, and have a mystique.  The Nissan Patrol/Armada is every bit as capable as the Land Cruiser, but no one collects Armadas. There's not a lot that Nissan gets right, but the 5.6 V8 is rock solid reliable. And as sad as it is, even the Armada/QX80 outsold the Land Cruiser/LX for the entire time it was on the market.

Tahoes, when properly equipped with the 2-speed transfer case and G80 rear locker like I have, can also be just as capable. They're build for extreme duty... they make optional special 12-volt batteries for them to handle long periods with the engine off (I have one) and they have a spot for a second battery if desired.  The Secret Service and many other law enforcement agencies use them. But no one cares because there's a zillion of them out there. No one collects and restores them because you can just go one car lot over to find a nicer one.  The only one remotely collectible is the Avalanche/EXT.

But when I say that Land Cruisers are rare, they only sold about 1,600 of them in 2011, and between 2,000 and 3,700  (typically 3k) per year since. Totaling 33,905 units in the eleven years since 2011.  GM moves that many Tahoes, Suburbans, and Yukons in seven weeks. GM builds more of those three (and not including the Escalade) in 6 months than all the Land Cruisers sold in the U.S ever. 

That's why people hang on to them and keep them pretty.