Cadillac News: Cadillac CELESTIQ Car Reveal

[G. David Felt]

Inspired by the 120-year heritage of Cadillac, the design and engineering teams have conceived what Cadillac's electric future will lead with in the CELESTIQ flagship sedan.

 Magalie Debellis, Manager for Cadillac Advanced Design had this to say about the CELESTIQ: 

“The CELESTIQ show car is the purest expression of Cadillac,” “It brings to life the most integrated expressions of design and innovation in the brand’s history, coalescing in a defining statement of a true Cadillac flagship.”

The Teams at Cadillac immersed themselves in the artisanship and customization as defined by early Cadillac sedans such as the bespoke V-16 powered coaches of the prewar era, the hand-built 1957 Eldorado Brougham, thus bring us to the culmination of heritage in the CELESTIQ with innovative production methods and the newest cutting edge technologies.

Inspiration was further pulled from what Cadillac considers a mid-century masterpieces of architect Eero Saarinen and other iconic American designs that made era-defining statements upon introduction and endured with distinctive timelessness.

Combining function and form in a beautiful package allows the Cadillac CELESTIQ to immerse the customer using all of their senses as they connect with the vehicle through the finest genuine materials, exceptional detailing and advanced technology.

This starts with high-definition, advanced LED interactive displays from the dash 55" diagonal display to the four other HD Displays in the auto.

Attention to details is what the CELESTIQ is all about.

Hand-crafted attention to detail is what harnesses the Cadillac vision for the future tied to innovative technologies such as an industry first variabl-transmission Smart Glass Roof and Ultra Cruise, General Motors next evolution of available hands-free driver assistance technology which Cadillac plans to offer on the CELESTIQ.

To quote the press release:

The Smart Glass Roof features Suspended Particle Device (SPD) technology that allows for four zones of variable lighting, enabling passengers to fine-tune their cabin experience for completely personalized comfort and visibility. Additionally, the 55-inch-diagonal advanced LED display introduces a passenger display with electronic digital blinds, an active privacy technology, which is designed to allow passengers to enjoy video content while blocking it from the view of the driver.

This advanced technology with exceptional detailing and the finest materials available is what will lead Cadillac into the next century.

Additional CELESTIQ details on the production model will be announced later in 2022.

View full article

[smk4565]

Looks too much like a station wagon, it doesn’t look expensive on the outside.  The inside is tacky but it’s a concept car and they’ll change that and make it more normal on the production version.

I guess they don’t want to talk power or performance until the production version is shown.

[ccap41]

"awful" is too strong of a word for this but I think the front 3/4 looks fantastic but I'm not a fan of the rear 1/4. 

I just don't dig the big cruiser vibe (and intention) with a coupe-like rear end. The same body shape of a Panamera, which I've always thought was just "bulky" looking, because it was a coupe-like shape but stretched into a sedan. 

[Robert Hall]

The rear quarter is my favorite part, esp. in profile. I like the long hatchback shape, instead of a predictable 3 box sedan profile.   Huge blind spots, though..kind of wonder if it needed windows in the back hatch side triangles...looks like the upper taillights are part of the hatch (the seam that goes down the side)...I like the red interior, instead of the usual despair gray or black that GM does so much of..

Edited July 22, 2022 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Looks too much like a station wagon, it doesn’t look expensive on the outside.  The inside is tacky but it’s a concept car and they’ll change that and make it more normal on the production version.

I guess they don’t want to talk power or performance until the production version is shown.

Hey Biff, how is this any different than the station wagons Mercedes is putting out. If anything, this is a hybrid between a station wagon and a sedan with at least a luxury look to it.

Way better looking than the EQS which is just a BLAH Jellybean and has a hideous interior. This at least look's Luxury in comparison to Mercedes.

Power and Performance, Mercedes did not talk about it till the production came out and it is anything but class leading after all it is supposed to be a luxury executive auto, not a race car.

So let's compare:

CELESTIQ

EQS

CELESTIQ Interior, Only dash available.

EQS Top of the line Dash

EQS most common dash ordered.

 

CELESTIQ is a Home Run Hit for Luxury and I think the reviews will prove it when this auto goes into production.

[ccap41]

I much prefer a station wagon OR a sedan.  Please don't blend them. 

[ccap41]

I know neither of these are in the same league as a 300k luxury barge but their profiles are sooooo much better, imo. 

Top: Lucid Aid

Bottom: Tesla Model S

[G. David Felt]

22 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I much prefer a station wagon OR a sedan.  Please don't blend them. 

I understand that you and others might feel that way, but in the 21st century, all bets are off on how and where auto companies move with autos. 

We had SUV or CUV and now CUV is just called SUV, so I think change is the one inevitable thing.

 

Lucid is nice, Tesla is ugly to me.

I am digging the look of the CELESTIQ. It truly stands out compared to other autos, especially the Mercedes which I think is going to get lost as others bring out luxury EVs to base EVs.

[ccap41]

6 minutes ago, David said:

I understand that you and others might feel that way, but in the 21st century, all bets are off on how and where auto companies move with autos. 

We had SUV or CUV and now CUV is just called SUV, so I think change is the one inevitable thing.

Lucid is nice, Tesla is ugly to me.

I am digging the look of the CELESTIQ. It truly stands out compared to other autos, especially the Mercedes which I think is going to get lost as others bring out luxury EVs to base EVs.

The shape isn't new, it's just an ugly shape. 

[G. David Felt]

10 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The shape isn't new, it's just an ugly shape. 

Agree Porches is not that great, I put it with Tesla, EQS as ugly to me.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, David said:

So let's compare:

Don't bother. The "criticize anything by GM but free pass Benz for greater design offenses" in him is not going to give an objective opinion here. Somehow, basic and lazy jellybean design will win out from the "best or nothing".

 

Fact is that this is not like anything Cadillac has put out before and that is how it should be. Again, aiming higher. I'm not a huge fan of the windless rear pillar area but I sure as hell would not kick this out of the driveway if it just mysteriously popped up one morning. 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

windless rear pillar area

"Windowless" rear pillar area (thanks again ADHD)

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, David said:

Hey Biff, how is this any different than the station wagons Mercedes is putting out. If anything, this is a hybrid between a station wagon and a sedan with at least a luxury look to it.

Way better looking than the EQS which is just a BLAH Jellybean and has a hideous interior. This at least look's Luxury in comparison to Mercedes.

Power and Performance, Mercedes did not talk about it till the production came out and it is anything but class leading after all it is supposed to be a luxury executive auto, not a race car.

So let's compare:

CELESTIQ

EQS

CELESTIQ Interior, Only dash available.

EQS Top of the line Dash

EQS most common dash ordered.

 

CELESTIQ is a Home Run Hit for Luxury and I think the reviews will prove it when this auto goes into production.

I am not an EQS fan, but I think the EQS looks better than the Celistiq.  The Celistiq looks more like Cadillac's take on an Audi RS6 Avant (which the Audi looks better too) and not their take on a Bentley or Rolls.  Also the EQS isn't the flagship Mercedes, this is:

And it's the only certified Level 3 self driving car available.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Also the EQS isn't the flagship Mercedes, this is:

It is currently their flagship EV sedan. We are clearly talking about EVs here.

Edited July 23, 2022 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I am not an EQS fan, but I think the EQS looks better than the Celistiq.  The Celistiq looks more like Cadillac's take on an Audi RS6 Avant (which the Audi looks better too) and not their take on a Bentley or Rolls.  Also the EQS isn't the flagship Mercedes, this is:

And it's the only certified Level 3 self driving car available.  

You FAIL again in trying to put up an ICE which IS NOT Mercedes Flagship EV.

EQS is the FAILED Flagshiop EV by Benz.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And it's the only certified Level 3 self driving car available.  

The Level 3 tech is nice and quite impressive but I don't know that I would ever trust ANY self driving system that much. There has to be some driver input IMO but this is where it's headed so ready or not folks. 

 

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

It is currently their flagship EV sedan. We are clearly talking about EVs here.

Both exist though.  If I were buying a car now, I'd prefer and EV since I think that's the future and I'll for sticking a middle at foreign oil.  But I'd buy an E-class or S-class over an EQE or EQS because the EQE and EQS don't look good, and the E-class and S-class do look good.  Also aren't enough EV's out there yet, not many body styles to pick from, most brands have 1 or none to pick from.   So that Celestiq still has to compete with the Rolls and Bentleys that are out there now, they aren't only competing against Lucid or the EQS, and really they don't compete against Lucid, the Lucid Air is .4 inches longer than the last Cadillac CTS.  The Celestiq I assume is way larger than a Lucid or Model S.

 

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

You FAIL again in trying to put up an ICE which IS NOT Mercedes Flagship EV.

EQS is the FAILED Flagshiop EV by Benz.

The EQS isn't the top Mercedes, the S-class, G-wagen, AMG GT, Maybach GLS all cost more, the SL isn't priced yet, but it will cost more.  EQS is like 5th in the pecking order at Mercedes.

 And it is going fine, they sold 4,048 YTD in the USA, which is more than the Lexus LS or BMW 7-Series and 8-series, or Audi A8 or Porsche Panamera.  Porsche Taycan sold 4,449 thus far.  And the S-class is still the #1 selling large luxury car (outsells 7-series, LS, A8 and Panamera combined).  So EQS isn't doing too bad considering it is the #3 selling full size luxury car, with #1 in the same showroom stealing sales from it.   Although the Taycan is actually a mid-size, the EQE is the same size as the Taycan, but Taycan is EQS price.

Edited July 23, 2022 by smk4565

[regfootball]

Wow, I wasn’t expecting this. 
 

I really dig the profile and styling. Fresh, unique, interesting. Makes the Tesla and Lucid look flabby and dated. Makes the Mercedes look ridiculous. 
 

still may not justify the price but that long roof coupe / wagon look I really really like. 

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Both exist though.

For gods sake man, stop splitting hairs. This article is about an EV so clearly we are just talking about EVs here and not the unrelated ICE Maybach. It's really that simple.

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Although the Taycan is actually a mid-size, the EQE is the same size as the Taycan, but Taycan is EQS price.

Full stop. The EQE will start just north of $70K. The Taycan starts at $86K. The EQS starts at $102K. Point here is that the Taycan IS NOT EQS price. Stop trying to puff up your brand. Although, I guess I should say congrats to the S-Class for being only one of two models from Benz to show a year over gain from the same quarter 2021. Everything else is in the "-" column so far.

Edited July 23, 2022 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a40679950/cadillac-celestiq-concept/

 

I read this article comprehending  this is still a show car.  There are one or two direct mentioning of it being a show car, but more than that, the way the article is written, it makes me believe that these pics may not be 100% the Celestiq that will eventually BE the Celestiq.  

The exterior styling may not just be a stylistic exercise, as it is presented to us as how the Celestiq will actually look albeit with minor changes, I believe.  The fast back silhouette and hatch and front and all that will probably be final and 99% intact.  

The interior pics are definitely renderings though.

With that being said, I like it!

Love the front. I like the rear less. 

I dont mind the fastback look. I dont mind the hatch styling. Wish it were more of a squarish design rather than a rounded one. But it's worthy of a Cadillac design for a halo vehicle being the priciest Caddy ever.  

The Tesla Model S was a sexy car when it came out a decade ago.  Its still a great looking vehicle today. It has aged well enough, albeit it is long in the tooth. It has been since 3 years ago at least.  It needs to have a 2nd generation.

The Audi E Tron GT is very sexy.  Like the Karma Fisker before it.  But both of those dont figure in the Celestiq realm of motoring.  Too sporty.  Not enough classy.

The Lucid Air is a welcomed, classy design to counter the ugliness of the Mercedes offerings and the now old styling of the Model S. The problem with the Lucid Air and the Mercedes offerings is that they do 1990s retro very well.  Not very forward.

When the Lucid Air is put side to side with the Celestiq, the Air looks dated very quickly.  BECAUSE the Air looks like it came straight from 1999...  Like it would be an Oldsmobile of some sort.  One that  Saturn could badge engineer and sell also...

 

I read that it is rumored to have more than 300 miles of range... 

With all the luxurious accents and finishes and touches aside with the bespoke this and the bespoke handcrafted that,  north of 300 miles is not merely good enough for 300 grand.   North of 500 mile range should be the goal and maybe Cadillac is being less than truthful about the rumored 300 mile range.  Hopefully north of 500 mile range is what it will have.     People look at numbers and 300 for 300 grand may leave people unimpressed when a Lucid Air has 500 and the Air seems to do the luxury thing quite well...    Mercedes also seems to have unlocked that kind of range 500 mile range as well...   That would be my only gripe.   

Ultium better be better for range because range is the new horsepower wars since EVs have no problem achieving horsepowers... 

 

Slick Black Cadillacs are BACK!!!!

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

 

The literal shyt two tone paint on this thing aside, (personal taste paint choice, I get it,) this generation of S Class is ugly.

Conservative does not mean, nor does it imply, or need to be ugly.  I get the fact that the old money guard does not want to advertise or flaunt wealth. I know many of the many reasons why...    And I know that the S Class caters to this wealthy class of people and it has so for a long time now.  But Ill repeat, conservative styling does not mean, nor does it imply, or need to be ugly. And this generation of S Class is quite the hideous thing.   Its actually uglier than a Rolls Royce.

 

But the Rolls has one thing above the S Class.  Its imposing and its stately and it majestic.   OK, the Rolls has 3 things over the S Class.  Make it 4.  The Rolls also has the NAME behind that royalty!   

The S Class wants to live in the melted bar of soapy aero styling of a 1986 Ford Taurus and of GM's and Chrysler's 1990s stylistic offerings! 

The Celestiq is  way way better stylistically than ANY sedan Mercedes offering right now.

Mercedes better get its shyte together because I see Cadillac in the EV future restoring its place in the luxury world and displacing Mercedes and leaving Mercedes to compete with Chevrolet.  And even there, Chevy styling is so much better than Mercedes.

 

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

The literal shyt two tone paint on this thing aside, (personal taste paint choice, I get it,) this generation of S Class is ugly.

Conservative does not mean, nor does it imply, or need to be ugly.  I get the fact that the old money guard does not want to advertise or flaunt wealth. I know many of the many reasons why...    And I know that the S Class caters to this wealthy class of people and it has so for a long time now.  But Ill repeat, conservative styling does not mean, nor does it imply, or need to be ugly. And this generation of S Class is quite the hideous thing.   Its actually uglier than a Rolls Royce.

 

 

This generation S-class is outselling the Lexus LS, 7-series, A8, GV90 and Panamera combined this year.  I don't see any other car outselling the rest of its segment.  

And I think the Rolls Phantom looks quite good, better than the Ghost or the Bentleys.

[surreal1272]

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

This generation S-class is outselling the Lexus LS, 7-series, A8, GV90 and Panamera combined this year.  I don't see any other car outselling the rest of its segment.  

Not sure this is the hill you want to die on when this particular market is the very definition of the "word" niche, with low volume cars aplomb. 

 

Oh and the GV90 is a CUV so...

Edited July 23, 2022 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

I don't see Lucid as a big threat, they have no dealers, no charger network like Tesla, no real support system.  And they have 1 car selling at low volume.  Low volume car companies don't work, look at how often companies like Lotus and Aston Martin, are constantly in financial trouble, Jaguar gets passed around to new ownership ever 15-20 years.  Brands like Rolls, Bentley, Lamborghini, could never make it on their own, they have to be owned and developed by a big conglomerate or else they wouldn't exist.   Lucid will eventually not have the money to develop cars, develop infotainment, self driving tech, etc.  Even Tesla who has money, has a 10 year old Model S still out there because they don't have the time or money to make an all new version.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Not sure this is the hill you want to die on when this particular market is the very definition of the "word" niche, with low volume cars aplomb. 

 

Oh and the GV90 is a CUV so...

G90 I meant. 

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And they have 1 car selling at low volume.  Low volume car companies don't work, look at how often companies like Lotus and Aston Martin, are constantly in financial trouble, Jaguar gets passed around to new ownership ever 15-20 years.  Brands like Rolls, Bentley, Lamborghini, could never make it on their own, they have to be owned and developed by a big conglomerate or else they wouldn't exist.

You better include Mercedes in that group, bud.

The reasoning why they merged with Chrysler...

The reasoning why they are going down market in the US when in the US they were ALWAYS upscale.  'Twas only in their home market in Europe that Mercedes needed to be like Dodge and Chevrolet. But NOT in the good ole USofA. 

Mercedes, despite as you put it, the S Class out selling its direct competition, it aint doing too hot in the upmarket...

Mercedes sales are great in Europe with their low to mid level market.  Its low end stuff.  Hence why they want to replicate that in the US market. And once Mercedes gets American people thinking that Mercedes is at Hyundai and Kia levels, Mercedes is toast.  As I said before, Chevrolet sells more 50 000 dollar vehicles than Mercedes does in the US...

The Lyriq and Celestiq 

 

have a new Cadillac design language, front and back actually,  that seems to have clicked with people.  Cadillac has fixed their quality and their luxury and that means Cadillac is finally on its way in reprising their standard that they flubbed on. 

The V cars actually have a cult following.  A cult following that resembles the fervor of BMW M cars, Mercedes AMG cars and Teslas...

Mercedes is actually, ironically, at the crossroads of where GM and Cadillac were in the 1990s and Cadillac and Chevrolet to a lesser degree is where BMW and Mercedes were in the US in the 1990s.

My my my,  how have the roles reversed...  

 

[riviera74]

TBH, I prefer the exterior of the Lyriq over the Celestiq.  If the interior of the Celestiq concept is largely carried into production, Cadillac should have a winner on its hands, EV or not.

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't see Lucid as a big threat,

You should.

Lucid has built a better, faster, more pleasing luxury EV than Mercedes has.

Lucid has caught the attention of many would be luxury EV buyers.  

Tesla has stole plenty of upscale Mercedes clientele with midlevel interiors.  

Lucid has equaled and bettered Mercedes upscale interiors with matching state of the art EV tech and with glitzy gimmicky EV specific techno interiors.   

Mercedes does also, but with a very stale, dated, ugly melted soap aero styling of the '80s and '90s'.  As does the Lucid Air, but the Air is much much more modern lookin'.  A more advanced 1990s.   The Mercedes is just sooooo...dated.  

The Celestiq actually looks like what the future of what an inspiring luxury EV should look like.

The Lyriq actually looks like what a real luxury EV should look like. 

Cadillac has upped their game on all levels of what it means to be luxury in the new world past 2020  and in the new world of EVs.

Sucks to be you in all that GM hatin' and the Mercedes' lovin'

Seems like I no longer live in the past of  Cadillac land yacht barges but 'tis you that lives in the Jurassic Park 1990s glory days of when Mercedes could do no wrong...with Chrysler money no less...

 

But I havent forgotten that Mercedes knew they needed to go down market in the US even since then...

Maybe you have suppressed these memories.  I havent.  

 

And now, they actually peddle FWD cars here in the US...

Front phoquing wheel drive.  

Like a phoquing J Body Cavalier...

 

Oh yeah....that is a Cadillac...

Just for reference to what Mercedes sells in that Cimarron market. 

we give a pass to Mercedes though... 

Cheap ass thing....

 

But that seems like soooooo phoquing loooooong ago...

small Cadillac in 2022

 small Mercedes in 2022

 

The Cavalier hatch looks better...from 1985 for phoques sake... 

and that A class shyte box is EXACTLY in what market class the Cavalier was sold too.

Phoquing pathetic... 

Edited July 24, 2022 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

You better include Mercedes in that group, bud.

The reasoning why they merged with Chrysler...

The reasoning why they are going down market in the US when in the US they were ALWAYS upscale.  'Twas only in their home market in Europe that Mercedes needed to be like Dodge and Chevrolet. But NOT in the good ole USofA. 

Mercedes, despite as you put it, the S Class out selling its direct competition, it aint doing too hot in the upmarket...

Mercedes sales are great in Europe with their low to mid level market.  Its low end stuff.  Hence why they want to replicate that in the US market. And once Mercedes gets American people thinking that Mercedes is at Hyundai and Kia levels, Mercedes is toast.  As I said before, Chevrolet sells more 50 000 dollar vehicles than Mercedes does in the US...

The Lyriq and Celestiq 

 

have a new Cadillac design language, front and back actually,  that seems to have clicked with people.  Cadillac has fixed their quality and their luxury and that means Cadillac is finally on its way in reprising their standard that they flubbed on. 

The V cars actually have a cult following.  A cult following that resembles the fervor of BMW M cars, Mercedes AMG cars and Teslas...

Mercedes is actually, ironically, at the crossroads of where GM and Cadillac were in the 1990s and Cadillac and Chevrolet to a lesser degree is where BMW and Mercedes were in the US in the 1990s.

My my my,  how have the roles reversed...  

 

That's all fantasyland.   Mercedes-Benz had higher revenue than GM or Honda in 2021.  Mercedes-Benz is not a small car company like Lucid, Aston Martin, Lotus, or even Mazda.  They don't need a partner, don't have to worry about being too small or not being able to scale volume like Rivian or Lucid will have to worry about.

Mercedes is scrapping the A-class in the USA.   The S-class outsells all competitors combined, the G-wagen is going for like $200k on the used market, in the up market they are the most in demand brand.   The AMG GT starts over $100k, goes over $300k (the Nurburgring record holder), GT 4-door is $100-200k (the 4-door vehicle Nurburgring record holder), a $3 million hyper car that will become the Nurburgring record holder.    They have Maybach SL, Maybach EQS, Maybach EQS SUV coming, and a Mythos sub-brand that will be above Maybach and build custom made and one-off cars.

Chevrolet sells more vehicles over $50k than Cadillac does, so does Ford.  Meaningless statistic. 

Cadillac quality better than Lexus?   XT5 more reliable and with better resale than a Lexus RX350?  

10-15 years ago people made the argument that Cadillac is back because they had a 556 hp CTS-V, a 469 hp STS-V, the XLR, an Escalade doing well, then 5 years ago it was a 640 hp CTS-V, another new Escalade, the CT6 "flagship" and people said Cadillac is back and Cadillac sales are worse now than they were then, and pretty much all those products aside from the Escalade are gone.  10 years from now, the Lyriq, Celestiq and Formulayiq small crossover will all be dead, the Escalade will still be there (in EV form) and there will be a new GM at Cadillac and another renaissance 5 year turn around plan bing announced.  

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes-Benz had higher revenue than GM or Honda in 2021.

Talk about fantasy land.

you havent realized that Cadillac is kicking Mercedes ATPs since 2020.

And the thing is, even when all car makers' ATPs have shot up since Covid, Cadillac's have skyrocketed and widened the gap that much more against Mercedes. 

https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2021-10-13-Average-New-Vehicle-Transaction-Prices-Top-45,000-for-First-Time,-According-to-Kelley-Blue-Book

Makes	September 2021 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	August 2021 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	September 2020 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	Percent Change August 2021 to September 2021*	Percent Change September 2020 to September 2021*
Acura	$48,105	$48,297	$39,900	-0.4%	20.6%
Alfa Romeo	$48,549	$48,458	$44,965	0.2%	8.0%
Audi	$57,547	$56,806	$54,718	1.3%	5.2%
BMW	$65,043	$63,713	$60,418	2.1%	7.7%
Buick	$36,319	$35,086	$34,185	3.5%	6.2%
Makes	September 2021 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	August 2021 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	September 2020 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	Percent Change August 2021 to September 2021*	Percent Change September 2020 to September 2021*
Cadillac	$81,938	$75,399	$54,202	8.7%	51.2%
Chevrolet	$50,451	$47,095	$40,903	7.1%	23.3%
Chrysler	$45,387	$44,622	$40,434	1.7%	12.3%
Dodge	$45,052	$42,637	$38,048	5.7%	18.4%
Fiat	$27,726	$27,032	$28,303	2.6%	-2.0%
Ford	$50,853	$51,446	$45,677	-1.2%	11.3%
Genesis	$60,087	$59,148	$46,328	1.6%	29.7%
GMC	$61,557	$58,042	$54,182	6.1%	13.6%
Honda	$33,915	$32,983	$29,284	2.8%	15.8%
Hyundai	$33,390	$32,879	$29,644	1.6%	12.6%
Infiniti	$52,873	$51,962	$46,679	1.8%	13.3%
Jaguar	$73,893	$69,477	$59,058	6.4%	25.1%
Jeep	$44,445	$44,340	$39,906	0.2%	11.4%
Kia	$33,036	$31,892	$29,637	3.6%	11.5%
Land Rover	$86,757	$85,056	$80,195	2.0%	8.2%
Lexus	$53,316	$51,261	$50,374	4.0%	5.8%
Lincoln	$62,394	$61,751	$57,782	1.0%	8.0%
Mazda	$34,144	$32,831	$30,103	4.0%	13.4%
Mercedes-Benz	$75,369	$74,885	$59,899	0.6%	25.8%
Mini	$35,534	$35,580	$32,929	-0.1%	7.9%
Mitsubishi	$28,978	$28,753	$23,415	0.8%	23.8%
Nissan	$33,376	$32,407	$29,700	3.0%	12.4%
Porsche	$102,397	$100,747	$96,118	1.6%	6.5%
Ram	$55,383	$54,051	$51,549	2.5%	7.4%
Subaru	$33,911	$34,804	$31,911	-2.6%	6.3%
Tesla	$55,085	$54,538	$54,270	1.0%	1.5%
Toyota	$38,592	$36,743	$33,608	5.0%	14.8%
Volkswagen	$34,992	$35,105	$30,594	-0.3%	14.4%
Volvo	$54,903	$53,767	$48,604	2.1%	13.0%
Industry	$ 45,031	$ 43,418	$ 40,159	3.7%	12.1%

 

And the A Class is being scrapped in the US?

Another failure for Mercedes in the US market.

And the real thing that should hit you hard is that Cadillac is going UPMARKET while stabilizing their sales and Mercedes is trying to sell more while going DOWNMARKET.

Cadillac doesnt need, or want at this juncture to increase low end sales, Chevrolet is there for that. But Mercedes needs to try and steal sales from Chevy to do so...

And while it seems that Mercedes also has 500 mile range EV capability, as does GM, GM and Cadillac have what it really takes to sell cars...

This is frumpier, uglier and more dated than the Model Y from Tesla is...

And this is a fresh design.  The Model Y is from 2017 as its a sister design to its sedan counterpart. The Model 3.  

 

I think folk, even Euro loving freaks, will be embarrassed to be seen in that EQA that will replace the better looking (believe it or not) A Class that was a phoquing failure (yeah, not that hard to believe)....

You might not think so, but you are also an ass kissing mercedes fanboi, but the Equinox EV  CUV  is eons ahead in design against that EQA

 

good luck to Mercedes trying to capture any sales in this market with the ugly shyte they are gonna peddle

And I sensed fear when I read you werent impressed by this

 And you ought to be scared....

what in the holy heaven do you see beauty in any Mercedes design the last 10 years?

The phoque is this mid 2000s design?

It looks like a  1st gen Edge from 2007

 

NOT the way forward....

And what the phoque is this shyte?

 

or this?

 

But you have problems with the Blazer?

The thing is, even Hyundais and Kias look better

 And how is this pertinent to Mercedes?

Well, its MERCEDES that wants to go downmarket.    Its a great danger that they will fail BIG TIME, bud! 

All the influencer, content creator youtubers out there, the actual CURRENT purveyors of what is the next cool marque simply dont talk about Mercedes.  Cadillac is actually on their radar...believe it or not.  

Tough times up ahead for Mercedes.  Cadillac too, had that blind aura in the 1990s with their brand new sexy FWD STS... and the deealerships were sooooooo happy.    The Brougham was featured in Seinfeld, the STS and Northstar were killing it.  The Cimarron was finally buried in the mid 80s as this is now the mid 1990s.  

yet somehow you wanna brush under the rug yet another compact entry low class car from Mercedes..  

You are pathetic, SMK...

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Chevrolet sells more vehicles over $50k than Cadillac does, so does Ford.  Meaningless statistic. 

So is pointing out the revenue for Benz vs GM yet that didn’t stop you from mentioning it. Fact is when the numbers don’t line your way, you always say something like that so maybe look in the mirror next time before talking about a “meaningless statistic”. 

[oldshurst442]

https://www.benzinsider.com/2022/06/is-mercedes-benz-losing-its-prestige-as-a-luxury-car-brand/

 

Benzinsider.com 

an opinion piece responding to the CNBC opinion piece of "If Mercedes is losing its prestige as a luxury car brand" video CNBC made in April of 2021.  The Benzinsider piece was written on June 2022.  THIS YEAR...

Meaning, the CNBC video touched some nerves that couldnt be ignored...

1. Quality Control Issues

 

One of its contentions is that the brand has suffered quality control issues over the years as it struggled with its electronic components and its predisposition to cut production costs. We would like to add that this still happens based on the frequent recalls it has announced in the past couple of years.

2. Dilution of Exclusivity Due to Aggressive Market Expansion

Another is that over the years, the efforts of the company were mainly focused on boosting the volume of its products to capture more market share. With that, Merc has been enticing younger buyers by making less expensive vehicles with lesser luxury features. However, such a strategy was not always successful as with the case of the C-Class Sport Coupe in 2002, which failed miserably in the market resulting to its discontinuation in 2006. It should be noted that the same thing happened when the brand dipped into the luxury pickup truck segment through the short-lived Mercedes-Benz X-Class. These and the presence of so many vehicles in its lineup tend to dilute its exclusivity as a brand, too.

3. SUVs Don’t Inspire the Same Level of Interest as Its Cars

Moreover, the source stated that its SUVs don’t inspire the same level of interest as its passenger cars. This may be attributed to the presence of formidable rivals in the industry, including BMW, Audi, and Lexus, not to mention that some of the said brands sometimes have products that are almost alike design-wise such as the Mercedes GLE, BMW X5, BMW X3, Audi Q5, and Lexus RX. Add the fact that Merc has initially held back from introducing its hottest SUVs from Europe into the US like in the case of the GLC so it missed out on its huge demand there.

4. Losing Ground in the US Luxury Vehicle Market

CNBC further cited Benz lagging in the third position in terms of the number of luxury vehicles sold in the U.S. Citing 2020 data, BMW was on the top of the list selling 278.9K units, Lexus on second with 275K sold, and Merc on the third spot with 274.9K sales. Nevertheless, it should be recalled that Mercedes remains the top-selling luxury vehicle brand in the world.

(my take on that....

BULLSHYTE!  That misinformation is always spewed as Mercedes sells downmarket vehicles in Europe like GM does with Chevrolet, and now they are doing that in North America, but Benz biased related articles want to disinform us and spew lies.  The reason why CNBC did that video in the first place is to showcase how downmarket Benz has REALLY gone...as in REASON #2...) 

5. Fall in Profits

Next, the presenter took into account a time in 2019 when Daimler, the then-parent of Mercedes, saw its profits fall by $5 billion due to its involvement in the Dieselgate scandal and electrification R&D. If its EV investments fail to produce favorable results in the years to come, it could threaten the confidence of its shareholders.

6. Strong Competition in the EV Market

Speaking of electrification, the brand has to struggle amid strong competition in the EV market. One of which is Tesla, and the entry of many other brands in the segment, particularly the cheaper Chinese EVs.

Based on McKinsey’s Electric Vehicle Index, Tesla holds a 16% global market share EV. Mercedes is not even in the top 10 list of the data as of 2019. Its traditional rival, BMW, made it but most entries came from Chinese EV makers. When it comes to China, which has the largest demand for EV nowadays, Merc also has to watch out for its local EV brands.

7. The Tesla Threat

An interesting fact that was pointed out by the video was the tendency of the top German luxury automakers (Mercedes, BMW, and Audi who own a 60% slice of the Chinese market) to drop their overall market share advantage whenever Tesla opens up a new store in a location. From the looks of it, Tesla is aiming to maximize its exposure by opening up more international dealerships in the years to come, thus, if the trend continues, it will be one hell of a ride for the German luxury brands.

Furthermore, Merc takes more time to develop its EV models due to its high standard and efforts to make it right the first time, which are not exactly a bad thing. However, competitors like Tesla are moving quicker and more adventurous when it comes to exploring tech that other automakers are reluctant to adopt. The state-of-the-art tech is usually what attracts younger buyers to the American brand.

Nonetheless, Tesla is far from secure in the American market because EVs still comprise a small percentage of total vehicle sales in the US.

(another misinformation bullshytting.... 

Not only Tesla, but GM and Hyundai/Kia,  Lucid, RIVIAN and all others...    The thing is, Mercedes WANTS to go downmarket, and their EV offerings are all ugly anywhere in the price spectrum.   #6 reason...  

But this author, like you @smk4565, glances over straight out facts and tries to lie to counter...)

[oldshurst442]

Benzinsider take on it though:

Our Take

We agree with most of the arguments presented by CNBC about Mercedes-Benz losing its prestige over the years because several of them have been manifesting within the brand already. Then again, it’s worth mentioning that the data offered from several sources were two or three years from the present, and since then, Mercedes has made big leaps in its marketing, particularly in its EV development.

So far, the German automaker is enjoying success in its Mercedes-Benz GLC SUV with 51,805 units sold in 2021, and 16,910 units sold in the first quarter of 2022 and is about to roll out its next-generation model for the range in dealerships.

Lastly, the three-pointed star marque just made big strides in its electrification via the triumphant demonstration of the Mercedes-Benz Vision EQXX, which recently displayed an actual range of 747 miles on a single charge. The said car serves as a preview of what the brand has in store for its EV units going forward.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

they agree, but glance over the problems.... 

they say 2 or 3 years from the present as 2 or 3 years is pre-history....

They site sales of a particular SUV as a measure for prestige yet reasons #2, #3 and #4 all contradict their glancing over facts...to which they agree to anyway...

 

Its gonna be hard to be a Mercedes fanboi in the next decade...

 

2. Dilution of Exclusivity Due to Aggressive Market Expansion

Another is that over the years, the efforts of the company were mainly focused on boosting the volume of its products to capture more market share. With that, Merc has been enticing younger buyers by making less expensive vehicles with lesser luxury features. However, such a strategy was not always successful as with the case of the C-Class Sport Coupe in 2002, which failed miserably in the market resulting to its discontinuation in 2006. It should be noted that the same thing happened when the brand dipped into the luxury pickup truck segment through the short-lived Mercedes-Benz X-Class. These and the presence of so many vehicles in its lineup tend to dilute its exclusivity as a brand, too.

3. SUVs Don’t Inspire the Same Level of Interest as Its Cars

Moreover, the source stated that its SUVs don’t inspire the same level of interest as its passenger cars. This may be attributed to the presence of formidable rivals in the industry, including BMW, Audi, and Lexus, not to mention that some of the said brands sometimes have products that are almost alike design-wise such as the Mercedes GLE, BMW X5, BMW X3, Audi Q5, and Lexus RX. Add the fact that Merc has initially held back from introducing its hottest SUVs from Europe into the US like in the case of the GLC so it missed out on its huge demand there.

4. Losing Ground in the US Luxury Vehicle Market

CNBC further cited Benz lagging in the third position in terms of the number of luxury vehicles sold in the U.S. Citing 2020 data, BMW was on the top of the list selling 278.9K units, Lexus on second with 275K sold, and Merc on the third spot with 274.9K sales.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/mercedes-loses-premium-sales-crown-bmw-chip-shortage-hits-deliveries#:~:text=Mercedes-Benz sold 2.05 million,year%2C parent Daimler said Friday.

January 07, 2022 09:18 AM

Mercedes loses premium sales crown to BMW, as chip shortage hits deliveries

First time in five years that the BMW has outsold its German rival

Mercedes-Benz sold 2.05 million passenger vehicles globally in 2021, losing its crown as the world's top-selling luxury brand to BMW.

It's the first time in five years that the BMW brand has outsold Mercedes.

Sales of Mercedes brand passenger cars fell 5 percent to 2.05 units last year, parent Daimler said Friday.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glance over facts...  its a Mercedes thing with their sales folk, marketing folk and fanbois ,  to misinform and propaganda their way to success.  

Edited July 24, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

The 300 000 dollar plus price tag and the thought of a bespoke everything, handcrafted halo vehicle that will be the Celestiq is what is greatly missing in Cadillac's showroom to showcase that Cadillac is truly in the business of making prestige vehicles. 

For far too long, Cadillac peddled the wrong car, the wrong price tag and in the wrong market niche to establish itself amongst the top premium brands. 

Cadillac made the decision to go down market and go after sales in the late '70s or early '80s and almost immediately bit them in the ass.   

They did eventually see the glaring error they made, and teased the world what Cadillac could be again, but for whatever reason, never executed on it.  Several times in the last 20 years I might add.

 

Finally, they got the cojones to not only do it

 

but to do it right.  

1. Not half-assed like the Allante, XLR, ELR before it.

2. 300 000 dollar plus price tag.

3. extremely customized and bespoke to the individual buyer

4. the vehicle itself being bespoke and not shared with any other Cadillac or GM product.

5. hand built to enhance exclusivity, prestige and specialness

6. high tech

7. great awareness and execution and focus on quality, fit and finish and luxury

And to top it all off, in thee last decade, Cadillac made steps in the right direction to fix the image they had with their other cars.

They built a cult following with their V cars. Which greatly made folk forget about the land barges of yore.

But still kept that legacy alive with the absolute monster of an icon, the Escalade. But for the 21st century AD.  And with the Lyriq and Celestiq, Cadillac's image is just building up steam to rise to the top.

When the EV Escalade joins the fray, and the Escalade again, has a great platform to continue on, the HUMMER EV, and the electric V cars, to do battle with Porsche Taycans, Audi E-Tron GTs, Lucid Airs, and the benchmark Tesla Model S, Cadillac is finally on the right track.

Any of that means nothing still, to the rise of Cadillac again, its just that the sky is that much more clear, blue and sunny for Cadillac.  

 

 

Lets just hope they dont fumble the ball again.

[oldshurst442]

https://insideevs.com/news/588048/2023-cadillac-lyriq-sold-out-70percent-buyers-are-new-to-brand/

 

1.  The 2023 Cadillac Lyriq sold out a mere four hours after orders opened on May 19, the automaker revealed. GM's luxury brand opened the order banks at 9 am and by 1 pm the 2023 Lyriq had sold out

2.  While the representative declined to say how many orders Cadillac received, in March the brand did report having about 233,000 people who expressed interest in the car. Back then, Cadillac also said it expected to convert about 10% of those hand-raisers to buyers. It's safe to say Cadillac is planning a production run of more than 20,000 vehicles for the 2023 Lyriq,

3.  Speaking about Cadillac Lyriq customers, the brand’s first-ever production EV appears to be quite an effective conquest vehicle, as approximately 70% of buyers are new to the brand. The percentage was reportedly communicated by Cadillac in a recent media presentation, according to Cadillac Society.

Interestingly, many of these new customers are younger than the typical Cadillac customer, with 68% of Lyriq customers being members of the so-called Gen X and Gen Y demographic groups.

 

[smk4565]

10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Talk about fantasy land.

you havent realized that Cadillac is kicking Mercedes ATPs since 2020.

And the thing is, even when all car makers' ATPs have shot up since Covid, Cadillac's have skyrocketed and widened the gap that much more against Mercedes. 

https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2021-10-13-Average-New-Vehicle-Transaction-Prices-Top-45,000-for-First-Time,-According-to-Kelley-Blue-Book

Makes	September 2021 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	August 2021 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	September 2020 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	Percent Change August 2021 to September 2021*	Percent Change September 2020 to September 2021*
Acura	$48,105	$48,297	$39,900	-0.4%	20.6%
Alfa Romeo	$48,549	$48,458	$44,965	0.2%	8.0%
Audi	$57,547	$56,806	$54,718	1.3%	5.2%
BMW	$65,043	$63,713	$60,418	2.1%	7.7%
Buick	$36,319	$35,086	$34,185	3.5%	6.2%
Makes	September 2021 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	August 2021 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	September 2020 Transaction Price (Avg.)*	Percent Change August 2021 to September 2021*	Percent Change September 2020 to September 2021*
Cadillac	$81,938	$75,399	$54,202	8.7%	51.2%
Chevrolet	$50,451	$47,095	$40,903	7.1%	23.3%
Chrysler	$45,387	$44,622	$40,434	1.7%	12.3%
Dodge	$45,052	$42,637	$38,048	5.7%	18.4%
Fiat	$27,726	$27,032	$28,303	2.6%	-2.0%
Ford	$50,853	$51,446	$45,677	-1.2%	11.3%
Genesis	$60,087	$59,148	$46,328	1.6%	29.7%
GMC	$61,557	$58,042	$54,182	6.1%	13.6%
Honda	$33,915	$32,983	$29,284	2.8%	15.8%
Hyundai	$33,390	$32,879	$29,644	1.6%	12.6%
Infiniti	$52,873	$51,962	$46,679	1.8%	13.3%
Jaguar	$73,893	$69,477	$59,058	6.4%	25.1%
Jeep	$44,445	$44,340	$39,906	0.2%	11.4%
Kia	$33,036	$31,892	$29,637	3.6%	11.5%
Land Rover	$86,757	$85,056	$80,195	2.0%	8.2%
Lexus	$53,316	$51,261	$50,374	4.0%	5.8%
Lincoln	$62,394	$61,751	$57,782	1.0%	8.0%
Mazda	$34,144	$32,831	$30,103	4.0%	13.4%
Mercedes-Benz	$75,369	$74,885	$59,899	0.6%	25.8%
Mini	$35,534	$35,580	$32,929	-0.1%	7.9%
Mitsubishi	$28,978	$28,753	$23,415	0.8%	23.8%
Nissan	$33,376	$32,407	$29,700	3.0%	12.4%
Porsche	$102,397	$100,747	$96,118	1.6%	6.5%
Ram	$55,383	$54,051	$51,549	2.5%	7.4%
Subaru	$33,911	$34,804	$31,911	-2.6%	6.3%
Tesla	$55,085	$54,538	$54,270	1.0%	1.5%
Toyota	$38,592	$36,743	$33,608	5.0%	14.8%
Volkswagen	$34,992	$35,105	$30,594	-0.3%	14.4%
Volvo	$54,903	$53,767	$48,604	2.1%	13.0%
Industry	$ 45,031	$ 43,418	$ 40,159	3.7%	12.1%

 

And the A Class is being scrapped in the US?

Another failure for Mercedes in the US market.

And the real thing that should hit you hard is that Cadillac is going UPMARKET while stabilizing their sales and Mercedes is trying to sell more while going DOWNMARKET.

 

Revenue, ATP has zero to do with Revenue.   Mercedes had $136 billion in revenue in 2021, GM $127 million and Honda $124 Billion.   My earlier point at Lucid not being a threat is because Mercedes is a huge company, Lucid is not.  Lucid lost $4.7 billion last year, and has $5.4 billion cash on hand, they only have enough cash to get through 2023. 

You keep saying Mercedes is going down market, then post a graphic that their avg sales price is up 25% in a year, and then you complain that them killing their entry level mode in the US is a failure.  So you don't want them to sell an A-class, but complain when they cancel it?  Also keep in mind the CLA will become the entry level Mercedes and is priced higher than the CT4, CT5 and XT4.  Cadillac has a high ATP as a brand because their lower end cars had terrible sales volume and the Escalade does high volume. 

I have also said for over 10 years Cadillac needs to go up market.  But it was Cadillac who priced the CT6 $30k under rivals, Cadillac who killed the CTS and replaced it with a CT5 that was $10k cheaper, Cadillac killed off the rear drive SRX for a cheaper front drive SRX at a lower price point.   Cadillac killed the XLR after 1 generation instead of doubling down and making better car to justify the price tag.  Even when the last CTS was around, it was like $8k cheaper than a 5-series or E-class.   I have also said for years that they should go above the Escalade and most Cadillac fans are like "you can't do that, the Escalade is the top of the brand."  

Not only should Cadillac be doing the Celestiq, they should do an SUV above Escalade and a sports car above the Corvette.  I just don't like the body style they went with for the Celestiq.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

So is pointing out the revenue for Benz vs GM yet that didn’t stop you from mentioning it. Fact is when the numbers don’t line your way, you always say something like that so maybe look in the mirror next time before talking about a “meaningless statistic”. 

Because the point was brought up that Lucid is a threat to Mercedes.  If Lucid is threatening to put Mercedes out of business they Honda, GM, Hyundai/Kia who are all smaller companies should be really worried.  In reality, I don't see Lucid as a threat to any OEM because there is a limited number of people buying $100k and up cars, and if that is all you do, it is hard to make profit as an independent, which is whey Bentleys have VW parts under them and Rolls-Royce has BMW parts and why Aston Martin buys engines, transmissions, electronics and infotainment off Mercedes because these small companies can't develop that stuff, it costs way too much.   Lucid only survives if they start selling $40-50,000 cars at volume.

[oldshurst442]

25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Revenue, ATP has zero to do with Revenue

ATP has everything to do with revenue.

ATP also means that Cadillacs sell at a price higher than Mercedes.  Meaning, Cadillac buyers now are WILLING to spend MORE money on a Cadillac than on a Mercedes. Also meaning that Cadillac no longer resides in a Cadillac in every garage market niche which means that Cadillac is truly luxury as not everyone can afford a Cadillac.  Unlike Mercedes who wants to do exactly that...   A Mercedes for everybody.  THAT would NOT be luxury...  as you highly want to toot Mercedes as the world's most sold luxury brand, and yet, BMW took that crown. And yet, BMW aint luxury either as even BMW is down market in Europe...  So Mercedes is losing sales to another down market auto sales company.  Chevrolet sells more 50 000 dollar vehicles than either of them. Not so useless statistic when you consider the implications...

Image is going up.  Mercedes' image is leveling and with CNBC's opinion piece, is actually true to what is being said about Mercedes' luxury perception problems.  

Ive been stating THAT for the last 15 years that it will finally catch up to Mercedes.

Self loathing Americans much like yourself, is what makes you pathetic, have COMPLETELY ignored and gave a pass on for Mercedes, BMW and Toyota but much have crucified and NEVER forgave the American brands for shyte they done half a phoquing century ago. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/06/business/mercedes-benz-brake-recall.html

Mercedes has just issued 1 000 000 cars for rusted out brakes and fear of failing.  Mercedes has sold about 300 000 cars year after year for the last 15 years.   300 000 x 15 = 4.5 million cars.   Mercedes has recalled 25% of those...  

Diesel scandals 

 Going down market and the failure of many shytty models in the US market ALL in the last 15-20 years.

Yet you, SMK, not a nigh of malcontent, dissing or complaint of Mercedes but you yap, yap yap negative shyte on GM and Cadillac.  

Phoque off!!!

Edited July 24, 2022 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

54 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The 300 000 dollar plus price tag and the thought of a bespoke everything, handcrafted halo vehicle that will be the Celestiq is what is greatly missing in Cadillac's showroom to showcase that Cadillac is truly in the business of making prestige vehicles. 

For far too long, Cadillac peddled the wrong car, the wrong price tag and in the wrong market niche to establish itself amongst the top premium brands. 

Cadillac made the decision to go down market and go after sales in the late '70s or early '80s and almost immediately bit them in the ass.   

They did eventually see the glaring error they made, and teased the world what Cadillac could be again, but for whatever reason, never executed on it.  Several times in the last 20 years I might add.

 

Finally, they got the cojones to not only do it

 

but to do it right.  

 

If Cadillac we such a cash cow to begin with GM would not have had to file bankruptcy.   GM didn't get enough volume or profit margin out of Cadillac back then.  They could have done a car like the Sixteen, I never expected a 13.6 liter V16 to hit production, that would be a CAFE and emissions nightmare, but they could have done a full size car with the supercharged Northstar to stay more cost effective and had a big luxury car that probably what they were doing for DT7 at the time.  (could have put the supercharged Northstar in the Escalade 15 years ago also) But there are probably a lot of things Cadillac would have done different if they had a redo.

Going forward, the Elmiraj is a good looking car, even though coupes/convertibles are practically sales proof, I would still bring back the Eldorado and use those 2 concepts and the Lyriq as a guide.  If they can price the Lyriq at $62k, and they should be able to build a coupe for less than an SUV, I don't see why an Eldorado coupe can't also be $62k, maybe $65k if you dress up the interior a bit more or need a little money for suspension/handling.   Then the dual motor Eldorado can be $70k, add $5-10k for the convertible, whatever that costs, probably would have to go soft top for weight given that it's an EV.  And I'd size it similar to a CT5 or Lyric, somewhere in there, a full size coupe will never sell, keep it mid-size, then you can do a mid-size sedan that shares parts with it, plus you are sharing from the Lyriq too to keep cost in line.  

We also haven't seen the production version of the Celestiq yet, only a concept car with no stats.  So we need to see the the actual proaction car to see if they did get the quality, materials, etc correct and if what they built is worth the price.  

[smk4565]

51 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

https://insideevs.com/news/588048/2023-cadillac-lyriq-sold-out-70percent-buyers-are-new-to-brand/

 

1.  The 2023 Cadillac Lyriq sold out a mere four hours after orders opened on May 19, the automaker revealed. GM's luxury brand opened the order banks at 9 am and by 1 pm the 2023 Lyriq had sold out

2.  While the representative declined to say how many orders Cadillac received, in March the brand did report having about 233,000 people who expressed interest in the car. Back then, Cadillac also said it expected to convert about 10% of those hand-raisers to buyers. It's safe to say Cadillac is planning a production run of more than 20,000 vehicles for the 2023 Lyriq,

3.  Speaking about Cadillac Lyriq customers, the brand’s first-ever production EV appears to be quite an effective conquest vehicle, as approximately 70% of buyers are new to the brand. The percentage was reportedly communicated by Cadillac in a recent media presentation, according to Cadillac Society.

Interestingly, many of these new customers are younger than the typical Cadillac customer, with 68% of Lyriq customers being members of the so-called Gen X and Gen Y demographic groups.

 

20,000 is not enough, need to be able to produce 100,000 a year for the USA, probably same number for China.  Lexus sells over 100k RX's just in the USA. 

I read Ford plans to produce 270,000 Mach-E's next year.  But they have sold 17,000 in the first half of this year.  Not sure how they get from 34k a year to 270k a year, but scale is what matters.  Tesla is the only car maker producing EV's at scale right now, all the other guys keep advertising their EVs, but they don't have them on dealer lots.  Tesla sales are up 46% this year while the market overall is down 18%.  There is demand out there for cars and EV's especially, but no supply.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

If Cadillac we such a cash cow to begin with GM would not have had to file bankruptcy.

Not the reason that they filed for bankruptcy.

But if 2-3 years is pre-history.

15 years ago is a land before time.  

GM aint hurting for cash.  Cadillac is not hurting for profit.

Mercedes' revenue is but a shell game.

Its going to be tough time for Mercedes now that Mercedes doesnt have access to Chrysler/Jeep platforms to revive their coffers with Jeep platform SUV money that carried them through the ICE AGE SUV craze.

The EV thing is going to slaughter their coffers as they have nobody to sponge off of.

GM is quite in a good position here...   The next decade will be futile for them.   They dont even have a halo car for the EV future. 

The AMG ONE is a hybrid. So is a Corvette.  And nothing yet on its specs.   The Corvette hybrid and Z06 will mop the floor with it all for MILLIONS OF DOLLARS less.  Sooooo much needed R&D money wasted on that shyte.  The last great hybrid EV from Mercedes was 15 years ago with the SLS.  

Now...that would be about the time GM went bankrupt.

since then, GM has brought out image enhancing hit after hit. Styling greatness, one after the other.

Mercedes has relied on diesel scandals, melted bar of soap designs and laughable EV tech and going DOWNMARKET.

Hoping for them that they have truly unlocked the batter tech they so desperately need and its not a lie like with their diesels...

 

 

[oldshurst442]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

20,000 is not enough, need to be able to produce 100,000 a year for the USA, probably same number for China.  Lexus sells over 100k RX's just in the USA. 

I read Ford plans to produce 270,000 Mach-E's next year.

The Lyriq was not even out then.  

The Mach E is also on its way to its 3rd year and it proved to be a worthy EV not only as a Tesla rival, but as an EV on its own merit.

Let the Lyriq prove itself as it just hit the actual streets and the Lyriq sales will follow through. 

But you wanna nag on it.  

Nag on Mercedes for failing on plenty of levels...

[oldshurst442]

About Cadillac and the Celestiq.

It will sell as many as Cadillac wants to build.  Which is not many. It will be in the low hundreds as its mission is to remain exclusive and elusive. 

Its a boutique offering.   Not mass produced.

To help advance the exclusivity and luxury of a brand that was meant only for the rich.

Unobtainium. 

Better be rich if you wanna be a Cadillac owner nowadays.

The real deal. 

If you wanna fake it.  Buy a Mercedes. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I just don't like the body style they went with for the Celestiq

And that is certainly your right to have that opinion, just like it is everyone else’s opinion that it looks far better and more upscale than the jellybean twins from Benz. 

[oldshurst442]

12 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And that is certainly your right to have that opinion, just like it is everyone else’s opinion that it looks far better and more upscale than the jellybean twins from Benz. 

And the problem for Mercedes is that EVERYYBODY seems to hate that design language.

And I mean EVERYBODY.

All potential EV buyers...  Only the hardcore of the hardcore Mercedes fans like those ugly things.

Even @smk4565 disapproves of it.

Yet somehow, the Blazer EV and Celestiq have issues for him when he himself finds faults with the jellybean disasters. 

Yet all reporting of the Celestiq, Lyriq, Blazer EV, HUMMER EV, all give critical acclaim for those particular of gm EVs.   Including Euro biased media sources.  

Literarily, nobody gives a shyte about the EQS, EQB and family. 

Its all about the Lucid Air nowadays... and of course the Model S.  People got quickly UNDERWHELMED with Mercedes and its EVs that there is no buzz surrounding Mercedes anywhere.   The AMG ONE has hit the streets and nobody is talking about that either...  The Mercedes EVs are quickly set aside also. 

That is about the worst thing to happen to Mercedes, that Mercedes is an actual after thought.  And it has happened in 2022...

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

ATP has everything to do with revenue.

ATP also means that Cadillacs sell at a price higher than Mercedes.  Meaning, Cadillac buyers now are WILLING to spend MORE money on a Cadillac than on a Mercedes.

ATP has nothing to do with revenue when you have no volume.  

Cadillac doesn't have enough buyers willing to spend "MORE".  People are willing to spend money on Escalades, not the rest of their stuff.  If people were willing to spend more for a Cadillac, the CT5 would cost more than an E-class or 5-series and outsell them.  Likewise with the CT4 vs the 3-series, or the XT5 vs the Lexus RX, or the XT6 vs the MDX.  

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

About Cadillac and the Celestiq.

It will sell as many as Cadillac wants to build.  Which is not many. It will be in the low hundreds as its mission is to remain exclusive and elusive. 

Its a boutique offering.   Not mass produced.

To help advance the exclusivity and luxury of a brand that was meant only for the rich.

Unobtainium. 

Better be rich if you wanna be a Cadillac owner nowadays.

The real deal. 

If you wanna fake it.  Buy a Mercedes. 

You can lease a Cadillac for $409 a month, it's on their website.  I don't think you have to be rich to afford that.

[oldshurst442]

 

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

ATP has nothing to do with revenue when you have no volume.  

Cadillac doesn't have enough buyers willing to spend "MORE".  People are willing to spend money on Escalades, not the rest of their stuff.  If people were willing to spend more for a Cadillac, the CT5 would cost more than an E-class or 5-series and outsell them.  Likewise with the CT4 vs the 3-series, or the XT5 vs the Lexus RX, or the XT6 vs the MDX.  

 

E series sell at Chevrolet msrps in Europe hence Mercedes volumes...

Taxis, police cars.

In North America, Mercedes needs volumes to keep, like you said, revenues because S Class sales and the handfull of million dollar AMG ONES dont cut it.

Hence FWD down market econoboxes for Mercedes.

300 000-320 000 units sold for Mercedes versus 120 000-150 000 units for Cadillac.

Problem is, and Ive done those numbers before is that 40%- 50% of those sales for Mercedes is low end market stuff...

That leaves approx. the same amount of actual luxury sales as Cadillac.

And Cadillac now has a HIGHER ATP than Mercedes.  Mercedes is just gonna drag that ATP down as they need VOLUME to keep the lights on...

The A Class is gone but not the GLA

 

THIS starts at 37 000 and Mercedes WILL promote it heavily in the US as it NEEDS it to sell to keep money flowing. 

And  the EV version 

problem is...those two wwill be competing with these

 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I read Ford plans to produce 270,000 Mach-E's next year.

and this

 

Good luck for Mercedes to get an advance in Chevrolet, Ford and KIA market share...

 

You wanna fake it, buy a Mercedes!!!

[oldshurst442]

https://carbuzz.com/news/bad-news-mercedes-amg-one-hypercar-not-coming-to-usa

Bad News: Mercedes-AMG One Hypercar Not Coming To USA

JUN. 02, 2022 9:16 AM ETBY KARL FURLONG INDUSTRY NEWS / 31 COMMENTS

Americans will have to settle for an AMG GT Black Series.

After a painfully long wait, Mercedes finally took the covers off the production version of the AMG One hypercar this week. Everything we hoped for and then some, even Mercedes itself admitted that the idea to move forward with the AMG One was a drunken mistake