Cadillac News: American Luxury, Will the CELESTIQ deliver on the tag "Standard of the World"?

[G. David Felt]

July 22nd, 2022, at 9am General Motors Cadillac Division will reveal in its entirety the CELESTIQ. Cadillac has been teasing images of this ultra luxury hand built of global sourced parts auto as the ultimate standard of the world.

Erin Crossley, design director for the Cadillac CELESTIQ state the following:

“Every CELESTIQ will be instantly identifiable as one of a kind, giving each client a personal connection to Cadillac’s newest flagship,” “With Cadillac reimagining the future of American luxury, we are entering an era of limitless possibilities and the future of design.”

The goal by Cadillac is that the creative collaboration of each hand built CELESTIQ will evoke a personal connection with every Cadillac customer. Here we get to see one version of what a Totally Customizable American Luxury sedan is.

 

Cadillac used to be the Standard of the World with a very customized experience in the way their autos were built for each owner. This hand-built luxury sedan is expected to show this again that GM is focusing on the ultra-quality of luxury. Cadillac has had many hits and misses and as one example, was very late to the performance luxury sedan segment with their V edition of cars and even later to the party for their V edition of SUV/CUVs. This begs a very big question.

Can GM Cadillac Division deliver?

 

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[Robert Hall]

Looking forward to the reveal...looks slick...love the fastback roofline and sharp creases.

[surreal1272]

Certainly looks better than any jellybean shaped EV sedan from a certain German company. Now how much of this makes it into actual production is the question.

Edited July 14, 2022 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

I need to see more because that rear 1/4 looks pretty awful but it may work when it's all together. 

Is it supposed to be an *actual* coupe or like a Panamera "coupe"? 

I guess after looking at the 3rd picture down, it looks more like a four-door "coupe". I couldn't imagine having that kind of access to the rear seats and it only having two doors. 

I hope to love this like the Audi 7 and Merc CLS. I hope it isn't like the BMW 5 Series Gran Coupe or Panamera. Those two look bulbous and bulky compared to the Audi and Merc.  

[G. David Felt]

I am liking what I see so far but like all, very excited to see the full REVEAL and see how the overall shape / style works.

As a 4 door luxury sedan, the rear door in that photo looks big so I am thinking executive driving with leg room to spare. ?

Great body style from what I can see with the creases and lines without the ugly jellybean style and way better than Tesla style.

[Robert Hall]

^ maybe enough legroom, but would probably need 6 inches more headroom for you to fit comfortably? ?

[smk4565]

Need to see the actual production version, not sure if what is being shown next week is a concept or the actual production version.

Either way though, I think the demand for a $200,000+ Cadillac is pretty non-existent.   I know they only plan on building like 300 cars a year, but I don't see what this really does for the brand.  

On a side note, almost every car brand has this vision of going up market and more exclusive, but I don't think buyers want a $50k rear drive inline 6 cylinder powered Mazda 6, or a $70,000 Kia GT EV6, or Lucid with their $150,000 sedan, Rivian with their $100,000 pick up.  What would be 100 times more impressive is if a brand made an electric sedan that cost $35,000 and they sold 300,000 of them a year.  

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Either way though, I think the demand for a $200,000+ Cadillac is pretty non-existent.   I know they only plan on building like 300 cars a year, but I don't see what this really does for the brand.

Of course you don’t see what it does but you actually do know, as evidenced by your years of whining about Cadillac not having a six figure car to sell. This is purely about creating a long overdue image as a true luxury make. It’s that simple but lol, you don’t see what this really does for them. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

What would be 100 times more impressive is if a brand made an electric sedan that cost $35,000 and they sold 300,000 of them a year.  

Well I certainly know who WON’T be doing that. 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Of course you don’t see what it does but you actually do know, as evidenced by your years of whining about Cadillac not having a six figure car to sell. This is purely about creating a long overdue image as a true luxury make. It’s that simple but lol, you don’t see what this really does for them. 

 

It will take more than one car, and this car has to be successful, not just expensive like the Allante was, but ultimately a flop.  And Cadillac still has a bunch of mediocre front drive crossovers and a couple poor selling sedans making up the bulk of the line up.  I know all that stuff is probably dead in 2025, but the whole brand needs an overhaul, and they overhauled it in 2003-2005, again in 2013-2015, now again in 2023-2025.  They keep overhauling this brand and keep getting it wrong.

[surreal1272]

Well no $h! Sherlock. That can be said for any company. Of course they need more than one. Also, they have FWD CUVs that are all getting replaced by EVs (which you admitted to yet still felt the need to criticize) so that throws your little FWD remark right in the trash with the FWD CUVs AND Sedans that Benz currently offers. Stop using the same stupid and tired arguments just so you make some other dumb excuse why this is somehow bad for Cadillac (again, contradicting your years of asking why they don’t have a six figure sedan like the S-Class). 
 

And as far as “overhauling”, the absolute same can be said for your favorite brand too but you’re not ready to hear that. FFS. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Either way though, I think the demand for a $200,000+ Cadillac is pretty non-existent.   I know they only plan on building like 300 cars a year, but I don't see what this really does for the brand.  

I think it's to build a high end branding image. Probably not a whole lot different than the G Wagen a decade ago. I know it was more than 300 cars per year, but wasn't it right around like 1000-1500 units? 

 

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

but I don't think buyers want a $50k rear drive inline 6 cylinder powered Mazda 6, or a $70,000 Kia GT EV6, or Lucid with their $150,000 sedan,

All of those can be had for waaaaay less than that. 

I don't even see the Mazda6 on their website anymore..

Kia GT EV6 starts at $51,700.

Lucid Air starts at $87,400.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I think it's to build a high end branding image. Probably not a whole lot different than the G Wagen a decade ago. I know it was more than 300 cars per year, but wasn't it right around like 1000-1500 units? 

 

All of those can be had for waaaaay less than that. 

I don't even see the Mazda6 on their website anymore..

Kia GT EV6 starts at $51,700.

Lucid Air starts at $87,400.

No way they can sell over 1,000 Celestiqs a year, at least not in the US, if they are exporting to China, maybe.  
 

The EV6 GT-line starts at $51k, that’s 320 hp.  There is a 580 hp GT coming.  
 

The Mazda 6 is supposed to return as a premium rear drive sedan,  Mazda developed a new twin turbo inline six for it and an inline 6 diesel.  Also coming are CX-70 and CX-90 SUVs to go upmarket with those engines. 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

No way they can sell over 1,000 Celestiqs a year, at least not in the US, if they are exporting to China, maybe.

So what? You can still grasp the concept of an ultra-low volume, high end luxury halo vehicle. 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

No way they can sell over 1,000 Celestiqs a year, at least not in the US, if they are exporting to China, maybe

You clearly missed the point there. Whether it’s 300 or 1000, it’s still low volume and it’s rather presumptuous of you to assume that they can’t move that low number in this day and age. Just save that German fanboy nonsense already. 

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

So what? You can still grasp the concept of an ultra-low volume, high end luxury halo vehicle. 

I get that it’s low volume, but it isn’t a hyper car, it’s a full size sedan.  This is like when VW brought out the Phaeton W12 and yeah it was a great car and no one bought it and the brand image went nowhere, because it didn’t fit the line up.  
 

Cadillac  still needs a couple luxury sedans that can do volume, a convertible, an off roader, a sports car, to go with the lyriq and whatever electric crossovers slot below and above the Lyriq.  And maybe all of that is coming.  
 

The Celestiq better be Rolls-Royce Phantom beating otherwise why not just get a Maybach, Bentley, or Rolls? 

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

I get that it’s low volume, but it isn’t a hyper car, it’s a full size sedan.  This is like when VW brought out the Phaeton W12 and yeah it was a great car and no one bought it and the brand image went nowhere, because it didn’t fit the line up.  

The difference there is that was a Volkswagen, not an Audi. This isn't Chevy putting out a 200k sedan, it's Cadillac. 

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac  still needs a couple luxury sedans that can do volume, a convertible, an off roader, a sports car, to go with the lyriq and whatever electric crossovers slot below and above the Lyriq.  And maybe all of that is coming.

Almost none of that is necessary. There are only two luxury brands who make off roaders; Mercedes and Land Rover/Range Rover. GM just doesn't need an off roader in its Cadillac portfolio when they have ZR2 Silverados/AT4X Sierras and an electric Hummer. 

I do think its a shame they don't have something (ANYTHING) that's a true 2-door sports car. 

[ccap41]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Celestiq better be Rolls-Royce Phantom beating otherwise why not just get a Maybach, Bentley, or Rolls? 

I mean, you're not wrong here.  

They're starting within 10-15% of Rolls prices and at 300k it's starting over 100k MORE than Bentley Continentals and Flying Spurs....and Maybach Mercedes. 

This is a tough sell with those competitors.  

[surreal1272]

45 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I get that it’s low volume, but it isn’t a hyper car, it’s a full size sedan.  This is like when VW brought out the Phaeton W12 and yeah it was a great car and no one bought it and the brand image went nowhere, because it didn’t fit the line up.  
 

Cadillac  still needs a couple luxury sedans that can do volume, a convertible, an off roader, a sports car, to go with the lyriq and whatever electric crossovers slot below and above the Lyriq.  And maybe all of that is coming.  
 

The Celestiq better be Rolls-Royce Phantom beating otherwise why not just get a Maybach, Bentley, or Rolls? 

The Rolls Royce Spectre will start at $350K and while it may sell in its low volume set up, it is also only capable of 125 miles on a single charge. There is NO incentive to for any current RR owner to switch to this (it is nothing more than. a Phantom anyway) with that kind of range other than just the "privilege" of having the first EV Rolls. Maybach doesn't currently have an EVon sale or in anything beyond concept stages (and looks like a last gen Ford Edge anyway and this has already been discussed here). Bentley barely has an EV on the drawing board, much less in concept form. Cadillac has the platform ready to go. All that is left is to see how much the concept remains intact when it hits production. Point being is that Cadillac is already better in range than the Rolls and at least is actually based on an existing platform. Short of a colossal screw up, I believe you are going to eating your words once it comes out.

 

And for the record, VW does not = Cadillac so a completely irrelevant comparison. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

33 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The difference there is that was a Volkswagen, not an Audi. This isn't Chevy putting out a 200k sedan, it's Cadillac. 

Almost none of that is necessary. There are only two luxury brands who make off roaders; Mercedes and Land Rover/Range Rover. GM just doesn't need an off roader in its Cadillac portfolio when they have ZR2 Silverados/AT4X Sierras and an electric Hummer. 

I do think its a shame they don't have something (ANYTHING) that's a true 2-door sports car. 

Back in 2004 a VW Passat was about $22k base and near $40k for the W8 4-motion ($34k and $62k respectively in today's dollars)   The Phaeton was $65,000 for the W8 and $95,000 for the W12 ($102k and $150k in today's dollars).  The Phaeton was nearly triple the price of a Passat, a huge jump which is my point.  

The CT5 starts at $38k, $84k starting for a Blackwing, let's call $60k the middle, if the Celistiq is $300k that is 5 times the price of Cadillac's 2nd most expensive sedan.  It is a bigger jump than VW tried with the Phaeton which was an obsessively engineered car.

A luxury off roader may not be needed at Cadillac, but G-wagens and Range Rovers go for $50k+ over sticker right now, seems like good business to be in.  GMC could do a Hummer Denali (and 100% should) but I there is room above that I think too.  Not that GM needs to play in every segment.  I'd rather put the R&D dollars into a Cadillac sports car/convertible (especially if it is  priced more like the Lyric and less like the Celestiq) where you can build some image and get enough volume to justify the project.

[smk4565]

37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I mean, you're not wrong here.  

They're starting within 10-15% of Rolls prices and at 300k it's starting over 100k MORE than Bentley Continentals and Flying Spurs....and Maybach Mercedes. 

This is a tough sell with those competitors.  

Let's say it is even $200k, and priced against a Maybach (sedan or SUV, gas or electric, and there is a Maybach SL coming).  This car better be spectacular, because they are working with a badge deficit.  And all these luxury brands seem to be coming out with $100k+, $200k+ EV sedans at a time when sedan sales are tanking.  Personally I like sedans, but these people are fighting over a really small segment of buyer, and we just saw cars like the CT6, XJ, Continental, K900 all get gilled, because big luxury sedans don't sell, and those cars weren't even that expensive compared to this high end crowd.  

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The Rolls Royce Spectre will start at $350K and while it may sell in its low volume set up, it is also only capable of 125 miles on a single charge. There is NO incentive to for any current RR owner to switch to this (it is nothing more than. a Phantom anyway) with that kind of range other than just the "privilege" of having the first EV Rolls. Maybach doesn't currently have an EVon sale or in anything beyond concept stages (and looks like a last gen Ford Edge anyway and this has already been discussed here). Bentley barely has an EV on the drawing board, much less in concept form. Cadillac has the platform ready to go. All that is left is to see how much the concept remains intact when it hits production. Point being is that Cadillac is already better in range than the Rolls and at least is actually based on an existing platform. Short of a colossal screw up, I believe you are going to eating your words once it comes out.

 

And for the record, VW does not = Cadillac so a completely irrelevant comparison. 

But Cadillac isn't Rolls-Royce, they are closer to VW's price point.  The Volkswagen Arteon has a higher base price than the CT5 and they are the same size car.  

Cadillac struck out on multiple attempts to tackle BMW and Lexus, now they are just going for Rolls-Royce?  It's a big jump for the consumer, even if the car has the goods.

[surreal1272]

The Sedan market is thin period but yet not one negative thought from you regarding Benz pushing TWO EV sedans before the first CUV/SUV hits the streets.

Just now, smk4565 said:

But Cadillac isn't Rolls-Royce, they are closer to VW's price point.  The Volkswagen Arteon has a higher base price than the CT5 and they are the same size car.  

Cadillac struck out on multiple attempts to tackle BMW and Lexus, now they are just going for Rolls-Royce?  It's a big jump for the consumer, even if the car has the goods.

Benz isn't either yet you think they can play in that same range. Your bias is obvious here so I guess I shouldn't expect an objective thought on this.

Edited July 15, 2022 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Back in 2004 a VW Passat was about $22k base and near $40k for the W8 4-motion ($34k and $62k respectively in today's dollars)   The Phaeton was $65,000 for the W8 and $95,000 for the W12 ($102k and $150k in today's dollars).  The Phaeton was nearly triple the price of a Passat, a huge jump which is my point.

That's Volkswagen, not Audi. They were selling a cheap branded VW at luxury car (Audi) prices. 

This is Cadillac, not Chevy. 

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5 starts at $38k, $84k starting for a Blackwing, let's call $60k the middle, if the Celistiq is $300k that is 5 times the price of Cadillac's 2nd most expensive sedan.  It is a bigger jump than VW tried with the Phaeton which was an obsessively engineered car.

Do they not sell a 150k Escalade Blackwing? Why only compare to their sedan's prices? Yes, 2 times higher price than their currently highest priced vehicle is a lot but I don't think it's insane to think this could do "okay" for their targeted sales goal. 

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A luxury off roader may not be needed at Cadillac, but G-wagens and Range Rovers go for $50k+ over sticker right now, seems like good business to be in.  GMC could do a Hummer Denali (and 100% should) but I there is room above that I think too.  Not that GM needs to play in every segment.  I'd rather put the R&D dollars into a Cadillac sports car/convertible (especially if it is  priced more like the Lyric and less like the Celestiq) where you can build some image and get enough volume to justify the project.

50k over sticker means less than jack squat for Mercedes and Land Rover because they see exactly $0.00 of that markup. The DEALERSHIPS love selling them because they get all of that markup. 

Also, FWIW, the Benz dealership we were at recently said they won't take anything under 150k over sticker for their new G Wagens. Absolutely fckn insane. And they do it because they know they still sell as soon as they hit the showroom. The guy said he's actually sold two to a lady from LA because they were still cheaper here than in LA. 

[surreal1272]

41 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5 starts at $38k, $84k starting for a Blackwing, let's call $60k the middle, if the Celistiq is $300k that is 5 times the price of Cadillac's 2nd most expensive sedan

Umm, it's less than four times the price and I'm just going to say this. If Benz can play in the seven figure Hypercar territory (while the 2nd most expensive NON-SUV starts at around $90K) with the still waiting AMG ONE, then Cadillac is perfectly capable of playing in $300K territory. As it has already been stated, a $150K Spade Blacking is coming and they will sell every single one of those, guaranteed. An all new luxury EV is certainly within range at that point. Aim higher is the point here. And I'm sorry but after years of your endless posts about Cadillac not playing in a higher tax bracket, you don't get to make up excuses now about why it won't do this or it won't do that. At the very least, it looks night and day better than any EV sedan coming from Germany.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

The Sedan market is thin period but yet not one negative thought from you regarding Benz pushing TWO EV sedans before the first CUV/SUV hits the streets.

Benz isn't either yet you think they can play in that same range. Your bias is obvious here so I guess I shouldn't expect an objective thought on this.

The electric SUVs are coming like 6 months after the sedans, they do have an electric GLB that will be on sale before the EQE here too.  Plus China and Europe where Mercedes does most of their business aren't as SUV crazy as the USA is.  

And Mercedes isn't in Rolls-Royce's range either.  The Maybach cars are clearly above all of what Mercedes competitors offer, but still not Rolls level.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

That's Volkswagen, not Audi. They were selling a cheap branded VW at luxury car (Audi) prices. 

This is Cadillac, not Chevy. 

Do they not sell a 150k Escalade Blackwing? Why only compare to their sedan's prices? Yes, 2 times higher price than their currently highest priced vehicle is a lot but I don't think it's insane to think this could do "okay" for their targeted sales goal. 

50k over sticker means less than jack squat for Mercedes and Land Rover because they see exactly $0.00 of that markup. The DEALERSHIPS love selling them because they get all of that markup. 

Also, FWIW, the Benz dealership we were at recently said they won't take anything under 150k over sticker for their new G Wagens. Absolutely fckn insane. And they do it because they know they still sell as soon as they hit the showroom. The guy said he's actually sold two to a lady from LA because they were still cheaper here than in LA. 

If Genesis, Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, or Volvo came out with a $250,000 sedan they would get laughed at and criticized.  Cadillac is in the same league as that group.

I get that the dealer is who is cashing in, but that is because the manufacturers can't get their production up.   The G-wagen has over a 2 year wait right now, I don't know how much of that is supply chain or how much is Magna Styer can't produce enough.  But if people are paying $250,000 for used G-wagens, you'd think other luxury brands might think it's a good idea to make a luxury off roader.

[riviera74]

The fastback look reminds of hatchbacks from years ago.  No real trunk for a flagship sedan?  Ditch the hatchback for a real trunk. 

The interior looks rather bespoke though.  And as we all should know, interiors actually matter more.

[ccap41]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:19 PM, smk4565 said:

If Genesis, Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, or Volvo came out with a $250,000 sedan they would get laughed at and criticized.  Cadillac is in the same league as that group.

Cadillac is not in the same league as those, except Genesis. 

Personally, I believe Genesis is on the same tier as the Germans and Cadillac. They have a small portfolio right now and they don't have the performance vehicles like Blackwing, AMG, M, RS, but everything I've seen and read makes them a legitimate luxury automaker. 

On 7/15/2022 at 6:19 PM, smk4565 said:

But if people are paying $250,000 for used G-wagens, you'd think other luxury brands might think it's a good idea to make a luxury off roader.

As much as I love G Wagens, it's a status symbol and not every company can just come out with something like that and sell it for 200k + markup. Mercedes has done EXTREMELY well with the G Class but I think most can agree that's an anomaly in the market. They really don't do much of anything all that great. They shine off road but NOBODY buys one new for 200k and takes it off-road unless they're some YouTuber and are monetizing it.