VW to replace all automatics with DSG?

[Drew Dowdell]

Volkwagen's Direct Shift Gearbox/S-Tronic twin clutch gearbox has been fairly canonized by all who have mashed its paddles. And now, the automaker's product chief Wolfgang Bernhard is suggesting that the gearbox will replace all of its conventional automatics in much of the VW kingdom shortly, including transverse-mount Audis, Skodas, Seats, and VWs. Apparently, VW is having a issues dealing with longitudinal applications at the moment.

Bernhard also allowed that the VW has no plans to license the technology, preferring to keep the transmission for itself.

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[CSpec]

The DSG is truly amazing, but I would still prefer a manual for a better driving experience. I thought VW was selling the 7-speed Veyron DSG to Ferrari?

[Drew Dowdell]

The DSG is truly amazing, but I would still prefer a manual for a better driving experience. I thought VW was selling the 7-speed Veyron DSG to Ferrari?

Well yeah... but this isn't replacing a manual. They're using the DSG to replace an Auto.

If you're going to get an automatic anyway.... the DSG is a great transmission upgrade.

[CSpec]

I know, I'm just saying that I would still get a manual even though the DSG shifts much more quickly.

[stickmax]

Could someone please explain to me what is the difference between DSG and other 'manualmatic' systems?

[Drew Dowdell]

Could someone please explain to me what is the difference between DSG and other 'manualmatic' systems?

A manualmatic system is just a traditional automatic that allows you to control the up and downshifts either through padled or by wiggling the gear selector back and forth.

A DSG is two manual transmissions side by side with two clutches. One transmission has 1st, 3rd, and 5th gear. The other transmission has 2nd, 4th, and 6th gear. The clutches are traditional manual transmission clutches except they are activated, electronically, by the computer. You start in first gear, the second transmission is already in second gear. To shift, the computer rapidly disengages the first transmission's clutch while also engaging the second transmission's clutch. While in second gear, the first transmission shifts from 1st to 3rd and waits for power to be passed back to it. The The transmissions pass power back and forth through the gears all the way up to 6th.

This dual clutch, dual transmission setup can shift gears faster than any human could.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Oldsmoboi

[Member55]

A manualmatic system is just a traditional automatic that allows you to control the up and downshifts either through padled or by wiggling the gear selector back and forth.

A DSG is two manual transmissions side by side with two clutches. One transmission has 1st, 3rd, and 5th gear. The other transmission has 2nd, 4th, and 6th gear. The clutches are traditional manual transmission clutches except they are activated, electronically, by the computer. You start in first gear, the second transmission is already in second gear. To shift, the computer rapidly disengages the first transmission's clutch while also engaging the second transmission's clutch. While in second gear, the first transmission shifts from 1st to 3rd and waits for power to be passed back to it.  The The transmissions pass power back and forth through the gears all the way up to 6th.

This dual clutch, dual transmission setup can shift gears faster than any human could.

What happens when the computer is expecting you to go from 2nd to 3rd gear but you unexpectedly slow down and now the first transmission is in the wrong gear, any noticeable delay?

[Variance]

I'm a big fan of DSG so I like this idea. I can see prices increasing as a result, though.

[Sixty8panther]

Screw that... I hate needless complication. Give me a 5/6 speed.

[76ChevyTrucker]

I agree with sly on this one, give me something that isn't as complex, or as likely to break....imagine what you're going to pay when this thing goes on the blink, as compared to a "normal" automatic transmission, or a "normal" manual transmission.

[balthazar]

This dual clutch, dual transmission setup can shift gears faster than any human could.

Conventional automatics already do this.

Perhaps this unbelievable complexity could be warranted in a ferrari, but in a VW???

[Drew Dowdell]

What happens when the computer is expecting you to go from 2nd to 3rd gear but you unexpectedly slow down and now the first transmission is in the wrong gear, any noticeable delay?

While I've never driven a DSG, I'd imagine that those crafty engineers over at VW have anticipated that scenario. Slowing down does happen on occasion and I would imagine that is a fairly major design criterion for a transmission to be able to handle.

[the_yellow_dart]

Awesome.

Great to see a company with the balls to truly innovate like this. I'm kind of surprised that it's VW though... would have expected it more from BMW or DCX.

[regfootball]

While I've never driven a DSG, I'd imagine that those crafty engineers over at VW have anticipated that scenario. Slowing down does happen on occasion and I would imagine that is a fairly major design criterion for a transmission to be able to handle.

the engine computer can adjust for this.

i have heard that the term concentric used for this tranny

R/T

DSG Innovation

I've saved VW-Audi's Direct Shift Gearbox for last, as it's the newest (see our May 2004 Audi TT/BMW Z4 comparison) and also the most innovative. By the way, DSG also answers to the name of DualTronic; this, at its BorgWarner supplier.

DSG shifts offer essentially uninterrupted transmission of power (in feel, much like a conventional automatic). This is achieved by means of innovative twin-concentric clutches operating within what is otherwise a rather conventional gearbox.

Let's imagine that our Morgan model were DSG. (Please, stop laughing). With DSG, its input shaft consists of an inner shaft containing 1st and 3rd gears and an outer hollow shaft containing 2nd and 4th. The hollow shaft is linked to the outer clutch; the inner one, to the inner clutch.

When 1st gear is selected (by you or the computer), both the 1st- and 2nd-gear dog clutches are engaged. This would cause gearbox chaos but for action of the twin concentric clutches: With 1st gear selected, the inner clutch is engaged, but the outer one is disengaged. Thus, think of 2nd gear as being only pre-engaged.

Then comes the 1-2 shift, be it driver- or computer-initiated. It requires nothing more than disengagement of the inner clutch (freeing 1st gear) and engagement of the outer one (bringing 2nd into the transmission of power). That is, each of these gears is already locked to its appropriate input shaft, 1st to the inner one, 2nd to the hollow one.

Programmed logic identifies what happens next. If the car is accelerating, the 2-3 shift is preselected by locking 3rd gear to the inner shaft (after unlocking 1st), the inner twin-clutch still disengaged. If computer logic identifies deceleration, 1st gear gets locked in preselection of a 2-1 downshift. The appropriate shift occurs seamlessly with the timed engagement of one clutch and disengagement of another.

What's truly amazing is how transparently these actions occur.

A DSG/DualTronic tidbit on gasoline versus diesel: Supplier BorgWarner sees this gearbox as offering a gasoline-powered car perhaps 5-percent better fuel economy compared with its automatic-equipped counterpart. But it cites as much as 15-percent better diesel economy. Why the difference? Diesels produce their torque — and a lot of it — at relatively low rpm. And this is where conventional planetary gearsets (the heart of automatics, you'll recall) do not operate very efficiently.

[balthazar]

"...otherwise a rather conventional gearbox."

OK- maybe it's not a $6000 transmission after all.

Reminds me of the '48 Tucker- one of the trans offered was an electric pre-selector gearbox.

[Flybrian]

So, this over a full auto why?

[Drew Dowdell]

So, this over a full auto why?

Better performance than any automatic in:

1. Power delivery

2. Smooth operation

3. gas mileage

4. lower weight

It sounds more complex than an auto, but really, it's just a manual with two clutches and an unconventional <not complex> setup.

[csaba1218]

Conventional automatics already do this.

Perhaps this unbelievable complexity could be warranted in a ferrari, but in a VW???

ahh don't piss and moan just cause GM has nothing even close to approaching VW's DSG. Drive one and then tell me you don't like it.

[RBB]

Screw that... I hate needless complication. Give me a 5/6 speed.

You want a Toyota tranny? I'd rather have one that also included gears 1-4.

-RBB

[xdre]

Bernhard also allowed that the VW has no plans to license the technology, preferring to keep the transmission for itself.

Bernhard says that as if it stops prospective buyers from gettting the technology from the source--which would be Borg-Warner.

[pow]

VW doesn't charge any more for DSG over a conventional automatic. In the US, it costs $1075 on the GTI/GLI, A3, and TDI Jetta and Beetle, and it's standard equipment on the Veyron.

[SoCalCTS]

And why do they need this? Do they really think that people who drive automatics really want to be shifting something?

I applaud their technology but obviously, they have a lot to learn about marketing.

I don't need to be bothered with anything less than a fully automatic transmission.

[xdre]

DSG can be treated just like a "normal" automatic. This really is a win-win situation, even if a bit tough to explain.

[regfootball]

DSG can be treated just like a "normal" automatic.  This really is a win-win situation, even if a bit tough to explain.

i would love a DSG

[Shantanu]

Volkswagen has really good transmission technology.

I've been thinking that maybe GM should license some of the Audi CVT's for use in their own lineup.