Mercedez Benz News Mercedes-AMG Announce Two All-Electric Performance Saloons, Is It The Best or Nothing?

[surreal1272]

@smk4565-A quote from A comparo between the EQS and Lucid Air. Regarding the EQS,

”Finish, fitment, and quality is typical Mercedes perfection, but materials are good, not great. There's a marked use of plastic where it should/would be metal on its traditional gas-powered namesake.”

 

”The rest of the EQS' cabin is relatively straightforward and familiar, though if we hold fast to the idea of this serving as the S-Class of EVs, the interior is the largest disconnect. There's plenty of limo-esque legroom, but thanks to battery packaging and overall odd proportions, rear passengers have a tall knee angle thanks to a high floor that could prove uncomfortable for some. Still, both front and back seats are large and very comfortable, lending a lounge-like feel to the whole experience.”

 

and lastly (in the same comparison)

”Add to this poor visibility, high frontal cowl, acres of LED accent lighting, and the slab of infotainment screen, and this is one of the most inelegantly presented non-AMG Mercedes we've interacted with in some time, at least by some staffer's standards.”

 

Now show us the “best or nothing” in any of the above statements and hands on review of said Mercedes. 

 

Source: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-lucid-air-vs-mercedes-benz-eqs-electric-luxury-car-comparison-test-review/amp/

Edited March 5, 2022 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

^ Here's where it's going to get truly hilarious.

The 'go to' SMK play, sales volume = bestest, is never going to be mentioned again WRT MB's electrics.
They ceded a full decade to Tesla in the segment and they're never going to catch up. MB is a distant follower, and with underwhelming & polarizing product here.

[G. David Felt]

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But all other VW’s have a word name, except maybe GTI, but that is just short for Golf GTI.   The iD4 doesn’t match VW’s naming system and it’s worse car than the Kia, Hyundai or Mach E.  Just like their other SUVs are no match for the Asian SUVs.

Mercedes electric cars are the same naming scheme as gas cars, just with EQ in front.  

Hey BIFF, News for you, VW electric lineup of auto's are all in the same naming style as stupid as your German love fest brand Mercedes.

On top of this, VW just announced their ID.6.

ID.6 | Volkswagen Newsroom (volkswagen-newsroom.com)

VW is not only ahead of Mercedes in delivering a true portfolio of electric autos, but EVs with some style and not a Jellybean blah look that so many here have stated are ugly.

Per the press release: By 2023, Volkswagen will have launched a total of eight ID. models in China. The world premiere of the ID.6.⁰¹ in China sees Volkswagen continue to pursue its regionalisation strategy.

How many Electrics does Mercedes have for sale in China alone?

ONE, the EQC and that is a TURD as it has MAJOR Motor Failures per news.

Mercedes-Benz EQC Owners In China Report Motor Problems (insideevs.com)

Per the News: Some 300 owners have been involved in protests over the issue and how Mercedes has handled it thus far.

New EQC owners in China are paying a premium for the electric SUV due in part to the fact that it's produced by Mercedes. However, it's problems like these that may be working to tarnish the iconic brand as it moves toward electrification. The brand, as part of its joint venture with BAIC Motor, already recalled nearly 800 EQC vehicles in China.

Interesting that Mercedes says just add more coolant due to it being a cooling issue, the dealerships add it, shorts out motor. Dead BEV. 

Sounds like The Best or Nothing? Guess Nothing is Best?

Get Real, Mercedes like ALL Auto OEMs are having problems with quality and Mercedes right now is definitely NOT the BEST!

 

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565-A quote from A comparo between the EQS and Lucid Air. Regarding the EQS,

”Finish, fitment, and quality is typical Mercedes perfection, but materials are good, not great. There's a marked use of plastic where it should/would be metal on its traditional gas-powered namesake.”

 

”The rest of the EQS' cabin is relatively straightforward and familiar, though if we hold fast to the idea of this serving as the S-Class of EVs, the interior is the largest disconnect. There's plenty of limo-esque legroom, but thanks to battery packaging and overall odd proportions, rear passengers have a tall knee angle thanks to a high floor that could prove uncomfortable for some. Still, both front and back seats are large and very comfortable, lending a lounge-like feel to the whole experience.”

 

and lastly (in the same comparison)

”Add to this poor visibility, high frontal cowl, acres of LED accent lighting, and the slab of infotainment screen, and this is one of the most inelegantly presented non-AMG Mercedes we've interacted with in some time, at least by some staffer's standards.”

 

Now show us the “best or nothing” in any of the above statements and hands on review of said Mercedes. 

 

Source: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-lucid-air-vs-mercedes-benz-eqs-electric-luxury-car-comparison-test-review/amp/

Having sat in both EQS and S-class, the S-class has a better interior, and the dash/cowl on the EQS is rather high, I don't know why it is higher.  But keep in mind the S-class interior beats anything outside of Rolls-Royce or Bentley.  The EQS still has the best interior of any EV on sale now, and fit and finish quality as noted by the article, which Tesla does not have.  I would take the S580 all day long over the EQS580, but I would also take the S580 over any EV.  All these EV's are over priced, most $10-20k more than a similar vehicle form the same brand, at least the EQS costs the same as the similar gasoline model.

[smk4565]

48 minutes ago, David said:

Hey BIFF, News for you, VW electric lineup of auto's are all in the same naming style as stupid as your German love fest brand Mercedes.

On top of this, VW just announced their ID.6.

ID.6 | Volkswagen Newsroom (volkswagen-newsroom.com)

 

 

But the rest of the VW lineup is Taos, Tiguan, Atlas, Jetta, Passat, etc.  Why does 1 brand have two naming schemes?  Same can be said about Cadillac.  And likewise with Kia and the K5, Telluride, EV6.  Pick a freaking naming scheme and also calling cars EV1, EV2, EV3, EV4, etc is lazy.  Probably why VW Group global sales in 2021 were at a 10 year low, not a competitive line up.

And Mercedes names before you go there mean something as C is for C-segment, E is executive segment, S is sonder-klase, or special class, Geländewagen means all terrain, etc.  

[balthazar]

Naming "schemes" are there for the inane.
So are ascending 'schemes' like X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7. Nursery school stuff.
So is naming vehicles after government-defined 'segments' like 'C'. Could it be any more clinical.

I hate all of it.

At least at one point, decades ago, mercedes' named vehicles after engine displacement.  That had actual meaning to the product.  Of course, that proved to be short-of-sight when displacements changed but the advertising investment was built into the earlier numeric, so they lazily kept it and dismissed earlier claims with a 'Oh, it doesn't mean that which we said it did, anymore'.  BMW did this same sh!t with the 'i' suffix.

Reminds me again of all the advertising hay Daimler tried to make over their ribbed taillight lenses 'keeping them clean from grime 'for safety!!'.... until (thankfully) the trend of heavily ribbed auto surfaces grew stale, mercedes dropped all ribbed taillights (and cladding) and forget all their 'scientific' claims there.

Now we have still more wildly-inaccurate engine displacement monikers tied to vehicles with zero displacement from MB. 

Lame, squared.

Edited March 5, 2022 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

But the rest of the VW lineup is Taos, Tiguan, Atlas, Jetta, Passat, etc.  Why does 1 brand have two naming schemes?  Same can be said about Cadillac.  And likewise with Kia and the K5, Telluride, EV6.  Pick a freaking naming scheme and also calling cars EV1, EV2, EV3, EV4, etc is lazy.  Probably why VW Group global sales in 2021 were at a 10 year low, not a competitive line up.

And Mercedes names before you go there mean something as C is for C-segment, E is executive segment, S is sonder-klase, or special class, Geländewagen means all terrain, etc.  

Try again Biff, Mercedes is not the Top Dog in Sales and while VW might have hit a low, they are still the top Dog. Daimler which includes Mercedes in this chart at the time for last year is almost $100 Billion behind VW.

REMINDER, as you have stated and we all know, Mercedes is separate from Daimler now, as such, expect Mercedes to drop to around #12, 11, 10 at the best in the ranking of auto companies.

[balthazar]

mercedes is not 'separate from Daimler' ; Daimler was renamed 'mercedes'.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

Try again Biff, Mercedes is not the Top Dog in Sales and while VW might have hit a low, they are still the top Dog. Daimler which includes Mercedes in this chart at the time for last year is almost $100 Billion behind VW.

REMINDER, as you have stated and we all know, Mercedes is separate from Daimler now, as such, expect Mercedes to drop to around #12, 11, 10 at the best in the ranking of auto companies.

Daimler(last year, now called Mercedes-Benz)  has 2 car brands, Smart and Mercedes, plus the commercial trucks that would have been in last year's revenue.  And Volkswagen has VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Ducati, Scania and Man.   I did find Mercedes Car and Vans revenue for 2021 was $119.8 Billion, and Mercedes-Benz Mobility (the finance and insurance arm) made $30.5 Billion. So $150.3 billion combined, still makes them #5 on that list without Daimler Trucks and if you put Stellantis in there.   Tesla since they aren't on there was $53 billion.  Heck is Mercedes has a strong year they might beat Ford.  And I don't expect their 1 car brand to out-revenue the 14 combined brands over at Stellantis or VW.

[balthazar]

 

[surreal1272]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Having sat in both EQS and S-class, the S-class has a better interior, and the dash/cowl on the EQS is rather high

Yeah, what do I know? I simply quoted actual reviews from actual people who actually drive them extensively and they all pretty much had the same opinions about the EQ sedans. 

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But the rest of the VW lineup is Taos, Tiguan, Atlas, Jetta, Passat, etc.

Good f@#king god man! All of those cars are going bye bye once they go all EV, just like Benz issuing "EQ" in front of theirs. Furthermore, you talk a big game defending a company who has change their lettering on more than occasion. ML/GLK? GL/GLS? That's just for starters so please save us this bit about naming issues from a brand that doesn't even compete with Benz in the first damn place. Save that for Audi.

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

Now we have still more wildly-inaccurate engine displacement monikers tied to vehicles with zero displacement from MB. 

Lame, squared.

Shhhhh! He's not supposed to acknowledge that. Any Mercedes fan that can make excuses for the ugliness that is the EQS and EQE, is capable of ignoring anything that's right in front of their face.

[balthazar]

I still don't get why they didn't put the big slab of glass in ALL EQS's, instead of cheaping out. It's a $102 grand car, for crap's sake, and it's supposed to inherit the 'flagship' beanie in some (unknown) year.  Escalade doesn't have a base trim with 2 iPads glued to a featureless dash; Cadillac puts it in every one.

[smk4565]

13 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Yeah, what do I know? I simply quoted actual reviews from actual people who actually drive them extensively and they all pretty much had the same opinions about the EQ sedans. 

Good f@#king god man! All of those cars are going bye bye once they go all EV, just like Benz issuing "EQ" in front of theirs. Furthermore, you talk a big game defending a company who has change their lettering on more than occasion. ML/GLK? GL/GLS? That's just for starters so please save us this bit about naming issues from a brand that doesn't even compete with Benz in the first damn place. Save that for Audi.

Shhhhh! He's not supposed to acknowledge that. Any Mercedes fan that can make excuses for the ugliness that is the EQS and EQE, is capable of ignoring anything that's right in front of their face.

So VW is going to throw away brand equity in names like Tiguan, Jetta and Passat, for id3, id2, and id5?   Makes no sense.  Kia if they throw out names like Sorrento and Telluride (although new) for EV5 and EV9 is another bad move.   Imagine Chevy throwing out Silverado and Corvette because the new EV naming structure is CE1, CE2, CE3, etc, awful.  The Mercedes plan is to make an electric equivalent of every one of their gas models.  GM basically has the same plan forming, EV Silverado, Equinox, the Bolt is basically EV Trax/Trailblazer, EV Corvette (eventually), the Lyric is basically EV version of XT6, and so on.  These plans make sense because they are just going to map their current line and current names and make them electric, so they can retain current customers.  Not sure which Tiguan buyer is trading their car in to spend $15k extra on an id4 which they never heard of.

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

So VW is going to throw away brand equity in names like Tiguan, Jetta and Passat, for id3, id2, and id5?   Makes no sense.

Question. Is this a VW thread or Mercedes thread? I’m asking because you keep harping on the same damn thing that clearly only matters to you. It just comes off as more deflection from the legitimate criticisms heaped towards your favorite brand. 
 

That is what makes no sense around here. 
 

 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Mercedes plan is to make an electric equivalent of every one of their gas models.

And they are failing miserably at it this far. See previous this entire thread and supported articles as proof. All they are doing is ruining the names of the S Class and E Class with those boring and horrible designs that don’t even begin to resemble the cars they are meant to replace. Not even a semblance of “heritage” in there. Knowing that, it makes “keeping the name” seem pretty damn pointless. 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Mercedes plan is to make an electric equivalent of every one of their gas models.

They're literally not doing that tho. Who ever heard of a 'eqs'? Isn't is going to remind (the eight) people who remember the failed Equus??

On top of that, if MB really were the engineering company the ad men try to portray it as being, AND the brand was arguably at the zenith of it's popularity with the IC lineup.... wouldn't they find a way to take the existing bodies and drop them over a BE platform??  Tesla has a wonderfully low-slung Model S (despite being ancient now), but MB hands off a hastily-built pregnant slug you can't see out of going forward.  AND changes the name. 

It's very weak..

Edited March 6, 2022 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

See this entire thread and supported articles as proof.

Corrected. 

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

They're literally not doing that tho. Who ever heard of a 'eqs'? Isn't is going to remind (the eight) people who remember the failed Equus??

On top of that, if MB really were the engineering company the ad men try to portray it as being, AND the brand was arguably at the zenith of it's popularity with the IC lineup.... wouldn't they find a way to take the existing bodies and drop them over a BE platform??  Tesla has a wonderfully low-slung Model S (despite being ancient now), but MB hands off a hastily-built pregnant slug you can't see out of going forward.  AND changes the name. 

It's very weak..

I don't think they want the EV to look the same as the gas car, although I would have preferred the electric cars look more like the existing design language.  

Also I won't be surprised if other brands start copying the EQS styling language.

[surreal1272]

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Also I won't be surprised if other brands start copying the EQS styling language.

No one has, up until this point, and no one will if they have a set of eyes and read about the many criticisms of said design. Sorry but that is purely fanboy talk there. 

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think they want the EV to look the same as the gas car

Then the fact that they retaining part of the lettering scheme is 100% irrelevant and pointless. 

[balthazar]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think they want the EV to look the same as the gas car

Well; duh. 

Unfortunately, they're following the path toyoter laid down- making a wildly different looking sedan just because it's electric. 
What that says is mercedes' is dumping their existing design language for... this.  Unfortunately, it's crap.

What that also says, were you to say it; that the existing design language "failed" because it's getting dumped.

[G. David Felt]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:08 PM, smk4565 said:

Daimler(last year, now called Mercedes-Benz)  has 2 car brands, Smart and Mercedes, plus the commercial trucks that would have been in last year's revenue.  And Volkswagen has VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Ducati, Scania and Man.   I did find Mercedes Car and Vans revenue for 2021 was $119.8 Billion, and Mercedes-Benz Mobility (the finance and insurance arm) made $30.5 Billion. So $150.3 billion combined, still makes them #5 on that list without Daimler Trucks and if you put Stellantis in there.   Tesla since they aren't on there was $53 billion.  Heck is Mercedes has a strong year they might beat Ford.  And I don't expect their 1 car brand to out-revenue the 14 combined brands over at Stellantis or VW.

According to the Mercedes-Benz group that makes up everything we have the following:

On February 1, 2022, the previous Daimler AG was renamed Mercedes-Benz Group AG and Daimler Mobility AG became Mercedes-Benz Mobility AG. The former Daimler Trucks & Buses division was listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange on December 10, 2021. Figures within financial statements have therefore been split into continued and discontinued operations. In line with the newly formed Group divisions, the reporting structure and the prior-year figures have been adjusted accordingly. All figures are preliminary and unaudited.

Mercedes-Benz Group revenue reached €168 billion (2020: €154.3 billion). The share from continuing operations was €133.9 billion (2020: €121.8 billion). Group EBIT was €29.1 billion (2020: €6.6 billion), thereof the share from continuing operations was €16.0 billion (2020: €6.1 billion). Adjusted EBIT, reflecting the underlying business, was €19.2 billion (2020: €8.6 billion). Group net profit was €23.4 billion (2020: €4.0 billion). The share from continuing operations was €11.1 billion (2020: €4.0 billion).

In 2021, net profit excluding the deconsolidation result rose to €14.2 billion (2020: €4.0 billion). Earnings per share, excluding the deconsolidation result, rose by 280% to €12.89 (2020: €3.39).

So the end result is we have a solid company but let's see as various section wind down how 2022 ends up as Compared to other auto companies, MB was down 5% over 2020 sales in auto's sold and the numbers for 2022 are not stellar yet either.

2021 (Full Year) Global: Mercedes-Benz and Smart Sales Worldwide by Region and Model - Car Sales Statistics (best-selling-cars.com)

Europe has even stricter air standards that started with 2022 and as per the report above, MB is expected to see continued decline in ICE sales while growth in electric, but not expected to offset the ICE decline yet.

[smk4565]

20 hours ago, balthazar said:

Well; duh. 

Unfortunately, they're following the path toyoter laid down- making a wildly different looking sedan just because it's electric. 
What that says is mercedes' is dumping their existing design language for... this.  Unfortunately, it's crap.

What that also says, were you to say it; that the existing design language "failed" because it's getting dumped.

It isn't being dumped, here is the 2022 C-class, and the 2023 E-class spy shots look fairly similar.  This look isn't going anywhere, also this car looks way better than the current C-class, which I think looks worse than the 2008-2013 model.

[balthazar]

The current IC look is fine, if unremarkable / dated.
Sure; it's here in '22, but it's not going to be around once MB goes all-in on batteries.

You know; eventually.

[G. David Felt]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It isn't being dumped, here is the 2022 C-class, and the 2023 E-class spy shots look fairly similar.  This look isn't going anywhere, also this car looks way better than the current C-class, which I think looks worse than the 2008-2013 model.

4 Banger E-Class versus V6 Cadillac, yea, I would take the Cadillac.

[Robert Hall]

8 hours ago, David said:

4 Banger E-Class versus V6 Cadillac, yea, I would take the Cadillac.

I would also, since I loathe 4 cyl engines. 

[smk4565]

19 hours ago, David said:

4 Banger E-Class versus V6 Cadillac, yea, I would take the Cadillac.

The CT5 and XT5 have a 4-cylinder too, but if you mean a 6 cylinder CT5 is 4-cylinder E-class money, that's a valid comparison.  

But also the C43, GLC43, SL43, etc are getting a 390 hp 4-cylinder, the C63/E63 a 640 hp 4-cylinder hybrid, so you are going to get what used to be V8 power with high gas mileage, which given the likelihood of $5 a gallon gas, that is going to look appealing.  

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5 and XT5 have a 4-cylinder too, but if you mean a 6 cylinder CT5 is 4-cylinder E-class money, that's a valid comparison.  

But also the C43, GLC43, SL43, etc are getting a 390 hp 4-cylinder, the C63/E63 a 640 hp 4-cylinder hybrid, so you are going to get what used to be V8 power with high gas mileage, which given the likelihood of $5 a gallon gas, that is going to look appealing.  

Except the high gas mileage in a turbo charge performance sedan is not true. The whole Turbos on small engines give you V8 power with 4 banger gas efficiency is a lie.

[Robert Hall]

11 minutes ago, David said:

Except the high gas mileage in a turbo charge performance sedan is not true. The whole Turbos on small engines give you V8 power with 4 banger gas efficiency is a lie.

And generally turbo 4s aren't known for their longevity and reliability, aren't they?  More stress...maybe I'm old school, but I still view 4s as something for small entry-level subcompacts and compacts, and some small sports cars...not something aspirational or worthy of being in a luxury car brand, IMO.  If I'm buying a luxury car, I'd want a 6 or a V8, not a plebeian 4 cyl..

Edited March 9, 2022 by Robert Hall

[smk4565]

55 minutes ago, David said:

Except the high gas mileage in a turbo charge performance sedan is not true. The whole Turbos on small engines give you V8 power with 4 banger gas efficiency is a lie.

Except an AMG CLA45 is faster around Virginia International Raceway than a Supra 3.0, ATS-V, Gulia Quadrafoglio, Panamera Turbo and Challenger Hellcat Widebody.  (Tied with a C6 Z06) 

Although 20/29 mpg isn’t that good, the 48 volt I-6 Mercedes get around 22/30, but the CLA doesn’t have a mild hybrid system yet, the new C-class does, so we’ll have to see those mpg numbers, plus I think that dual clutch transmission on the CLA isn’t good on gas like the 9 speed torque converter automatic.

[balthazar]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

ATS-V

We all see what you did there.

 

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Panamera Turbo

Panamera Turbo logged a 2.47.8 lap.
CT5-V BW did a 2.49.4.
CT4-V BW did a 2.55.6.
Gulia Quadrafoglio did a 2.57.2.
CLA45 did a 2.58.2.

[surreal1272]

On 3/7/2022 at 7:07 PM, smk4565 said:

It isn't being dumped, here is the 2022 C-class, and the 2023 E-class spy shots look fairly similar

Umm, yeah it is. Eventually, those IC models are being dumped for their EV counterparts and thus far (judging by the EQS and EQE), it literally doesn't look pretty. These changes you are referring to are all stop gaps while they transition to EV, so yes, they are getting dumped before the end of the decade.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

(Tied with a C6 Z06) 

You had to go two generations back to find a Vette it can run with? Really? That's your bar here?

[smk4565]

I am just saying a turbo 4 especially is electrified in some way offers plenty of performance.  Obviously not as much as a V8 turbo, but let’s look at regular V6’s like the 300ish hp 3.5 liter Honda and Toyota V6, the 3.6 GM V6, those don’t even beat most turbo 4’s in torque.