Chevy Considering A Chevelle Or Monte Carlo?

[evok]

  Camaro, Chevelle/Monte Carlo, GTO and Velite will sustain themselves because they are real, if you will.

Sorry but that is not the case.

Edited June 16, 2006 by evok

[hyperv6]

Time for a reality check here. There is only so much room for coupes in todays market. an it would be foolish for a company like Chevy to offer 3 coupes.

I feel the Camaro if going to be fine due to the nature of the car just as the Mustang.

On the other hand The monte has just been hanging on the last few years.

I think a Chevelle might do ok if they do a few thing to make it different and much user friendly than most coupes. Say the hidden doors like a Saturn for better entry.

But I would rather see the money go to a new Line say like a NG Kappa that could spawn a line of Mini like Nomads or a fun to drive small sedan and coupe that could be used in the entire GM line.

Sedans are where the volume and profits are and wasting money on more than one coupe per line would be a shame for a company that needs money in better areas.

This is from someone who grew up in a family that owned a new Chevelle every year from 67-73 and I owned a 68 SS that I still miss today. I love them but there is just not a market big enough to take 3 models from Chevy.

Today people want utility with their vehicle no mater if it is a Mini van SUV or car. Heck my GP can carry a 9 foot ladder today at 136 MPH, try that in a 69 GP with the trunk shut.

You have to think like the buying public not the enthusiast on this one today.

[cavalier36]

there just isnt a market for large 2 door coupes like there used to be.. there used to be four W body coupes but now were down to one.. we have seen the eldorado and the rivera disapear without direct 2 door replacements..

if there is going to be a new chevelle or monte carlo it will probably be the same car as the next GTO but with a V6,and cloth seats standard, and probably some diffrent sheet metal..

[AM6_Cutlass]

From GM Inside News.

I've been told and shown concepts for both a Chevelle and a Monte Carlo. They want to have a coupe mate for the Impala, though they don't expect that coupe to sell as well as Camaro (more in the 80,000 range). Both concepts share parts underneath the skin and have fairly similar interiors but very different sheet metal, as you'd expect with the nameplates.

The Monte design is very much drawn from a 1972 Monte Carlo. The nose isn't that long (as would be expected in a modern car), but it's good sized. It has a more modern Chevy grille - not the egg crate on the 1972, though they do incorporate some hints of one.

The Chevelle is primarily based off the 1967 model. You can see how well the Chevy bar would fit on that car. The Chevelle concept is a hatchback, though. It looks similar with the how it slopes toward the back but the whole rear window lifts up and the trunk is accessible from the rear bench. Those seats can also fold down.

Both have the same wheelbase as the future GTO but they will be more tame. The GTO is a V8 only model with plenty of ponies. The pix I've seen of it also indicate it will be a five seater, so Camaro and G6 coupes are likely to be the only 2+2s in the GM lineup that I can think of off the top of my head. The next G6 may eliminate the 2+2 feature to leave it as a Camaro distinctive.

Chevelle or Monte Carlo will have good power available at the top end but the bulk of the models sold would likely either be a smaller V8 or an updated version of the 3.9L V6 that should output 300hp. The SS would probably hang around 400 while the next gen GTO should be at 450-500 just like the 'Vette will be when GDI, VVT, and three valves are added to the current LS2. GM is deciding which they will go with. I lean toward the Chevelle. I think the name is highly respected now and Monte Carlo is worn out a bit. The current FWD iteration of it is okay but out of touch with its heritage. Chevelle is a highly sought after car nowadays and I've been told GM market research says the nameplate has a more positive vibe fromt he public and is likely to sell better, especially if based on the late 60s models (plenty of variety there). My guess is Monte Carlo will be gone after the 2008 model year because the Impala is slated for 2009 and may be introduced early. They want to get the new Impala to market not too long after Malibu because they believe the new Malibu will kill current Impala sales. They're fairly close in size, though Malibu is a bit smaller than the current Impala. The problem is that GM may not get the six-speed autos ready for the W-body with replacements coming. Malibu will have a six-speed standard at launch if Lutz has his way. He wants that base I4 to have a six-speed auto and believes that the cost difference between the old four-speed and the six will be small. They really want the Malibu to lead in standard features and in value, but they need to replace the Impala. Chances are the bulk of current Impalas built after the new Malibu hits will be sold very cheaply to rental companies. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if GM attempts to launch both the Malibu and the RWD Impala at the same time, though that's a hunch based on my own thoughts. I could really see GM launching Malibu, Impala/Chevelle, and Camaro all in the same year with a new Cobalt coming a year after.

I somehow doubt it...but, then again the Camaro wasn't suppose to be here. :AH-HA_wink:

Dear GM: Put a front bench in this Chevelle/Monte Carlo, and you will find one in my garage. I'm itching to get rid of the Impala already.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Hear me out for a second, if you don't mind.

My opinion on the coupe issue is that they are not as impractical as you would think. I tagged along with my parents when they were looking for a third car for the family (which that would be the gray Impala that sits parked in the driveway) and they looked at a nice Monte Carlo LS. Of course, I ended up being the asshole in the backseat, and getting in and out wasn't that much of a task, really, for someone clipping close to six feet, give or take an inch.

The next day, they tested out an Impala (without me being there, I might add -- if I had tagged along, they would've managed to get a car with a CD player and a passenger side key cylinder or buy what they now have for much less than $14,000), which they bought. I rode in the back of the car later that day, and there wasn't much difference in comfort. Of course, there was a few more inches of legroom, but I could have lived with the coupe just as well.

As a bonus, the MC was priced similar to the Impala and was better equipped, although they both had the 3400 V6. Not to mention the interior (Impala's actually reminded me of a U-Haul F-150 interior at first) and exterior were just flat out more attractive and much, much better, despite the Monte's huge ass. (I like junk in the trunk, though, so maybe that found attractiveness was just me.)

Later on, my parents agreed with me.

So why the Impala, then? It was more courteous to passengers for one. And -- dear God, smack the preacher -- there were the cheaper insurance rates! Maybe we can blame the death on the coupe on the insurance companies and their lack of automotive knowledge. (Note to John Q. Allstate: Two-doors doesn't mean that a car will go faster. We also tested a two-door Grand Am with a EcoTec and it was something of a slug.)

Would a Chevelle and Monte Carlo survive in today's marketplace? Well, I would have to say "maybe". But, if some of you would bother to re-read the original post with the news bulletin, Chevy is just considering a coupe counterpart for the Impala. It doesn't mean that one or the other or both will hit the blacktop of Hometown Chevy in late oh-eight.

And, don't forget, the Camaro will never fill the market the Monte caters to, mostly due to image. The Monte is the gentleman's hot rod, the take-it easy-and-speak-softly-while-you-kick-ass muscle car, the ying to the Camaro's youthful, rebellious yang.

The car doesn't really appeal to people in my ageframe (although I do like the car in all of it's forms, even the hospital Jell-O front-driver), either. Maybe that's why Chevy put a classic '70s runner in the latest installment of the threadbare "Fast And The Furious" series.

The Chevelle, on the other hand, comes close to breeching on Camaro turf. It does, however, still matain a safe distance, though. For a car in the very early seventies that's close to size to today's Impala, it sends a muscular, masculine image, mostly due thanks to the lengendary SS454 semi-sleeper that could kick exotic ass. It's somehow youthful -- it most certainly appeals to me -- but somehow it manages to appeal to the old fogey crowd, too. Add in the proposed, hatch, though, and I most certainly have my doubts of grandma buying the LTZ package to grab groceries.

Looking at the Chevelle that way, I'll be damned if the proposed car isn't a bit confusing.

I guess time will tell what happens on this issue folks. It's still wondering in the haze around the lakeshore and stubbing it's toes on rocks.

Edited June 17, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[knightfan26917]

I was going to post in this thread ... but, something caught my eye....

My opinion on the coupe issue is that they are not as impractical as you would think.

I agree with this statement. I've noticed several people point to the impracticality of coupes. But, if you compare today's coupes to yesterday's coupes, coupes are a leap forward in practicality.

For instance, none of my MCs ('72, '76, '79, '81, '87) have a fold down back seat for access to and more versatility for the trunk. My '00 LS did.

None of my MCs have a passenger seat that easily scoots forward to allow easier entry into the rear seat for the passengers. My '00 LS did.

Food for thought, anyway.....

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

What's it like to buy your favorite car brand new? Wish I knew...

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[Imaj]

I'd like them to keep the Monte Carlo name.

[prototype66]

I was going to post in this thread ... but, something caught my eye....

I agree with this statement.  I've noticed several people point to the impracticality of coupes.  But, if you compare today's coupes to yesterday's coupes, coupes are a leap forward in practicality.

For instance, none of my MCs ('72, '76, '79, '81, '87) have a fold down back seat for access to and more versatility for the trunk.  My '00 LS did.

None of my MCs have a passenger seat that easily scoots forward to allow easier entry into the rear seat for the passengers.  My '00 LS did.

Food for thought, anyway.....

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

What's it like to buy your favorite car brand new?  Wish I knew...

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

Well eaten. These innovations along with the possible 1/2 clam door would make this segment completely viable.

[Camino LS6]

I agree with OCN, there has been a severe lack of "real" coupes in the market for a very long time. With the exception of the F-body twins and the Mustang, (which are pony cars and really another segment) what has there been to choose from? Just the GTO and high end imports.

And no, the FWD cars DO NOT count. I love mid-large RWD coupes but would never touch one of these FWD pretenders.

So, for American style mid-large size RWD coupes, there has only been one limited edition model with a 3 year model run since '87-'88. I'd say no one knows what this market could be right now. I do know I'd buy one.

[Mr.Krinkle]

doesnt there seem to be a more intense design focussed on 4doors with coupe styling, the benz' and auidis for instance. do the germnans know something we dont or are they just looking to create another new trend?

there is so much more practicality with 4 doors, however you arrange them.

[greg_nate]

My sources say we'll get a Chevelle and Monte Carlo and 80,000 would be a goodmonthly sales estimate.  You heard it here first. :wink:

80K/month is quite a bit...what about the Impala? Is it going to become more more of a niche vehicle, giving up numbers to the Chevelle and Monte?

[Guest YellowJacket894]

^ I don't know if I'd take that post seriously if I were you...

[ocnblu]

I think Chevrolet can support two RWD coupes. Camaro and... whatever they call the two door companion to Impala. The Chevrolet brand has a lot of power, a lot of overt and latent loyalty. The right products are all that's needed to really start a fire that Toyota cannot duplicate.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Just in case Detroit didn't get the memo, they're better off emulating the way they were in the early '70s than Japan in the late '80s.

[Robert Hall]

So, for American style mid-large size RWD coupes, there has only been one limited edition model with a 3 year model run since '87-'88. I'd say no one knows what this market could be right now. I do know I'd buy one.

Yes, as far as GM..Ford also had their mid-large RWD coupes through '96...(Thunderbird/Cougar)

[evok]

I think Chevrolet can support two RWD coupes.  Camaro and... whatever they call the two door companion to Impala.  The Chevrolet brand has a lot of power, a lot of overt and latent loyalty.  The right products are all that's needed to really start a fire that Toyota cannot duplicate.

The Camaro is what they will call the 2 door companion to the the Impala.

GM does not need and can not support another silly 2 door rwd vehicle in the portfolio.

Where is the volume to come from? Especially if there is a replacement for the GTO and a sigma based coupe for Cadillac.

Not to mention a rwd Challenger from DCX.

The coupe/2 door market is small and lacks appeal and staying power in the market.

[76ChevyTrucker]

Another word from me on this one. I say keep the Camaro as a bare-bones, go out and kick someone's ass through a wall car. Then, lets add in a four-door sedan, strap the Camaro's underpinnigs, call it Impala. Then lets come up with a wagon, two and four door variants, make it both bare bones and fully loaded, and call it Chevelle, then make a VERY lux coupe and call it Monte Carlo.....but I dunno, this might not work, but it sounds plausible to me.

[Chazman]

The Camaro is what they will call the 2 door companion to the the Impala.

GM does not need and can not support another silly 2 door rwd vehicle in the portfolio.

Where is the volume to come from?  Especially if there is a replacement for the GTO and a sigma based coupe for Cadillac.

I don't disagree. Camaro and the Caddy will essentially cover a large spectrum of the RWD coupe market for GM.

But for the sake of argument, if GTO is to be a larger-than-Camaro coupe, I can't see how a business case could be made for it economically, (at anything close to current volume), without there being a Monte Carlo twin to piggyback a GTO program off of.

Edited June 20, 2006 by Chazman

[ocnblu]

At the very least, there needs to be a six cylinder version of the GTO, called something other than GTO.

If Chevrolet stays in NASCAR, they can sell enough RWD Monte Carlos to keep the nameplate going. RWD alone is enough to shake the car out of its doldrums, guaranteed.

[hyperv6]

I was going to post in this thread ... but, something caught my eye....

I agree with this statement.  I've noticed several people point to the impracticality of coupes.  But, if you compare today's coupes to yesterday's coupes, coupes are a leap forward in practicality.

For instance, none of my MCs ('72, '76, '79, '81, '87) have a fold down back seat for access to and more versatility for the trunk.  My '00 LS did.

None of my MCs have a passenger seat that easily scoots forward to allow easier entry into the rear seat for the passengers.  My '00 LS did.

Food for thought, anyway.....

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

What's it like to buy your favorite car brand new?  Wish I knew...

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

Bet my 04 GP has much better ability to carry cargo like a 9 foot ladder with the trunk shut. and getting in and out of the back seat no seasts need to be moved or people folded up than any Monte Built to date.

I agree the new coupes are better but they still can's out do a 4 door sedan in the eyes of the buying public.

I am a coupe guy but have to deal with the truth that the Coupe market is a limitied market today and shows little sign of changing.

Heck they even killed the 2 door Blazer Tahoe due to the lack of sales.

[evok]

I don't disagree.  Camaro and the Caddy will essentially cover a large spectrum of the RWD coupe market for GM.

But for the sake of argument, if GTO is to be a larger-than-Camaro coupe, I can't see how a business case could be made for it economically, (at anything close to current volume), without  there being a Monte Carlo twin to piggyback a GTO program off of.

A GTO does not need a Monte Carlo for a business case, it just needs other zeta/rwd sisters for GM to pull it off. The GTO's problem is the Camaro and the Camaro's problem would be the GTO.

Here is the issue. When developing the Camaro business case, the product mix is a significant factor. This refers to the premium GM will charge for the LSx option over the V6 or other high performace variant.

That profit will factor into the whole program and balance the questionable profit at the lower end of the product mix.

So now, if GM decides on a GTO for Pontiac, those sales begin to eat into the profitable sales range of the Camaro, especially at the highly profitable price point. Those 10-15k highly profitable sales lost to a potential GTO on a less profitable vehicle could very well make or break the Camaro. Any other additional coupe variant, if it be Chevelle or Monte Carlo will only eat into the Camaro's sales.

So any additional coupes off zeta that is priced along side the Camaro ANY WHERE near the price point threatens the profitablity of that program. And if GM decides to develope a GTO and push the price point higher, than the Pontiac begins to encroach on Cadillac and their coupe.

A GTO is possible off of zeta, the key factor will be to cut development (tooling) to offset any lost Camaro sales and most likely that means, a GTO would be a limited volume vehicle and a higher price point than the current vehicle or GM will change the formula completely so that it does not compete directly with the Camaro on concept at all. With that statement I refer more to the Dodge Charger type of approach where there will be a G8 and a GTO will be just a model of that body style. But in that case, it would not be a coupe as we currently know the GTO.

Edited June 20, 2006 by evok

[ocnblu]

A two door 300 and Charger would sell well enough too. Damn, a 300C coupe or two door convertible would rock.

[evok]

A two door 300 and Charger would sell well enough too.  Damn, a 300C coupe or two door convertible would rock.

Yes - it is called the Challenger.

[ocnblu]

No it isn't.

[evok]

For the money that will be invested into the Challenger, DCX should sell more units at a higher price point and on top of that will get more press time and coverage than they would if they offered 2-door versions of the current LX cars (based up coupe-sedan mix of other vehicles on the market). And, the Challenger is only an LX car with a new look.

[ocnblu]

The Challenger won't appeal to people who would buy a 300C coupe or convertible. The Challenger will be doomed to boutique status if it is priced too high. Mustang has set the price for this segment. Any competitor must meet Ford pricewise for sustained success.

Chrysler could do what GM should do. Give us a 300 coupe and convertible. Challenger can suffice as Charger's coupe cousin.

Ford needs the 427 Concept as their next fullsize sedan. A Marquis version for Mercury with the same attitude as McGarret's on Hawaii 5-0 (hint: marketing!) would lift Mercury out of the grave, and a Cougar on the Mustang wheelbase would help as well.

Edited June 20, 2006 by ocnblu

[Chazman]

A GTO does not need a Monte Carlo for a business case, it just needs other zeta/rwd sisters for GM to pull it off.  The GTO's problem is the Camaro and the Camaro's problem would be the GTO.

That's my point. Which one would be it's sister?

If GM wants it to be a larger than Camaro coupe, I suppose it could be on a stretched wheelbase Camaro platform.....but would GM spend the money on such a program just for a low volume GTO? Certainly, the sales performance of the VZ GTO hasn't pressed the case within GM, that such a formula would be worth the money for GTO alone.

Or could they re-jigger a sedan to become a large coupe? Sure, but certainly for not less than $100-$200 million (just my guess).

I just don't think GM is looking to invest alot of cash into a possible future GTO right now, ( if ever).

OTOH, a max performance version of an imported, low volume, Commodore, would be such an elegant solution to this GTO question. Let the flaming begin on that....

Edited June 20, 2006 by Chazman

[Chazman]

Oh, and one more thing....

I agree completely that a new GTO coupe would cannabalize Camaro.

[evok]

The Challenger won't appeal to people who would buy a 300C coupe or convertible.  The Challenger will be doomed to boutique status if it is priced too high.  Mustang has set the price for this segment.  Any competitor must meet Ford pricewise for sustained success.

Chrysler could do what GM should do.  Give us a 300 coupe and convertible.  Challenger can suffice as Charger's coupe cousin.

Ford needs the 427 Concept as their next fullsize sedan.  A Marquis version for Mercury with the same attitude as McGarret's on Hawaii 5-0 would lift Mercury out of the grave, and a Cougar on the Mustang wheelbase would help as well.

The Ford Taurus and the Ford Explorer killed the coupe market in the 1980s. GM is still paying the price today because of the GM-10 fiasco and product mix which was coupe biased and the public moved to more practical vehicles. The market has changed and there is no denying that.

That is not to say there is not a market for coupes. But the market has changed and OEMS must be smart about how they style and package their coupes in order to generate the volume they need for profitability. There is only 1 standard in the coupe market and that is the Mustang and should remain so for the near future. Everything else is boutique or niche. That will include the Challenger and the new Camaro will be a hybrid niche/mass program when compared to the Mustang and the 160+ thousand they sell. All three might be Pony cars in theory, but in execution each vehicle will be very different in approach and expectations in the market by the respective manufacturer.

Hystorically speaking, coupes did not loose there appeal because of lack of offerening by the OEMs. They began to die out resulting from lack of demand. There is no indication that has changed.

[ocnblu]

The G-body coupes sold well up until the time they were killed, replaced by the GM-10/W body cars... which were so wrong. GM killed themselves then.

[evok]

The G-body coupes sold well up until the time they were killed, replaced by the GM-10/W body cars... which were so wrong.  GM killed themselves then.

By todays standards, the sales were excellent, but after just looking at the sales they were dropping after the release of the Taurus/Sable. And after 1988, that is another story all together.

To add insult to injury, I checked out the following:

1984 Riviera 48k

1987 Riviera 16k

1984 Eldorado 70k

1987 Eldorado 21k

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Consider this for a second: the Monte Carlo mentioned in the starting post of this thread is going to be greenlighted. Consider all of the classic Montes being exposed in theatres. "Fast & The Furious: Tokyo Drift" features a classic very early '70s Monte and (I'm going by what knightfan said here in another thread elsewhere on these forums) "Cars" has a part where a classic late '70s Monte has a role as a narrator.

Makes sense when you consider the new Transformer's movie will have the Camaro to maybe expose people to the upcoming car.

Edited June 20, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[ehaase]

I recall from reading Automotive News 20 years ago that sales of the G body coupes began to drop markedly after the 1984 model year.

[evok]

I recall from reading Automotive News 20 years ago that sales of the G body coupes began to drop markedly after the 1984 model year.

True enough:

Note: Some of the vehicle sales "may" inclue 4 doors.

1982 Monte Carlo - 204k

1986 Monte Carlo - 111k

1982 Regal - 222k

1986 Regal - 78k

1982 Toronado - 34k

1986 Toronado - 16k

1982 Grand Prix/Boneville - 158k (Note:GM produced 131k GP in 1981)

1986 Grand Prix/Boneville - 89k (Note: GM Produced 36k GPs in 1986)

Edited June 20, 2006 by evok

[ocnblu]

evok's sales comparisons above prove my point that GM killed themselves with the drastic downsizing, and subsequent loss of authenticity and character of two of GM's most revered nameplates. It was one thing to go from 1978 to 1979, but from '84 to '85 was a complete and utter disaster for the E bodies. Same thing for the G-bodies when they were switched, nay, gutted, to become the GM-10/W bodies. GM at that point shied away from what they did best... provide cars Americans wanted, felt good to buy and be seen in.

EDIT: this post was meant for evok's 10:51 post. evok's above post could be interpreted to mean GM neglected the G bodies through these years. Instead of freshening a proven formula, they let the cars stagnate, then threw everything out and stuck us with the GM-10s in 1988.

Edited June 20, 2006 by ocnblu

[evok]

I have all the data in front of me at the moment in hard copy format (argh):

Couple of observations.

1) Coupes in the midsized segment for GM were on there way down.

2) There was a switch from the G bodies to the Ciera, Century, Celebrity and 6000 starting in 1982.

3) Ford picked up 300k sales with the Taurus/Sable.

4) The new for 1986 E/K bodies were a disaster.

5) Starting in 1987 the Ciera, Century, Celebrity and 6000 were each down about 100k vehicles over 1986.

Even still GM's passenger car sales.

1982 - 3.5 million

1986 - 4.5 million

1987 - 3.5 million

Ford

1982 - 1.3 million

1986 - 2.0 million

1987 - 2.0 million

Enjoy the blast from the blast. It has been a long time for me since I have looked at these numbers. These reference books are so old they do not even separate out the pickup by make and model. The Japanese are called other and VW is still itemized as being a serious importer/transplant.

Edited June 20, 2006 by evok

[Shantanu]

Wow, looking at those numbers, things were definitely a lot more volatile back in those days.

[ocnblu]

Yes, of course, A-body sales also ate into G-body sales in later years. The FWD A cars were another disaster. It was disaster after disaster for GM throughout the 80's... starting with the FWD X-bodies in 1979. They got away from what they did best... for many reasons... fuel mileage was one huge thing.

Now that engines are so much more efficient than they were then... it is high time for GM to return to their RWD roots for their larger cars. Chevrolet needs a long wheelbase sedan, wagon and coupe and a short wheelbase coupe and convertible. Pontiac needs a short wheelbase sedan, and long wheelbase sedan and coupe. Buick needs a long wheelbase sedan and long 2 door convertible. Zeta baby.

Edited June 20, 2006 by ocnblu

[evok]

I wish I could just post the whole chart. Here are the A Bodies for select model years.

Celebrity:

1982 - 212k

1986 - 408k

1987 - 306k

6000

1982 - 55k

1986 - 199k

1987 - 120k

Ciera

1982 - 113k

1986 - 329k

1987 - 244k

Century

1982 - 99k

1986 - 240k

1987 - 147k

For Reference:

Taurus

1986 - 263k

1987 - 354k

Sable

1986 - 98k

1987 - 104k

[ehaase]

My recollection - and it could well be flawed - is that the original plan was for the 1985 N body coupes to replace the 1981 G body coupes. Things were very depressing in the country in the late 1970's and early 1980's, and there were great fears about future oil prices. The Grand Am was supposed to replace the Grand Prix, the Somerset Regal was supposed to be the Regal, and the Calais was supposed to be the Cutlass Supreme. However, after fuel prices dropped, the G bodies remained in production and the N bodies were renamed and replaced or supplemented the X bodies, as sedan versions were added for 1986. I may be wrong about this, but GM did not originally plan to let the G body coupes stagnate for so long. Of course, GM then developed the expensive W body program, which was a mess at the beginning.

[evok]

My recollection - and it could well be flawed - is that the original plan was for the 1985 N body coupes to replace the 1981 G body coupes.  Things were very depressing in the country in the late 1970's and early 1980's, and there were great fears about future oil prices. The Grand Am was supposed to replace the Grand Prix, the Somerset Regal was supposed to be the Regal, and the Calais was supposed to be the Cutlass Supreme. However, after fuel prices dropped, the G bodies remained in production and the N bodies were renamed and replaced or supplemented the X bodies, as sedan versions were added for 1986.  I may be wrong about this, but GM did not originally plan to let the G body coupes stagnate for so long.  Of course, GM then developed the expensive W body program, which was a mess at the beginning.

I could be wrong, but I thought that the W-Bodies were supposed to replace both the A and G cars when all was said and done. I remember the G coupes were given a reprieve for a couple of years and the old A cars lived until about 1997. All of that because the W cars were not well received and expensive because they were delayed a couple years because of the Smith re-org.

But time goes on and memories begin to fade.

[hyperv6]

I could be wrong, but I thought that the W-Bodies were supposed to replace both the A and G cars when all was said and done.  I remember the G coupes were given a reprieve for a couple of years and the old A cars lived until about 1997.  All of that because the W cars were not well received and expensive because they were delayed a couple years because of the Smith re-org.

But time goes on and memories begin to fade.

Evok you are correct on the W replacing the G and A bodies. That is what really happened.

The N were intended to be the original replacment but that plan did not last very long as GM relized their Smith extra downsized cars on all platforms were not doing well.

They went to the back up plan and did the W cars before they killed off the last of the A and G RWD cars.

I think your GM numbers for the coupes speak volumes of their lack of sales at GM. It makes it plan it was a dying market.

I think yould easily show the same for all the other doomed coupes like the Cougar, T Bird, Town car, Mk VII, LTD/Crown Vic, Impala/Caprice, Bonneville, 88, Le sabre, etc.

One just has to look at the coupes the American car companies made in the 70's and to start the 80's and see the decline in sales of all of them. They did not stop building them because they were making money on them.

If there was money to be made there we would have the cars from all the MFG to back it up, but there's just is no market with the general public so we have few coupes today.

The Taurus run away sales was the final nail in the coupes coffin as pointed out by Evok.

Lets face it that it is more about functionality and utility today and that is still something a coupe can not easily supply. They getting a 3 year old in and out of a car seat in a GTO vs a GP! moving seat or not.

[Cortazzo]

There is a market for two coupes, but GM has to work hard to keep the variable costs low so they don't need a ton of volume to make it work. There are a ton of retiring baby boomers who will have lots of $ and no kids at home to cart around anymore. They won't buy camaros, because they won't want the low ride height and tighter quarters that a camaro (or mustang) provide. However, a sexy two door that has generous room and a v8 might appeal to that aging demographic more than the lackluster current monte does. As a young man, I bought myself a small two door coupe, my older dad loves how it looks, but would never get one for himself, it's too small for him. But if he had the disposable money to get something hot and relatively comfy, he'd probably buy it.

[Cortazzo]

The Taurus run away sales was the final nail in the coupes coffin as pointed out by Evok.

Lets face it that it is more about functionality and utility today and that is still something a coupe can not easily supply. They getting a 3 year old in and out of a car seat in a GTO vs a GP! moving seat or not.

Good points made by all on the coupe market. There is a market for it, but not in the 80k+ volumes. I think there is plenty of room for Camaro, 100k is a little high, but if it brings conquest buyers then it's completely possible.

The difference today is in the demographics, in the 80s and 90s boomers had lots of children who were growing up and getting too big to fit in the back of their coupes, so the sedan/suv/minivan craze started. All of those people that bought these cars don't need all of that utility anymore, and would be attracted to a creatively packaged hot looking product. A RWD/AWD fullsize coupe might attract this kind of buyer, considering there isn't really any competition in the full size non luxury coupe market. I'm not saying they'd sell 100k a year of these, but 40 or 50 is certainly in the cars if GM can afford to make that many to piggyback off the Impala (which they only plan to sell 150-170k of in RWD guise anyway). Obviously more than a camaro and a full size coupe in the chevy lineup is crazy, only MB can get away with such uselessly overlapping products).

On the other hand, they can just make the Impala a really swoopy 4 door and keep everyone happy.

[knightfan26917]

Bet my 04 GP has much better ability to carry cargo like a 9 foot ladder with the trunk shut. and getting in and out of the back seat no seasts need to be moved or people folded up than any Monte Built to date.

*raises eyebrow very cautiously*

Gee, ya think a 4-door car has better access to the rear seats than a 2-door car does?

I agree the new coupes are better but they still can's out do a 4 door sedan in the eyes of the buying public.

Yes, d'oh. But, I wasn't comparing coupes to sedans.....

*sighs*

And yes, YellowJacket, a '76/'77 MC _is_ one of the announcers (Daryl Cartrip, I believe is the name) in "Cars".

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[Chazman]

FWIW, I think the coupe market will stop contracting and perhaps even start growing again. Mostly just my opinion though. Even with that there thought...there are only so many coupes that it makes reasonable sense to develop, build, market and sell.

Anyway, barring some unforeseen event, the Camaro is a certainty. The Cadillac coupe is a near certainty.

All this other Monte Carlo/Chevelle/GTO/ whathaveyou stuff is still virtual vaporware.

Besides, anyone see an opportunity for a NG FWD Monte Carlo?

[evok]

FWIW, I think the coupe market will stop contracting and perhaps even start growing again. Mostly just my opinion though. Even with that there thought...there are only so many coupes that it makes reasonable sense to develop, build, market and sell.

Depending on how you count the numbers the coupe slide has reached more or less a steady state with some fluctuation over the recent years.

The Solstice and Sky along with the New Mustang, new Civic, Cobalt have helped improve the sales. But one thing will will not change, the coupe move beyond a niche market into the mainstream status in once held.

[ehaase]

Wasn't the Monte Carlo orginally introduced to compete with the Thunderbird, which is now dead?

I think it was originally Chevrolet's version of the 1969 Grand Prix, which was the first of the lower priced personal luxury coupes on the intermediate platform. The Thunderbird was much more expensive and competed with the Riviera and Toronado. Ford didn't compete in the lower priced personal luxury coupe market until the 1974 Gran Torino Elite and much more effectively with the lower priced 1977 Thunderbird.

[guionM]

Evok and a few others have made the valid point that the coupe market isn't what it used to be. For some time the couple market has remained static, and it's a point I've brought up in the past.

However, there's something else to consider. As coupes were killed off, there were no spikes in the sales of the remaining coupes... something I'll call the pontiac syndrome: kill of models without replacements, then make an issue of how your sales have dropped." Consider these examples:

* When Ford killed off the Ford Probe, Mustang sales didn't spike.

* The death of the Thunderbird had zilch effect of the Monte Carlo.

* The Camaro's death did not send Monte Carlo's sales upwards. Ditto Cavalier coupe.

* Killing off the Grand Prix coupe, & the Regal coupe didn't send Monte Carlo's sales skywards.

* Ford killed the T-bird in order to help Lincoln Mk VIII sales. Didn't work.

* Killing Toronado didn't help Eldorado.

In ALL these instances, we have coupes whose sales dropped to a point where it was no longer feasible to redesign them, or they didn't sell enough to fit into factory plans, or the manufacturer believed that the sales of one would roll into the other if it was killed off. In every example, that isn't the case.

The point is that there could very well be a large number of potential coupe sales. Far larger than we think.

[evok]

The point is that there could very well be a large number of potential coupe sales. Far larger than we think.

I do agree with you that there is potential for growth in the segment beyond 2 seat or smaller 2+2 vehicles. I limit my comments to more along the lines of the traditional, sporty 2 door sedan market. i.e. Monte Carlo, Chevelle, Thunderbird segment as we can all agree how they would be ressurected today.

If the respective manufactuers could design a vehicle with enough emotional, irrational connection to the vehicles, I believe they could be successful and possibly profitable at a limited volume.

I pull the current GTO out of this discussion, because I believe it is not in the class of vehicle I am limiting my comments on.

By successful, I believe 35k vehicles on average for the life of the program would be just that. That is with premium pricing over the current or near term pony cars.

Styling is critical for that emotional connection. Any vehicle would have to be more than a two door version of its donor vehicle.

i.e. I believe there is a really limited market for a 2-Door LX.

At the same time the manufacturer has to very careful in this segment. This is the ADD market segment. What is hot today could be as cold as ice tomorrow.

Again, there could be profitable potential at limited, controlled volume, but it is not high volume potential.

The market could not handle the Camaro, Challenger, Monte, Chevelle, GTO, Mustang, Thunderbird like they once could in the past. It would have to be selective targeting and controled cost to make one or two larger coupes successful in the market.