GM Keynote @ CES 2022 is Virtual, yet we see the Chevrolet Truck and SUV to lead their BEV Portfolio! :Comments

[ccap41]

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

When will we see the 'mainline' Silverado EV multi-series / multi-configuration reveal??

With the way Ford built the Lightning, I could see them making an actual work truck in a couple years. I mean, it's just a cab/bed difference as it's all built into a current F150. I would think this is a fairly easy conversion. 

[G. David Felt]

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Yet... they sell.  6.5' beds are workable, but on the edge.  That final foot off (5.5') is not made for a LOT of commercial work.  Why a pickup should 'be fine' with smaller & smaller beds, when commercial vehicles include vans that are large and go up from there, makes little sense to me;  more room for more materials & equipment is moving forward, not less.

RE the Midgate extending the bed to 8-ft; that's fine for homeowners / occasional use. It's far less than ideal for contractors / commercial work, who seldom have the rear seat totally empty to enable spontaneous Midgate-dropping.  If you're picking up a dozen sheets of plywood for a job... where are your tools going to be for installation of such?

I understand & accept that most pickup are not used commercially, and the 5.5' bed is the majority (I take note on the road)... what I'm advocating for is the same level of choice going forward- independent cab/beds with a multitude of configurations to cater to the steady customer base. One single crew cab / short box isn't going to do that.

When will we see the 'mainline' Silverado EV multi-series / multi-configuration reveal??

I get the point you're making and I also hope that the initial launch with only 5' 10" bed is just for the start and that additional bed lengths like Rivian is exploring now in mules happens as it only makes sense that it would plus, we do have GM saying that they will be building HD models also so for there I expect 6- & 8-foot beds to be standard.

[balthazar]

^ Except I've read that the next gen Lightning (2025) will get a dedicated skateboard chassis- the current one uses a modified IC chassis. Will that put Ford in Chevy's 'boat'??

With the crazy prices these BE trucks are asking, and the supposed lesser costs of manufacturing, there had better be MORE configuration choices, not LESS.

1 minute ago, David said:

additional bed lengths like Rivian is exploring now in mules

LOL- they need to come up a whole FOOT to equal the shortest bed on the legacy brands! Long-ass way to go... but Rivian isn't interested in work/commercial pickup sales anyway.

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

^ Except I've read that the next gen Lightning (2025) will get a dedicated skateboard chassis- the current one uses a modified IC chassis. Will that put Ford in Chevy's 'boat'??

With the crazy prices these BE trucks are asking, and the supposed lesser costs of manufacturing, there had better be MORE configuration choices, not LESS.

I think that all depends what demand looks like. If they can make a business case for a single cab, 8' bed, they'll make one. If there's resistance in the commercial market towards EVs, they may hold off longer yet. 

[G. David Felt]

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ Except I've read that the next gen Lightning (2025) will get a dedicated skateboard chassis- the current one uses a modified IC chassis. Will that put Ford in Chevy's 'boat'??

With the crazy prices these BE trucks are asking, and the supposed lesser costs of manufacturing, there had better be MORE configuration choices, not LESS.

Rivian has proven that the skateboard chassis is actually easier to extend as they have their 8ft test mules out now. I expect this is more of a keep thing close to the vest. GM having stated they will have an HD EV line while ford has stated no plans for Super Duty EVs (Ford: No plans for all-electric Super Duty trucks (freep.com)) and yet has proven in their EV truck that it can pull more than Diesel with the Million pounds tow of the train and trucks.

I fully expect since GM has shown they can scale up and down the Ultium platform for various auto size needs that 6- and 8-foot trucks are in our future.

As Mary Barra has stated, HD Trucks will be out before 2035, yes long ways away, but does give them time to perfect their Ultium Platform.

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

The Hummer EV sounds like it's pretty capable off road, though it's massive size and weight would be a hindrance, IMO. 

Most likely way too heavy but I'm pretty sure they will try to market as off road lol.

59 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I think that all depends what demand looks like. If they can make a business case for a single cab, 8' bed, they'll make one. If there's resistance in the commercial market towards EVs, they may hold off longer yet. 

That sums it up best IMO. Like Ford, GM chose to put out the most popular cab configuration (four door crew cab) to "test the waters". If it is successful, then more will certainly come. It's just common sense to me.

[Robert Hall]

Just now, surreal1272 said:

Most likely way too heavy but I'm pretty sure they will try to market as off road lol.

Yeah, I can't imagine taking a 9000lb, 7 ft wide Canyonero-wannabe EV on a narrow Rocky Mountain trail...

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

but Rivian isn't interested in work/commercial pickup sales anyway.

And you know this for a fact?

 

Edit: Robert already answered it. Vans are already out which probably signals commercial pick ups in the future.

Edited January 7, 2022 by surreal1272

[Robert Hall]

Rivian does have their commercial van for Amazon and other delivery services.

https://rivian.com/fleet

[ccap41]

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

That sums it up best IMO. Like Ford, GM chose to put out the most popular cab configuration (four door crew cab) to "test the waters". If it is successful, then more will certainly come. It's just common sense to me.

You'd think it's common sense... 

[surreal1272]

Just now, Robert Hall said:

Yeah, I can't imagine taking a 9000lb, 7 ft wide Canyonero-wannabe EV on a narrow Rocky Mountain trail...

How much does a Unimog weigh? Close to 30K lbs, I believe and they are known for rock crawling. Give the Hummer some proper ground clearance, maybe a special off road package, and it can handle it. Narrow trails aside, it should be more than capable. 

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, surreal1272 said:

How much does a Unimog weigh? Close to 30K lbs, I believe and they are known for rock crawling. Give the Hummer some proper ground clearance, maybe a special off road package, and it can handle it. Narrow trails aside, it should be more than capable. 

The Hummer EV is awfully long and wide, though...maybe more suited for wide-open desert trails.

[surreal1272]

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The Hummer EV is awfully long and wide, though...maybe more suited for wide-open desert trails.

Which is fine too. Arizona folks will dig it lol.

[Robert Hall]

Given the extreme climate in AZ, it will be interesting to see how much adoption more mainstream EVs will have.  I saw plenty of Teslas in Scottsdale, but people buy Teslas because they are Teslas.  I did hear a lot of anecdotal griping about Nissan Leafs and sharply reduced range in the fecal summer weather in the Phoenix area.

[balthazar]

59 minutes ago, David said:

Rivian has proven that the skateboard chassis is actually easier to extend as they have their 8ft test mules out now.

Where /how did they “prove” this?

Any pics of the 8-ft bed mules?

[surreal1272]

13 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Given the extreme climate in AZ, it will be interesting to see how much adoption more mainstream EVs will have.  I saw plenty of Teslas in Scottsdale, but people buy Teslas because they are Teslas.  I did hear a lot of anecdotal griping about Nissan Leafs and sharply reduced range in the fecal summer weather in the Phoenix area.

The off roading crowd tends to hit the desert trails outside of the summer months. My cousin never took her Wrangler out on those trails during the summer. Whether it's EV or ICE, you know what that desert can do a Jeep or a Hummer when you're off the beaten path in 110-115 degree weather,

11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Where /how did they “prove” this?

Any pics of the 8-ft bed mules?

You are missing the bigger point here. They already have commercial applications (in the form of vans) and the writing is clearly on the wall for the pick ups here unless you just want to keep nitpicking on something you never planned on buying in the first place. A successful launch and supporting successful sales will determine whether they actually go to market with one. 

 

Sorry but I just don't the reasons for all the nitpicking.

[Robert Hall]

6 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The off roading crowd tends to hit the desert trails outside of the summer months. My cousin never took her Wrangler out on those trails during the summer. Whether it's EV or ICE, you know what that desert can do a Jeep or a Hummer when you're off the beaten path in 110-115 degree weather,

 

True... about the only off-roading I did in the summers was to drive up to Pinetop, Jerome, or Flag and take some back country gravel and dirt trails.   Though I did a lot of summer drives across the void on the 10 or the 8 to the OC or San Diego to visit beaches... 

As far as the desert in the summer, I had one insane runner co-worker that used to go out at noon for running in triple digit weather. 

[Robert Hall]

Just now, balthazar said:

I'm just asking a simple, pointed question; do all questions always have to balloon outward into 'the Grand Futuristic Vision' and actual data is banned now?

google it, I'm sure there are some spy photos out there...I saw a spy photo of a purported R1T extended cab version (with a smaller rear door than the crew cab), but the bed wasn't visible..

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

google it, I'm sure there are some spy photos out there...I saw a spy photo of a purported R1T extended cab version (with a smaller rear door than the crew cab), but the bed wasn't visible..

I think his point is there isn't anything that comes up when you search for that. I googled it and came up with zero spy shots or articles on it other than Insideevs.com saying they should make one. 

[Robert Hall]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I think his point is there isn't anything that comes up when you search for that. I googled it and came up with zero spy shots or articles on it other than Insideevs.com saying they should make one. 

Yeah, who knows what's going on..if Rivian is developing other bed length versions they are keeping it internal and quiet for now...

[G. David Felt]

@surreal1272 @Robert Hall Here are the specs of Unimog versus Hummer EV Truck.

Unimog U 4023/U 5023: Technical data - Mercedes-Benz Trucks - Trucks you can trust (mercedes-benz-trucks.com)

6 to 13 tones of weight depending on which model and configuration.

Wheelbase = 3,850 mm = 235-inch 

Body spec = 4,100 x 2,280 x 1,400 mm = 161.4 x 139.1 x 55.1 inches Length x Width x Height

Turning Radius = 16.4 meters = 54 feet

Ground Clearance = 10 to 20 inches depending on tire size.

Approach Angle = 41 to 46 degrees depending on model

Departure Angle = 39 to 50 degrees depending on model

Breakover Angle = none stated

Introducing the GMC HUMMER EVs | Electric Truck & SUV

Truck & SUV

Weight = 9,046 lbs or 

Wheelbase = 135.6 or 126.7 inches

Height = 79.1 or 77.8 inches

Width = 73.3 inches for both

Length = 216.8 or 206.7 inches

Turning Radius = 37 or 35 feet for 4-wheel steering / 44 or 45 feet for 2-wheel steering

Truck Ground Clearance = 11.9" to 15.9"

SUV Ground Clearance = 12" to 16"

Truck Approach Angle = 44 to 50 degrees

Truck Departure Angle = 33 to 39 degrees

Truck Breakover Angle = 25 to 32 degrees

SUV Approach Angle = 44 to 50 degrees

SUV Departure Angle = 41 to 50 degrees

SUV Breakover Angle = 27 to 35 degrees

 

Overall, I think the Hummer is a very capable off-road EV due to the hydraulic suspension system.

[balthazar]

The only thing I saw was the 'extended cab' mule version; the bed is only a little longer because they took the space out of the cab- it appears to be the same wheelbase. That would make it a circa 5.5' bed, not 8'.

It's interesting how we seem to be moving into a 'don't ask questions or raise doubts' scenario WRT battery electrics; just... accept. 

[G. David Felt]

35 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Where /how did they “prove” this?

Any pics of the 8-ft bed mules?

As has been stated the same platform has been used for extended length Amazon Prime Delivery vans which proves they can easily build them longer no problem. Then on top of this, this story with leaked picture of a extended length truck got the CEO to say in other interviews they do have longer bed lengths being tested.

Did Rivian Accidentally Leak An Extended Cab Version Of The R1T Truck? (insideevs.com)

This of course led to these images.

[balthazar]

So; no 8-ft bed or even 6.5-ft bed test mule pics. Same thing I found when searching.

'One has to wonder what's behind the claim that they're testing longer / long bed versions, and that it actually IS "easier" to stretch the chassis than it is for a IC vehicle... I mean; what do those making such claims have to GGAAIINNNNnnn n nnnn n nn ... .  .  . ..   . a-are they beholden to protecting -ahem- the stock price for investors?'

One wonders, one does. 

[surreal1272]

17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

So; no 8-ft bed or even 6.5-ft bed test mule pics. Same thing I found when searching.

'One has to wonder what's behind the claim that they're testing longer / long bed versions, and that it actually IS "easier" to stretch the chassis than it is for a IC vehicle... I mean; what do those making such claims have to GGAAIINNNNnnn n nnnn n nn ... .  .  . ..   . a-are they beholden to protecting -ahem- the stock price for investors?'

One wonders, one does. 

Good grief man. It's also not a FULL SIZE pick up. It is far closer to a Ranger size than an F-150. Now show me ONE current mid-size truck with an 8 ft bed. Then, you have a legitimate gripe.

34 minutes ago, David said:

As has been stated the same platform has been used for extended length Amazon Prime Delivery vans which proves they can easily build them longer no problem. Then on top of this, this story with leaked picture of a extended length truck got the CEO to say in other interviews they do have longer bed lengths being tested.

Did Rivian Accidentally Leak An Extended Cab Version Of The R1T Truck? (insideevs.com)

This of course led to these images.

Don't bother David. It doesn't need to have an 8 ft bed to begin with for the reasons I mentioned above. Just a dumb argument at this point IMO.

[balthazar]

David is the individual who claimed Rivian had "8-ft test mules out now", so I asked if there were any pics. 

You know; more information. 

I think the claim was erroneous- that's DOUBLE the length they have now.

Rivian (like I said) isn't aiming for contractors / commercial truck buyers- they don't need an 8-ft bed (again; t'wasn't I who said they were working on one). But at LEAST a 5.5' bed (keeping the crew cab) would be a lot more useful. 

- - - - -
Not sure why you say it's not full-size: 82" wide, 76" tall, 136" wheelbase (Silverado starts at 139"). Really only the tiny bed is what's lacking.

[Robert Hall]

Not even sure why Balthy even cares.  GM is still going to make diesel HD trucks for the foreseeable future, so his niche isn’t threatened by EVs.  

[balthazar]

Same reason you talk about anything other than Jeeps here. 

[ccap41]

...He also doesn't own an HD anymore...

[Robert Hall]

11 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

...He also doesn't own an HD anymore...

HD, regular, whatever. Still a full size. With less than an 8 foot bed? 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

David is the individual who claimed Rivian had "8-ft test mules out now", so I asked if there were any pics. 

You know; more information. 

I think the claim was erroneous- that's DOUBLE the length they have now.

Rivian (like I said) isn't aiming for contractors / commercial truck buyers- they don't need an 8-ft bed (again; t'wasn't I who said they were working on one). But at LEAST a 5.5' bed (keeping the crew cab) would be a lot more useful. 

- - - - -
Not sure why you say it's not full-size: 82" wide, 76" tall, 136" wheelbase (Silverado starts at 139"). Really only the tiny bed is what's lacking.

While I have not found the stories again, I do now that somewhere in the Rivian threads I had posted what was in the Bloomberg / WallStreet / CNN interviews where RJ the CEO said they are exploring alternative bed lengths to add down the road due to the flexible nature of their Skateboard platform. All one has to do is look at the Fleet section where you have your choice of 500 / 700 / 900 cubic feet vans on the same platform and see how much bigger they are and the fact that you can get them in FWD or AWD format for delivery services. AWD is focused on the Northern States where ice and snow make delivery more challenging. As such, I see them around Seattle all the time since this is the HQ market.

Even in the testing in California where they have been caught with an R1T which you can clearly see is much shorter than the Van. So, 6- and 8-foot trucks are possible, and I tend to believe since the photo slipped of the king cab or extended cab version, that they would also have other formats.

[smk4565]

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

If Im to be answering SMK's question about what General Motors SUV/CUV and pick up trucks are capable off roading vehicles, Id be saying that historically, General Motors hasnt really engineered segment busting off roading vehicles.  For the military, yes.  And currently they have a huge military contract to supply troop vehicles for the military that seem to have awesome off roading chops.  Colorado pick-up truck based. And they are working on a Silverado truck based model too.  And most radically speaking, these will also be battery electric.

But to return to the question, nothing in history that GM has made over the years that captures awards for off roading quite as often as a Jeep.  There were a handful over the years though. But currently nothing in the civilian market.

But does it matter that GM has no Wrangler or Bronco competitor?

 

It's not about what they built in the past, it is about what the market wants now.  The Wrangler outsells every GM vehicle except the Silverado and Sierra, if you add Gladiator and Wrangler together they outsell the Sierra.  The Bronco is off to a strong sales start, Toyota sold 129k units of an 11 year old SUV that they probably paid off the tooling for in 2015.  

GM needs a Blazer that fits the nameplate.  And they aren't alone, Nissan better get the Xterra back fast and I think Toyota could revive the FJ Cruiser with a removable roof or soft roof option.  And whether those are all gas, EV or both, whatever, but Nissan and GM especially are leaving money on the table right now, Toyota could probably get even more (no Land Cruiser here, only the Lexus version, no FJ, etc.)

[balthazar]

Wrangler is not competing for the same buyers as pickups, tho, is it.

[surreal1272]

20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It's not about what they built in the past, it is about what the market wants now.

Using your logic, I will ask you this. Why did your favorite brand put out their first real EV for the low demand sedan market? I mean, all this talk about what the market wants now but I have YET to see this level of criticism directed toward your favorite brand, who decided a sedan was the best idea for their first real EV.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Using your logic, I will ask you this. Why did your favorite brand put out their first real EV for the low demand sedan market? I mean, all this talk about what the market wants now but I have YET to see this level of criticism directed toward your favorite brand, who decided a sedan was the best idea for their first real EV.

They make 9 SUV's right now.  They have 2 electric SUVs coming over the next year and the EQE, so they'll have the same number of EV's on the market as Tesla.   They probably went EQS first due to the range and aerodynamics which makes sense and to get EQE out quickly after it due to how many parts are probably shared between the 2. 

[G. David Felt]

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They make 9 SUV's right now.  They have 2 electric SUVs coming over the next year and the EQE, so they'll have the same number of EV's on the market as Tesla.   They probably went EQS first due to the range and aerodynamics which makes sense and to get EQE out quickly after it due to how many parts are probably shared between the 2. 

Yet behind the American Big boys as with two EVs, they will catch up to Ford that has two out now.

In regard to Mercedes versus GM, by the end of this year, GM will have Bolt, BOLT EUV, Hummer EV Truck & SUV, Chevrolet Truck EV next year, Equinox EV also next year, Blazer EV end of 2023 and many more to come by 2025.

That shows Mercedes is very much behind and will have to play catch up after getting caught with their pants down on Dieselgate.

Catching up to Tesla, how about Mercedes catching up to Ford and GM. ?

[G. David Felt]

So via LinkedIn,  Walmart CEO has confirmed expanding in home grocery delivery creating 3,000 new roles and will use BrightDrop delivery vans to make this happen giving GM another big contract of EV vans.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dougmcmillon_walmart-to-expand-inhome-delivery-reaching-activity-6884590382848589824-VEOR

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

Yet behind the American Big boys as with two EVs, they will catch up to Ford that has two out now.

In regard to Mercedes versus GM, by the end of this year, GM will have Bolt, BOLT EUV, Hummer EV Truck & SUV, Chevrolet Truck EV next year, Equinox EV also next year, Blazer EV end of 2023 and many more to come by 2025.

That shows Mercedes is very much behind and will have to play catch up after getting caught with their pants down on Dieselgate.

Catching up to Tesla, how about Mercedes catching up to Ford and GM. ?

Mercedes will be fine.  Their EV's cost what their gasoline cars cost.  Chevy and Ford's EV's  (and Hyundai and VW) cost double what their gas cars cost.  GMC never sold a vehicle over $100k before, Cadillac tried the Allante, XLR, STS-V, CT6 and those all bombed because outside of the Escalade, no one is paying $100k adjusted for inflation for a Cadillac.  So I am not sure where all these buyers for $100k Cadillac and GMC's are going to come from.

 The Mustang Mach-E was the worst selling Ford SUV last year, the Mustang coupe had it's worst sales year in history and still outsold the Mach-E by almost double.  In December the Mach-E was the worse selling Ford outside of the GT which I think is out of production and the Fusion which for sure is out of production.  And simple reason for that, most of the car buying public isn't looking to spend $50-60k on a small Ford crossover.   Same reason the VW iD4 is a dud, and the Hyundai Ionic 5 will be a dud.  

[balthazar]

Blackwings are solidly over $100K and Cadillac will sell every one they make, no problem.
And GMC has been selling over $90K already, plus the Denali Ultimate is coming sometime this year (starts at $80K). You can push an Escalade up nearly$50K in options, so you know the Ultimate will go over $100K with ease. And if you don't think GMC buyers spend big money, then why are the AT4 & Denali like 70% of all Sierra sales?

[balthazar]

- - - - -

Mercedes' issues are considerable- they claim they are 'the best' yet they've been riding on their coattails for a while now. They're years behind in getting BEs out, those BEs aren't class leading and they don't seem to know how to get them there, and the design language is confused and chaotic (when it isn't simply bland & tired). They also killed off all the V8s across the board, including AMGs; cars that only existed to showcase V8s.

Vainly, they're going to try and sell 'AMG' BEs that are going to bring a slim fraction of a percent of the performance gain over non-AMG variants, compared to the gains the IC variants brought. AMG is done.

[G. David Felt]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes will be fine.  Their EV's cost what their gasoline cars cost.  Chevy and Ford's EV's  (and Hyundai and VW) cost double what their gas cars cost.  GMC never sold a vehicle over $100k before, Cadillac tried the Allante, XLR, STS-V, CT6 and those all bombed because outside of the Escalade, no one is paying $100k adjusted for inflation for a Cadillac.  So I am not sure where all these buyers for $100k Cadillac and GMC's are going to come from.

 The Mustang Mach-E was the worst selling Ford SUV last year, the Mustang coupe had it's worst sales year in history and still outsold the Mach-E by almost double.  In December the Mach-E was the worse selling Ford outside of the GT which I think is out of production and the Fusion which for sure is out of production.  And simple reason for that, most of the car buying public isn't looking to spend $50-60k on a small Ford crossover.   Same reason the VW iD4 is a dud, and the Hyundai Ionic 5 will be a dud.  

YOU ARE SO FULL OF BS!!!

GM has plenty of rides selling north of $100K and GMC is proving under the Denali to be one of their best profit margin lines of auto's.

Ford #'s for 2021 show more people are choosing Green Mach-e to quote their own press release of numbers:

December 2021 Press Release (ford.com)

Mach-e sold 27,140 for 2021 increase of 904,566.7%

Mustang sold 61,090 for 2021 decreased 14.2%

Meanwhile Mrecedes-Benz really is not increasing sales in the US, Van sales dropped 20+% in 2021 and EV sales for the US is a pathetic 443 EQS sold.

GLOBALLY, Sales are down 5%, to quote the MB press release on their BEV's:

Deliveries of Mercedes-Benz plug-in hybrid and electric passenger cars reached a record 227,458 units (+69.3%) of which 48,936 were Mercedes-EQ battery electric passenger cars (BEV) (+154.8%). Including smart and Mercedes-Benz Vans, total BEV sales rose above 99,000 units.

The bulk of this was China with Europe coming in second and still MB does not have anything for the masses in Europe.

[surreal1272]

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Their EV's cost what their gasoline cars cost.

And your proof of this is what exactly? The EQS? It has no gasoline equivalent. The closest thing to it is the S-Class and it sure as hell isn't that. The EQB? That will start, minimum $50K while the GLB starts at $38K. Why are you lying?

[surreal1272]

20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

They have 2 electric SUVs coming

There's the part I was looking for. It's "coming" but not before they released a low demand ugly ass sedan. Again, your criticism of MB does not equal the criticism you have bestowed upon literally everyone else.

 

And congrats. That EQB will have a whole 26 miles more range as the equally paltry ranged Jaguar E-Pace. The "best or nothing" right?

Edited January 9, 2022 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Mustang Mach-E was the worst selling Ford SUV last year

Yet they sold every single one that they made. Guess that fact never occurred to you. And their worst selling SUV still sold more than anything out of Germany, mainly because the biggest player doesn’t even have an EV SUV yet. 

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

no one is paying $100k adjusted for inflation for a Cadillac

Again, BS. Despite the struggles of their sedan sales overall, they sold every V series and Blackwing model produced so you are lying about that too. 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Yet they sold every single one that they made. Guess that fact never occurred to you. And their worst selling SUV still sold more than anything out of Germany, mainly because the biggest player doesn’t even have an EV SUV yet. 

Again, BS. Despite the struggles of their sedan sales overall, they sold every V series and Blackwing model produced so you are lying about that too. 

Every car company sells every car they make.  Tesla sold 190,000 Model Y's in the USA in 2021, Mach-E 27,000.  And the current wait for a Model Y is 7 months, yet people are still waiting for it, rather than buying a Ford or VW iD4.  So when the gas cars are gone, I don't see how Ford competes with Tesla.

Blackwing was really low volume, like in the hundreds, CT4 was down 48% in Q4 (although up for the year,  not sure if it had a full sales year in 2020) and CT5 was down 65% on Q4. Shouldn't Blackwing be elevating those cars and getting more people to buy them?   And where are the V-series SUVs?  

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla sold 190,000 Model Y's in the USA in 2021,

Is that Model Y & Model 3 combined? I see thru Oct the Model Y was only at 105K - I seriously doubt they moved another 85K in just 2 months.

 

21 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I am not sure where all these buyers for $100k Cadillac and GMC's are going to come from.

 Like you said; GM will sell every one they build.

Edited January 10, 2022 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Every car company sells every car they make.  Tesla sold 190,000 Model Y's in the USA in 2021, Mach-E 27,000.  And the current wait for a Model Y is 7 months, yet people are still waiting for it, rather than buying a Ford or VW iD4.  So when the gas cars are gone, I don't see how Ford competes with Tesla.

Blackwing was really low volume, like in the hundreds, CT4 was down 48% in Q4 (although up for the year,  not sure if it had a full sales year in 2020) and CT5 was down 65% on Q4. Shouldn't Blackwing be elevating those cars and getting more people to buy them?   And where are the V-series SUVs?  

FFS. Where do you come up with this BS? Low volume? High volume? Who cares? You said they couldn’t sell $100K cars and I gave you just two that did. Besides, you never use that “low volume” excuse when folks bring your precious G-Wagen. Sorry but I’m done pandering to your endless bar moving. You said GM couldn’t and I and others showed you that they did and will continue to do so, end of story. 

[smk4565]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Is that Model Y & Model 3 combined? I see thru Oct the Model Y was only at 105K - I seriously doubt they moved another 85K in just 2 months.

 

 Like you said; GM will sell every one they build.

Car and Driver has an estimate of 172,000 Model Y sold, Forbes best selling car lists estimates Model Y at 190,000 since Tesla doesn't give exact numbers.  Either way it is the best selling EV, and it dwarfs 27,000 Mach-E and 17,000 iD4, which are both a lot cheaper than a Model Y.  And I expect it will be the same story with the Ionic 5 and Kia EV6 next year, those are too expensive to do any significant volume, $50k for a  Hyundai/Kia hatchback, I don't think so.  

Only way these mainstream brands to compete is get their price down, if Chevy really delivers on a $30k Equinox that could be game changing.   But that would be half the price of a Model Y, that seems like it would be hard to do.  But if they can, they can capture the consumer base that can't afford a Tesla, which is what main stream car companies should be trying to do, rather than go head to head with Tesla. 

[balthazar]

Sounds like they estimated too high.
 

[ccap41]

5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

23 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Mustang Mach-E was the worst selling Ford SUV last year

Yet they sold every single one that they made. Guess that fact never occurred to you. And their worst selling SUV still sold more than anything out of Germany, mainly because the biggest player doesn’t even have an EV SUV yet.

Kind of like the G Wagen.. Sells like crap so it's the worst, right? *eyeroll*