Cadillac News: What is Your IQ on Cadillac Electric Vehicles?

[G. David Felt]

GM's Cadillac division is to be their first all-electric division for the GM company and with that, Cadillac introduced and has since started pre-orders for the Cadillac LYRIQ.

Cadillac has since in press releases stated a new refined level of luxury will be brought to the all-electric Cadillac product line. This will start with Heritage marks on the electric auto's such as their vertical tail lights.

Cadillac has also stated that an Escalade electric SUV was forthcoming and many myself included wondered if they would hold onto the Escalade name or use something new? We now have that in a flurry of trademark filings by GM for the Cadillac division. This would indicate that the IQ is that defining mark on an electric vehicle as all the names end in IQ or have IQ in the name. This product lineup is to be built on variations of the Ultium battery pack / Powertrain.

Cadillac's Electric Auto Lineup based on Trademark filings:

• LYRIQ
• Escalade IQ
• Escalade IQL
• OPTIQ
• CELESTIQ
• SYMBOLIQ

This is by some a welcome return to names that were and still are considered very American in comparison to those past executives that pushed a German agenda on the brand with letters and numbers where only the Escalade name plate survived.

This brings up the big question to everyone reading this: What do you think of the new names, and on what type of electric vehicle do you think these will get applied? 

Keep in mind that GM has shifted to pretty much a CUV/SUV and Full-size truck lineup, yet on the roadmap of EVs there still seems to be a few cars listed as well.

Sound off by posting your thoughts on the IQ names, and where you feel these names will be applied. CUV, SUV, Truck, or Car?

Cadillac Pressroom - United States - LYRIQ

Cadillac iq trademark search

Escalade iq trademark search

Escalade iq trademark

Escalade iql trademark

Optiq trademark

Celestiq trademark

Symboliq trademark

Ascendiq trademark

Lumistiq trademark

Vistiq trademark

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[riviera74]

Bad spelling does make a defensible trademark.  As for the names, I am not a fan but I am not hostile to those new names.  I am glad that Cadillac is using names and NOT alphanumeric designations for their new EVs.

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Bad spelling does make a defensible trademark.  As for the names, I am not a fan but I am not hostile to those new names.  I am glad that Cadillac is using names and NOT alphanumeric designations for their new EVs.

I didnt know how to react to these names.  But I think your view on them best suits my feelings. 

Yes. I too am not a fan of these names.  Its a source for comedic fodder.  But seeing that these are some sort of a name  and not  alphanumerics,, its impossible for me to be hostile towards them. 

Yeah, I will chuckle at the thought of a CelestIQ or even at an Escalade IQ though. 

[Robert Hall]

Sounds ok, as long as they don’t name something ‘Generiq’.  

Edited December 7, 2021 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, David said:

• LYRIQ
• Escalade IQ
• Escalade IQL
• OPTIQ
• CELESTIQ
• SYMBOLIQ

I could not like this less. I cannot stand this miss-spelling-of-words for names thing. 

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Sounds ok, as long as they don’t name something ‘Generiq’.  

Feeling our age?   

Welcome to the group!  

51 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I could not like this less. I cannot stand this miss-spelling-of-words for names thing. 

I can respect this as I also upon coming across this in the Trademark section for what Cadillac has been up to this November made me initially say WTF. But as others have pointed out, I am far happier that they are some sort of misspelled name than alpha numeric follow the German clone's crap.

I do think that Optiq and Symoliq will follow Lyriq as some sort of cuv/suv and that I can see a Celestiq as a car.

I get and am happy they are not throwing away the built-up recognition of Escalade.

Let's be glad they did not decide to go with Escalaiq or ESCALAIQ for the EV version.

[ccap41]

12 minutes ago, David said:

Feeling our age?   

Welcome to the group!  

I can respect this as I also upon coming across this in the Trademark section for what Cadillac has been up to this November made me initially say WTF. But as others have pointed out, I am far happier that they are some sort of misspelled name than alpha numeric follow the German clone's crap.

I do think that Optiq and Symoliq will follow Lyriq as some sort of cuv/suv and that I can see a Celestiq as a car.

I get and am happy they are not throwing away the built-up recognition of Escalade.

Let's be glad they did not decide to go with Escalaiq or ESCALAIQ for the EV version.

I can certainly agree that I am glad they're using "words" instead of alphanumeric junk but they could have used...real words... 

I don't know why Lyric, Optic, or Symbolic wasn't used. Why not "IC"?

[Robert Hall]

44 minutes ago, David said:

Feeling our age?   

Welcome to the group!  

 

'Generiq' as in 'generic'.   Not 'Geriatriq' if that is what you are implying...

Edited December 7, 2021 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

36 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I can certainly agree that I am glad they're using "words" instead of alphanumeric junk but they could have used...real words... 

I don't know why Lyric, Optic, or Symbolic wasn't used. Why not "IC"?

My gut tells me that the IC is due to these words already being trademarked by other companies. I did look at both Lyric and Optic and they are trademarked by other companies, I have to assume the same with other words.

I also am thinking that someone in Marketing feels there is value in IQ for people shopping since it does relate to intelligence.

Thoughts?

33 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

'Generiq' as in 'generic'.   Not 'Geriatriq' if that is what you are implying...

My Hip is really bothering me this morning as we have a winter storm here, so I am feeling my 54 years of age.  

Course not gonna stop me from skiing and I know I will feel better for being more physical.

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, David said:

My gut tells me that the IC is due to these words already being trademarked by other companies. I did look at both Lyric and Optic and they are trademarked by other companies, I have to assume the same with other words.

I also am thinking that someone in Marketing feels there is value in IQ for people shopping since it does relate to intelligence.

Thoughts?

My Hip is really bothering me this morning as we have a winter storm here, so I am feeling my 54 years of age.  

Course not gonna stop me from skiing and I know I will feel better for being more physical.

'IC' can also imply Internal Combustion like in ICE, not the image they want for EVs... 'IQ' sounds OK....definitely better than '-E' on everything...I could have seen them having XT3-E, XT5-E, CT4-E, CT6-E, Escalade-E, etc...

Ya, damp weather and cold here, feeling my 51 years of age...joint pain w/ the stairs (after living most of my adult life without stairs it's been a challenge getting used to them the last few years), etc...

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, David said:

My gut tells me that the IC is due to these words already being trademarked by other companies. I did look at both Lyric and Optic and they are trademarked by other companies, I have to assume the same with other words.

I also am thinking that someone in Marketing feels there is value in IQ for people shopping since it does relate to intelligence.

Thoughts?

Thank you, the trademark situation make sense but the IQ for intelligence is stupid, IMO. 

[smk4565]

BMW has "i" and Mercedes has EQ, so obviously Cadillac would just follow in their footsteps with "IQ"

Personally I hate all these EV names and putting "I" or "E" on everything, everyone does the same thing and it is pretty pointless, just name the car.  

Scion already made the IQ, and it sucked.

It doesn't really matter though, Cadillac will have an all new naming scheme in 2027 anyway.

 

[balthazar]

Except @ BMW, 'i' means 'injected', not 'electric'.

OEMs should have done what they've generally / traditionally done; build a model with either an IC option, or a BE option in the same body. 

Now mercedes has a parallel s-class competing in the same showrooms with the traditional IC s-class.

[smk4565]

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Except @ BMW, 'i' means 'injected', not 'electric'.

OEMs should have done what they've generally / traditionally done; build a model with either an IC option, or a BE option in the same body. 

Now mercedes has a parallel s-class competing in the same showrooms with the traditional IC s-class.

BMW i3, i8, and the coming iX and i5, and i7.  In those cases the i is for electric cars.  on a 328i, yes it means injected.

For the short term you have to build ICE and EV side by side.  Everyone is doing it, which is what will really stretch these OEM's and probably kill the small ones off that don't have enough resources.  Or the ones that go too early will burn up cash too fast, the ones that go too late will be left behind.

[balthazar]

So... it's an injected electric??

[riviera74]

Interesting.  I saw a BMW 530e a few days back.  I did not hear it coming or going.  You know, E as in electric. As if that Bimmer was a Tesla.

[Robert Hall]

There is a plug-in hybrid 5 series.  In the 80s they used the e suffix on the 525e and 528e for ‘economy’.  Those were known for bad engines. 

[regfootball]

no real issue with the 'IQ' naming.  bigger issue is abandoning gas vehicles / not putting any more development into updating current products.

CT5 - weak base engine, can't find hardly any v6's

XT5 - needs to be refreshed inside in the worst way, if not all new.

XT6 - was a stopgap, hows the replacement coming?

CT6 - i know they killed it, still worth considering a real Escala clone that is CT6 sized and has a liftback

XT4 - better interior pls

CT4 and CT5 will those ever get updated in the next 5 years, probably not

Like it or not to sustain brand health, they will still need to refresh the gas vehicle inventory for several years yet.

Edited December 15, 2021 by regfootball

[riviera74]

Cadillac certainly NEEDS to replace their current XT vehicles ASAP.  The cars can stay as is for another couple of years since it seems everybody wants to buy a crossover instead of a sedan these days.

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, regfootball said:

CT5 - weak base engine, can't find hardly any v6's

I saw a white 2.0T 330 (or was it 350?) with AWD  CT5 today.

I thought the only CT5 Id like looking at was a CT5-V Blackwing.  But this particular white CT5 2.0T surprised me in how good looking I found it.  I have warmed over on the base CT5, I guess.    Obviously the one that Id want would be the V Blackwing. 

I could live with the 2.0T if I had no better car to replace my Acura with if I needed to replace my Acura   (Just thinking out loud) 

[G. David Felt]

Here I posted about the IQ names for Cadillacs future BEVs and only now is other web sites months later starting to talk about it and ask if you like it or not. Too Funny!

Poll: Are You A Fan Of Cadillac's New IQ Naming Strategy? (cadillacsociety.com)

The survey does show as of my posting that only 38% LOVE the IQ names, and 62% HATE it.

[balthazar]

Can you image a culture/time period where someone names a model 'Fleetwood' and that name runs from 1935 thru 1996?? Or Deville... and it runs from 1949 thru 2005??

- - - - - 
Seems logical that a 'Cadillac Owners Society' would find new, non-traditional names unappealing... but Cadillac is looking outside it's own steady demographic here.  

Not that I like the future naming convention either...

[Robert Hall]

I miss the traditional Cadillac names...alphanumerics are so boring, and the new 'iq' names are contrived.

At least Chevy has a core set of names they have kept around for a long time and when they add new names, they usually are word names (though many are contrived).  

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

Seems like electric/redesigned models are a prime opportunity to re-intro heritage names. 

I'm OK with Celestiq & Lyriq... generally, but all the rest and the 'mandate' to name everything in the same vein I often hate.  I would rather Celestiq be 'Fleetwood' tho.

[G. David Felt]

39 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Seems like electric/redesigned models are a prime opportunity to re-intro heritage names. 

I'm OK with Celestiq & Lyriq... generally, but all the rest and the 'mandate' to name everything in the same vein I often hate.  I would rather Celestiq be 'Fleetwood' tho.

Agree and why not like the SilvErado just do that to one of the E's in EscaladE or EscaladE ESV. I see no reason to have IQ on the name.

[balthazar]

Because blue 'E's are JUST as unappealing as an 'xxxiq' name.

[Drew Dowdell]

On 12/13/2021 at 7:16 PM, oldshurst442 said:

I saw a white 2.0T 330 (or was it 350?) with AWD  CT5 today.

I thought the only CT5 Id like looking at was a CT5-V Blackwing.  But this particular white CT5 2.0T surprised me in how good looking I found it.  I have warmed over on the base CT5, I guess.    Obviously the one that Id want would be the V Blackwing. 

I could live with the 2.0T if I had no better car to replace my Acura with if I needed to replace my Acura   (Just thinking out loud) 

It's 350.  The naming scheme always rounds to the nearest 50.

The 2.0T is weak really only on paper and even then not by much.  Most people will find it acceptable because it has strong torque across the powerband. Since they are running it through 9 or 10 speed automatics depending on application, it feels strong in daily driving.  You'd notice no difference between it and the Germans in normal driving. The BMW has 13 more horsepower, but the Cadillac has 1 or 2 more gears. The BMW and Cadillac 2.0T have the same peak torque and the BMW get there just 50 rpm sooner... nothing you'd ever be able to notice. The Benz 2.0T has 20 more horsepower and 20 more lb-ft of torque, but the Benz 9-speed automatic doesn't use first gear for efficiency purposes, so it is effectively an 8-speed. 

So... unless you're drag racing an XT5 v. a GLC v. an X3, you'll never notice any difference between the three. I didn't include Audi because at 201 horsepower @ 6,000 rpm and 22 fewer lb-feet it's the Audi 2.0Twith a 7-speed that takes the cake for weakest engine.  

Cadillac 2.0T - 235HP @ 5,000 RPM / 258 lb-ft @ 1,500 - 4,000 rpm
BMW 2.0T - 248 HP @ 5,200 - 6,500 RPM / 258 lb-ft @ 1,450 - 4,800 rpm
MB 2.0T - 255 HP @ 5800 - 6,100 rpm / 273 @ 1,800 - 4,000 rpm
Audi 2.0T - 201 HP @ 6,000 rpm / 236 lb-ft @ not published on their site RPM

Acura is the most powerful 2.0T at 272 @ 6500 rpm / 280 @ 1,600 - 4,500 rpm

Genesis cheats by using a 2.5T that pushes it to 300 hp / 311 lb-ft  (and the best available interior of ANY of them... hands down.. no contest)

Infiniti I'm not going to bother looking up because really... who cares?

 

[Drew Dowdell]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's 350.  The naming scheme always rounds to the nearest 50.

The 2.0T is weak really only on paper and even then not by much.  Most people will find it acceptable because it has strong torque across the powerband. Since they are running it through 9 or 10 speed automatics depending on application, it feels strong in daily driving.  You'd notice no difference between it and the Germans in normal driving. The BMW has 13 more horsepower, but the Cadillac has 1 or 2 more gears. The BMW and Cadillac 2.0T have the same peak torque and the BMW get there just 50 rpm sooner... nothing you'd ever be able to notice. The Benz 2.0T has 20 more horsepower and 20 more lb-ft of torque, but the Benz 9-speed automatic doesn't use first gear for efficiency purposes, so it is effectively an 8-speed. 

So... unless you're drag racing an XT5 v. a GLC v. an X3, you'll never notice any difference between the three. I didn't include Audi because at 201 horsepower @ 6,000 rpm and 22 fewer lb-feet it's the Audi 2.0Twith a 7-speed that takes the cake for weakest engine.  

Cadillac 2.0T - 235HP @ 5,000 RPM / 258 lb-ft @ 1,500 - 4,000 rpm
BMW 2.0T - 248 HP @ 5,200 - 6,500 RPM / 258 lb-ft @ 1,450 - 4,800 rpm
MB 2.0T - 255 HP @ 5800 - 6,100 rpm / 273 @ 1,800 - 4,000 rpm
Audi 2.0T - 201 HP @ 6,000 rpm / 236 lb-ft @ not published on their site RPM

Acura is the most powerful 2.0T at 272 @ 6500 rpm / 280 @ 1,600 - 4,500 rpm

Genesis cheats by using a 2.5T that pushes it to 300 hp / 311 lb-ft  (and the best available interior of ANY of them... hands down.. no contest)

Infiniti I'm not going to bother looking up because really... who cares?

 

And the Lincoln 2.0T is 250 / 280 

[Drew Dowdell]

There’s something deceptive / off / Marketing Department about all of these numbers. I’m going to do a bit more digging tomorrow. 

[oldshurst442]

I am in nooooo hurry to change my car (or my wife's) anytime soon.

1. Craaaaazy prices of new (and used) cars are through the roof.  

2. Not one car, ICE or BE, interests me in 2022 enough for me to forego my car. 

 

The CT5 Cadillac and the new Acura TLX are intriguing.  But nothing about them makes me lust after them.   OK...the CT5 in Blackwing V is lust worthy to me.   But not for where I reside.  Gasoline prices is pretty high right about now.   Approx. CDN $1.55/liter for 89 octane and $1.65/liter for 93 octane. Thats like 6.5 CDN dollars per gallon...     I gather the supercharged LT4 slurps the good stuff. 

With gasoline prices that high, EVs are looking that much better for me...   But unfortunately, nothing in the EV world is jumping at me either.    The Lucid Air seems like it fits my needs and tastes as much as a CT5 Cadillac and TLX does, but the pricing of that car, in any trim, is just a tad tooooo much for my liking.   I wouldnt buy a CT5 V Blackwing either BECAUSE of the price tag.  

The Mustang Mach E is nice as well, and its in my budget, its a CUV...    Im not one for CUVs.  

The Tesla Model S remains a car that I like.  Aside from the price tag being too high like the others mentioned, I dont want to be giving my  money to Elon Musk.  Over the last few years, Ive grown to despise the man. 

Its still a waiting game for EVs for me at this time.   Im not counting out ICE ownership yet though.  But on both accounts, nothing interests me for me to spend money needlessly.  Both the Ford and the Acura serve me and my wife reliably well.  

[Drew Dowdell]

9 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I am in nooooo hurry to change my car (or my wife's) anytime soon.

1. Craaaaazy prices of new (and used) cars are through the roof.  

2. Not one car, ICE or BE, interests me in 2022 enough for me to forego my car. 

 

The CT5 Cadillac and the new Acura TLX are intriguing.  But nothing about them makes me lust after them.   OK...the CT5 in Blackwing V is lust worthy to me.   But not for where I reside.  Gasoline prices is pretty high right about now.   Approx. CDN $1.55/liter for 89 octane and $1.65/liter for 93 octane. Thats like 6.5 CDN dollars per gallon...     I gather the supercharged LT4 slurps the good stuff. 

With gasoline prices that high, EVs are looking that much better for me...   But unfortunately, nothing in the EV world is jumping at me either.    The Lucid Air seems like it fits my needs and tastes as much as a CT5 Cadillac and TLX does, but the pricing of that car, in any trim, is just a tad tooooo much for my liking.   I wouldnt buy a CT5 V Blackwing either BECAUSE of the price tag.  

The Mustang Mach E is nice as well, and its in my budget, its a CUV...    Im not one for CUVs.  

The Tesla Model S remains a car that I like.  Aside from the price tag being too high like the others mentioned, I dont want to be giving my  money to Elon Musk.  Over the last few years, Ive grown to despise the man. 

Its still a waiting game for EVs for me at this time.   Im not counting out ICE ownership yet though.  But on both accounts, nothing interests me for me to spend money needlessly.  Both the Ford and the Acura serve me and my wife reliably well.  

You sound very much like me. Not wanting a Tesla and waiting until the right one comes along. And then the EValanche debuted and it wasn’t even a question anymore.  I was saying in another thread  that I think that’s the case for a lot of people who like the idea of an EV but haven’t bought one yet because they don’t like what’s offered.

 The other one I’m keeping my eye on is the Fisker Ocean for Albert. He wants to go back to a CRV sized crossover and it looks like it fits the bill nicely. I just need a bit more detail about options before I reserve it.

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

that I think that’s the case for a lot of people who like the idea of an EV but haven’t bought one yet because they don’t like what’s offered.

Totally! 

I see the way EVs are created with their funky LED  lighting outside of the vehicle and inside, all the shiny gadgets and creative tech and THAT alone makes people want them as their ICE counterparts are not as glitzy. ALL (or most) of the R&D money goes into EVs nowadays so OEMs are getting crafty in making EVs.  To the average joe, this is what peaks his interest.  And the non-stop message of EVs are mostly maintenance free and that is enough for people to convert.

On the other hand, non-stop messaging of charging times and where to charge and the absence of a variety of EV models to choose from from price to style, keeps EV sales at bay.    

To the average joe, motive power seems irrelevant.  I gather, whatever is more cheaper to run and what is more convenient to own will win the hearts of the average joe.  EVs havent attained that level yet to silence the misinformation that is out there against EVs. 

+1 on the Fisker.   

When the North American EV market will be flooded with EVs of this price range and style, from ALL the OEMs, will we see a great switch to EVs.  

The Mach E is a sporty CUV, great for the 'look at me' crowd.   Its not a mass market appealing vehicle.  The average joe doesnt want that kind of attention.   This is why Toyotas sell by the ton.  

Im holding out from getting a CUV for myself as long as I could hold out.  But I have a feeling that conventional  sedans are not quite dead yet...   They are concerning the IC.  But I have a feeling that there will be some EV sedans to choose from.  

The Taycan and its Audi cousin GT E-Tron turns a lot heads.  Mine included when NOT painted in Trans Am bandit colours.  LOL    The Lucid Air.   Mercedes with their ugly EQS has garnered interest.  Cadillac Celestiq.  Sure, these are all expensive sedans, but sedans are still wanted by the buying public and OEMs are recognizing this and are still giving us sedans to drool over... 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

I visually like the Mach-E but I don’t like how it rides and the interior is way too spartan 

[Cory Wolfe]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Totally! 

I see the way EVs are created with their funky LED  lighting outside of the vehicle and inside, all the shiny gadgets and creative tech and THAT alone makes people want them as their ICE counterparts are not as glitzy. ALL (or most) of the R&D money goes into EVs nowadays so OEMs are getting crafty in making EVs.  To the average joe, this is what peaks his interest.  And the non-stop message of EVs are mostly maintenance free and that is enough for people to convert.

On the other hand, non-stop messaging of charging times and where to charge and the absence of a variety of EV models to choose from from price to style, keeps EV sales at bay.    

To the average joe, motive power seems irrelevant.  I gather, whatever is more cheaper to run and what is more convenient to own will win the hearts of the average joe.  EVs havent attained that level yet to silence the misinformation that is out there against EVs. 

+1 on the Fisker.   

When the North American EV market will be flooded with EVs of this price range and style, from ALL the OEMs, will we see a great switch to EVs.  

The Mach E is a sporty CUV, great for the 'look at me' crowd.   Its not a mass market appealing vehicle.  The average joe doesnt want that kind of attention.   This is why Toyotas sell by the ton.  

Im holding out from getting a CUV for myself as long as I could hold out.  But I have a feeling that conventional  sedans are not quite dead yet...   They are concerning the IC.  But I have a feeling that there will be some EV sedans to choose from.  

The Taycan and its Audi cousin GT E-Tron turns a lot heads.  Mine included when NOT painted in Trans Am bandit colours.  LOL    The Lucid Air.   Mercedes with their ugly EQS has garnered interest.  Cadillac Celestiq.  Sure, these are all expensive sedans, but sedans are still wanted by the buying public and OEMs are recognizing this and are still giving us sedans to drool over... 

 

It feels strange to say this, but compared to the majority of the latest EV reveals, Teslas seem...almost normal. The Model 3, while seemingly unorthodox when it was revealed, is now the Camry/Corolla of the EV spectrum today—in more ways than one. 

Now, if only something could be done about Elon...

Of all the EVs from mainstream manufacturers, the Hyundai Ioniq grabs my attention. They really nailed it with that one. 

[oldshurst442]

Teslas seem normal because they are still the benchmark.  All other EVs are judged by what Tesla EVs do.  Consumers want and expect Tesla levels of EV tech.   I know I do.   

Not necessarily the speed performance of Tesla vehicles.  Although as a car crazy person, I am amazed by that.  But mostly by their battery, motor and software tech performance.  

The Model 3 gained that because its relatively inexpensive.  Its battery range is still the one to beat. Its interior is minimalistic and adheres to the idea that its an average joe type of car and not for the elite.   And like a true American "muscle car", the Model 3 has speed performance that beat exotic cars that average joes could afford and buy.  

About Musk...the board of directors could oust him. But why would they at the moment?   As much of a loon he appears to be, Tesla sales keep rising and quash their rivals DESPITE Musk... 

Yes, the Ioniq 5 has done the EV mainstream CUV right!   It appears to have Tesla levels of range, battery and software performance.  No need to be a speed demon and therefore it gets the family hauling duties right.   Unlike say the Mach E.  But the Mach E is a Mustang and therefore it NEEDS to be a speed demon.

But the Ioniq 5 is too expensive to be a mainstream family hauling EV.  

 

 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I visually like the Mach-E but I don’t like how it rides and the interior is way too spartan 

I havent taken a ride in one.  And all the reviews all say in handles well.  

Could I safely say it rides harsh because its tuned to be sporty to handle? 

About the interior. Ive seen one up close, its what @Cory Wolfe eluded to with the Model 3 as being the norm.  Its 'minimalistic'.  And Ford decided to follow in Tesla's footsteps.    I dont mind. As long as I have my information in front of me and not on the screen by the right of me.  I guess you can get used to it,  but I dont feel like I want to.   All other glitzy EV interior tech I could live with, or live without... It dont bother me as much with or without it.  

[Cory Wolfe]

18 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

About Musk...the board of directors could oust him. But why would they at the moment?   As much of a loon he appears to be, Tesla sales keep rising and quash their rivals DESPITE Musk... 

True, he's certainly made Tesla what it is today, but I simply feel like he's trending higher on the crazy scale lately. His comments and actions seem to be more of a hinderance to Tesla. His latest earnings call and this move towards robotics give me doubt. Meanwhile, despite shocking the industry early on with the Cybertruck, Tesla will likely be beaten to market by nearly every EV truck introduced afterwards. Musk is a man of many broken promises and misguided priorities. 

Quote

Yes, the Ioniq 5 has done the EV mainstream CUV right!   It appears to have Tesla levels of range, battery and software performance.  No need to be a speed demon and therefore it gets the family hauling duties right.   Unlike say the Mach E.  But the Mach E is a Mustang and therefore it NEEDS to be a speed demon.

But the Ioniq 5 is too expensive to be a mainstream family hauling EV. 

Whoever can get the first sub-$30k EV that's not a penalty box to market will likely make the biggest mark. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

I havent taken a ride in one.  And all the reviews all say in handles well.  

Could I safely say it rides harsh because its tuned to be sporty to handle? 

About the interior. Ive seen one up close, its what @Cory Wolfe eluded to with the Model 3 as being the norm.  Its 'minimalistic'.  And Ford decided to follow in Tesla's footsteps.    I dont mind. As long as I have my information in front of me and not on the screen by the right of me.  I guess you can get used to it,  but I dont feel like I want to.   All other glitzy EV interior tech I could live with, or live without... It dont bother me as much with or without it.  

“Rides” and “Handles” are two different things and usually (though less so recently) opposite ends of the spectrum.

I don’t like harsh rides. The roads here are beyond awful. I’ll take a comfortable ride over sporty handling every day and twice on Sundays. It’s why I buy the vehicles I buy. My EValanche will have air suspension just  like my Avalanche does. I’d love an airmatic Benz but unless something changed recently they don’t make them in AWD.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, Cory Wolfe said:

True, he's certainly made Tesla what it is today, but I simply feel like he's trending higher on the crazy scale lately. His comments and actions seem to be more of a hinderance to Tesla. His latest earnings call and this move towards robotics give me doubt. Meanwhile, despite shocking the industry early on with the Cybertruck, Tesla will likely be beaten to market by nearly every EV truck introduced afterwards. Musk is a man of many broken promises and misguided priorities. 

Whoever can get the first sub-$30k EV that's not a penalty box to market will likely make the biggest mark. 

I agree Tesla is being led by a failed leader. Good for his look at me Marketing stunts early on, but Tesla needs a Real CEO that can raise the bar on Quality and deliver on promises. Way too many distractions for Tesla, Robotics, Solar roofs, Solar storage systems, Rockets, Mars, underground tunnels, flame throwers, etc. etc. etc.

Now we have the following stories of how bad Tesla quality is:

Over 10 Percent of Tesla Model S EVs Fail Germany’s Strict Inspection After 3 Years (thedrive.com)

Over 10 Percent of Tesla Model S EVs Fail Germany’s Strict Inspection After 3 Years - News07trends (universalpersonality.com)

https://autobala.com/more-than-10-of-tesla-model-sevs-did-not-pass-rigorous-german-inspection-after-3-years/315059/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30126171

https://www.realmicentral.com/2022/01/29/tesla-is-not-acclimatized-10-of-three-year-old-model-s-fail-german-quality-inspection/

Seems that Tesla is at the bottom of the required inspections at 3yrs old. Not a good thing to be especially when your opening a manufacturing plant there.

Then you have the Kia Niro EV rated at the most reliable EV on the road right now.

Consumer Reports Reliability Study: Top 10 Has Japanese Brands, Mini, Buick - Forbes Wheels

Then you have them giving the Hyundai Ioniq EV best buy as a $30,000 auto.

Best Hybrid/EV Buying Guide - Consumer Reports

Kia Niro And Tesla Model 3: The Best Rated Electric Cars For This 2022 » BuzzFeeds

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

“Rides” and “Handles” are two different things and usually (though less so recently) opposite ends of the spectrum.

I don’t like harsh rides. The roads here are beyond awful. I’ll take a comfortable ride over sporty handling every day and twice on Sundays. It’s why I buy the vehicles I buy. My EValanche will have air suspension just  like my Avalanche does. I’d love an airmatic Benz but unless something changed recently they don’t make them in AWD.

Magneride allows for both and for both to be comfortable. 

I understand that "rides" and "handles" are two different things and usually ARE on opposite ends of the spectrum.  That is why I asked.  Handling great is usually allowed by stiffer suspension tuning. But on the road, real roads, that means that all the imperfections are felt.  The one area where Montreal excels over ANY other North American city, including Detroit, is crappy, pot holed roadways.  Our pot holes are literal craters.  And we are just a few weeks away from pot hole season.  It starts in mid March.  

Seeing that the Mach E is a sport CUV, and everybody is praising it for its great on-road prowess, I assume its because its tuned to handle rather than soak up the bumps, and thus stiff suspension, and seeing that only the GT Mach E has magnetic suspension, it be not quite the comfy ride.  

Im not quite intolerant of sporty suspension set-ups.  Im getting there though slowly enough.   

[G. David Felt]

Seems for those that might be interested, you can still get the Cadillac V8 Blackwing motor for a paltry sum of $21,666.67 till they are gone.

550 HP / 627 lb-ft of torque

You Can Still Buy a Twin-Turbo Cadillac Blackwing V8 Engine From GM… For Now (thedrive.com)

Seems they made an extra run of motors to cover warranty issues with this motor for the CT6 V Blackwing and they have not been needed so Cadillac is selling them off till gone. Hand Built Blackwing motors from Kentucky. Will need a pallet jack as the motor weights 518 lbs dry.

Interesting is that I found the web page and GM has discounted the Motor, so now it is $19,500.00 Plus $3,500 core charge.

GM Genuine Parts 4.2L Gasoline Engine #12662913 | GM Genuine Parts 4.2L Gasoline Engine #12662913 | Parts (cadillac.com)

 Better hurry, at that discounted price, they should fly out the door.  

[Drew Dowdell]

7 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Magneride allows for both and for both to be comfortable. 

I understand that "rides" and "handles" are two different things and usually ARE on opposite ends of the spectrum.  That is why I asked.  Handling great is usually allowed by stiffer suspension tuning. But on the road, real roads, that means that all the imperfections are felt.  The one area where Montreal excels over ANY other North American city, including Detroit, is crappy, pot holed roadways.  Our pot holes are literal craters.  And we are just a few weeks away from pot hole season.  It starts in mid March.  

Seeing that the Mach E is a sport CUV, and everybody is praising it for its great on-road prowess, I assume its because its tuned to handle rather than soak up the bumps, and thus stiff suspension, and seeing that only the GT Mach E has magnetic suspension, it be not quite the comfy ride.  

Im not quite intolerant of sporty suspension set-ups.  Im getting there though slowly enough.   

Unfortunately, neither of the suspensions are tolerable to me.

[G. David Felt]

14 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Unfortunately, neither of the suspensions are tolerable to me.

So does the GT Mach E Magnetic Suspension not absorb the road bumps like the Cadillac Magna ride does?

[Drew Dowdell]

So I made up this chart that I think demonstrates how little difference there is between the 2.0T engines in this class. Peak horsepower on most of these is over 5,000 RPM and the Acura is at 6,500 RPM.  I want you to think about how often in your daily life that you exceed 5,000 rpm while you look at these charts.  What you'll end up noticing is that in the RPM of typical daily driving, 1500 - 4000, there is virtually no difference with the largest spread being 17 horsepower... nothing noticeable at all.  Furthermore, these figures are only calculated at wide-open-throttle. At partial throttle, the numbers will be significantly lower.  The Mercedes and Acura have very deep first gears, but they are only ever used when sport mode is engaged. It gives them significant pulling power in that mode, but that is a transmission advantage, not an engine one.  The front-wheel drive Cadillac 9-speed looks like it might feel spritelier than the RWD 10-speed in a vehicle of similar weight as second gear is a bit deeper on the 9 than the 10.  The 9-speed also has a very very slightly larger ratio spread.   In overall spread, the Acura wins and in theory should be the most efficient at a steady highway speed if the transmission is able to hold 10th gear, but that's a noticeable "if" as none of these tend to hold their top gear in anything but a steady cruise. The BMW ZF 8-Speed has a pretty deep 1st and 2nd, but then starts dropping the ratios faster than any other transmission. 

Long story short, if you like the car, minor differences in peak horsepower that only really occur at high RPM under full throttle really shouldn't be the deciding factor. They are marketing materials and not in any way meaningful to you on your morning commute. 

The question marks are where I didn't have enough data to make a calculation.

	Cadillac 2.0T	BMW 2.0T	MB 2.0T	Acura 2.0T
	235HP @ 5000 RPM	248 HP @ 5200-6500 RPM	255HP @ 5800-6100 rpm	272 @ 6500 rpm
	258 lb-ft @ 1500-4000 rpm	258 lb-ft @ 1450-4800 rpm	273 @ 1800-4000 rpm	280 @ 1600-4500 rpm
Peak Torque	258	258	273	280
RPM	Effective HP @ RPM	Effective HP @ RPM	Effective HP @ RPM	Effective HP @ RPM
1500	74	74	??	??
1600	79	79	??	85
1800	88	88	94	96
2000	98	98	104	107
2500	123	123	130	133
3000	147	147	156	160
3500	172	172	182	187
4000	196	196	208	213
4500	??	221	??	240
4800	Calculated torque below	236	??	??
5000	247	Calculated torque below	??	??
5200	237	250	Calculated torque below	??
5800	213	225	231	??
6000	206	217	223	Calculated torque below
6100	202	214	220	??
6500	190	200	??	220
	GM 10-Speed	ZF 8-Speed 8HP45	MB 9G-Tronic	Honda 10-Speed
First:	4.70	4.7	5.4	5.25
Second:	2.99	3.14	3.2	3.27
Third:	2.15	2.11	2.3	2.19
Fourth:	1.80	1.67	1.6	1.6
Fifth:	1.52	1.29	1.2	1.3
Sixth:	1.28	1.00	1.0	1
Seventh:	1.00	0.84	0.9	0.78
Eighth:	0.85	0.67	0.7	0.65
Ninth:	0.69	--	0.6	0.58
Tenth:	0.64	--	--	0.52
			1st gear only used in Sport	1st gear only used in Sport
	GM 9-Speed
First:	4.69
Second:	3.31
Third:	3.01
Fourth:	2.45
Fifth:	1.92
Sixth:	1.45
Seventh:	1.00
Eighth:	0.75
Ninth:	0.62

[smk4565]

On 1/30/2022 at 1:41 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

“Rides” and “Handles” are two different things and usually (though less so recently) opposite ends of the spectrum.

I don’t like harsh rides. The roads here are beyond awful. I’ll take a comfortable ride over sporty handling every day and twice on Sundays. It’s why I buy the vehicles I buy. My EValanche will have air suspension just  like my Avalanche does. I’d love an airmatic Benz but unless something changed recently they don’t make them in AWD.

The Ford Escape rides poorly and handles poorly, so some car companies can get both wrong.  

Airmatic is standard on the GLC43, all the AMG 53's and 63's, GLS, S-class, EQS, optional on any E-class or GLE, optional on C300 up to this year but going away.

As far as all the 2 liter turbo engines go, BMW probably is under rating their numbers, or else drivetrain witchcraft is happening that allows a 330i to do 0-60 in 5.4 seconds when all these competitors are around 6.  The new C300 is 255 hp, 295 lb-ft plus the 21 hp and 184 lb-ft from the 48 volt mild hybrid, which I assume the E and GLE will switch over to later this year also.  Audi and BMW should be making a similar move.

[balthazar]

255/290 is right on par with the Escape’s 250/280. BTW, C&D said all Escapes drive & handle well. Not that anyone pushes small CUVs hard, but it tested out at .85 g’s grip. 
C&D tested a gle450 and got .82, so that vehicle must handle 'terribly' if the escape is 'poor'.

Edited February 2, 2022 by balthazar

[ccap41]

I had a 2013 Escape Titanium on OEM 19" wheels (235/50R19) and it was far from driving poorly. It obviously wasn't a sports car but it definitely did not ride poorly. As Drew stated, it rode well but handled poorly. 

If I remember correctly, the reviews at the time of that new generation praised it saying it had a "euro" drive to it. 

[balthazar]

And the current one was praised in the piece I read for significant improvements vs. even the prior generation.