Industry News: Solid State Breakthrough, Safe, Long-lasting and Energy-dense!

[G. David Felt]

Be it grid storage, computers, cell phones and especially electric vehicles, a safe, long-lasting, and energy-dense battery in a smaller form factor is what every company is looking for in selling their products today. ICE or internal combustion engine vehicles have dominated the last 100 years, but the next 100 years seems to be looking at a major change and while ICE auto's will be with us for some time, technology is going to change the way humans get around in the 21st century.

Let's start with a little background information on battery format. You have your Cylindrical size cells that is used by Tesla and a few other companies in the auto industry around the world. There is then the Prismatic cell format which has been used by Toshiba for their SCiB cells that are also being used by various auto companies and the last is Polymer a pouch size cell that is being used in the auto industry such as GM with their Ultium battery packs.

There are pros and cons to all formats depending on the company you talk too. Here we are not going to get into this area except to say that their is various weight with each type of format and of course the denser you can get the battery cell with long-life and safety while in a smaller format, the more flexible the design of an auto has.

The solid-state break through comes via a partnership of LG Energy Solutions and University of California Dan Diego.

Working together the engineers have created a new type of battery that combines two promising sub-fields into a single battery. The two areas are as follows, the solid state battery, being no liquid inside the battery and the anode which in traditional Lithium batteries is made of metallic lithium. Here the anode is made of 100% silicon. As such you have a solid state silicon battery cell. The research has shown that this design allows for a very safe, long-lasting and energy-dense cell. The applications of which can be applied to storage for the electrical grid to electric vehicles and so much more where battery technology is used.

From left to right in the picture above:
1) The all solid-state battery consists of a cathode composite layer, a sulfide solid electrolyte layer, and a carbon free micro-silicon anode.
2) Before charging, discrete micro-scale Silicon particles make up the energy dense anode. During battery charging, positive Lithium ions move from the cathode to the anode, and a stable 2D interface is formed.
3) As more Lithium ions move into the anode, it reacts with micro-Silicon to form interconnected Lithium-Silicon alloy (Li-Si) particles. The reaction continues to propagate throughout the electrode.
4) The reaction causes expansion and densification of the micro-Silicon particles, forming a dense Li-Si alloy electrode. The mechanical properties of the Li-Si alloy and the solid electrolyte have a crucial role in maintaining the integrity and contact along the 2D interfacial plane.

This battery technology was published in the Journal Science nanoengineers from University of California San Diego in collaboration with researchers at LG Energy Solutions made this breakthrough possible.

To quote the published report: The development of silicon anodes for lithium-ion batteries has been largely impeded by poor interfacial stability against liquid electrolytes. Here, we enabled the stable operation of a 99.9 weight % microsilicon anode by using the interface passivating properties of sulfide solid electrolytes. Bulk and surface characterization, and quantification of interfacial components, showed that such an approach eliminates continuous interfacial growth and irreversible lithium losses. Microsilicon full cells were assembled and found to achieve high areal current density, wide operating temperature range, and high areal loadings for the different cells. The promising performance can be attributed to both the desirable interfacial property between microsilicon and sulfide electrolytes and the distinctive chemomechanical behavior of the lithium-silicon alloy.

Silicon anode in traditional lithium batteries while safer have till now received much less attention due to the lower capacity these batteries hold. Yet solid-state has become a game changer with considerable increases in performance across a wide range of temperatures and excellent cycle life in full cell use.

What does one gain in going with this design? Currently a silicon anode in a solid-state battery is 10 times greater in energy density over a commercial lithium ion battery used in a BEV that is on the market. To quote the lead author on the paper, Darren H. S. Tan PhD in chemical engineering, "With this battery configuration, we are opening a new territory for solid-state batteries using alloy anodes such as silicon". Solid-state next generation batteries currently have had restrictions on charge rates and temperature during charging. The silicon anode overcomes these limitations, allows faster charging rates at room temperature while maintaining high energy density.

The laboratory testing delivered 500 charge and discharge cycles with 80% capacity retention at room temperature, which represents exciting progress for both the silicon anode and solid state battery technologies.

To understand why this is such an important breakthrough keep this in mind, silicon offers great storage capacity, 10 times greater than graphite. Lithium-ion batteries with silicon added to the anode mix increased energy density, but suffered from real-world performance issues; the number of times the battery can be charged and discharged while maintaining performance is not acceptable.

This problem is caused by the interaction of the silicon anodes and the liquid electrolytes it is paired with. This get complicated by the large volume of expansion of silicon particles during the charge and discharge cycle resulting in severe capacity losses over time.

Per the UC San Diego team, by eliminating the carbon and binders and going with an all-silicon anode using micro-silicon a much less processed and less expensive material over nano-silicon which has been used in the past they were able to reduce cost. They then addressed the root problem being the liquid electrolyte that causes instability. Here they used a sulfide-based electrolyte which showed this solid electrolyte to be extremely stable with the all-silicon anodes.

This creative out-of-the-box thinking has allowed them to have this breakthrough and will continue to support their research as they move forward on taking this to commercial productivity. This dual approach to battery design has removed the challenges that come with organic liquid electrolyte as they went with a solid electrolyte. It also allowed them to get ride of unwanted side reactions by removing the carbon on the anode with solid electrolyte, thus avoiding continuous capacity loss that typically occurs with liquid-base electrolytes.

This two-part move has allowed the researchers to reap the full benefits of low cost, dense or high energy and the properties of silicon being environmentally benign.

To quote LG Energy President and Chief Procurement officer Myung-hwan Kim; “With the latest finding, LG Energy Solution is much closer to realizing all-solid-state battery techniques, which would greatly diversify our battery product lineup.”

As the solid state battery race moves forward, LG will be bringing this to commercial market selling these batteries via their various partners such as a potential new battery design via GM's Ultium system

News Room ｜ LG Energy Solution (lgensol.com)

A New Solid-state Battery Surprises the Researchers Who Created It (ucsd.edu)

Carbon-free high-loading silicon anodes enabled by sulfide solid electrolytes (science.org)

New all-solid-state battery is safe, long-lasting, and energy-dense - Inceptive Mind

New all-solid-state battery holds promise for grid storage and EVs (newatlas.com)

A New Solid State Battery Surprises The Researchers who Created it, all-Silicon Anode - LG Energy Solution - Batteries News

View full article

[riviera74]

This is good news.  In order for a BEV to defeat ICE, the energy density problem Must Be Solved to the point where ICE becomes uneconomical (or at least makes ICE look expensive).

Imagine your next vehicle having all the conveniences of ICE but it is battery powered.  No more gas station visits.  Much less routine maintenance (especially fluid changes!).  And hopefully: lower prices than ICE.  Most people cannot afford to BUY (not lease) a new car because the median price is almost $40K.  I think we as consumers deserve a break; how about $28K instead?  I do hope that these solid state batteries will lead to lower prices and push ICE out of the used car market for good.

[balthazar]

^ There's 275 million IC vehicles in the U.S. - you and I will never see them 'pushed out of the used market'.

[G. David Felt]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ There's 275 million IC vehicles in the U.S. - you and I will never see them 'pushed out of the used market'.

Sure Cash for ICE and recycle them all with a decent incentive. KKB value on your auto and off to the shredder!  

[67impss]

Why is this a war on ICE? If and when these EV's start to get to the point where you can drive them across the country, we still need the charging infrastructure for the entire population. That's not just the stations but the entire grid system, cabling, substations, and generation. We need all forms of fuel and generation to get us there. It seems that the time line is moving fast but the technology is in infancy, there's more to see coming down the Pike before EV's can claim victory in your war. I applaud the advancement but this might take u 200 years before we get there. I truly think GM is rushing this through killing the Voltic drive system as that was a more logical approach to the end goal. All of the manufacturer's are pricing themselves out of business trying to scale up to 100% EV's by such and such year on the backs of the average ICE buyer. In all other technology advancement the early adapter footed the bill now even those who can't afford a new car are paying for others to get a new EV with their tax dollars and you guys are taking about another round of cash for clunkers when a 1500 dollar car is bringing in 7500? 

[oldshurst442]

54 minutes ago, 67impss said:

we still need the charging infrastructure for the entire population. That's not just the stations but the entire grid system, cabling, substations, and generation. We need all forms of fuel and generation to get us there. It seems that the time line is moving fast but the technology is in infancy, there's more to see coming down the Pike before EV's can claim victory in your war. I applaud the advancement but this might take u 200 years before we get there.

Well...

NO!

You see, there is too much bitchin' and whinin' and stallin' and  meanderin' down the same ole path and NOT enough of what YOU just suggested (the bolded parts) to improve.

How is that gonna happen when literally NOTHING is done to improve that...

Why dont awesome American ingenuity and entrepreneurism and catch the bulls by the horns attitude that BUILT America to what it is today when the industrial revolution started 150 years ago do something about it? 

 

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-pushes-norways-ev-sales-140113295.html

 

Look it...

Gasoline is awesome.  Octane is a hell of a drug.  The sounds of V8s is aural sex.   Problem is, octane no longer rules our roads.  Eco small  micro displacement turboed, muffler muffled to non-existent sounds other than a few buzz buzzers buzzing here and there  4 bangers that rule our roads.  

Always with the across country road trips as an excuse...

Shyte, in some cases, during special circumstances, FLYING is CHEAPER going from one side to the country the other than using ones own car. And AMERICANS DO LIKE TO FLY...  Catch my drift.

In other words.... Driving across the damned country is NOT the ONLY option anymore. Its not 19 phoquing 55...  Its NOT Griswold's family truckster anymore...  Christ all mighty...

Shyte...

Lucid Air is said to have a 500 plus mile range...

COMMON MAN!!! 

Its 2021.

It aint 2017.

5 years have passed when THESE arguments kinda made sense.

In 5 years....things have changed DRASTICALLY in this area...

The technology may still be in its infancy, but its evolving quite fast.  

And well....the ENERGY industry in the US is lagging their feet because the EV industry in the US is LEADING the way WORLDWIDE...

Tesla

Lucid

gm

Ford

Rivian

 

Lets all get real here.

EVs are coming. They are already here.  

Laws are in place to stifle the internal combustion engine.

The WORLD minus the United States of America sees it. The WORLD is adapting. The US is STILL  bitchin' and whinin' and stallin' and  meanderin' down the same ole path.

Except for

Tesla

Lucid

gm

Ford

Rivian

 

Its up to American entrepreneurial and ingenuity know-how to MAKE the rest of your concerns happen.

Even places poor like Greece are trying to find solutions

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a36619034/vw-turning-greek-island-into-an-ev-oasis/

The Asian world is FULL of all kinds of possible solutions...

Google it.  You will be amazed...

This line of EV denial is getting quite old I must say.

Sorry for the in your face post.  But I am getting tired of this logic...

 

  

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

45 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

5 years have passed when THESE arguments kinda made sense.

In 5 years....things have changed DRASTICALLY in this area...

The technology may still be in its infancy, but its evolving quite fast.  

100% agree. Charging infrastructure has also grown exponentially in that time frame. 

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, 67impss said:

Why is this a war on ICE? If and when these EV's start to get to the point where you can drive them across the country, we still need the charging infrastructure for the entire population. That's not just the stations but the entire grid system, cabling, substations, and generation. We need all forms of fuel and generation to get us there. It seems that the time line is moving fast but the technology is in infancy, there's more to see coming down the Pike before EV's can claim victory in your war. I applaud the advancement but this might take u 200 years before we get there. I truly think GM is rushing this through killing the Voltic drive system as that was a more logical approach to the end goal. All of the manufacturer's are pricing themselves out of business trying to scale up to 100% EV's by such and such year on the backs of the average ICE buyer. In all other technology advancement the early adapter footed the bill now even those who can't afford a new car are paying for others to get a new EV with their tax dollars and you guys are taking about another round of cash for clunkers when a 1500 dollar car is bringing in 7500? 

Appreciate your response and view on this and I do agree with you that the Voltic 2.0 system was awesome and should have gone into a compact CUV and Compact truck as a logic solution for the now time. GM should have been working on this and brought it out when the 2.0 system was released.

Yet, while some places are slow to react, there are many places that are investing and yes the West Coast is ahead of the U.S., but over all the East Coast is catching up and so is the mid-west.

Yes you have the following sources to easily find charge places making a cross country trip doable for those that want to do road trips, sadly many humans want to fly there faster and just drive local, so the cross country excuse against BEVs does not hold water any longer.

Find an EV Charging Station Near You | EV Fast Charging Stations Map (evgo.com)

Find every public charging station for electric cars | ChargeHub

PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car!

Tesla Superchargers map: September 2021 | finder.com

ChargePoint

public-charging (ford.com)

EV Charging Accessibility | General Motors (gm.com)

Locate a public EV charger | Electrify America

I am sure there are even more options to help one find a charger, but then we have the U.S. map too.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) Ports by State (energy.gov)

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Alternative Fueling Station Locator (energy.gov)

This is the current Electric map:

One cannot say they cannot find a place to recharge even at home. Yet 50,477 electric stations are open. 

Here is the current all alternative fuels as comparison at 57,641 electric is winning.

According to this story there are only 115,500 gas stations in the U.S. and an interesting read.

How Many Gas Stations Are In U.S.? How Many Will There Be In 10 Years? - MarketWatch

By 2030 they are projecting the number of gas stations to be cut in half. I can attest that I see fewer and fewer gas stations around western washington.

 

[oldshurst442]

8 hours ago, David said:

One cannot say they cannot find a place to recharge even at home. Yet 50,477 electric stations are open. 

Serious question:

Do these include the home chargers?   Or is that number simply just public chargers along a highway or in a shopping mall parking lot type deal?

 

8 hours ago, David said:

According to this story there are only 115,500 gas stations in the U.S

Not so serious question:   

Does that number include home fueling pods?  Or is that number just gas stations along a highway or on a major street corner? 

 

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Serious question:

Do these include the home chargers?   Or is that number simply just public chargers along a highway or in a shopping mall parking lot type deal?

 

Not so serious question:   

Does that number include home fueling pods?  Or is that number just gas stations along a highway or on a major street corner? 

 

Electric is for public charging stations only.

DOH, I bet there is home fueling pods and should be included especially on a farm.  Story stated major retail gas stations.

[balthazar]

23 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The US is STILL  bitchin' and whinin' and stallin' and  meanderin' down the same ole path.

Except for

Tesla

Lucid

gm

Ford

Rivian

You literally named all the U.S. OEMs tho…

[oldshurst442]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

You literally named all the U.S. OEMs tho…

Sure...

Tesla seems to be doin' alright in Norway.  In China.    Tesla was doin' alright in Europe in general before VW took away part of that thunder but concerning EVs, Tesla in Europe is still bangin' on! 

Concerning the other American OEMs, they seem to have state of the art, leading EV tech as compared to the other European and Japanese OEMs.  Asian makers in China, I dont where they stand, but Korean makers are behind in EV tech to the American ones.    

Hence why I say American automotive companies are leading the way.  (I will get political later. Sorry. But necessary)   

But...concerning the infrastructure  and ENERGY industry.

The US has  weaponized political ideology AGAINST EVs to which many Americans are misinformed about certain aspects of EVs. They keep on repeating the same bullshyte ideas...

Tesla...has created its own infrastructure.  

We dont expect gm and Ford and Rivian and Lucid to do the same. 

But gm and Ford HAS slept with and been in bed with a long time with Big Oil...

Now with that being said, when you got former Presidents wanting to keep coal alive and senators of certain states vacation in Cancun Mexico when storms hit and caused a shytestorm in the electric grid and had other governing members misinform and outright lie to the public of why it happened in the first place...  When all that is happening INSTEAD of using all that brain power and money to create  some sort of electrical grid that is renewable energy, to create a grid that CAN handle the switch to EVs...

Well...what you get in the US is EXACTLY as how I explained it in my rant...

Bitchin' and whinin' and meanderin' down the same ole path...

Lyin' and cheatin' and misinformin' the public as to why NOT to switch to EVs...   And the million and one excuses that come with it.

Yet...

Tesla

Lucid

gm

Ford

Rivian

are leading the WORLD...HELPING the world SWITCH to EVs by creating technology for moving vehicles that could actually replace the internal combustion vehicle in a most seemingly way possible. 

ALL AMERICAN as you pointed out.

AMERICAN.

ELECTRIC Bald Eagles...

Norway, Greece, Finland, China, Canada, Korea, Japan, France, Germany, Thailand, Viet Nam....   the rest of the world is trying to CREATE an infrastructure to accommodate the EV.  Countries of the world, the leaders and the citizens of these countries are trying to find a solution for:

1. creating safe for the environment electrical production to sustain the new reality of EVs and batteries

2. trying to find a solution for creating batteries that are safe for mining and producing them as well as recycling.

(American brain power is in this one too tho) 

3. infrastructure.

 

here in America, in Canada too...alls I here is

Cross country trips (range anxiety):  Lucid Air has a 500 mile plus range... apparently   (Not official just yet)

Not enough chargers (range anxiety):  50 000 public chargers and growing. 116 000 gas stations.  In another 5 years, those chargers will have surpassed that gas station mark.   Plus, chargers at home for those that could have one is ALWAYS an option as NEW construction in many many places in America is MANDATORY...

Charging times...charging times...  :   Those times are getting faster for EVs.  In 5 years, wont be THAT much of a difference as compared to gassing up.  

Expensive.  : Well,  Its not as if regular cars are getting any cheaper...     Average transaction prices are 40 000.  THAT is a short spit away from actual EV pricing.  Good EVs at that.   I mean, A Hyundai Kona is a good EV...  It aint a Model S long range that does 0-60 in 3 point whatever seconds, the quarter mile in like 12 seconds or so with a range of 400 miles.  Its still a good little EV that will haul all your family's needs...    And THAT is RIGHT now...

Will EVs go lower than that?  Well...I wish Coca Cola could still cost a nickel and a loaf of bread a dime... and the movies a quarter...  But we all know that aint happening.  (I never saw those prices. Those prices was when my dad was a young kid)

So...

EVs WILL eventually cost as much as an affordable car was in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s...

It WONT be your Cadillac Lyriq or your Hummer GMC or your Tesla Model S Plaid...

It WILL be your Chevrolet Cavalier equivalent or your Ford Escort equivalent.

Just dont expect it to be a real quick or have shnazzy options.  THOSE you will have to pay for. 

It MIGHT not even BE from Chevrolet or Ford.

It COULD be something from China...

Maybe Chevrolet and Ford WANT to sell 70 000 dollar cars and trucks and SUVs no matter WHAT powers them and dont EVER want to return to the entry level stuff...

But yeah...

American car makers ARE leading the way in EV technology.

Its too damned bad that some citizens dont even see that...

But hey!

EV infrastructure sucks

Charging times suck

EVs dont have good range

EVs are this and EVs are that...  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

Sorry, but it's not ALL 'bullshit'. 

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

EVs WILL eventually cost as much as an affordable car was in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s...

What year will that happen?

[oldshurst442]

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Sorry, but it's not ALL 'bull$h!'. 

Sorry, but yes it is...

26 minutes ago, balthazar said:

What year will that happen?

Actually...now even.

 

[balthazar]

An ‘85 Chevette CS was $5340, or $13,150 in 2020.

Where is the $13K BE car in the U.S. now?

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

An ‘85 Chevette CS was $5340, or $13,150 in 2020.

Where is the $13K BE car in the U.S. now?

? Used Nissan Leaf.  

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

An ‘85 Chevette CS was $5340, or $13,150 in 2020.

Where is the $13K BE car in the U.S. now?

When you show me a NEW 13K ICE car in 2021...Ill gladly entertain your thoughts on BEs being expensive...

 

 

[Robert Hall]

3 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

When you show me a NEW 13K ICE car in 2021...Ill gladly entertain your thoughts on BEs being expensive...

 

 

Chevy Spark.   Starting from $13400.  I wonder if any exist at that price, though. 

 

 

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, balthazar said:

Sorry, but it's not ALL 'bull$h!'. 

What year will that happen?

When will ICE cars be affordable again?

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

When you show me a NEW 13K ICE car in 2021...Ill gladly entertain your thoughts on BEs being expensive...

Entertain me.
 

22 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

When will ICE cars be affordable again?

Generally speaking, a very pertinent question.

[oldshurst442]

10 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Chevy Spark.   Starting from $13400.  I wonder if any exist at that price, though. 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Entertain me.
 

Generally speaking, a very pertinent question.

 

Fair enough.

ATP for a Chevy Spark is less than 17 000.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/07/chevy-spark-average-transaction-price-in-june-was-less-than-17k/

 

 

Quote

 

It’s not surprising to see the average transaction price for the Chevy Spark come in at under $17,000. Pricing for the hatchback starts at just $14,595 for the LS trim level with the base six-speed manual transmission including destination and freight charges. The most expensive Chevy Spark model, the 2LT trim level with the six-speed automatic transmission, starts at $19,095.

 

 

But here is where I have to entertain you.  I promised.  I am mostly a man of my words.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-10/cheap-electric-vehicles-in-china-bring-green-transportation-to-the-masses

In China, there are many EVs that are even cheaper than 13K.  Less than 10K even.

But these will never pass safety regs in the US, Im assuming.  Plus, these are no frills cars.  Something that American consumers have not seen since the Chevette you mentioned.   And I have a feeling these EVs have even less frills than the Chevette.

So where do we go from here?

Lets be real for starters.

The Chevy Spark sells about 30 000 units/year.  I dont think there is another car like this one available in the US market for sale. And for good reason as Americans dont WANT this type of vehicle. 

My reasoning.   Honda and Toyota, I think, have done away with there micro cars in the US market...

Also, ATPs for new cars in the US is 40 000.

But...as a said, TODAY there is a nice little EV that is JUST above that ATP price. But you want me to show you an "affordable" EV BELOW 40 000.

Well...there IS such a vehicle.

@David mentioned a USED Nissan Leaf.

Well...

a NEW Nissan Leaf goes for starting price @ 28 000 US dollars.

A Chevrolet Bolt is just a tad more than that.  

When you asked will affordable EVs be really affordable?    Now I say.   And I stand by that statement firmly.   Since there are at least two EVs that sell at or below the ATPs of new cars sold in the US.  As far as I know, the Chevy Spark is the ONLY car sold in the US at about 15K...

 

 

 

 

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

As far as I know, the Chevy Spark is the ONLY car sold in the US at about 15K...

 

Mitsubishi Mirage may be the only other US market super cheap tiny car.

https://www.mitsubishicars.com/mirage/2021

 

[balthazar]

China is OUT.
Used is OUT.
As in; OUTside the parameters of our chat here.

- - - - -
So, Spark is a model "Americans don't WANT" and sold 33K units in '20.
Bolt (assumedly) is a model 'everybody' wants, and sold 20K units in '20.

Perhaps, and to my point; here is where pricing disparity comes into play. ?

A fascinating experiment would be (and I've said this before); price a Spark and a Bolt identically, and see where the sales totals fall. I think they will move closer, but NOT invert. 

[oldshurst442]

Yeah.  Spark and Bolt. Same price.  Interesting experiment indeed.

But then again. There is this:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/tesla-delivers-record-breaking-number-205017718.html

I think those Tesla 3rd quarter sales are world wide. Nevertheless, regardless where those sales are, regardless what kind of EV prices we like EV prices to be...Tesla has hit a sweet spot with prices in their Model 3 and Model Y EVs.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

China is OUT.
Used is OUT.
As in; OUTside the parameters of our chat here.

- - - - -
So, Spark is a model "Americans don't WANT" and sold 33K units in '20.
Bolt (assumedly) is a model 'everybody' wants, and sold 20K units in '20.

Perhaps, and to my point; here is where pricing disparity comes into play. ?

A fascinating experiment would be (and I've said this before); price a Spark and a Bolt identically, and see where the sales totals fall. I think they will move closer, but NOT invert. 

New EV's starting from $29K and top out at $39K. Seems a decent list to start with many more on the way.

10 Cheapest Electric Vehicles

1. 2021 Mini Electric Hardtop
2. 2022 Chevrolet Bolt EV
3. 2021 Nissan Leaf
4. 2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV
5. 2021 Hyundai Ioniq
6. 2021 Hyundai Kona
7. 2021 Tesla Model 3
8. 2021 Kia Niro EV
9. 2021 Tesla Model Y
10. 2021 Volkswagen ID.4

10 Cheapest Electric Cars - Autotrader

Or buy online and ship in cheap EV's new off Alibaba site!

Totally legal to buy starting new from $1,200 with some assembly required.

Find electric car, Zero-Emission Utility Vehicles – Alibaba.com

 

I will say reading this web site weekly for the strange new Electric auto of the week sold off Alibaba is pretty funny.

Awesomely Weird Alibaba Electric Vehicle of the Week: Tiny One-Seater Electric Car - Electrek

[G. David Felt]

Very cool that we are continually advancing battery technology as the charger tech is also moving forward pretty fast as we now have the newest chargers capable of sustained 360 kW of power recharging. Installation of these new units will begin in Europe now and available for purchase starting 2022 in the rest of the world.

ABB launches the world’s fastest electric car charger

EV Charging | Electric Vehicle Chargers | ABB

Coming soon to a recharging station near you.

Press release is that these chargers can recharge a 400 mile battery pack in 15 min.

They also have a 4 charger cord unit that can sustain charging all four 400 mile battery pack auto's like a Rivian R1T in 15 min.

 

[ccap41]

On 10/3/2021 at 8:34 PM, balthazar said:

A fascinating experiment would be (and I've said this before); price a Spark and a Bolt identically, and see where the sales totals fall. I think they will move closer, but NOT invert. 

Wouldn't that be about the Bolt and Cruze? Close, not perfect though. They're, I believe, similarly sized as well, to help comparison. 

[G. David Felt]

On 10/3/2021 at 6:34 PM, balthazar said:

A fascinating experiment would be (and I've said this before); price a Spark and a Bolt identically, and see where the sales totals fall. I think they will move closer, but NOT invert. 

Comparing would it not be better to do the Trax CUV to the Bolt CUV since they are within inches of each other for length, height and width?

[Robert Hall]

Chevy needs an ECUV in the Equinox size range at a reasonable price...the Bolt is too tiny.

[ccap41]

20 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Chevy needs an ECUV in the Equinox size range at a reasonable price...the Bolt is too tiny.

Don't they have a Bolt EUV now? I don't know how it compares size-wise but I think it's close to the 'Nox. 

[Robert Hall]

On 10/6/2021 at 10:34 AM, ccap41 said:

Don't they have a Bolt EUV now? I don't know how it compares size-wise but I think it's close to the 'Nox. 

It's 2 inches longer than the Trax and over a foot shorter than the Equinox...I'm thinking they need something with a normal CUV form factor, not potato shaped...

From what I've heard, Chevy will be getting a larger EUV, one that is Lyriq sized (Lyriq is between the Nox and Travy in size).   Buick and GMC likely will as well, in typical GM fashion. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

21 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

It's 2 inches longer than the Trax and over a foot shorter than the Equinox...I'm thinking they need something with a normal CUV form factor, not potato shaped...

Oh wow, I didn't realize it was that small. Thanks!