Lincoln News: 2022 First BEV, All BEV by 2030 as Lincoln Celebrates it 100th Anniversary in 2022

[surreal1272]

35 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

The new Continental was far from bad. It was the HUGE step forward that Lincoln needed. It was the first Lincoln in decades to get it's own bespoke engine and they were no longer using Ford switchgear inside. It also had, arguably, the best seats in the industry. 

Agreed on the Continental. It’s problem is that it was about five years late to the game, when people were still slightly more interested in sedans. The car itself was not a failure, anymore so than the dozens of German models that have come and gone in the last twenty years alone. 

[G. David Felt]

I honestly agree with @ccap41 & @surreal1272 that the Continental WAS NOT a failure, just too little too late and the bulk of the auto media seems to agree with me on that point.

The Lincoln Continental Sedan Is Dead. Again. (motortrend.com)

This Is Why Lincoln Is Discontinuing The Continental (hotcars.com)

You all know I have in the past blasted the Continental for being to small inside and not a true full size of what I could fit into in the 80's. That by no means indicates it was a poorly built, substandard luxury sedan. Pretty much those that bought the car love it and you really do not see many listed for sale on used.

Selling used is an indicator that Lincoln can and probably will have success with a much more roomy interior BEV Zephyr sedan for those that are ready to trade in their ICE Continental.

Everything I read about Lincoln Luxury, BEV seems to indicate that Ford truly released their luxury division to get back to their roots of building unique LUXURY BEVs and for that I am very excited to see.

The Zephyr could help Lincoln, seriously | Autoblog

To Quote Autoblog story on how a BEV Zephyr can help Lincoln.

Why would a new sedan fare any better? Lincoln didn’t reveal the powertrain of the prototype, but an electric Zephyr sedan could bring in a whole new customer to the brand. Even Tesla isn’t building or selling that many Model S sedans, but the segment is still viable, as evidenced by the Mercedes EQE and EQS. Stylish sedans, particularly powered by electricity, could make some early adopters rethink their attitudes toward legacy car brands.

Lincoln Keeps Sedans Alive With Zephyr Reflection Concept In China | Carscoops

Lincoln Zephyr Reflection Concept Debuts At Shanghai Auto Show (fordauthority.com)

Lincoln Will Release First EV Next Year, Electrify Entire Lineup by 2030 (thedrive.com)

Ford’s Lincoln Line Going Electric And The First New Model Arrives In 2022 (forbes.com)

First Fully Electric Lincoln Is Coming In 2022 (insideevs.com)

Lincoln's first full EV debuts next year, 'fully electrified' portfolio planned by 2030 - Roadshow (cnet.com)

Why is @smk4565 trying to derail as usual to being a thread on another brand, FEAR. FEAR, FEAR, FEAR

Fact is, even the auto media has commented on how ugly the EQS is, Tesla should also FEAR Lincoln,

This is a Million Times better looking BEV than Tesla or MB has currently on the market globally.

This interior puts Tesla and MB to shame! Rock on Lincoln BEV Zephyr!

 

[oldshurst442]

The problem with the Continental was that FoMoCo didnt use (didnt have at their disposal and didnt have the time to engineer) a proper platform for it.  They just used the CD4 platform. The Fusion/MKZ platform albeit the LWB version.  It made the Continental look small especially as compared to the concept they unveiled.

It wasnt majestic enough 

1. in actual looks

2. to actually compliment the namesake of Continental.

Also, there were small exterior detailing that missed the mark that were on the concept that made the concept stand-out. Small details that were omitted that made the difference between wannabe luxury to truly greatness.  A longer wheelbase than the LWB CD4 is one.  Body panel lines on the concept made the Continental look like a handcrafted uber machine.  On the production version, the Continental looked like a badge engineered Fusion...or a more gussied up MKZ...

On the interior though, THAT would be Lincoln's FIRST step in addressing the issues that American luxury cars had...which would be the perception that American luxury makes cheapen out their interiors. The Continental put an end to that and proved that Lincoln was not messing around anymore and the result is truly shown in Navigator and Aviator SUVs. 

 

[oldshurst442]

Lincoln as with Cadillac, are on a mission to capture their glory days.  And are truly manufacturing great vehicles.  Their interiors are for the first time in 50 years, truly in the realm of what they were building 50 years ago. 

The engineering prowess will be shown in their EVs.  FoMoCo has to one-up the Mach-E with a Lincoln product. And THAT must come shortly.  

Cadillac on the other hand is truly on its way.   

 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Agreed on the Continental. It’s problem is that it was about five years late to the game, when people were still slightly more interested in sedans. The car itself was not a failure, anymore so than the dozens of German models that have come and gone in the last twenty years alone. 

No more of a failure than an SLK. 

Yeah, it was late but if they used their old formula 5 years earlier, it would have been a garbage product. The Continental really was the turning point for Lincoln and has to get credit for where Lincoln is today with their pretty awesome lineup(awesome for comfy, quiet-luxury - Obviously not sporty-luxury). 

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The problem with the Continental was that FoMoCo didnt use (didnt have at their disposal and didnt have the time to engineer) a proper platform for it.  They just used the CD4 platform. The Fusion/MKZ platform albeit the LWB version.  It made the Continental look small especially as compared to the concept they unveiled.

It wasnt majestic enough 

1. in actual looks

2. to actually compliment the namesake of Continental.

Also, there were small exterior detailing that missed the mark that were on the concept that made the concept stand-out. Small details that were omitted that made the difference between wannabe luxury to truly greatness.  A longer wheelbase than the LWB CD4 is one.  Body panel lines on the concept made the Continental look like a handcrafted uber machine.  On the production version, the Continental looked like a badge engineered Fusion...or a more gussied up MKZ...

On the interior though, THAT would be Lincoln's FIRST step in addressing the issues that American luxury cars had...which would be the perception that American luxury makes cheapen out their interiors. The Continental put an end to that and proved that Lincoln was not messing around anymore and the result is truly shown in Navigator and Aviator SUVs. 

 

Agreed, and that's why i have it a 9/10 baked product. it was have been more refined in the driving category had it not been on a modified old platform. 

Also agreed on the small things that went away with the production version. It was nothing drastic but a lot of small things added up to not-quite-as-elegant end product. 

Personally, I don't think it looked like a badge engineered Fusion or gussied up MKZ, but I do get what you mean. 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:29 PM, smk4565 said:

Because Gottlieb Daimler 125 ago had the motto "the best or nothing," and they honor that to this day.

The G-wagon was the fastest selling vehicle in the USA in May, and at an average ATP of $174,700.  I don't see many Toyota's selling for $174k, or Lexus for that matter.  I don't see Lincoln selling Navigators at $174k, why not?  They want to be "world class" then step up to the plate.

The vans aren't luxury, they are commercial vehicles, Mercedes markets them that way as well.   They aren't even sold though the same dealership network as their cars, nor are they even part of the same business unit as their cars.

Well that's just bollocks.... that stat is based on what? Time on lot before sale?  If that's the case then the Land Cruiser and Volvo V90 sell faster because they are only available by special order... meaning that it is sold before it hits the lot.  The G-wagon volume is too small to be a valid sample size. 

[oldshurst442]

5 hours ago, ccap41 said:

No more of a failure than an SLK. 

Yeah, it was late but if they used their old formula 5 years earlier, it would have been a garbage product. The Continental really was the turning point for Lincoln and has to get credit for where Lincoln is today with their pretty awesome lineup(awesome for comfy, quiet-luxury - Obviously not sporty-luxury). 

Agreed, and that's why i have it a 9/10 baked product. it was have been more refined in the driving category had it not been on a modified old platform. 

Also agreed on the small things that went away with the production version. It was nothing drastic but a lot of small things added up to not-quite-as-elegant end product. 

Personally, I don't think it looked like a badge engineered Fusion or gussied up MKZ, but I do get what you mean. 

I might be just a tad too harsh on the Fusion look-alike comparison, but the little details that should have been on the Continental did cheapen the effect of it being a TRUE Continental.

The one problem I do have though, and why I will not retract my statement of gussied up MKZ as I did with the Fusion statement is that I am miffed at Lincoln for giving the Continental's nose on the MKZ BEFORE the Continental even came out.   That new face now is  Lincoln's new corporate face, which is a pretty face. Not only is it a pretty face, but a commanding, true luxury face.   But Lincoln should have left that face unique to the Continental if only for a year. Then Lincoln could have made it their corporate look and placed it on the MKZ. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

42 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The one problem I do have though, and why I will not retract my statement of gussied up MKZ as I did with the Fusion statement is that I am miffed at Lincoln for giving the Continental's nose on the MKZ BEFORE the Continental even came out. 

I thought there was a year difference but I guess they both got it in 2017. 

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Well that's just bollocks.... that stat is based on what? Time on lot before sale?  If that's the case then the Land Cruiser and Volvo V90 sell faster because they are only available by special order... meaning that it is sold before it hits the lot.  The G-wagon volume is too small to be a valid sample size. 

9 day average on dealer lots.

9 hours ago, ccap41 said:

The new Continental was far from bad. It was the HUGE step forward that Lincoln needed. It was the first Lincoln in decades to get it's own bespoke engine and they were no longer using Ford switchgear inside. It also had, arguably, the best seats in the industry. 

I'd say it was 9/10 baked. It needed a little more refinement but it was far from bad. 

It was built on a Fusion platform...

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

 

Agreed, and that's why i have it a 9/10 baked product. it was have been more refined in the driving category had it not been on a modified old platform. 

Also agreed on the small things that went away with the production version. It was nothing drastic but a lot of small things added up to not-quite-as-elegant end product. 

Personally, I don't think it looked like a badge engineered Fusion or gussied up MKZ, but I do get what you mean. 

So if you are challenging benchmarks like the E-class, 5-series and A6 (at least in price segment), then why do you come with a 9/10 baked product?  And if they were going for full size like an A8 or Lexus LS, they were in fantasy land, but even a Lexus ES350 is/was a better product then the Continental, and the Lexus was cheaper.  

If they want this Zypher to sell, they need an 11/10 product something nice than a Genesis G80, but EV with more performance and the same price as a G80.  Or come up with a hook like level 4 self driving standard, something that is way cutting edge that will attract people that otherwise wouldn't consider it.

[balthazar]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

if you are challenging benchmarks like the E-class, 5-series and A6

Which one is the benchmark? Can't be 3 benchmarks...

[Drew Dowdell]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

So if you are challenging benchmarks like the E-class, 5-series and A6 (at least in price segment), then why do you come with a 9/10 baked product?  And if they were going for full size like an A8 or Lexus LS, they were in fantasy land, but even a Lexus ES350 is/was a better product then the Continental, and the Lexus was cheaper.  

If they want this Zypher to sell, they need an 11/10 product something nice than a Genesis G80, but EV with more performance and the same price as a G80.  Or come up with a hook like level 4 self driving standard, something that is way cutting edge that will attract people that otherwise wouldn't consider it.

The ES was not a better vehicle than the Continental even by SMK standards. The ES is a Camry De Lux and nothing more, even using the same V6 the Camry gets.  It doesn't come with AWD, it doesn't come with a turbo V6 and the interior is nowhere near as plush as the Continental. 

[smk4565]

13 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ES was not a better vehicle than the Continental even by SMK standards. The ES is a Camry De Lux and nothing more, even using the same V6 the Camry gets.  It doesn't come with AWD, it doesn't come with a turbo V6 and the interior is nowhere near as plush as the Continental. 

I think it has AWD now, might not have back then.  The base Continental was front drive with a 305 hp V6, just like the ES350, and Toyota engines are more reliable and Toyota/Lexus have far better resale value.  The Continental’s difference was having the turbo V6 and AWD and that was an advantage over the ES, but not over any of the Germans.

And as an example of how crazy good Toyota resale is, I wrote and estimate and ran a total loss value on a 2018 4Runner SR5 with 53k miles, and it was $43,800 (average of NADA and market value).  A 2021 4Runner with the same trim and same options has a sticker price of $43,379.  And I have twice this month had 2019 RAV4 hybrids come in for more than original msrp.  There is no Lincoln on earth that after 3 years and 53k miles went up in value, Lincoln resale value is awful. 

[balthazar]

Private sale value of my GMC is $12K more than I paid for it 2 months ago.
Have read dozens upon dozens of truck owners getting offers 6-12 grand higher (from dealers) than they paid over the last 5 years. That's blowing toyoter's numbers out of the water.

Edited June 26, 2021 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I think it has AWD now, might not have back then.  The base Continental was front drive with a 305 hp V6, just like the ES350, and Toyota engines are more reliable and Toyota/Lexus have far better resale value.  The Continental’s difference was having the turbo V6 and AWD and that was an advantage over the ES, but not over any of the Germans.

And as an example of how crazy good Toyota resale is, I wrote and estimate and ran a total loss value on a 2018 4Runner SR5 with 53k miles, and it was $43,800 (average of NADA and market value).  A 2021 4Runner with the same trim and same options has a sticker price of $43,379.  And I have twice this month had 2019 RAV4 hybrids come in for more than original msrp.  There is no Lincoln on earth that after 3 years and 53k miles went up in value, Lincoln resale value is awful. 

 

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Private sale value of my GMC is $12K more than I paid for it 2 months ago.
Have read dozens upon dozens of truck owners getting offers 6-12 grand higher (from dealers) than they paid over the last 5 years. That's blowing toyoter's numbers out of the water.

Sedans in general do not hold their value well, however, this market has gotten so wonky that even my 2017 300C has gone up in value since I bought it in October. Trade-in is higher than what I paid. Private party is around $4k higher than what I paid.

My 2013 Avalanche LTZ has increased in value enough that even though it is nearly 9 model years old, private party is over the original LS base price by $2k and $5k higher than what I paid in August and 12,000 miles ago.  Trade in value is also over what I paid, but not by as much of course.  I don't expect that it will ever return to the $48k sticker price it had when new... but hovering at $10k in depreciation over 9 years... well beat that with a stick. 

Toyota isn't the only one with good resale.   BTW, the ES only comes in AWD with the 203 hp I4 engine.  If you want the V6 it is FWD only.  They "brag" about the ES250 AWD F-Sport 0-60 being 8.6 seconds on the website. 

[oldshurst442]

20 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Private sale value of my GMC is $12K more than I paid for it 2 months ago.
 

 

3 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

Sedans in general do not hold their value well, however, this market has gotten so wonky that even my 2017 300C has gone up in value since I bought it in October. Trade-in is higher than what I paid. Private party is around $4k higher than what I paid.

My 2013 Avalanche LTZ has increased in value enough that even though it is nearly 9 model years old, private party is over the original LS base price by $2k and $5k higher than what I paid in August and 12,000 miles ago.  Trade in value is also over what I paid, but not by as much of course.  I don't expect that it will ever return to the $48k sticker price it had when new... but hovering at $10k in depreciation over 9 years... well beat that with a stick. 

Toyota isn't the only one with good resale.   BTW, the ES only comes in AWD with the 203 hp I4 engine.  If you want the V6 it is FWD only.  They "brag" about the ES250 AWD F-Sport 0-60 being 8.6 seconds on the website. 

 

This phenomenon...  because of the chip shortage where there is a shortage of new vehicles to sell and long wait period for one a reason?  

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

 

This phenomenon...  because of the chip shortage where there is a shortage of new vehicles to sell and long wait period for one a reason?  

Yeah.  My friend went to test drive the Atlas and Passport today. Each dealership had only 2 of each model in stock. The VW dealer said that they weren't taking ANY orders for the Atlas and they didn't expect replenishment until late August.   That pushes a lot of people into the used market to get exactly the car they want.  Couple that with the insane trade-in prices the new-wave online dealers are offering and there is a bubble forming.  Carvana gave me $8,500 for a base base base model 2014 Cruze back in August, and they bought the 2013 Encore with 100k miles on it for $9,000.  Back then, that was $2,500 more than any other dealer would give me on trade-in, about equal to a private party sale, so I sold it to Carvana and bought the Chrysler 300C elsewhere.

Just for giggles I went and looked up what KBB says a 2013 Encore with 100k miles and the same options should be.  They're now saying that it's worth $9,200 in trade and $11,200 private party.

[oldshurst442]

Almost make me wanna privately sell both of my cars...

Then I realize.  BOTH of my cars are just that...cars.  Sedans.  The diseased, stay-the-phoque-away from me zombies of the car world.  Plus...Ill need to buy new vehicles to replace the ones that I just sold...if I even could sell them to begin with.  And there are none to begin with.  And Ill have to over pay anyway.

So what is the point?  I might as well keep them, pray they dont catastrophically fail me or total them and Im fine...

Yeah...Im good.   Nothing out there still to entice me to trade-up or down.   Ill like where I am with my cars. Paid for a while back. NO monthly payments. Both cars are rock solid reliable. Both are in good condition.    

[Drew Dowdell]

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Almost make me wanna privately sell both of my cars...

Then I realize.  BOTH of my cars are just that...cars.  Sedans.  The diseased, stay-the-phoque-away from me zombies of the car world.  Plus...Ill need to buy new vehicles to replace the ones that I just sold...if I even could sell them to begin with.  And there are none to begin with.  And Ill have to over pay anyway.

So what is the point?  I might as well keep them, pray they dont catastrophically fail me or total them and Im fine...

Yeah...Im good.   Nothing out there still to entice me to trade-up or down.   Ill like where I am with my cars. Paid for a while back. NO monthly payments. Both cars are rock solid reliable. Both are in good condition.    

Any increase in trade value you get is more than off-set by the increase of the cost of the vehicle you buy to replace it.  So, no, it's absolutely not worth it right now.  The only way you benefit is if you're just selling and not replacing and you really get hosed if you're buying but not trading.

I wasn't clairvoyant or anything when I did my transactions (the Avalanche I wanted regardless and would have paid more for it if that's what carvana priced it at) it was just good timing.  For the Chrysler I just happened on a fantastic deal on an off-lease car with low mileage.... it was still experiencing Chrysler depreciation when I got it and I sold the Encore on the upswing.  Pure luck. 

[oldshurst442]

I hear ya Drew. 

I dont necessarily need two vehicles as my wife is a stay at home wife. But having 2 cars in the family does help to make life easie.  Therefore, even if I had a hot commodity truck or SUV/CUV, I wouldnt be parting ways with it. 

Its like the housing market right now.  In the Canadian markets of Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal anyway.  House prices of old and new construction have soared through the roof before Covid but especially during the Covid era. But like you said, any money you make selling, you have to dish it out and more on replacing...

 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Private sale value of my GMC is $12K more than I paid for it 2 months ago.
Have read dozens upon dozens of truck owners getting offers 6-12 grand higher (from dealers) than they paid over the last 5 years. That's blowing toyoter's numbers out of the water.

Because some folks have more money than sense, if you ask me.

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I think it has AWD now, might not have back then.  The base Continental was front drive with a 305 hp V6, just like the ES350, and Toyota engines are more reliable and Toyota/Lexus have far better resale value.  The Continental’s difference was having the turbo V6 and AWD and that was an advantage over the ES, but not over any of the Germans.

And as an example of how crazy good Toyota resale is, I wrote and estimate and ran a total loss value on a 2018 4Runner SR5 with 53k miles, and it was $43,800 (average of NADA and market value).  A 2021 4Runner with the same trim and same options has a sticker price of $43,379.  And I have twice this month had 2019 RAV4 hybrids come in for more than original msrp.  There is no Lincoln on earth that after 3 years and 53k miles went up in value, Lincoln resale value is awful. 

I paid $12,800 for my 2015 Flex w/88K miles on it a year and half ago. It has 105K now and I could sell it for $15K private party. It has gone up 15% this year. This is happening with just about every used car out there. That 4Runner is not unique in that.

Edited June 26, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

There is no Lincoln on earth that after 3 years and 53k miles went up in value, Lincoln resale value is awful.

The exact same thing can be said about your pet brand. In fact, it’s an absolute fact. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

31 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Because some folks have more money than sense, if you ask me.

I paid $12,800 for my 2015 Flex w/88K miles on it a year and half ago. It has 105K now and I could sell it for $15K private party. It has gone up 15% this year. This is happening with just about every used car out there. That 4Runner is not unique in that.

But I am not talking something bought a year ago at the bottom and selling now in a hot market.  I am talking about a car sold in 2018 that had 53k miles put on it, selling for over the 2021 MSRP.   Used car market is hot, but 3 year old Lincolns and Fords aren't getting original MSRP like Toyotas can.  If people can't find a new car, but want the next best thing, it seems that the market is looking at Toyota.

[oldshurst442]

Edited June 26, 2021 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

In case you were wonderin' what that pic above is for  and why I posted it. 

Take a peek inside and see who sits in there and that would be clue #1. 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

@smk4565 And again, educate yourself. From an article about increased used car prices. Interesting the omission of certain brands here. 
 

There are 11 brands in CarGurus' data set that have seen used car prices go up more than 30 percent, year over year. The list is led by Ram (up 40.5 percent), followed by Aston Martin (38.1), Ford (38.7), GMC (37.9), Chevrolet (37.3), Dodge (36.4), VW (35.1), Lincoln (32.9), Toyota (30.5), and Hyundai and Kia (both 30.1).

[oldshurst442]

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But I am not talking something bought a year ago

 

THAT is sooooo 4 score and 7 years ago...

Clue #2 

 

[surreal1272]

58 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But I am not talking something bought a year ago at the bottom and selling now in a hot market.

You have a reading comprehension problem. My car is six years old and went up in value, not a year ago. Again, this is a trend on ALL cars but some do better than others. Feel free to refer my post at the top of this page. Let me add to that part:

The CarGurus tool also lets you see how much the particular model you want has increased in price. So, for instance, the average price of a 2018 Volkswagen Atlas is up 14 percent, while the average price of a 2018 Ford Escape is up 24 percent year over year.

58 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Fords aren't getting original MSRP like Toyotas can.

That particular Toyota (RAV4 hybrid) is a lower volume model because of it being a hybrid but you knew this already before you decided to slam a domestic ride yet again. Base model RAV4s sure as hell don’t do that. Again, stop the BS routine. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

@smk4565And what goes up must come down. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeremyalicandri/2021/06/14/used-car-values-are-about-to-crash-car-buyers-brace-for-impact/amp/

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

You have a reading comprehension problem. My car is six years old and went up in value, not a year ago. Again, this is a trend on ALL cars but some do better than others. Feel free to refer my post at the top of this page. Let me add to that part:

The CarGurus tool also lets you see how much the particular model you want has increased in price. So, for instance, the average price of a 2018 Volkswagen Atlas is up 14 percent, while the average price of a 2018 Ford Escape is up 24 percent year over year.

That particular Toyota (RAV4 hybrid) is a lower volume model because of it being a hybrid but you knew this already before you decided to slam a domestic ride yet again. Base model RAV4s sure as hell don’t do that. Again, stop the BS routine. 

I don't care about year over year, in spring 2020 the new and used car market were both dead.  I care about the price of a used car today vs what that car cost new 2-3 years ago.  The 2018 Escape has an average price of $21,694, but a 2021 Escape SE is $30k, it still depreciated $9k in 3 years.   According to car gurus the 2018 4Runner is selling for $41,830, a brand new 2021 4Runner SR5 Premium with a moonroof has an MSRP of $41,580.  Zero depreciation over 3 years, that is what is crazy.  

And my point is the Lincoln brand does not have this sort of desirability, in that their new vehicles have low sales numbers, and their used ones have poor resale value, because they aren't sought after on the used market either.  I'd say only Infiniti has a worse image than Lincoln as far as luxury brands go, and Alfa Romeo is so small in volume, hard to gauge there, overall their image isn't good, but they have some hardcore followers.

Edited June 27, 2021 by smk4565

[surreal1272]

28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't care about year over year, in spring 2020 the new and used car market were both dead.  I care about the price of a used car today vs what that car cost new 2-3 years ago.  The 2018 Escape has an average price of $21,694, but a 2021 Escape SE is $30k, it still depreciated $9k in 3 years.   According to car gurus the 2018 4Runner is selling for $41,830, a brand new 2021 4Runner SR5 Premium with a moonroof has an MSRP of $41,580.  Zero depreciation over 3 years, that is what is crazy.  

And my point is the Lincoln brand does not have this sort of desirability, in that their new vehicles have low sales numbers, and their used ones have poor resale value, because they aren't sought after on the used market either.  I'd say only Infiniti has a worse image than Lincoln as far as luxury brands go, and Alfa Romeo is so small in volume, hard to gauge there, overall their image isn't good, but they have some hardcore followers.

Then your 4 Runner example does not fly because its high value was a direct result of what has happened to EVERY OTHER BRAND out there. That's what you are clearly not getting. You also assuming the term levels in question here without a direct link or comparison. Just pulling stuff out of thin air. Now please read the chart in the link below. Lincoln has been pulling higher 90 increases than Lexus and Mercedes.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/price-trends/

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

BTW @smk4565. The Flex started at $26K in 2019 yet the average price for a three year old CUV that isn't produced anymore is $30K (the 2018 is $28K). Go ahead and sidestep those facts so that you can keep on slamming domestics.

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

BTW @smk4565. The Flex started at $26K in 2019 yet the average price for a three year old CUV that isn't produced anymore is $30K (the 2018 is $28K). Go ahead and sidestep those facts so that you can keep on slamming domestics.

 

2018 Flex started at $31,195 per Kelly Blue Book.  https://www.kbb.com/ford/flex/2018/  And what I would assume be the volume model SEL $33,905.

And in 2019 prices rose slightly, per KBB again:

 

So the price today of a Flex is not more than what someone paid for one in 2018 or 2019.

[smk4565]

If we are going to play the compare resale value game, here is the Navigator:

And the Lexus LX:

And the G-wagen:

A 2016 Navigator is worth $30k less than a 2016 Lexus, and they cost about the same new.    The Lincoln seems to do okay in the first few years then really drops off in value, which I think goes to a lot of people not wanting an older Ford/Lincoln product, vs being very willing to pay for an older Toyota product because people know a Toyota/Lexus will last a long time.   And a 4 year old G-wagen is pretty close to what they cost new, and not sure why '20 and '21 G-wagen's are over $200k, but hot demand I guess. 

[Robert Hall]

Depreciation.   As far as the recent temporary price rise in used cars, supposedly my Jeep is worth a few thousand more than last year at this time.  Even though it is 7 years old w/ 50k miles.  

Edited June 27, 2021 by Robert Hall

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A 2016 Navigator is worth $30k less than a 2016 Lexus,

Maybe you should look at this first. There was “only” a $25K price difference between them brand new so I don’t know where in the hell you got this “they were the same price” BS from. That literally kills your entire argument there. 

The Benz is even easier to dismiss since it is a low volume vehicle. Hell, the discontinued Chevrolet SS sedan used prices sell around original MSRP for the same reason. It was a low volume production car. F that G-Wagen. 
 

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

2018 Flex started at $31,195 per Kelly Blue Book.  https://www.kbb.com/ford/flex/2018/  And what I would assume be the volume model SEL $33,905.

And in 2019 prices rose slightly, per KBB again:

 

So the price today of a Flex is not more than what someone paid for one in 2018 or 2019.

You are still missing the point. A three year old Ford is still selling at or near its original MSRP and the value is still going up (much like that 4 Runner you can’t source properly), hardly this big drop bull$h! you keep throwing around about Fords and Lincoln’s. Btw, the volume model is the SE. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

@smk4565—And bringing up the low volume G-Wagen was just dumb. Sorry. If you’re going bring Benz into the folks with full size SUVs like the Lexus and Lincoln, then you have to bring up the GLS. I’m guessing there is a good reason why you didn’t though. Let me help you.

 

 

 

 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

If you’re going bring Benz into the folks

Correction. It should read “If you’re going bring Benz into the fold…”

[smk4565]

If Lincoln resale value was good, quality and interiors are so good and the products are “world class” as Lincoln claims, then why aren’t they selling?  And they aren’t selling in the USA let alone getting beat 15-1 by any German brand in China and Lincoln not being a factor in Europe.

[balthazar]

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

why aren’t they selling

What are you talking about??

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If Lincoln resale value was good, quality and interiors are so good and the products are “world class” as Lincoln claims, then why aren’t they selling?  And they aren’t selling in the USA let alone getting beat 15-1 by any German brand in China and Lincoln not being a factor in Europe.

Lincoln sales are way up in the last few years.  Sure the sedans are gone, but the German sedans are hanging on by a thread (in the US) also... and Tesla (Go USA!) is outselling the Germans Combined in sedan sales in their respective markets. 

[balthazar]

Lincoln has been running in the low 100K - 112K since 2015; a consistent, low-volume brand. 

[smk4565]

42 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Lincoln sales are way up in the last few years.  Sure the sedans are gone, but the German sedans are hanging on by a thread (in the US) also... and Tesla (Go USA!) is outselling the Germans Combined in sedan sales in their respective markets. 

Lincoln was down last year (and pretty much every one was) and are down this year.

2020

2021 Q1 

Also shrinking your product line is't a way to grow sales.  So they kill sedans, kill the Nautilus when the Edge dies in a year or 2, and I supposed replace the a Lincoln version of Mach-E, which makes sense, that is a 1 for 1 swap.  But those 2 Lincoln sedans didn't sell, I don't see how a more expensive Zephyr EV would sell.  

And in Q1 the BMW X3 and X5 alone are outselling the whole Lincoln brand, same for the Mercedes GLE and GLC, they outsell the whole brand.  So the strategy of put all our focus on SUVs and we'll go head to head in certain segments isn't working, they are losing in those segments.  And Ford SUVs aren't segment leaders either in most cases, so how long can you re-work those and put Lincoln badges on them before Lincoln is just Mercury and gets killed off because it isn't worth the hassle for 100k or less sales a year in USA, and 50,000 sales in China.

 

38 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Lincoln has been running in the low 100K - 112K since 2015; a consistent, low-volume brand. 

But is that a profitable business model?  Their global volume is like 150k units a year, when other luxury brands are over 2 million, Tesla is over 500,000 last year, expected to hit 600,000 this year.  If 150k units a year is profitable then Ford will keep them around.  But if 150k units is making Ford profit they are pleased with, wouldn't they rather have 300k sales and double the profit?  or 600k sales and quadruple the profit? 

[balthazar]

Profit is not directly linked to volume. Look no further than Tesla's volume & lack of profit.

Lincoln's 2021 sales thru May is 45K units, on pace to deliver 108K this calendar year. That's up from last year (105K).

I'm sure every OEM would daydream about having 50% of the market, but profit is profit / a good business model.
I don't ever worry about how many model/calendar year sales a brand logs, what's important is the company is healthy/profitable; that drives the future. 

Is Daimler pleased selling 2 million plus units, or would they "be happier" selling 5 million units and double the profit? These are meaningless questions. 

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

If Lincoln resale value was good, quality and interiors are so good and the products are “world class” as Lincoln claims, then why aren’t they selling?  And they aren’t selling in the USA let alone getting beat 15-1 by any German brand in China and Lincoln not being a factor in Europe.

Pure deflection from what we were just discussing. Comment dismissed. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is over 500,000 last year, expected to hit 600,000 this year.

While making zero profit on them. Does this really have to be explained to you again?

[smk4565]

45 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Profit is not directly linked to volume. Look no further than Tesla's volume & lack of profit.

Lincoln's 2021 sales thru May is 45K units, on pace to deliver 108K this calendar year. That's up from last year (105K).

I'm sure every OEM would daydream about having 50% of the market, but profit is profit / a good business model.
I don't ever worry about how many model/calendar year sales a brand logs, what's important is the company is healthy/profitable; that drives the future. 

Is Daimler pleased selling 2 million plus units, or would they "be happier" selling 5 million units and double the profit? These are meaningless questions. 

But we don't know if the Lincoln brand turns profit.  5 years ago Ford was thinking of cancelling the brand.  What if they spend $1 billion on Lincoln EV's that don't sell?  Ford can't grow the brand without spending money on it.  And maybe Ford will spend the money and sales will go up and Lincoln will be a success, only time will tell.  But everyone here says Alfa Romeo loses money, but their global volume is about the same as Lincoln's.  So I don't see how Lincoln can be some profit machine while Alfa is a money loser, we will never know since they won't break out brand profits, but my guess is they are in similar situations.

And I am sure Mercedes or BMW or Audi would love to sell 5 million (if they had capacity to do so), every company wants growth and more revenue.

[smk4565]

17 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

While making zero profit on them. Does this really have to be explained to you again?

Can't make profit on 500,000 EV's a year, but Lincoln will make profit on 100,000 EV's a year?  

[surreal1272]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But we don't know if the Lincoln brand turns profit.  5 years ago Ford was thinking of cancelling the brand.  What if they spend $1 billion on Lincoln EV's that don't sell?  Ford can't grow the brand without spending money on it.  And maybe Ford will spend the money and sales will go up and Lincoln will be a success, only time will tell.  But everyone here says Alfa Romeo loses money, but their global volume is about the same as Lincoln's.  So I don't see how Lincoln can be some profit machine while Alfa is a money loser, we will never know since they won't break out brand profits, but my guess is they are in similar situations.

And I am sure Mercedes or BMW or Audi would love to sell 5 million (if they had capacity to do so), every company wants growth and more revenue.

Actually we do know. And Alfa lost money because Sergio is an idiot and no one wanted their piss poor built cars. 
https://manufacturingglobal.com/smart-manufacturing/ford-motor-company-reports-strong-2021-q1-results

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Can't make profit on 500,000 EV's a year, but Lincoln will make profit on 100,000 EV's a year?  

Yep they sure can because they have actual experience in mass producing cars without the countless quality issues still plaguing a newbie like Tesla. It’s not that hard to figure out unless you are just looking for any excuse to $h! on domestics. 
 

And just stop with the bar moving. As soon as you got called out over the depreciation of the GLS, you moved on to something else. Just stop it. 

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Can't make profit on 500,000 EV's a year, but Lincoln will make profit on 100,000 EV's a year?  

Tesla can’t even compete with Ford levels of quality. 
https://autos.yahoo.com/comparison-test-2021-ford-mustang-110000731.html

[balthazar]

46 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

everyone here says Alfa Romeo loses money, but their global volume is about the same as Lincoln's.  So I don't see how Lincoln can be some profit machine while Alfa is a money loser,

 

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Profit is not directly linked to volume.

 

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Can't make profit on 500,000 EV's a year, but Lincoln will make profit on 100,000 EV's a year?

 

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Profit is not directly linked to volume.

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by balthazar