Lincoln News: 2022 First BEV, All BEV by 2030 as Lincoln Celebrates it 100th Anniversary in 2022

[G. David Felt]

 

Mid-decade Lincoln expects half of all global production to be zero-emission vehicles with the goal to be 100%BEV globally by 2030. This is part of Ford Motor Companies plan to invest $30 billion in electrification by 2025. gm just upped their investment to $35 billion, time for Ford to up theirs?

Per Joy Falotico, President of Lincoln, "Electrification will take Quiet Flight to a new level with the smooth, exhilarating take-off feel and serene quietness our clients expect from a Lincoln." 

The company will move forward with all-new RWD and AWD battery electric flexible architecture that will enable Lincoln to deliver four new distinct BEVs. The first electric Lincoln will join the existing plug-in hybrid Aviator and Corsair SUVs in 2022 and is the start to be an all-electric brand by 2030.

To quote the Lincoln president, "Our clients deserve the very best from Lincoln. Our world-class vehicles, effortless services and advanced connected technology will allow us to create an always-on relationship with them and help transform the Lincoln brand for the future." The Lincoln Way app will be one way they will deliver an enhanced suite of connected services that will become the norm of the electrified future.

Quiet Flight DNA is the brand's evolving signature design and drive experience with maximized luxury comfort for all. Spacious interiors that create the ultimate expression of Lincoln sanctuary, a rejuvenating space with clever storage solutions, minimalistic panels, expansive panoramic vista roof to enhance the natural light in an airy open feel.

Lincoln is proud to off their coast-to-coast display that offers a sweeping view of the horizon, Lincoln's new digital design language. CONSTELLATION includes exclusive themes showcasing the night sky allowing clients to choose the theme that best reflects their current mood.

The Lincoln Enhanced Platform will feature over-the-air software updates quarterly keeping your navigation system on the cutting edge and in sync with your Apple or Android device via the SYNC 4-enabled system. Lincoln offers the Lincoln ActiveGlide for hands-free highway driving using advanced camera, radar and driver monitoring technologies.

“The space that surrounds you has an immense effect on your overall mood,” said Kemal Curic, design director, Lincoln. “Crafting a space that goes beyond the traditional – a serene sanctuary that elevates the senses and impacts a client’s mood every single day – reveals that as designers, we contribute so much more to the overall experience than just creating vehicles that look good.”

Highest sales satisfaction among luxury brands was recently bestowed on Lincoln by J.D. Power and Associates. The dealer network is key to delivering an effortless, connected experience for our Lincoln Clients. Today one third of Lincoln purchases are completed oinline through the Lincoln remote sales platform. Lincoln is continuing to integrate a complete digital experience online while backing it up with their global dealerships providing the ultimate in client services.

To Quote:

“Technology allows us to enhance the traditional transaction and make the ownership experience for our clients as convenient and effortless as possible,” said Michael Sprague, North America director, Lincoln. “Meeting clients on their terms is important today, and will be even more so in a digital, connected future.”

In North America, a focus on the top 130 luxury markets, Lincoln is growing their Lincoln-exclusive Vitrine dealerships. Simplifying the buying process, this experience moves away from the traditional transaction space to a modern experience centered around the client.

To date, 28 all-new Vitrin facilities, including Lincolns first boutique established in Arizona have opened across the country with another 50 in process.

Look for an upcoming reveal of the first of many Lincoln BEVs.

Lincoln Accelerates Brand Transformation; Plans to Deliver a Full Portfolio of Connected and Electrified Vehicles by 2030 | Lincoln Media Center

View full article

[smk4565]

To quote the Lincoln president, "Our clients deserve the very best from Lincoln. Our world-class vehicles, effortless services and advanced connected technology will allow us to create an always-on relationship with them and help transform the Lincoln brand for the future." 

Laughable that they think Lincoln builds "world class vehicles" 

It makes sense though to run Lincoln all EV, 9 years is still fairly far away and they are a low volume brand and not really competitive now, so might as well go a different direction.  Plus their model line is small, won't be hard to build 3 electric SUVs, and maybe 1 sedan but Ford seems not interested in sedans.  It isn't like they have to make a model line as diverse as Ford's all EV which would take much longer.  Plus I think by 2030, EV will be standard expectation in the luxury segment.

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

To quote the Lincoln president, "Our clients deserve the very best from Lincoln. Our world-class vehicles, effortless services and advanced connected technology will allow us to create an always-on relationship with them and help transform the Lincoln brand for the future." 

Laughable that they think Lincoln builds "world class vehicles" 

It makes sense though to run Lincoln all EV, 9 years is still fairly far away and they are a low volume brand and not really competitive now, so might as well go a different direction.  Plus their model line is small, won't be hard to build 3 electric SUVs, and maybe 1 sedan but Ford seems not interested in sedans.  It isn't like they have to make a model line as diverse as Ford's all EV which would take much longer.  Plus I think by 2030, EV will be standard expectation in the luxury segment.

Why is it laughable? If you believe in the product, you believe that those around you want the same quality of world class product, that is all it takes to start a move that way. No one would hire a president that only believes they build mediocre products.

While you believe that MB builds the best, plenty of people think otherwise and you know I see MB as just another competitor to GM from Chevrolet to Cadillac. MB is an entry level to mid to luxury level auto maker, They are the Toyota of German auto's on par with some models but better than VW, equal to BMW which is also another Chevrolet to Cadillac auto builder under a single name plate but with other problem step siblings. 

[ccap41]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

To quote the Lincoln president, "Our clients deserve the very best from Lincoln. Our world-class vehicles, effortless services and advanced connected technology will allow us to create an always-on relationship with them and help transform the Lincoln brand for the future." 

Laughable that they think Lincoln builds "world class vehicles" 

It makes sense though to run Lincoln all EV, 9 years is still fairly far away and they are a low volume brand and not really competitive now, so might as well go a different direction.  Plus their model line is small, won't be hard to build 3 electric SUVs, and maybe 1 sedan but Ford seems not interested in sedans.  It isn't like they have to make a model line as diverse as Ford's all EV which would take much longer.  Plus I think by 2030, EV will be standard expectation in the luxury segment.

Their current portfolio is extremely competitive with everything it their respective price range. They don't build race cars, they built true luxury cars. Quiet, comfortable, quality materials, pickup/drop off your vehicle for service.

[surreal1272]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Laughable that they think Lincoln builds "world class vehicles" 

What's laughable is expecting you to talk anything but pure $h! about yet another domestic. 

[G. David Felt]

On 6/21/2021 at 6:09 PM, smk4565 said:

To quote the Lincoln president, "Our clients deserve the very best from Lincoln. Our world-class vehicles, effortless services and advanced connected technology will allow us to create an always-on relationship with them and help transform the Lincoln brand for the future." 

Laughable that they think Lincoln builds "world class vehicles" 

It makes sense though to run Lincoln all EV, 9 years is still fairly far away and they are a low volume brand and not really competitive now, so might as well go a different direction.  Plus their model line is small, won't be hard to build 3 electric SUVs, and maybe 1 sedan but Ford seems not interested in sedans.  It isn't like they have to make a model line as diverse as Ford's all EV which would take much longer.  Plus I think by 2030, EV will be standard expectation in the luxury segment.

Mercedes-Benz is VERY LAUGHABLE, they only plan to have 6, SIX BEV on the global market by 2025 compared to 30 by GM, 8 by Ford, 100 by Stellantis, hell will just copy and past from the Tesla thread. Even BMW will have more BEVs than Mercedes-Benz according to their press releases and various news sources talking to them. Benz will have maybe 3 models by 2025 in the US.

According to the current released numbers, here is what each auto maker says they will have on the global market in BEVs by 2025 to 2030:

• Honda / Acura - Using GM Ultium batteries and powertrain - 2 in 2024, 8 by 2030
• BMW / Mini / Rolls Royce - 12 models by 2025, full lineup electric for all brands by 2030
• Ford / Lincoln - 8 models by 2025, all electric by 2035
• gm - Chevrolet/GMC/Buick/Cadillac - 30 models by 2025, world wide fully electric on all brands by 2035
• Volkswagen - 50 models by 2025, world wide fully electric by 2030
• Audi - 5 models by 2025, pure electric by 2035
• Bentley - 8 models by 2025, pure bev only by 2030
• Nissan - 12 models by 2025, electric only by 2035
• Toyota - 6 models by 2025, others as demand increases
• Subaru - 6 models by 2025, full hybrid in all product lines by 2035, possible all electric by 2050
• Hyundai/Kia/Genesis - 23 models by 2025
• Volvo - 8 models by 2025, all electric by 2030
• Mazda - 3 models by 2025, all electric by 2050
• Daimler/Mercedes-Benz/Smart - 6 models by 2025, electric only by 2040
• Mitsubishi - 6 models by 2025, all hybrid by 2025, pure electric by 2050
• Stellantis - 100 models by 2025, all electric by 2030
• Maserati - 6 models by 2025, all electric by by 2030
• Jaguar Land Rover - 12 models by 2025, electric only by 2035
• Tesla - 6 models by 2025 not including commercial products. Company pure EV already
• Rivian - 3 by 2025, future products undefined at this time
• Lordstown - 1 model by 2022, undefined for the future, latest legal problems could imply the company might close
• Lucid - 2 models by 2022, 5 by 2025, undefined past 2025 at this time
• Bollinger - 1 model in 2022, 3 by 2025, undefined past 2025
• Geely - New EV division of the parent company, to use their Sea EV Platform to produce 2 models by 2022, 6 models by 2025 with global sales.
• 100 pure electric start ups in China, what if any actually make it out of the country, but many choices across Asia.

[smk4565]

20 hours ago, David said:

Why is it laughable? If you believe in the product, you believe that those around you want the same quality of world class product, that is all it takes to start a move that way. No one would hire a president that only believes they build mediocre products.

While you believe that MB builds the best, plenty of people think otherwise and you know I see MB as just another competitor to GM from Chevrolet to Cadillac. MB is an entry level to mid to luxury level auto maker, They are the Toyota of German auto's on par with some models but better than VW, equal to BMW which is also another Chevrolet to Cadillac auto builder under a single name plate but with other problem step siblings. 

If you have to say "we build world class product" you are admitting you don't and trying to convince people otherwise.  The Corsair is a bottom feeder in it's segment just as the Escape is in its segment, the Nautilus is junk, the Aviator is mid-pack only because the Infiniti, Cadillac and Acura offerings in that segment are worse, and the Navigator lags behind the Germans and Escalade, and I suspect Lexus will get a version of the 2022 Land Cruiser which will be better too.

The same people that think Lincoln is world class, thought the Continental was going to be a serious competitor to the luxury segment, and 4 years later the car is dead because it didn't sell, even though it cost 50% of a German car of the same size.

11 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Their current portfolio is extremely competitive with everything it their respective price range. They don't build race cars, they built true luxury cars. Quiet, comfortable, quality materials, pickup/drop off your vehicle for service.

None of their portfolio is competitive with the 4 German brands, Land Rover, Genesis, or Lexus.  I would place Aviator over the MDX or XT6, but otherwise I'd put Cadillac or Acura offerings over Lincoln.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, David said:

Mercedes-Benz is VERY LAUGHABLE, they only plan to have 6, SIX BEV on the global market by 2025 compared to 30 by GM, 8 by Ford, 100 by Stellantis, hell will just copy and past from the Tesla thread. Even BMW will have more BEVs than Mercedes-Benz according to their press releases and various news sources talking to them. Benz will have maybe 3 models by 2025 in the US.

According to the current released numbers, here is what each auto maker says they will have on the global market in BEVs by 2025 to 2030:

• Honda / Acura - Using GM Ultium batteries and powertrain - 2 in 2024, 8 by 2030
• BMW / Mini / Rolls Royce - 12 models by 2025, full lineup electric for all brands by 2030
• Ford / Lincoln - 8 models by 2025, all electric by 2035
• gm - Chevrolet/GMC/Buick/Cadillac - 30 models by 2025, world wide fully electric on all brands by 2035
• Volkswagen - 50 models by 2025, world wide fully electric by 2030
• Audi - 5 models by 2025, pure electric by 2035
• Bentley - 8 models by 2025, pure bev only by 2030
• Nissan - 12 models by 2025, electric only by 2035
• Toyota - 6 models by 2025, others as demand increases
• Subaru - 6 models by 2025, full hybrid in all product lines by 2035, possible all electric by 2050
• Hyundai/Kia/Genesis - 23 models by 2025
• Volvo - 8 models by 2025, all electric by 2030
• Mazda - 3 models by 2025, all electric by 2050
• Daimler/Mercedes-Benz/Smart - 6 models by 2025, electric only by 2040
• Mitsubishi - 6 models by 2025, all hybrid by 2025, pure electric by 2050
• Stellantis - 100 models by 2025, all electric by 2030
• Maserati - 6 models by 2025, all electric by by 2030
• Jaguar Land Rover - 12 models by 2025, electric only by 2035
• Tesla - 6 models by 2025 not including commercial products. Company pure EV already
• Rivian - 3 by 2025, future products undefined at this time
• Lordstown - 1 model by 2022, undefined for the future, latest legal problems could imply the company might close
• Lucid - 2 models by 2022, 5 by 2025, undefined past 2025 at this time
• Bollinger - 1 model in 2022, 3 by 2025, undefined past 2025
• Geely - New EV division of the parent company, to use their Sea EV Platform to produce 2 models by 2022, 6 models by 2025 with global sales.
• 100 pure electric start ups in China, what if any actually make it out of the country, but many choices across Asia.

Mercedes has EQA, EQB, EQC electric SUV's either on sale now or will be in 2022 in Europe and China, which are all converts of the gas models.  EQS, EQE, EQE SUV, EQS SUV (dedicated EV platform) will be on sale by end of 2022.  So that's 7 right there. I don't know that they need more than 7 EV's when EV is still a small segment of the market, at least in the USA, maybe will be bigger in Europe or China.  And that is just in the next 18 months or so, by 2025 they'll have more than that.

[G. David Felt]

25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If you have to say "we build world class product" you are admitting you don't and trying to convince people otherwise.  The Corsair is a bottom feeder in it's segment just as the Escape is in its segment, the Nautilus is junk, the Aviator is mid-pack only because the Infiniti, Cadillac and Acura offerings in that segment are worse, and the Navigator lags behind the Germans and Escalade, and I suspect Lexus will get a version of the 2022 Land Cruiser which will be better too.

The same people that think Lincoln is world class, thought the Continental was going to be a serious competitor to the luxury segment, and 4 years later the car is dead because it didn't sell, even though it cost 50% of a German car of the same size.

None of their portfolio is competitive with the 4 German brands, Land Rover, Genesis, or Lexus.  I would place Aviator over the MDX or XT6, but otherwise I'd put Cadillac or Acura offerings over Lincoln.

How is that any different than MB with their Best of nothing statement? 

If they have to say they build the best, then it clearly IS NOT based on your line of thinking above. So the plastic over priced MB products are again as I stated, a Toyota equal product and questionable if they build some real luxury products as half the family and especially the vans are NOT LUXURY!

[G. David Felt]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes has EQA, EQB, EQC electric SUV's either on sale now or will be in 2022 in Europe and China, which are all converts of the gas models.  EQS, EQE, EQE SUV, EQS SUV (dedicated EV platform) will be on sale by end of 2022.  So that's 7 right there. I don't know that they need more than 7 EV's when EV is still a small segment of the market, at least in the USA, maybe will be bigger in Europe or China.  And that is just in the next 18 months or so, by 2025 they'll have more than that.

According to their press release, interviews, there is NO SCHEDULE for MB EVs in the US yet.

Mercedes-Benz's US rollout schedule for EVs still not announced - Electrek

Latest interview to quote:

Mercedes-Benz Production Manager Jörg Burzer told Automotive News Europe last week that the new S Class — and its electric sibling, the EQS — were “absolutely crucial for the future” of Daimler. He said it was a “top priority.”

Seems even the EQS is not really a equal size S-Class but more of a CLS class car.

The EQS is a “sibling” to the gas-powered S-Class, but its length will more likely match the Mercedes-Benz CLS. The electric powertrain can be more tightly packaged than a gas engine. That results in a size slotting between an E-Class and S-Class. Würth said:

Short overhangs and a long wheelbase make the car appear shorter, while the interior space is equivalent to an S-Class.

This speaks VOLUMES about MB FAILED ability to get EVs to the US market.

Now consider that still more Mercedes-Benz electric vehicles are in the pipeline with not-yet-announced timing. Würth said:

Delaying the EQC’s US launch was a strategic decision to support sales in other regions of the world, where the EQC had been introduced already. This is not related to the development of the EQS.

The next electric vehicles under the Mercedes-Benz EQ banner will be compact SUVs.

So no real luxury EVs, just compact mid cost BEVs sometime in the future. which makes the other news reports saying 3 BEVs by 2025 questionable as they are not committing to any release schedule for the US.

This is even more proven when they say late debute of the EQS in 2021 at dealerships. Sign up for details in the future. This pretty much says they are not committing to anything in the near future and one would have to question the near years.

2022 EQS Sedan | Future Vehicles | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com)

Even their detailed EQ web page for the US market does not commit to any EVs in the near term.

Mercedes-EQ | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com)

Even from this 2020 story, there are no updates, nothing to give any credible statement to when MB might actually start building let alone selling EVs in the US.

Mercedes-Benz launches $1.65bn plan to expand electric vehicle battery production (thedriven.io)

This news story even lends credibility to the fact that MB will not have BEVs till maybe 2023 in the US as 2022 is when they move into their new Battery and BEV parts buildings in Alabama.

New $54M parts facility will boost Mercedes EV production in Alabama (madeinalabama.com)

As such, that would imply time to setup production, run tests and get things worked out with the local work force before they can start building and shipping BEVs. 

At best, I would expect 3 BEVs by 2025.

[smk4565]

3 minutes ago, David said:

How is that any different than MB with their Best of nothing statement? 

If they have to say they build the best, then it clearly IS NOT based on your line of thinking above. So the plastic over priced MB products are again as I stated, a Toyota equal product and questionable if they build some real luxury products as half the family and especially the vans are NOT LUXURY!

Because Gottlieb Daimler 125 ago had the motto "the best or nothing," and they honor that to this day.

The G-wagon was the fastest selling vehicle in the USA in May, and at an average ATP of $174,700.  I don't see many Toyota's selling for $174k, or Lexus for that matter.  I don't see Lincoln selling Navigators at $174k, why not?  They want to be "world class" then step up to the plate.

The vans aren't luxury, they are commercial vehicles, Mercedes markets them that way as well.   They aren't even sold though the same dealership network as their cars, nor are they even part of the same business unit as their cars.

[surreal1272]

47 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If you have to say "we build world class product" you are admitting you don't and trying to convince people otherwise.

Big talk for a fan of the “Best or Nothing” brand. 

[G. David Felt]

BACK TO LINCOLN DISCUSSION

Seems the Nautilus is a one and done as Ford has committed a long term deal to Oakville in Canada to build BEVs and the Nautilus built there in ICE form is to be replaced by a new BEV.

Oakville to Build Electric Lincoln Corsair By 2026: Report - The News Wheel

According to this story and interview with Lincoln Executives, beside multiple BEV SUVs, they will also have a BEV car based on the Lincoln Zephyr Reflection Concept.

Lincoln’s first EV will arrive in 2022 with three more to follow | TechCrunch

[surreal1272]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The G-wagon was the fastest selling vehicle in the USA in May, and at an average ATP of $174,700.  I don't see many Toyota's selling for $174k, or Lexus for that matter.  I don't see Lincoln selling Navigators at $174k, why not?  They want to be "world class" then step up to the plate.

Oh shut up with the high price=luxury nonsense. Skip the part where the G Wagon is that expensive because it’s low volume AND hand built. Skip the fact that the Navigator is routinely reviewed as being better than even the current Escalade, which has been continually handing Benz its ass in sales for years now. Skip the fact that Benz is higher priced in general (despite their lower then Cadillac ATP) because they are imports here. See where this is going yet? Just put the damn Pom poms down. 
 

I guess, based on your logic, that a G Wagon is not stepping up to the luxury SUV game itself when there are others that cost $100K MORE. That’s why your price argument is just dumb. 
 

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

3 minutes ago, David said:

According to their press release, interviews, there is NO SCHEDULE for MB EVs in the US yet.

Mercedes-Benz's US rollout schedule for EVs still not announced - Electrek

Latest interview to quote:

Mercedes-Benz Production Manager Jörg Burzer told Automotive News Europe last week that the new S Class — and its electric sibling, the EQS — were “absolutely crucial for the future” of Daimler. He said it was a “top priority.”

Seems even the EQS is not really a equal size S-Class but more of a CLS class car.

The EQS is a “sibling” to the gas-powered S-Class, but its length will more likely match the Mercedes-Benz CLS. The electric powertrain can be more tightly packaged than a gas engine. That results in a size slotting between an E-Class and S-Class. Würth said:

Short overhangs and a long wheelbase make the car appear shorter, while the interior space is equivalent to an S-Class.

This speaks VOLUMES about MB FAILED ability to get EVs to the US market.

Now consider that still more Mercedes-Benz electric vehicles are in the pipeline with not-yet-announced timing. Würth said:

Delaying the EQC’s US launch was a strategic decision to support sales in other regions of the world, where the EQC had been introduced already. This is not related to the development of the EQS.

The next electric vehicles under the Mercedes-Benz EQ banner will be compact SUVs.

So no real luxury EVs, just compact mid cost BEVs sometime in the future. which makes the other news reports saying 3 BEVs by 2025 questionable as they are not committing to any release schedule for the US.

This is even more proven when they say late debute of the EQS in 2021 at dealerships. Sign up for details in the future. This pretty much says they are not committing to anything in the near future and one would have to question the near years.

2022 EQS Sedan | Future Vehicles | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com)

Even their detailed EQ web page for the US market does not commit to any EVs in the near term.

Mercedes-EQ | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com)

Even from this 2020 story, there are no updates, nothing to give any credible statement to when MB might actually start building let alone selling EVs in the US.

Mercedes-Benz launches $1.65bn plan to expand electric vehicle battery production (thedriven.io)

This news story even lends credibility to the fact that MB will not have BEVs till maybe 2023 in the US as 2022 is when they move into their new Battery and BEV parts buildings in Alabama.

New $54M parts facility will boost Mercedes EV production in Alabama (madeinalabama.com)

As such, that would imply time to setup production, run tests and get things worked out with the local work force before they can start building and shipping BEVs. 

At best, I would expect 3 BEVs by 2025.

The EQS is 207 inches long, the S-class is 208, not sure that that guy is talking about.

There is 3 final product and 4 that are late in development that will be ready in 2022.    I hope Lincoln goes from their 4 vehicle lineup, to adding 7 EV's in the next 2 years to keep up.   And by the 2030s all the luxury brands will be mostly EV if not all EV, and the same brand that sold the most gasoline cars will sell the most EV's.  

 

[smk4565]

23 minutes ago, David said:

BACK TO LINCOLN DISCUSSION

Seems the Nautilus is a one and done as Ford has committed a long term deal to Oakville in Canada to build BEVs and the Nautilus built there in ICE form is to be replaced by a new BEV.

Oakville to Build Electric Lincoln Corsair By 2026: Report - The News Wheel

According to this story and interview with Lincoln Executives, beside multiple BEV SUVs, they will also have a BEV car based on the Lincoln Zephyr Reflection Concept.

Lincoln’s first EV will arrive in 2022 with three more to follow | TechCrunch

The Edge and Nautilus are both supposed to die after the 2022 model year I think, 2023 at the latest.  And there won't be a replacement for either, I guess Ford figures Escape, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Explorer, Mach-E has them pretty much covered and they don't need the Edge, thus Lincoln loses their version.  

I assume Lincoln gets some version of the Mach-E, and later a larger electric SUV, like Aviator size.  While I like sedans (and hate this make everything a crossover trend), the Zypher won't sell, it will be Continental 2.0. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The vans aren't luxury, they are commercial vehicles, Mercedes markets them that way as well.   They aren't even sold though the same dealership network as their cars

One of the largest Mercedes (& other euro 'lux' brand) mega-dealers in my state lines a row of refrigerator-white cargo vans next to e- and s-class cars on the front line of their lot. They absolutely are sold via the same dealerships. Daimler bungled that opportunity royally, but that's old news.

[oldshurst442]

I didnt want to respond in this now derailed thread...

Yet again, the bullshyte arises...

@smk4565

The PHOQUE are you talking about?

Mercedes Benz West-Island.   West of the Island of Montreal...

Google maps.  Just click on the link....

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4848789,-73.8465411,3a,30.4y,25.29h,91.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sufnCpBfbldHYWCcHUt0b0Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US

 

Mercedes Rive-Sud   South Shore borough just south of the Island of Montreal. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4833736,-73.465463,3a,47.4y,282.53h,89.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5jEcQOWJrypmtzLG49__qQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US

 

Mercedes Laval.  Just to the north of the island of Montreal.   Laval is a city-suburb of Montreal on another island RIGHT ABOVE Montreal...

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5718446,-73.7606766,3a,15y,212.39h,90.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sb4tWRSpcbsmTBz0IAq8lWA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US

 

Older pic I think the one in Laval...and the one in Laval has a specific and separate area for the vans...  Centre des Fourgons . Fourgons is short for fourgonette which is French for mini-van.  Mini-van center...  But there are 2 vans in front of the MAIN entrance front and center...

It doesnt matter...the Google car captured all 3 locations, (there are others in and around Montreal...I just dont feel like posting ALL locations...) where the Mercedes vans are sold FRONT AND CENTER at the dealership where Maybach S Class versions are sold...  The funny thing is that at the West Island location...the vans are  presented outside under an AMG banner sign...  LMFAO  ?????

3 different locations on 3 different days...a google car captured and proved SMK wrong...  LMFAO  ?????

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

One of the largest Mercedes (& other euro 'lux' brand) mega-dealers in my state lines a row of refrigerator-white cargo vans next to e- and s-class cars on the front line of their lot. They absolutely are sold via the same dealerships. Daimler bungled that opportunity royally, but that's old news.

He has tried to pass off that BS before while forgetting that folks here have eyes. I know for a fact that the largest Benz dealership had vans right next to their cars and I showed him pictures of this. He also wants to sidestep the fact that he is using those SAME VANS to tout Benz overall sales figures while dismissing those same vans because they being down the ATP of Benz. It’s just regular misguided fanboy logic, no matter how he tried to paint it. 

@smk4565—This BS stops today. Here is a current street view shot of Mercedes Benz at Arrowhead (Peoria, AZ). Take a good long look at their inventory and then apologize for your obvious yet oft repeated mistake. 

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

While I like sedans (and hate this make everything a crossover trend), the Zypher won't sell, it will be Continental 2.0. 

Yet you seem to think the EQS SEDAN will sell well because….

[surreal1272]

Outside of the Zephyr, Lincoln seems to have a good plan together and they will need to hit all the marks because it is a big gamble given their current “volume”. Now is the time to do it though because they have shown that they are finally ready to get serious again about the luxury market, with strong offerings like the new Navigator and the Aviator. 

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

None of their portfolio is competitive with the 4 German brands, Land Rover, Genesis, or Lexus.  I would place Aviator over the MDX or XT6, but otherwise I'd put Cadillac or Acura offerings over Lincoln.

I don't think you've read a single Lincoln review, let alone sat in one. 

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The G-wagon

You'd think a fanboy such as yourself would know it's  "G-wagen". 

[ccap41]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The EQS is 207 inches long, the S-class is 208, not sure that that guy is talking about.

There is 3 final product and 4 that are late in development that will be ready in 2022.    I hope Lincoln goes from their 4 vehicle lineup, to adding 7 EV's in the next 2 years to keep up.   And by the 2030s all the luxury brands will be mostly EV if not all EV, and the same brand that sold the most gasoline cars will sell the most EV's.  

 

That's an ugly slew of vehicles. Maybe they should stick with ICE. 

[ccap41]

This is the Benz dealer in which my wife's G-wagen has been for two months now because their "best or nothing" technicians can't fix the vehicle.  I could go on a tirade about that elsewhere.

Check this out, they're displaying a Silverado up front!

And they also have a slew of work vans and back by the service center is about ten of the vans converted to small motor homes or just vans for humans instead of cargo.

[G. David Felt]

So here just north of me off Highway 99 is the Lynnwood Benz dealership and I see far more vans out front than cars or SUVs.

 

 

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Outside of the Zephyr, Lincoln seems to have a good plan together and they will need to hit all the marks because it is a big gamble given their current “volume”. Now is the time to do it though because they have shown that they are finally ready to get serious again about the luxury market, with strong offerings like the new Navigator and the Aviator. 

I agree that NOW is the time for Lincoln to step it up with their BEV roll out of Luxury auto's.

While you and everyone knows I love my SUVs and Trucks, I am honestly EXCITED that they will have the Zephyr BEV for those that still want a car. Smart to still have an option so that they do not push away potential buyers.

[surreal1272]

51 minutes ago, David said:

While you and everyone knows I love my SUVs and Trucks, I am honestly EXCITED that they will have the Zephyr BEV for those that still want a car. Smart to still have an option so that they do not push away potential buyers.

I want the Zephyr to succeed but history does not suggest it, is my concern here. Ev or not, luxury folks just won't give the domestics a second look when comes to sedans, outside of the Tesla cult. That could change and I hope it does but I just don't see it currently.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, David said:

While you and everyone knows I love my SUVs and Trucks, I am honestly EXCITED that they will have the Zephyr BEV for those that still want a car. Smart to still have an option so that they do not push away potential buyers.

While I, personally, don't really care if they offer a car or not, there really are still plenty of people who want cars. I'm in a couple Lincoln Facebook pages and there are quite a few who still want cars and want to upgrade from their Continental or MKZ to a new one but they don't exist. 

[smk4565]

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

One of the largest Mercedes (& other euro 'lux' brand) mega-dealers in my state lines a row of refrigerator-white cargo vans next to e- and s-class cars on the front line of their lot. They absolutely are sold via the same dealerships. Daimler bungled that opportunity royally, but that's old news.

It could be in the same dealer, the same way Chevrolet and Cadillac can be in the same dealership, but they are separate brands/dealer contracts.  Not all Mercedes dealers can sell vans, there are 3 in Pittsburgh, only 1 has vans.

10 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Yet you seem to think the EQS SEDAN will sell well because….

Because Mercedes sells more $100k+ cars than anyone else in the world.  Their customer base shops in that price bracket, and they have a big customer base.

[smk4565]

9 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think you've read a single Lincoln review, let alone sat in one. 

You'd think a fanboy such as yourself would know it's  "G-wagen". 

What Lincoln is class leading or even top 3?   Aren't they like the 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA?  And probably not even top 10 globally.

[balthazar]

^ :shrug:
 

These 2 took me like 6 secs to find.
 

[G. David Felt]

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It could be in the same dealer, the same way Chevrolet and Cadillac can be in the same dealership, but they are separate brands/dealer contracts.  Not all Mercedes dealers can sell vans, there are 3 in Pittsburgh, only 1 has vans.

Are you positive and can you prove that not all Mercedes dealers can sell vans? Seems the dedicated web site states any Mercedes dealership can sell/service from their van portfolio and to use their search tool to find a van in stock at select dealers.

Home Page | Mercedes-Benz Vans (mbvans.com)

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I want the Zephyr to succeed but history does not suggest it, is my concern here. Ev or not, luxury folks just won't give the domestics a second look when comes to sedans, outside of the Tesla cult. That could change and I hope it does but I just don't see it currently.

This is true, but look at the early 2000s Continental, the LS, MKZ, MKS, reborn Continental, all of those cars were bad.   Who is going to give them a chance after 20 years of bad cars, and Genesis wasn't even around for most of that, and the new G80 is a strong competitor.

9 minutes ago, David said:

Are you positive and can you prove that not all Mercedes dealers can sell vans? Seems the dedicated web site states any Mercedes dealership can sell/service from their van portfolio and to use their search tool to find a van in stock at select dealers.

Home Page | Mercedes-Benz Vans (mbvans.com)

The dealer I go to for service does not sell vans.  

https://www.bobbyrahalmotorcar.com

[G. David Felt]

43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

This is true, but look at the early 2000s Continental, the LS, MKZ, MKS, reborn Continental, all of those cars were bad.   Who is going to give them a chance after 20 years of bad cars, and Genesis wasn't even around for most of that, and the new G80 is a strong competitor.

The dealer I go to for service does not sell vans.  

https://www.bobbyrahalmotorcar.com

Your missing the POINT

MB does not state that the dealers cannot sell. The web site says any dealer can sell a van, use their search tool to find a dealer with vans in stock.  Not all dealers stock vans, but that does not mean they cannot sell them and Daimler / MB does not keep them from selling it. No where on their parent web site, MB global site or MBUSA does it say it is a special dealership requirement to sell the company vans.

MBUSA and MB global says not all dealers stock everything they produce. Use the search tool to find a dealer with the product your interested in, in stock. 

This is the same way with pretty much any auto company unless they clearly state that a certain product line requires a special dealership.

Common sense.

Want to prove me wrong, then POINT ME AND EVERYONE HERE TO THE ACTUAL REQUIREMENT on DAIMLER / Mercedes-Benz web sites!

[smk4565]

7 minutes ago, David said:

Your missing the POINT

MB does not state that the dealers cannot sell. The web site says any dealer can sell a van, use their search tool to find a dealer with vans in stock.  Not all dealers stock vans, but that does not mean they cannot sell them and Daimler / MB does not keep them from selling it. No where on their parent web site, MB global site or MBUSA does it say it is a special dealership requirement to sell the company vans.

MBUSA and MB global says not all dealers stock everything they produce. Use the search tool to find a dealer with the product your interested in, in stock. 

This is the same way with pretty much any auto company unless they clearly state that a certain product line requires a special dealership.

Common sense.

Want to prove me wrong, then POINT ME AND EVERYONE HERE TO THE ACTUAL REQUIREMENT on DAIMLER / Mercedes-Benz web sites!

289 Mercedes Vans dealers in North America, and 383 Car dealers in North America.  So they don't all sell vans.  Maybe Vans requires something special that those other 100 dealers choose not to invest in.  

Also who cares if they sell commercial cans where they sell cars, they sell Corvettes next to $15k Sparks and Express work vans, no one says they aren't going to buy a Corvette because the dealer sells a work van.   

[balthazar]

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So they don't all sell vans.

No; just 75% of all dealers do.

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

they sell Corvettes next to $15k Sparks and Express work vans, no one says they aren't going to buy a Corvette because the dealer sells a work van.

So… mercedes is doing the same thing Chevrolet is. Got it.
Because BTW; not all Chevy dealers sell Express work vans, too. ?

Edited June 24, 2021 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It could be in the same dealer, the same way Chevrolet and Cadillac can be in the same dealership, but they are separate brands/dealer contracts.  Not all Mercedes dealers can sell vans, there are 3 in Pittsburgh, only 1 has vans.

Your denial is astounding. For the record, all three Phoenix AZ dealerships sell vans right alongside their “luxury” cars. The one in my hometown in NC also sells them side by side. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Because Mercedes sells more $100k+ cars than anyone else in the world.  Their customer base shops in that price bracket, and they have a big customer base.

And that has zero bearing on whether the EQS will sell well. ZERO bearing. BTW, they would have a bigger base if it was a CUV/SUV instead of a sedan that already looks ten years old on the outside. 
 

And preaching the $100K defense rings a little hollow when the ATP is, again, lower than Cadillac and their one $100K model. 

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

289 Mercedes Vans dealers in North America, and 383 Car dealers in North America.  So they don't all sell vans.  

Yet you were just on here acting like it was only a minority of dealers doing this. How’d that blond assumption work out for you? 
 

Sorry but your entire defense of them while trolling yet another domestic thread is just old, dumb, and full of basic lies. Just sit this one out. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The dealer I go to for service does not sell vans.

Don’t worry. As it was already pointed out to you, 75% of them do. 

47 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Also who cares if they sell commercial cans where they sell cars, they sell Corvettes next to $15k Sparks and Express work vans, no one says they aren't going to buy a Corvette because the dealer sells a work van.

But I thought this was the best or nothing? They are not supposed to be like GM and Chevy. This is a luxury make selling work vans on the same lot, a pass you sure as $h! would not let Cadillac have if Chevy Sparks were sold right next to Escalades. Save the fake outrage and “who cares” defense because clearly you did care, as evidenced by your nonstop defense of an obvious lie. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Who is going to give them a chance after 20 years of bad cars

Plenty of folks gave the Germans a free pass on decades of automotive $h!. Lincoln can do it too. 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Your denial is astounding. For the record, all three Phoenix AZ dealerships sell vans right alongside their “luxury” cars. The one in my hometown in NC also sells them side by side. 

Doesn't bother me if 100% of Mercedes dealers sell vans.  If the dealership wants to get the license to sell both that is their choice.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

And that has zero bearing on whether the EQS will sell well. ZERO bearing. BTW, they would have a bigger base if it was a CUV/SUV instead of a sedan that already looks ten years old on the outside. 
 

And preaching the $100K defense rings a little hollow when the ATP is, again, lower than Cadillac and their one $100K model. 

Yet you were just on here acting like it was only a minority of dealers doing this. How’d that blond assumption work out for you? 
 

Sorry but your entire defense of them while trolling yet another domestic thread is just old, dumb, and full of basic lies. Just sit this one out. 

I don't care about brand ATP, because brands with small lines or crappy selling entry level cars have high ATP.  Maserati and Alfa Romeo have the 2 best ATP's at FCA, maybe FCA should kill Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep and focus on their high ATP brands are.  But oh wait, everyone hear says Maserati and Alfa Romeo lose money.

EQS is a $100k+ car, Mercedes has had success selling cars above $100k, they have the largest luxury car owner base in the world.  They aren't going into any new price category or going above what their current base buys.  EQS will do well in China and Europe, it should do okay here, I think since gas is cheap the S-class will sell much better.  

As far as Lincoln goes, every sedan they made in the past 10 years has bombed, and all of them started under $50k.  People aren't going to pay $70-80k or more on a Lincoln sedan.  And here are Lincoln sales in China, under 40k units last year, bank to bank 15% declines, when BMW, Mercedes and Audi did 610k, 640k, and 655k respectively (and all 3 are on pace to top 700k units this year).  The other luxury brands have a global base to sell to, Lincoln does not, mostly just American and they don't do so well in America either.

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by smk4565

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

This is true, but look at the early 2000s Continental, the LS, MKZ, MKS, reborn Continental, all of those cars were bad.   Who is going to give them a chance after 20 years of bad cars, and Genesis wasn't even around for most of that, and the new G80 is a strong competitor.

The dealer I go to for service does not sell vans.  

https://www.bobbyrahalmotorcar.com

But the Point is ALL MB Dealers CAN SELL VANS even if they do not stock them! So YOUR Dealer DOES Sell Vans if they want, but they choose not too.

If a person came in to YOUR dealership and asked to buy a Van, I am sure the dealership would work with them to sell it as the official web site states. All Dealers can sell and service vans.

28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Doesn't bother me if 100% of Mercedes dealers sell vans.  If the dealership wants to get the license to sell both that is their choice.

There is NO LICENSE required to Sell Vans per MB Web Site. Where does it say they have to have a special license or franchise to sell vans?

Any Dealer can sell and service the vans, only 75% CHOOSE to stock them and sell them.

Clearly it bothers you BIG TIME as you are here ATTEMPTING to Justify the whole VAN thing at MB.

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So AGAIN, NO LINK, NO CLEAR EVIDENCE, What is this chart, Sales of Smarts? Sales of S-Class?

You have been asked, posts the links, clearly state the facts. 

Please stop drinking the Kool-Aid as you clearly are having challenges expressing yourself clearly through style, diction and formulation of your thoughts. 

[surreal1272]

58 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Doesn't bother me if 100% of Mercedes dealers sell vans.  If the dealership wants to get the license to sell both that is their choice.

Of course it doesn’t bother you. Why else would spend a page defending it even after denying the practice of them selling vans beside their cars existed in the first place? Sell that bull$h! to someone else. 

[smk4565]

1 minute ago, David said:

But the Point is ALL MB Dealers CAN SELL VANS even if they do not stock them! So YOUR Dealer DOES Sell Vans if they want, but they choose not too.

If a person came in to YOUR dealership and asked to buy a Van, I am sure the dealership would work with them to sell it as the official web site states. All Dealers can sell and service vans.

There is NO LICENSE required to Sell Vans per MB Web Site. Where does it say they have to have a special license or franchise to sell vans?

Any Dealer can sell and service the vans, only 75% CHOOSE to stock them and sell them.

Clearly it bothers you BIG TIME as you are here ATTEMPTING to Justify the whole VAN thing at MB.

So AGAIN, NO LINK, NO CLEAR EVIDENCE, What is this chart, Sales of Smarts? Sales of S-Class?

You have been asked, posts the links, clearly state the facts. 

Please stop drinking the Kool-Aid as you clearly are having challenges expressing yourself clearly through style, diction and formulation of your thoughts. 

They have to have a franchise agreement to sell vans, just as there were franchise agreements for Sprinter, Smart and Maybach.  

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50749503e4b0fa0ffd4b65f5/t/56142bd2e4b0e26258e39c6c/1444162514216/BrandStandards_08.20.15.pdf

Notice there are Passenger Car AND Light Truck Franchise AgreementS.  Obviously 289 dealers got both franchises, some did not.  Just like some Mercedes dealers has Smart franchises while others did not.  In fact in Pittsburgh  Bobby Rahal owns 2 Mercedes dealers, only 1 of them had the Smart brand.

 

[smk4565]

Lincoln sales volume in China:

https://carsalesbase.com/china-lincoln/

And Audi sales in China:

https://carsalesbase.com/china-audi/

That is Audi outselling Lincoln by over 16 to 1 in China last year, and Audi is on pace for 750,000 sales this year.  "World Class" doesn't get outsold 16 to 1 in the largest car market in the world and not even participate in the EU.  

[balthazar]

It's not like it's some sort of 'special privilege' or anything to sell work vans. All a 'franchise' is, is a legal agreement between a dealer & the OEM. Sometimes the OEM offers one to a dealer, sometimes a dealer requests the new brand. It's not a big deal.

And with the vast majority of dealers selling mercedes passenger vehicles also selling mercedes-branded work vans, that much is obvious.

Edited June 24, 2021 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They have to have a franchise agreement to sell vans, just as there were franchise agreements for Sprinter, Smart and Maybach.  

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50749503e4b0fa0ffd4b65f5/t/56142bd2e4b0e26258e39c6c/1444162514216/BrandStandards_08.20.15.pdf

Notice there are Passenger Car AND Light Truck Franchise AgreementS.  Obviously 289 dealers got both franchises, some did not.  Just like some Mercedes dealers has Smart franchises while others did not.  In fact in Pittsburgh  Bobby Rahal owns 2 Mercedes dealers, only 1 of them had the Smart brand.

 

So there is a Franchise to sell commercial Sprinter Vans. 

Per your 6 year old document, I have to assume there must be a newer one, but then only the commercial Sprinter van is called out, not the lowly passenger vans MB sells.

Reviewing the web site, I see they moved the Metris passenger van under the commercial franchise. So selling is under the franchise. 

Service is still possible at all the dealers as this 2015 document you pointed to, thank you, does not say that a dealer cannot work on the vans without a franchise agreement, only sell.

[surreal1272]

How in the Sam hell did we go from Lincoln to MB vans? 
 

Lincoln. That’s the subject here. If he wants to continue his stupid defense of German vans, let him start his own thread (which is something I’ve never seen him do regarding his pet brand). It is the same wash, rinse, repeat nonsense with him and his blind fanboy love of all things German. He hasn’t learned a damn thing here and has never cared to learn anything that may put his pet brand in a negative light. Quite honestly, F him at this point (and yes I made it personal. Sue me). 
 

Lincoln BEVs: Anything else to add here?

 

BTW @smk4565-Sales does not equate to world class. Rolls Royce and Bentley both sell far less than the numbers you posted above. By your fanboy logic, they are not world class either. There. Done.

Edited June 24, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

What Lincoln is class leading or even top 3?   Aren't they like the 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA?  And probably not even top 10 globally.

There's zero reason to try and explain because you're instantly going to jump on the sales numbers so you can read some reviews for yourself. 

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

... reborn Continental, all of those cars were bad.

The new Continental was far from bad. It was the HUGE step forward that Lincoln needed. It was the first Lincoln in decades to get it's own bespoke engine and they were no longer using Ford switchgear inside. It also had, arguably, the best seats in the industry. 

I'd say it was 9/10 baked. It needed a little more refinement but it was far from bad. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by ccap41

[ccap41]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

EQS is a $100k+ car, Mercedes has had success selling cars above $100k, they have the largest luxury car owner base in the world.

Unfortunately, it's a hideous vehicle, especially when you have the beautiful S Class on the same lot.