Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[oldshurst442]

Oozing with style.  

Styled like its 1999

1999

2009

 

And a glimpse of the wildly hopeful and awesome future that Mercedes will sell us.  Meant for kings of kings. 

 

[oldshurst442]

This thread is asking if competition is going to destroy Tesla.

Ive answered this before in this thread. And the answer remains the same:

 

CERTAINLY NOT FROM MERCEDES!!! 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565—-And it should be noted that while Cadillac is at zero EVs, they are not the only game in GMs stable. The Hummer EV is already out and it competes on a luxury level and GM has two others that have been out in the Bolt twins. Since you want to count Mercedes as a whole, it was only fair to do the same with GM. Oh and go ahead and add the Mach-E being out long before any SUV from Mercedes. 

Since @smk is adding the whole stable of Mercedes, then we might as well throw in all the EVs GM has been selling in China that Mercedes only recently had one to sell.

[riviera74]

The competition might break Tesla, but the real questions are Who and How?  Is Tesla only competitive in the USA, or Europe and China too?  Which luxury make will drive Tesla sales down in the next five years?  We will have to wait and see . . . .

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565--I am not going to keep going in circles with you but here are the facts. YES, they are late. They decided to put out not one, but TWO EV sedans out before even mentioning the SUV that won't come until late this year. Meanwhile, Cadillac at least had the good sense to put out an EV SUV first before considering any sedans, being that they are lower marketshare rides. Remember when you constantly whined about GM and Cadillac specially not having enough SUVs? Remember saying EXACTLY that? Well, Cadillac has one EV SUV coming out next months while Benz will have ZERO by then and it will do it for HALF THE PRICE (est. price off the EQS SUV is pegged at $114K). Like I said, late to the game.

I don’t think a matter of months is that important.  The Lyric goes on sale this spring, the EQS SUV this summer and they have EQB SUV later this year in the US (already on sale in Europe) and the EQE SUV which is the Lyric competition next year.  That’s 5 EV’s within the next year, 3 are SUV, and more coming after that.

Audi has 2 electric EV’s now plus sport back versions of both, if you can get one since their supply chain is way messed up.

What matters is how fast these companies can bring new product and if they can actually keep their production line running.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565—-And it should be noted that while Cadillac is at zero EVs, they are not the only game in GMs stable. The Hummer EV is already out and it competes on a luxury level and GM has two others that have been out in the Bolt twins. Since you want to count Mercedes as a whole, it was only fair to do the same with GM. Oh and go ahead and add the Mach-E being out long before any SUV from Mercedes. 

I think GM has a chance to do well in EV, if they can deliver on things like the Equinox EV and other vehicles that are more affordable than Tesla's.  The Hummer gets like a 40 MPGe, it is grossly inefficient for an EV, but it is a niche vehicle, so it doesn't really matter, it will have a small market of buyers but a that price point will turn profit.  

The Bolt is a weak seller, that is going to do any damage on the sales chart.   The Bolt was down 96% in Q1 this year, they aren't even building them because they catch fire.  If GM goes right at Tesla, they are screwed.  But if they go where Tesla isn't then I think GM can gain some traction.  

I am less optimistic about Ford, because The Mach-E was aimed at the Model Y, it priced cheaper and still gets outsold by the Tesla.  And the Mach-E trying to be performance SUV is a niche thing.  Ford has to put out electric Escpape and Explorer type SUVs that can deliver on cargo space, fit adults and have a decent price.  Ford is quite strong in pick up trucks and vans, especially with commercial buyers.  But Ford's SUV business has been declining as Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Kia and Subaru have grown in the past 10-20 years.  

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

This thread is asking if competition is going to destroy Tesla.

Ive answered this before in this thread. And the answer remains the same:

 

CERTAINLY NOT FROM MERCEDES!!! 

Why not Mercedes?  In 2024 they will have more EV models for sale than Tesla, and Mercedes has brand name too.  Mercedes outsells Tesla 2 to 1 right now world wide.  Tesla had $54 billion in revenue last year with $5.5 billion in profit.  Mercedes-Benz had revenue of $185 billion and profit of $25 billion, although $13 billion of that is from splitting off the truck division.  

The problem GM and Ford have is you can't price a Chevy or Ford SUV against a Tesla, no one is paying Tesla money for a Chevrolet crossover, when current Chevy crossover sales are tanking, Buick sales down 58% in Q1, probably supply chain issues, but if there was demand for those, GM would allocate resources there, and they obviously didn't.

Where the opportunity exists is the Tesla Model Y has a base price of $63k and the Model 3 at $47k.   There are a lot of customers who want an electric car and can't afford $47k or $63k, there is a massive untapped market that GM can hit with their $30k EV-quinox and their maybe $45k Blazer EV.  Lots of white space under $50k price point for EV's.  Then the question is does GM take over this space, or does Toyota, Hyundai, Kia get in there and gain ground, or does a Chinese car company come in.

[balthazar]

mercedes has ceded an entire decade to Tesla in the EV segment- a decade they may never earn back. 
 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes outsells Tesla 2 to 1 right now world wide.

And Tesla outsells mercedes in EVs about 21 to 1 right now.

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Why not Mercedes?

Mercedes lacks in 2 key areas.

1. Style.  And that is saying a lot.   LOL  

2. Tech.  Mercedes is at least 10 years behind Tesla in software, motor and battery tech. 

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 In 2024 they will have more EV models for sale than Tesla,

Means nothing when Mercedes EV will be languishing on dealership floors.   Once GM gets their EVs going, Mercedes will not stand a chance not only against Tesla, but GM too.  LOL.

Lucid will be cleaning Mercedes clock in 2024.  LOL  

The Lucid Air is easily besting the EQS in EVERY metric. LOL 

 

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

and Mercedes has brand name too.

You keep on saying that.  But its simply not true.   Not for EVs...

Tesla is STILL considered THE benchmark in the who's who in automotive world.  And nobody is impressed with Mercedes' EVs.  Its sad when the automotive world still praise Tesla's EVs over Mercedes' offerings.

But you know what?

The Lucid Air, GMC Hummer, Ford Mach E and  Rivian R1T all have made the automotive world giggle, raise eyebrows and actually envision a world where these offerings could not only co-exist with Tesla EVs, but actually take the crown AWAY from Tesla EVs in many categories.  

Even the Hyundai Ioniq 5 has managed to raise eyebrows and put the spotlight AWAY from the Tesla Model 3.  No. Not in speed, but for excellent day to day EV livability with absolutely NO compromises as we have been accustomed to when we speak of Tesla EVs.  

Mercedes' offerings not only fall waaaaay short comparing them to Teslas, but Mercedes EQS falls short with the Lucid Air, the EQB falls waaaaay short of the Hummer and most probably the Cadillac Lyriq in shytes and giggles and status (Hummer) and the Lyriq for range, software, style...

The Rivian is in a league of its own. There is virtually NOTHING that Mercedes will offer that will rival Rivian.  Rivian created its own niche. Something that Mercedes flubbed.  Following instead of leading. 

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The problem GM and Ford have is you can't price a Chevy or Ford SUV against a Tesla,

Ford Mach E begs to differ.

Hummer which is as expensive as a Model S also begs to differ.  But the Hummer is a Lamborghini Countach. A Ferrari Testarossa.  Its a poster vehicle. Its to make people look and stare and say WTF is that in admiration. 

And the Hummer from GMC, like all other Hummers from the past, 20 years ago, has succeeded.

NOBODY talks about current Mercedes EVs this way.  In shock and in awe with glee.  Just in shock as in how phoquing ugly are these things? 

All the youtube channels, the automotive press, the people I ask around me, all find the Lucid Air, GMC Hummer, Ford Mach E and  Rivian R1T as interesting and great EVs. Some say the Hummer is overkill, but they understand why.

Not one sumbitch even mentions the Mercedes EVs. Lost in the shuffle they are. 

Plenty of Quebecois I talk to have their sights on the Ioniq 5.  Nobody even knows the EQE and the EQB exists...  They ALL know the Rivian, Mach E and the Hummer. And they all have a very fun and positive response to them.  Some car guys HATE the Mach E as they say its not a real Mustang. Problem is, for Mercedes, they KNOW its an EV and IT EXISTS...   These are car guys, and they do NOT know that ANY Mercedes EQ exists...

Chew on THAT for awhile... 

 

[G. David Felt]

When one looks at companies that are moving forward in Auto Technologies, you see a much more youthful executive team and board. This is seen at both Hyundai and Kia, Ford, GM and Tesla which has led the EV revolution in the 21st century. I do not see that when I look at the executive team and board of Mercedes.

Mercedes-Benz Financial Services (mbfs.com)

Corporate Governance | Mercedes-Benz Group > Company > Corporate Governance

Tesla is having it's day, will it still be having its day in 2025, not so much IMHO.

Will Tesla be the leader in 2030? That is a good crystal ball question, I do not know, but I do know that many Legacy auto companies have their foot on the accelerator and are catching up to Tesla and a good chance one of them will surpass Tesla.

Tesla has a number of problems at this stage:

1. CEO Musk, while a visionary in the past, now just a crazy person
2. Failure to Launch and not just the distraction called Space-X, Tesla is failed to launch their truck, their updated roadster 2.0, Semi, etc........
3. Stale product, still considered by some to be cutting edge, but as we see numerous product launches for EVs over the next 18 to 24 months, Tesla is falling behind.

Will Tesla correct themselves and move forward, or will they fall further behind.

I myself see them falling further behind, the darling they are today with their heavily bloated stock price, I think will be dropping considerably by 2025.

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, David said:

much more youthful

Irrelevant.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Irrelevant.

100% relevant when the mostly old guard fought the change to EVs for decades.

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes outsells Tesla 2 to 1 right now world wide.

You really to have an apples to oranges issue don't you? As Balth pointed out, Tesla outsells Mercedes EVs by country mile but shhhh, we don't discuss that with Mercedes fans because they might have to move that bar yet again. 

[surreal1272]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The problem GM and Ford have is you can't price a Chevy or Ford SUV against a Tesla, no one is paying Tesla money for a Chevrolet crossover, when current Chevy crossover sales are tanking, Buick sales down 58% in Q1, probably supply chain issues, but if there was demand for those, GM would allocate resources there, and they obviously didn't.

IT IS 10000% A SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUE, just like everyone else the past two years, lest we forget that Benz crossover sales were down during that same time period. Oh and you say that Ford and GM can't price their SUVs against Tesla, which makes zero sense because I guess the Mach-E didn't get that well selling memo. Good grief, your entire schtick is just tiresome at times and downright ignorant at others. State actual facts next time instead of your personal feelings on thing that can't even be quantified in a reasonable manner.

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Hummer gets like a 40 MPGe, it is grossly inefficient for an EV, but it is a niche vehicle,

So is every Benz AMG variant but you never point out the "niche" factor of those. How utterly predictable of you.

[surreal1272]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

nd they have EQB SUV later this year in the US (already on sale in Europe) and the EQE SUV which is the Lyric competition next year.  That’s 5 EV’s within the next year, 3 are SUV, and more coming after that.

Read this:

To help meet this lofty goal, GM plans to release 20 EVs in the United States through 2025, with 10 additional EVs for global markets

 

Now answer this. Which is the greater number? 5 or 20? Again, stop acting like Mercedes is the only EV game in town to go against the likes of Tesla with their 5 whole EVs. Just ignorant as hell, quite honestly.

[surreal1272]

41 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You really do have an apples to oranges issue don't you? As Balth pointed out, Tesla outsells Mercedes EVs by country mile but shhhh, we don't discuss that with Mercedes fans because they might have to move that bar yet again. 

Corrected in bold.

[smk4565]

11 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Mercedes lacks in 2 key areas.

1. Style.  And that is saying a lot.   LOL  

2. Tech.  Mercedes is at least 10 years behind Tesla in software, motor and battery tech. 

Means nothing when Mercedes EV will be languishing on dealership floors.   Once GM gets their EVs going, Mercedes will not stand a chance not only against Tesla, but GM too.  LOL.

 

The Rivian is in a league of its own. There is virtually NOTHING that Mercedes will offer that will rival Rivian.  Rivian created its own niche. Something that Mercedes flubbed.  Following instead of leading. 

 

Mercedes has Level 3 autonomous driving, while Tesla does not.   

Consumer Reports also stated that buyers are paying $30-50k over sticker for the EQS, the dealer mark ups are pretty big on them and people are still buying.  There is no sitting on lots.

 

When does the Rivian outsell the F150?  If it is so fantastic, it should become the #1 selling pickup in the USA.   

[oldshurst442]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes has Level 3 autonomous driving, while Tesla does not.   

Consumer Reports also stated that buyers are paying $30-50k over sticker for the EQS, the dealer mark ups are pretty big on them and people are still buying.  There is no sitting on lots.

 

When does the Rivian outsell the F150?  If it is so fantastic, it should become the #1 selling pickup in the USA.   

Level 3 autonomous is bogus. For everybody.

EVERYBODY is PAYING OVER sticker EVERYWHERE

With the Rivian, you sound like a child...

Mercedes literally doesnt sell ANY EVs to the public worth mentioning. 

Mercedes is a lost cause for EVs...

 

[surreal1272]

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Consumer Reports also stated that buyers are paying $30-50k over sticker for the EQS, the dealer mark ups are pretty big on them and people are still buying.  There is no sitting on lots

Exactly how many times does it have to be said? Cite your sources. 

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes has Level 3 autonomous driving, while Tesla does not.

Which does nothing to counter his original statement about style bar mover. The style is garbage. 
 

 

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

With the Rivian, you sound like a child.

Edited April 3, 2022 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

When does the Rivian outsell the F150?  If it is so fantastic, it should become the #1 selling pickup in the USA

Where do you come up with this $h!? He said the Benz has no pickup offerings, not Ford. And by your logic, the EQS should outsell the Tesla S hand over fist. It won’t btw. 

[smk4565]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

 

And Tesla outsells mercedes in EVs about 21 to 1 right now.

Doesn't matter.  They are both selling cars, the powertrain behind them is irrelevant.  It is like saying Toyota sells more hybrids than Ford, it doesn't matter, what matters is how many cars are they selling and how much money are they making.  EV's are 2.5% of the global car market.  Tesla dominates 2.5% of the market and doesn't participate in the other 97.5%.

[oldshurst442]

40 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Where do you come up with this $h!? He said the Benz has no pickup offerings, not Ford. And by your logic, the EQS should outsell the Tesla S hand over fist. It won’t btw. 

Yup...

This is the EXACT quote! 

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Rivian is in a league of its ow. There is virtually NOTHING that Mercedes will offer that will rival Rivian.  Rivian created its own niche. Something that Mercedes flubbed.  Following instead of leading. 

 

The Rivian was not made to outsell the F150 nor the Silverado.

The Rivian was not made to outsell any of the Teslas.

The Rivian was not made to out luxury any Cadillac, Mercedes or to outperform speed metrics from Tesla, Ferrari etc.

Rivian was not even made to out offroad any Hummer or an eventual EV Land Rover and EV Jeep.

Rivian created a possibly new EV niche from an existing yet small niche of the lifestyle pick-up, SUV, hatchback Subaru internal combustion offering.  That of the outdoorsy, bicycle riding, fishing in the wild rivers and lakes of North America, rock climbing in the Appalachians, skiing in the Rockies and in Aspen, lifestyle.  The bow and arrow hunting, bungee jumping lycra wearing youtube influencing Tik Tokkers.  

How big of a pie that is is anybody's guess.  But its an EV niche that belongs ALL to themselves as the Cybertruck from Tesla somehow is the same niche.  Im bet though, Rivian R1T and their SUV counterpart will still outsell the Mercedes trio of EVs no matter how small that niche is...

Mind you, this niche is an old niche. The Jeep CJ and Ford Bronco did that 60-70 years ago and its an on going thing, this time its from a green EV point of view. 

Mercedes could have done something like that and beat Rivian to the punch.  They got existing ICEVs in their current stable...

 

https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/vehicles/transporter/the-new-sprinter-4x4-new-options-offroad/

 

They were too busy trying to phone it in with a Nissan badge job with a gas powered engine...

Mercedes lost precious time and EV engineering knowledge and conceded to many manufacturers in the EV era...

 

 

 

Mercedes has NOTHING to offer to ANYBODY in the EV era...

Just to blind peons that will cling on to the glory of the good 'ole days when Mercedes was product placing in Hollywood movie blockbusters suck as Jurassic Park.   Soooooooo  '90s.

 

BTW, Im curious,  you still watch F*R*I*E*N*D*S? 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

IT IS 10000% A SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUE, just like everyone else the past two years, lest we forget that Benz crossover sales were down during that same time period. Oh and you say that Ford and GM can't price their SUVs against Tesla, which makes zero sense because I guess the Mach-E didn't get that well selling memo. Good grief, your entire schtick is just tiresome at times and downright ignorant at others. State actual facts next time instead of your personal feelings on thing that can't even be quantified in a reasonable manner.

So is every Benz AMG variant but you never point out the "niche" factor of those. How utterly predictable of you.

The Mach E is nearly $20k cheaper than the Model Y, which good for it, because the Model Y is over priced.  But the Mach-E sales were down 47% in February while the Ford brand overall was down 20%.  I don't know if that is supply chain or just buyers not showing up, but it is the 2nd worst selling Ford after the Transit Connect, and sales down twice as much as the rest of the brand.  You'd think they would put their supply chain into the Mach-E over the Edge or Escape or something.

Ford isn't pricing their EV like Tesla now, nor should they, even with the discount it isn't making a big dent.  GM looks to be the one that could get it right if they are way under Tesla in Price, the Equinox EV is half the cost of a Model Y if GM can deliver on that, and I assume the Equinox won't be as good, but it doesn't have to be, it just have to be the best EV out there for $30k+ which right now there is pretty much wide open market space and the cost of most gas crossovers.

AMG's are niche cars too.  It is 10% of Mercedes volume.

47 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Where do you come up with this $h!? He said the Benz has no pickup offerings, not Ford. And by your logic, the EQS should outsell the Tesla S hand over fist. It won’t btw. 

He stated the Riven was a league of it's own.  If that's true, Rivian should be able to take out the F150.  But we all know it won't because EV's are a tiny part of the market, and by the time the masses want EVs, or when 100% of vehicles are EV's, the F150 will be EV and do anything the Rivian does and probably at a lower cost with an actual dealer network.

[surreal1272]

24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Doesn't matter.  They are both selling cars, the powertrain behind them is irrelevant

Only someone like yourself could say something so patently wrong. By that logic, GM spanks Mercedes in worldwide pick up sales. Doesn’t matter that Benz doesn’t have one. They are both selling cars. The presence of a pick up bed in the back is irrelevant. 
 

FFS. 

[surreal1272]

14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Mach E is nearly $20k cheaper than the Model Y, which good for it, because the Model Y is over priced.  But the Mach-E sales were down 47% in February while the Ford brand overall was down 20%.

It simply amazes me how you dance around the obvious because stating such things would contradict your opinions on it. Let me help you out. Here is what happened to the Mach E. 
 

Ford Mustang Mach-E

Ford Mustang Mach-E sales in February amounted to 2,001, which is surprisingly 46.5% less than in February 2021.

We hoped that the Mach-E would improve as the demand is high, but the company is clearly struggling on the production side. We heard that in February production was halted due to a lack of semiconductors, which means that the situation will not likely improve significantly in the near future.

Nonetheless, the Ford Mustang Mach-E was responsible for 1.6% of the total Ford sales volume in the US.

 

Next time, don’t assume. Use Google and know for a fact before making up fifty thousand excuses why Ford and GM can’t compete but somehow Benz can. Seriously faulty logic and lazy posting, quite honestly. 

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

He stated the Riven was a league of it's own.

See his above post and then apologize for not reading what he actually said instead of putting words in his mouth. 

[oldshurst442]

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 

He stated the Riven was a league of it's own. 

 

13 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Rivian is in a league of its own. There is virtually NOTHING that Mercedes will offer that will rival Rivian.  Rivian created its own niche. Something that Mercedes flubbed.  Following instead of leading. 

 

[G. David Felt]

20 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes outsells Tesla 2 to 1 right now worldwide.  

Focusing on the FACTS, Mercedes in a straight up Apple to Apple Comparison. Global EV Sales and here it is still not a true comparison as Mercedes reports their Hybrids mixed in with pure BEV. But using a 3rd party source for the numbers.

2021 (Full Year) Global: Mercedes-Benz and Smart Sales Worldwide by Region and Model - Car Sales Statistics (best-selling-cars.com)

2021 (Full Year) Global: Tesla Car Sales Worldwide - Car Sales Statistics (best-selling-cars.com)

Mercedes-Benz Global Electric Vehicle Sales - 99,301 Electric Vehicles which includes all Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrids and BEV.

Tesla Global Electric Vehicle Sales - 936,172

This is a 10 to 1 sales ratio!

Tesla Sells 10 BEVs for every 1 Mercedes which is again a mix of Hybrid, Plugin Hybrid and BEV.

Take this to a pure BEV to BEV Comparison

QUOTE: 48,936 were Mercedes-EQ battery electric passenger cars (BEV)

Tesla Sells 20 BEV for every 1 BEV from Mercedes.

?

 

[G. David Felt]

I see all the April 1st Cyber Truck is Dead stories and yet this one actually hits some valid points about the future of the truck.

Somehow the Tesla Cybertruck Isn't Dead yet (motorbiscuit.com)

I can so see Tesla never admitting the truck is dead, but letting it cling on in a barely alive pulse of comments while Tesla uses their factories to build the butt ugly 3, Y, S and X autos.

Again here is another story focusing on what Musk said and did not say at the Wednesday Earnings call and it does sound like the Cybertruck is the Halo Truck Tesla wants but will never build.

Cybertruck Hits the Skids: Musk Admits Tesla Plans Shift to Full Self-Driving Cars & ‘Humanoid Robot’ | GearJunkie

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

Focusing on the FACTS, Mercedes in a straight up Apple to Apple Comparison. Global EV Sales and here it is still not a true comparison as Mercedes reports their Hybrids mixed in with pure BEV. But using a 3rd party source for the numbers.

2021 (Full Year) Global: Mercedes-Benz and Smart Sales Worldwide by Region and Model - Car Sales Statistics (best-selling-cars.com)

2021 (Full Year) Global: Tesla Car Sales Worldwide - Car Sales Statistics (best-selling-cars.com)

Mercedes-Benz Global Electric Vehicle Sales - 99,301 Electric Vehicles which includes all Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrids and BEV.

Tesla Global Electric Vehicle Sales - 936,172

This is a 10 to 1 sales ratio!

Tesla Sells 10 BEVs for every 1 Mercedes which is again a mix of Hybrid, Plugin Hybrid and BEV.

Take this to a pure BEV to BEV Comparison

QUOTE: 48,936 were Mercedes-EQ battery electric passenger cars (BEV)

Tesla Sells 20 BEV for every 1 BEV from Mercedes.

?

 

But that doesn't matter because there is no law (so far) that says you can't sell gasoline powered cars.  Mercedes outsells Tesla overall, once Mercedes converts their line to EV, I would expect them to outsell them still.

Tesla sold 24,390 Model S/X combined in 2021 (down 56%).  

Porsche sold 41,296 Taycan in 2021.  First full year on market and they beat Tesla easily head to head.   Q1 in 2022 Tesla sold 15k Model S/X, so if they can keep that pace up it gives them 60k, but that is a sedan and SUV, if Porsche adds an electric SUV, I am sure an SUV and Taycan combined can top 60,000 a year.  And Mercedes can sell over 60k combined EQS sedan and SUV per year.  And if they can beat the Model S/X, why can't they do the same against the 3/Y?

3 hours ago, David said:

I see all the April 1st Cyber Truck is Dead stories and yet this one actually hits some valid points about the future of the truck.

Somehow the Tesla Cybertruck Isn't Dead yet (motorbiscuit.com)

I can so see Tesla never admitting the truck is dead, but letting it cling on in a barely alive pulse of comments while Tesla uses their factories to build the butt ugly 3, Y, S and X autos.

Again here is another story focusing on what Musk said and did not say at the Wednesday Earnings call and it does sound like the Cybertruck is the Halo Truck Tesla wants but will never build.

Cybertruck Hits the Skids: Musk Admits Tesla Plans Shift to Full Self-Driving Cars & ‘Humanoid Robot’ | GearJunkie

They are going to have to build the Cybertruck, full size pickups are too big a market and there is a lot of profit margin in them.  And secondly, off roader vehicles are hot right now, they can't build Wranglers, Broncos and 4Runners fast enough, and since that style vehicle is in demand, and there aren't 47 of them like there are FWD crossovers, there is good profit margin in them too.  Cybertruck checks both boxes, full size truck segment and off road/overlander segment, it is just a no brainer.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

But that doesn't matter because there is no law (so far) that says you can't sell gasoline powered cars.  Mercedes outsells Tesla overall, once Mercedes converts their line to EV, I would expect them to outsell them still.

Thanks for confirming your apples to apples issue. 
 

BTW, it matters to everyone else except biased Mercedes Benz fans apparently. No room for objectivity. You’ve got German ass to kiss!

[smk4565]

36 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Thanks for confirming your apples to apples issue. 
 

BTW, it matters to everyone else except biased Mercedes Benz fans apparently. No room for objectivity. You’ve got German ass to kiss!

Why does it matter that Tesla sold more EV's than Mercedes, Porsche, GM, Ford, Toyota and Audi combined?   EV's are not even 3% of global car sales, there is a lot of market space for other car companies to exploit, Tesla has 2 sedans and 2 crossovers.  What about people that want a pickup, a van, a full size sedan/SUV, a compact car/suv, an off roader, a coupe, a convertible, etc.

And these big OEMs, like Toyota, Ford, VW, GM probably each have 100-150 million current owners worldwide, huge customer bases to pull from, where as Tesla is basically having to always look for first time buyers to their brand, or pull from the maybe 4 million or so current Tesla owners out there.

That Taycan outsold the Model S/X combined.  So it is possible to beat Tesla, Porsche just did it right out of the gate.  Let's see what happens when the Model 3 and Y get direct competition.  

[surreal1272]

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Why does it matter that Tesla sold more EV's than Mercedes, Porsche, GM, Ford, Toyota and Audi combined?

Do you actually read what you post before you post it?

 

Why does it matter so much to you that Tesla sells more EVs than Benz, that you have to dismiss that stat to promote a more pointless stat? Do you not see the blatant hypocrisy in your statement? 
 

 

[balthazar]

It matters because a 'divide' is coming short-term; those that will sign & buy a BEV, and those that will not. 

If the BEV segment ever gets up & gains any momentum market-share-wise, those that will buy BE are already looking to Tesla for one, not mercedes.  You can get a faster, better looking, more technically advanced, better range... and a globally-recognized symbol in a Tesla.  You're not getting that with the glassy-eyed slugs the handful of people are buying from mercedes.

It's not the overall numbers, but the momentum.  It took mercedes 100 years to get to 2.0m passenger vehicle sales/year.

It took Tesla 10 (or 18) years to get to half that number. 936K last year. Based on Q1 number 2022 - Tesla is on pace for 1.2 million this year.

Had it been mercedes that intro'd a viable, luxury-priced BEV 10 years ago and had led the field, they'd be in very good position.  Longer-term, that may well balance out. Right now they're playing catch up.

However, the cyber truck is a joke of a pickup; it's not going to be a volume leader, or even come close. 

[surreal1272]

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

That Taycan outsold the Model S/X combined

Are you drunk? That’s the only reason why I can see that you keep forgetting about supply chain issues for a lot of cars. The S was one of those which again, you would know if you ever bothered to look it up. Tell the whole story next time instead just half-assing your way through it.

 

“Production of the Model S was down for most of the year as Tesla transitioned to an updated version amid the ongoing semiconductor shortage and didn't begin deliveries of the new version until June, while a new Model X just started rolling out to customers last week”

 

Source:

 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/electric-porsche-taycan-outselling-911-tesla-model-s.amp

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

35 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

where as Tesla is basically having to always look for first time buyers to their brand, or pull from the maybe 4 million or so current Tesla owners out there

I’d have to dig through the old archives here but you were singing a different tune about brand recognition and subsequent customer loyalty not so long ago. The only thing that changed since then is that now Mercedes has dipped their toes into the EV pool. Just stop the bar moving and stop the damn excuses for once. 

[surreal1272]

On 6/4/2021 at 10:42 PM, smk4565 said:

Sure they take short cuts, but they do a lot of things well too.  And as I stated, they outsell several luxury brands with no marketing budget.  If you want performance, the V8s can't compete with the electric motors, so Tesla still has a performance advantage over other luxury brands.  And if you just want an EV,  Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Genesis, Land Rover, all don't have an EV.  Tesla still has a lot of advantages in their favor.  It won't be that easy for the competition to just squash them out.  And if it was, why haven't they already?  5 years ago, all those luxury brands outsold Tesla, now Tesla outsells them all except maybe Lexus.

Example number one of your previous touting of Tesla.

On 6/5/2021 at 2:26 PM, smk4565 said:

In 2020 Tesla sold 292,902 units.  Mercedes cars sold 274,916, and Mercedes-Benz Vans sold 50,999.   BMW sold 278,732 units.  Tesla only sold 195,000 in 2019, and yes in 2020 they were the #1 selling luxury brand in the USA.  So I am not sure where all this competition is hurting them.  More EV's from Ford, VW, or anyone else, is just moving sales from gas to electric, it isn't stealing Tesla sales and taking them down.

Example number 2

[ccap41]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:04 PM, David said:

And @smk4565 continues to follow idiots in this world with FUD and grey scale evasive tactics rather than stick to the facts that would take away his delusion of Mercedes is no longer a luxury auto maker, but a mass market auto maker with some luxury autos and many generic appliance autos. 

You may not like Mercedes but walk into a Mercedes dealership and stroll through a few vehicles and then do the same at Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc. They're a luxury automaker with a couple lower end vehicles.

I sat in a 2021 S580, 2022 GLS63, and 2021 G550 this weekend and there is not a thing from the "standard" automakers that is as nice AND gnarly as those. 

[surreal1272]

On 6/11/2021 at 8:04 PM, smk4565 said:

Musk doesn't have a sales problem or a demand problem.  If he couldn't get $140k for a Model S, he wouldn't price it that way.

Example number 3.

 

You want more examples of your about face prior to Mercedes officially joining the EV game?

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You may not like Mercedes but walk into a Mercedes dealership and stroll through a few vehicles and then do the same at Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc. They're a luxury automaker with a couple lower end vehicles.

I sat in a 2021 S580, 2022 GLS63, and 2021 G550 this weekend and there is not a thing from the "standard" automakers that is as nice AND gnarly as those. 

Funny. I strolled through one of their lots in Glendale, AZ (Arrowhead Mercedes) and found vans parked next to E-Class and S-Class sedans. They are not as "exclusive as their fans make them out to be. Furthermore, David has a point. They more compliance autos than ever before and love pulling that visual slight of hand with even their upper end offerings like the EQS (see the base model dash but just don't look for it on MBs website since they only show the hyper screen models). Are they still a luxury car company? Sure, in the technical sense. Are they are "exclusive" as they once were? Hell no.

[ccap41]

On 4/2/2022 at 11:40 PM, oldshurst442 said:

Means nothing when Mercedes EV will be languishing on dealership floors.

I was at a Benz dealership this weekend. They can't keep EQS on the floor. They're moving as soon as they get them in. I asked because I wanted to see one. 

I think they're hideous and couldn't imagine driving one myself, but they're being sold as soon as they're being produced. 

4 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Funny. I strolled through one of their lots in Glendale, AZ (Arrowhead Mercedes) and found vans parked next to E-Class and S-Class sedans. They are not as "exclusive as their fans make them out to be. Furthermore, David has a point. They more compliance autos than ever before and love pulling that visual slight of hand with even their upper end offerings like the EQS (see the base model dash but just don't look for it on MBs website since they only show the hyper screen models). Are they still a luxury car company? Sure, in the technical sense. Are they are "exclusive" as they once were? Hell no.

I could care less if they also produce vans and commercial vehicles. That doesn't mean the cars and SUVs aren't luxurious. 

Compliance autos? What is even meant by that? 

[ccap41]

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

It's not the overall numbers, but the momentum.  It took mercedes 100 years to get to 2.0m passenger vehicle sales/year.

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

It took Tesla 10 (or 18) years to get to half that number. 936K last year. Based on Q1 number 2022 - Tesla is on pace for 1.2 million this year.

How many years did it take Mercedes to reach that number then? There's always a sharp spike as they hit their stride and released new vehicles. Now they're not releasing anything new anytime soon, I don't think anybody here thinks the CyberTruck is close to production, right? 

Now everything they have is fairly old at this point and I don't think there's anything new in the pipeline so I don't see them continuing that kind of growth. I think they'll plateau around 1m units. Doubling THAT will take a lot more products and fresh products, and also the ability to produce that many vehicles. 

[balthazar]

Isn’t just about everything selling as soon as it gets in currently?

It’s a good question on Tesla volume going forward.

[surreal1272]

34 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I was at a Benz dealership this weekend. They can't keep EQS on the floor. They're moving as soon as they get them in. I asked because I wanted to see one. 

I think they're hideous and couldn't imagine driving one myself, but they're being sold as soon as they're being produced. 

I could care less if they also produce vans and commercial vehicles. That doesn't mean the cars and SUVs aren't luxurious. 

Compliance autos? What is even meant by that? 

You just answered part of that above and I would like to add the various FWD based sedans and CUVs they have released over the last twenty years, where as before FWD luxury cars were absolutely taboo for any German luxury maker. Those are the very definition of "compliance cars". It's not even debatable and you can say that you could acre less about what was on the lot and that is your choice. However, it is also your choice to ignore the contradiction in your earlier assessment of their "showrooms". You can't look at the showroom without passing through the lot first and seeing those various non-luxury vans sharing the same lot with $100K luxury cars, something the resident Mercedes fanboy has shredded GM for in the past (Cadillac sharing lots with lower tier GM makes or Chevrolet selling $100K Vettes alongside $13K Sparks).

 

That is all I am going to say about it.

39 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I was at a Benz dealership this weekend. They can't keep EQS on the floor. They're moving as soon as they get them in. I asked because I wanted to see one. 

That is a common theme with just about everyone right now hence these higher than average prices on literally everything with wheels on them. Mercedes is in no way unique here and you know that.

[surreal1272]

But Mercedes...

[ccap41]

37 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Isn’t just about everything selling as soon as it gets in currently?

It’s a good question on Tesla volume going forward.

Are everything selling that fast over 100k? I mean they had all of those vehicles I mentioned above that are well above 100k in the showroom so they're not selling THAT fast. 

fun fact, the salesman we were talking to recently bought a 4Xe Wrangler and he absolutely LOVES it. He says he fills up once a week out of habit and puts between 3-4 gallons in, the rest of his drives are electric. He only gets about 15 miles of all electric range but he charges at the dealership and at home. This is his 5th or 6th Wrangler and couldn't be happier with the hybrid powertrain. 

[ccap41]

35 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You just answered part of that above and I would like to add the various FWD based sedans and CUVs they have released over the last twenty years, where as before FWD luxury cars were absolutely taboo for any German luxury maker. Those are the very definition of "compliance cars". It's not even debatable and you can say that you could acre less about what was on the lot and that is your choice. However, it is also your choice to ignore the contradiction in your earlier assessment of their "showrooms". You can't look at the showroom without passing through the lot first and seeing those various non-luxury vans sharing the same lot with $100K luxury cars, something the resident Mercedes fanboy has shredded GM for in the past (Cadillac sharing lots with lower tier GM makes or Chevrolet selling $100K Vettes alongside $13K Sparks).

I understand what you're saying but I don't see how the 2 FWD(GLA & GLB - Am I forgetting another one or two?) "compliance" vehicles should take away from the rest of the lineup that is the nearly the definition of luxury vehicles to then say the entire brand is just a compliance auto company. 

Also, the GLB and GLC are way too close in size to both be produced, imo. We've had a loaner of each and the interiors are VERY similar and the size is also VERY similar. I'm not really sure what the point of having both is. The only thing I could think of is one being RWD based give the potential for the AMG version to be more gnarly but that doesn't really make enough sense to me. 

Doing some typing and research at the same time... I forgot about the GLA and A Class(I no clue how different it is from the CLA but whatever). The GLB starts about 5k cheaper than the GLC. The GLB seems priced to go against the Corsair and the likes of those. 

44 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

That is a common theme with just about everyone right now hence these higher than average prices on literally everything with wheels on them. Mercedes is in no way unique here and you know that.

Not arguing that BUT, they had the vehicles I listed and if they were selling THAT fast, they wouldn't have been there. But the point was just that it is selling versus the statement of, "languishing on dealership floors". Nobody called that comment out? 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

You may not like Mercedes but walk into a Mercedes dealership and stroll through a few vehicles and then do the same at Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc. They're a luxury automaker with a couple lower end vehicles.

I sat in a 2021 S580, 2022 GLS63, and 2021 G550 this weekend and there is not a thing from the "standard" automakers that is as nice AND gnarly as those. 

I should also note the new G Wagen is head and shoulders nicer than the one pervious generation. Yeah, they look the same on the outside but the interior is sooooo much nicer. 

The one I sat in was a dark metallic green with dark brown leather... beautiful color combo. They also had a GLS in the same color combo. I'm a sucker for dark green with brown leather. 

[oldshurst442]

19 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

if they were selling THAT fast, they wouldn't have been there. But the point was just that it is selling versus the statement of, "languishing on dealership floors". Nobody called that comment out? 

 

Maybe you should NOT cherry pick?

The conversation was that they are gonna be languishing on the floor...in 2024...

He (SMK) mentioned 2024.  I kindly responded in the context of 2024.  

As @surreal1272 pointed out, and Im not stupid to know that there is a penurie of chips and therefore there is a penurie of new cars available to buy  and therefore no languishing of cars for the most part for most brands and for most models are happening right now and for at least well into 2023...  

I dunno...reading and reading comprehension aint that hard if you have completed primary school. 

But yeah...feel free to call me out on YOUR lack of reading comprehension...

 

(penurie...french for shortage.)

FREE French lesson for the day. 

Second time somebody has reading problems in this thread. I will start teaching you folks french. Maybe we will understand each other better as it seems plain 'ole English is problematic...

Edited April 4, 2022 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

Maybe you should NOT cherry pick?

The conversation was that they are gonna be languishing on the floor...in 2024...

He (SMK) mentioned 2024.  I kindly responded in the context of 2024.  

My mistake, I missed the 2024 part of that, wasn't intentional. 

Also, ease up on the salt this morning... It's too early for that, lol. 

[oldshurst442]

Ill ease up on the salt. LOL 

Its a great day in Montreal 

SUNNY!!!  and WARM!!!

Ok...

The name of the thread is:

competition to destroy Tesla.

Not from Mercedes I says for the third time in this thread.

Not only for trolling SMK, but based in reality.

Its common knowledge that Tesla's EV tech is years ahead of the competition.  Its only natural. Tesla has been studying this, R and D-ind this for quite longer than some others.

Mercedes is lagging in that department.

Strike One against Mercedes.

But my reasoning of why Mercedes EVs will be languishing on the floor in 2024 is not only because of the lagging behind in tech as compared not only to Tesla, but to GM and Ford as well.

Volkswagen group with Audi's Etron GT and Porsche's Taycan is ALSO ahead of the Mercedes EQS' tech. And Porsche will have a jab at their second attempt to improve upon the Taycan about this time around.

Porsche and Audi twins are gonna be FORMIDABLE come 2024 or 2025.

Another point:

Which is Strike Two:

STYLE

The EQS is ugly NOW.  ALL offerings of EQE and EQB are UGLY.  And these will come out in 2022. 

In 2024, they will be THAT MUCH MORE outdated. tech AND ESPECIALLY styling wise.

Mercedes top luxury cars, the limosine type cars, the S Class, has ALWAYS been STATELY.

Boring...but STATELY.

Boring we could live with as long as its STATELY.

Ugly is NOT exciting.  

The thing is, the EQS is not even stately.   The KEY feature of any top Mercedes is STATELY.  

One could argue the EQB is stately. I will give in to that idea. But the other two just fall short in every way that shouldnt be in order for Mercedes to stand out in the EV arena in 2024.

Not forgetting that Cadillac will have a stately Lyriq (I dont like it, but to many its not only sexy, but stately as well. The Lucid Air. Lucid's SUV...  etc etc etc...

[G. David Felt]

Glad that some of the EQS are selling, that would not be the case here and having taken my SS to the dealer to have the Front Diff rebuilt as at 187,700 this morning on driving in, it is howling. The Dealership is just a few miles down the road from the local Mercedes Dealership here and I wish I could have snapped a picture of it this morning as all they had was used autos and a butt load, ton of Mercedes vans out front. I looked up online and they still have their EQS listed as on the show room floor available for sale. 

Yes, Tesla has a big store with auto's across from Mercedes, but other than a couple cars inside, nothing that seems available to sell. I think it is very geographical on where they might be selling.

Interesting observation was the Toyota dealership as I got my free ride home is a mile or so away from where I live and they had no Toyota's in the front that one could see, but they did have a huge Mercedes, BMW and Audi assortment of auto's. I find that enlightening those folks either have traded them in or that dealership is buying up all the leases that come up off wholesale and attempting to sell them as new autos are hard to get.

[ccap41]

4 minutes ago, David said:

The Dealership is just a few miles down the road from the local Mercedes Dealership here and I wish I could have snapped a picture of it this morning as all they had was used autos and a butt load, ton of Mercedes vans out front. I looked up online and they still have their EQS listed as on the show room floor available for sale. 

Sounds like everything else is selling quite well then... 

5 minutes ago, David said:

Yes, Tesla has a big store with auto's across from Mercedes, but other than a couple cars inside, nothing that seems available to sell. I think it is very geographical on where they might be selling.

If there's a geographical area that EVs don't sell well, it would be the Midwest. You probably see way more electric vehicles than I do here. 

Everything is for sale, not sure what you mean by "nothing that seems available to sell."