Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla started nearly 10 years ago

Tesla started in 2003- 18 years ago.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

How does Rivian offer consumer choice with 1 SUV when the other guy has 9 of them?

Do you think a person walks into BMW dealership and says 'Show me an X1, an X7, and every SUV in between; I have utterly no idea what I want and I can afford any of them"??

[surreal1272]

24 minutes ago, David said:

Interesting how you dropped Tesla from this list of auto companies you would bet on. 

On top of that, he has said that those very same companies have a lot of catching up to do when it comes to Tesla yet now...

[Robert Hall]

8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Tesla started in 2003- 18 years ago.

 

They only made about 2500 Roadsters from '08-12, so 2003-2011 doesn't really count--it wasn't until the Model S came out in 2012 that they were taken seriously. 

[surreal1272]

35 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

and if you ask 100 people on the street would you rather have a Mercedes or a Lucid Air, 99 are going to say "what the hell is a Lucid Air?"  

Yet, you probably made a similar statement about Tesla years back. Meanwhile, they compete just fine with those same companies these days. Bet those buyers know who Tesla is now. The same will apply to Lucid once and if they can get out the door without the same quality hiccups that have plagued Tesla since day one.

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

They only made about 2500 Roadsters from '08-12, so 2003-2011 doesn't really count--it wasn't until the Model S came out in 2012 that they were taken seriously. 

Except that is not what SMK said. He said the company started ten years ago which, as Balth pointed out, is not true.

Edited August 30, 2021 by surreal1272

[Robert Hall]

6 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

 

Except that is not what SMK said. He said the company started ten years ago which, as Balth pointed out, is not true.

2003-2011 Tesla was pretty much a non-entity in the market, so I could see how he overlooked the first 8 or so years...  Rivian has been around for 12 years now as a company, but has yet to get product in the hands of consumers, for example.  Lucid has been around 14 years.   I can't imagine having such long lead times to get a product to market.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Robert Hall

[surreal1272]

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

2003-2011 Tesla was pretty much a non-entity in the market, so I could see how he overlooked the first 8 or so years...  Rivian has been around for 12 years now as a company, but has yet to get product in the hands of consumers, for example.  Lucid has been around 14 years.   I can't imagine having such long lead times to get a product to market.

But in the most technical sense, they have been in "business" for 18 years. That was the point I believe Balth was trying to make.

[balthazar]

>> “How is Tesla supposed to compete with only one coupe when other brands have dozens of different models?!?” <<
~ 2008 internet troll

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

>> “How is Tesla supposed to compete with only one coupe when other brands have dozens of different models?!?” <<
~ 2008 internet troll

I'm sure that was said on this very site..

[balthazar]

- - - - -
There’s no ‘doesn’t count’ here; the company existed and was functioning, even if they only had 1 extremely-limited-appeal rebaged model.

[smk4565]

37 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Tesla started in 2003- 18 years ago.

Do you think a person walks into BMW dealership and says 'Show me an X1, an X7, and every SUV in between; I have utterly no idea what I want and I can afford any of them"??

Tesla Model S was about 10 years ago is what I meant.  Even the roadster went on sale in like 08 or 09 but there was no volume there.

And I don't think that, but BMW has an SUV for a single person, a family, someone that wants an EV (once that iX thing is on sale, or maybe i3 is around still), a 3-row, a performance SUV, etc.   Rivian has 1 option, if you don't like that one option you go to the next brand. 

 

[balthazar]

Bmw doesn’t have 7 or 9 SUVs in the Rivian’s price range; they have 1. So if the buyer doesn’t like the X7, they can go over to Rivian.

See how that turned?

Edited August 30, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

55 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Bmw doesn’t have 7 or 9 SUVs in the Rivian’s price range; they have 1. So if the buyer doesn’t like the X7, they can go over to Rivian.

See how that turned?

The X5, X6 and X7 are all the Rivian price range.  The X8 is coming next year, will be more more expensive than a Rivian though.  The iX is supposed to start around $85k, more than a Rivian, but not so far off.  

 

[balthazar]

Rivian R1S starts at $75K.
bmw x5 starts at $59K. Not at all in the same price range.

bmw x6 starts at $67K. Close, perhaps some will cross-shop, but not many. Also almost twice as slow to 60 as the Rivian (5.3 vs. 3.0)... according to your common metric that means no one will remotely consider the bmw.

x7 at least is $75K, direct competition price-wise. And the only one. 

Rumors about the x8 have been swirling at least since summer of '20, but it's merely a 'GT' variant of the X7... nothing special. GT variants typically sell very poorly, so expect a price-topper GT to be near impossible to move.

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

Bmw doesn’t have 7 or 9 SUVs in the Rivian’s price range; they have 1. So if the buyer doesn’t like the X7, they can go over to Rivian.

See how that turned?

Heck, BMW doesn't even have ONE all-electric truck or SUV to compete with Rivian. 

[ccap41]

Tesla has a hill to climb in the truck market already.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-truck-first-drive-review/

"The 2022 Rivian R1T Is the Most Remarkable Pickup We’ve Ever Driven

Yep, we drove it. Are you ready for the electric truck revolution?

The 2022 Rivian R1T is the first mass-produced electric truck to hit the U.S. market, but that's hardly the most interesting thing about it. Its electric powertrain notwithstanding, the R1T is unlike any pickup we've ever driven—part truck, part sport sedan, and 100 percent amazing. It's been speculated that pickup buyers are too conservative to embrace electrification, but after our first drive in a pre-production Rivian R1T, both on-road and off-, we think this is the electric truck that will turn them into believers.

 

There's so much we want to tell you about the Rivian R1T that it's difficult to pick a place to start, so let's begin with the basic layout. Sizewise, the R1T is a tweener, slotting somewhere between a midsize pickup like the Chevy Colorado and a traditional half-tonner like the Ford F-150. The Rivian R1T's shape and compact bed mimic those of "lifestyle" trucks like the Honda Ridgeline and Hyundai Santa Cruz, but it'll tow 11,000 pounds according to Rivian and rock crawl like a Jeep Gladiator according to us. And it jets around corners like no pickup truck ever has. ..."

[surreal1272]

18 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The X5, X6 and X7 are all the Rivian price range.  The X8 is coming next year, will be more more expensive than a Rivian though.  The iX is supposed to start around $85k, more than a Rivian, but not so far off.  

 

And none are electric like Rivian making this a truly apples to oranges comparison. 

[smk4565]

BMW has the iX on sale Spring 2022, not far off from when the Rivian suv comes out.

 

And if the Rivian truck is so great and the best truck ever, is going to outsell the F150?  Answer is no.  These EV brands are like boutique brands like Aston Martin or Jaguar/Land Rover that just get sold to different companies since they can’t really survive on their own.

[ccap41]

Is that what has happened to Tesla thus far? 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

BMW has the iX on sale Spring 2022, not far off from when the Rivian suv comes out.

And it is an entirely different (and smaller) type of EV as it is more CUV while the Rivian can actually go off road. Again, won’t be cross shopped. Besides I said they had nothing right now, not that they had a future nothing. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And if the Rivian truck is so great and the best truck ever, is going to outsell the F150?

What in the bar moving hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China? No one said it had to outsell the Ford (it won’t). It was about having more than one model in the EV realm (since you originally said they had just one), that BMW currently had nothing for it (since you made the ridiculous comparisons to their multiple ICE CUVs). It is also clear that you no little to nothing about Rivian so the rest of your post is 100% bunk at this point. 

[smk4565]

My question is more if companies like Rivian or Lucid will be around in 10 years.  Once the big OEMs flood the market with EV's they will give the consumers more choice, and also they will have economies of scale that will yield lower prices.  Even look at Tesla, they have done mild updates over the years to the Model S, rather than come up with all new versions as a big OEM would do with their cars.  I suppose they could get enough of a following and live at a high price point and hang around in the way Lotus or Aston Martin have, but every other low volume manufacture like Alfa Romeo or Maserati is part of a big conglomerate, even JLR and Volvo are owned by someone else.

[ccap41]

If Rivian didn't have partnerships with Amazon and Ford, I would have a much greater doubt in them. But, they do so I am quite confident they will make it. I'm not sure about the others though. 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

BMW has the iX on sale Spring 2022, not far off from when the Rivian suv comes out.

 

And if the Rivian truck is so great and the best truck ever, is going to outsell the F150?  Answer is no.  These EV brands are like boutique brands like Aston Martin or Jaguar/Land Rover that just get sold to different companies since they can’t really survive on their own.

Where is Mercedes (the Best Luxury Auto Company in the World according to you) Pickup let alone the 5 to 6 EV's in both car and CUV platform that you are talking about!

[surreal1272]

40 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

If Rivian didn't have partnerships with Amazon and Ford, I would have a much greater doubt in them. But, they do so I am quite confident they will make it. I'm not sure about the others though. 

With those two partners alone, they are starting on better footing than Tesla (in the early days). At least they didn’t piggy back off of a useless two door (from another company) for six years before they put out their first actual car which was also not a CUV or SUV or Pickup. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

if the Rivian truck is so great and the best truck ever, is going to outsell the F150?

[Spin the Wheel of Bar Moving....]
So here again, you are applying the 'sells the most = so great and the best ever".

I hadn't heard you were that in love with the F-150.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, David said:

Where is Mercedes (the Best Luxury Auto Company in the World according to you) Pickup let alone the 5 to 6 EV's in both car and CUV platform that you are talking about!

Mercedes isn't going to make a pickup, they dipped their toe in that water and it seems decided that isn't for them.  They are a luxury car/SUV company.  They are showing 5 EV's in September apparently, for sure EQE, a Maybach SUV, an AMG sedan, and an electric GLB.  The 5th might actually be a Smart branded product for China and Europe.  AMG GT73 is a plug in hybrid debuting tomorrow, but that isn't an EV.  New SL debuts in September, that has a plug-in option I think.  And all of that will be on sale in 2022.  Electric G-wagen is in the works, to go with the EQ-GLE, EQ-GLS or whatever they call those. Their EV line will probably be bigger than Lucid, Tesla and Rivian combined in 2023, because they have cash, manpower, and factories all over the world.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

If Rivian didn't have partnerships with Amazon and Ford, I would have a much greater doubt in them. But, they do so I am quite confident they will make it. I'm not sure about the others though. 

I don't get why Ford would invest in a competitor that is taking away F150 sales.  Unless Ford is planning to invest at a low price, what for the stock to pop, then dump the stock for a quick profit, and nothing wrong with doing that.  But Rivian's market cap is more than Ford's, so Ford can't take them over, if anything it would be Rivian leading the takeover of Ford or a dreaded "merger of equals" where Rivian and Ford merge in a 50-50 deal, and then Rivian gets half of Ford's assets.  I don't know, will be interesting to see how that plays out.

 

EDIT:

We don't have to wait til tomorrow, it's here, AMG GT63 E-Performance, 831 hp and 1,082 lb-ft.  

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by smk4565

[balthazar]

So Daimler isn't going to bother trying to compete in the hottest vehicle segment, one that has been growing steadily for, I dunno, 50 -60 years?? Why would they leave those billions on the table for other OEMs to sweep up? SO stupid.

And why are they still wasting time with hybrids? The industry is pushing past them SO rapidly...

Edited August 31, 2021 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes isn't going to make a pickup, they dipped their toe in that water and it seems decided that isn't for them.

 

And you'd think Mercedes with that kind of engineering prowess they would engineer a decent pick-up truck without reverting to go and sleep with Nissan...

They also have a century of engineering trucks and busses. Military and civilian.  

Boy... talk about blunders, huh???

Best or nothing is how it goes???!!!

Engineered like no other???

 

THAT is Captain America, bud!!!  Laughing at the poor little German Weiner schnitzels!!!

 

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They are a luxury car/SUV company.

 

 

And as I was googling Mercedes econoshytboxes, I came across this Buick looking thing of 2 decades ago...

 

That aint luxury my dear... 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Why would they leave those billions on the table for other OEMs to sweep up? SO stupid.

'cause they cant really engineer anything of substance in that segment on their own...

They went with Nissan and that failed.

Too bad they missed on the opportunity to bilk Chryco. out of more money and engineering knowledge on how to design, engineer and sell pick-up trucks.  They got away with it with Jeep and the Dodge Viper though... 

What gets me is that Mercedes does have a century of history building military trucks...   I guess that doesnt translate well in the civilian market...    

Mercedes has NOTHING on Ford, GM and Chrysler in my opinion...   

 

[oldshurst442]

Mercedes is luxury...

 

2014 Toyota

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[riviera74]

Luxury MB only happened because Mercedes CARS were really expensive in the USA starting with their arrival back in the 1960s.  They were never cheap here.  Whereas in Germany, MB in many ways is more Chevrolet than Cadillac. 

At least VW has Audi (and a bunch of other brands) for luxury and BMW NEVER sold cheap common cars either in the USA or Europe.  Reputation does sell cars.  The fact that Hyundai/KIA had to create Genesis since the former two are common car marques points to the fact that the trend of MB going cheaper and cheaper is more of a disaster than Daimler realizes.

Tesla is following a more successful BMW model of staying exclusive, rather than Mercedes pursuing almost every market segment.  Now if only they can keep their cars from malfunctioning and catching fire. . . .

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

'cause they cant really engineer anything of substance in that segment on their own...

They went with Nissan and that failed.

Too bad they missed on the opportunity to bilk Chryco. out of more money and engineering knowledge on how to design, engineer and sell pick-up trucks.  They got away with it with Jeep and the Dodge Viper though... 

What gets me is that Mercedes does have a century of history building military trucks...   I guess that doesnt translate well in the civilian market...    

Mercedes has NOTHING on Ford, GM and Chrysler in my opinion...   

 

Daimler did loot Chrysler----of virtually all their money.  That is why Chrysler was sold to Cerberus and then FIAT.  So what if Mercedes failed to build a REAL BOF TRUCK for the civilian market?  They could build a real truck in Europe and/or here but they did not build a good truck that can sell.  (Nissan was a mistake.)  This is completely their fault and their missed opportunity.

[balthazar]

24 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

BMW NEVER sold cheap common cars either in the USA or Europe.

Sure they did. The early 2002's were a few hundred dollars cheaper than a same-year Chevy Bel Air, and it was certainly cheaply equipped!

They weren't common, but they weren't expensive.

[G. David Felt]

@oldshurst442 @riviera74 I am working to finish a project before Labor Day, so no time to search for this, but did Mercedes actually really build a truck off the Nissan Bones and sell it?

I thought the Mercedes Badged Nissan Truck was only shown off in concept form and never went into mass production is how I remember it, but I could be wrong, so asking for clarification if they actually tried to badge engineer a truck sold at retail?

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Luxury MB only happened because Mercedes CARS were really expensive in the USA starting with their arrival back in the 1960s.  They were never cheap here.  Whereas in Germany, MB in many ways is more Chevrolet than Cadillac. 

At least VW has Audi (and a bunch of other brands) for luxury and BMW NEVER sold cheap common cars either in the USA or Europe.  Reputation does sell cars.  The fact that Hyundai/KIA had to create Genesis since the former two are common car marques points to the fact that the trend of MB going cheaper and cheaper is more of a disaster than Daimler realizes.

Tesla is following a more successful BMW model of staying exclusive, rather than Mercedes pursuing almost every market segment.  Now if only they can keep their cars from malfunctioning and catching fire. . . .

Daimler did loot Chrysler----of virtually all their money.  That is why Chrysler was sold to Cerberus and then FIAT.  So what if Mercedes failed to build a REAL BOF TRUCK for the civilian market?  They could build a real truck in Europe and/or here but they did not build a good truck that can sell.  (Nissan was a mistake.)  This is completely their fault and their missed opportunity.

BMW sold the 2002, a cheap car, the Isetta, a really cheap car, scores of 1-series, many fwd 1-series in Europe, the 318i in the USA in the 90s that was dirt cheap.  BMW has a wide range of cheap and expensive.  

The original Mercedes in 1901 was the most power, fastest car in the world, the cars they built in the 1930s were on par with Rolls-Royce and Bentley, the 1963 Mercedes 600 was the most expensive car in the world, double the cost of a Rolls-Royce.  They made lots of expensive cars.

Daimler paid $37 billion to buy Chrysler and sold it for $7.4 billion.  They didn't loot Chrysler of any money, they lost $29.6 billion on that deal.  

As far as a truck, they do make the G-wagen, they make the Unimog, the best off roader ever,  and Daimler is the world's #1 producer of Class 8 trucks.  I don't think pick up truck is where Mercedes-Benz wants to be, the Nissan tie in was an experiment to test the waters in Europe without them spending much money, and it was the right move, because a Merceres pick up isn't going to be a popular seller.  Much like Cadillac EXT, Lincoln Blackwood, Lincoln Mark LT didn't work, there is no Lexus version of the Tundra, etc.  Not a lot of market for a luxury pick up.

 

Mercedes has the higher transaction prices than any of their peers, they also go higher up the price tier than any of their peers.  I don't see a Genesis sedan with a base price of $109,000 like the S-class, used G-wagens (2019-2020) are going for an average of $173,000 right now, imagine a used Escalade or Navigator selling for $173k.  But as I always say, I like competition, if Genesis or Lexus or Cadillac want to jump into the $200k price range and go against the top Mercedes bring it on.  If they want to come to Formula 1 and race against Mercedes then bring it on.  

Here, 831 hp, 1,033 lb-ft.  Where is the Genesis or Lexus rival?  The CT5-V Blackwing was GM's best effort, and it is slower than a GT63 on a track, so is the BMW M5 CS and the Panamera Turbo Hybrid, and now the E-performance GT63 is even faster.  The fastest 4-door in the world just put the other guys farther back in the dust.  

[smk4565]

24 minutes ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 @riviera74 I am working to finish a project before Labor Day, so no time to search for this, but did Mercedes actually really build a truck off the Nissan Bones and sell it?

I thought the Mercedes Badged Nissan Truck was only shown off in concept form and never went into mass production is how I remember it, but I could be wrong, so asking for clarification if they actually tried to badge engineer a truck sold at retail?

The chassis for the Nissan Nivera or Navera, however you spell it, was used as the basis of the Mercedes X-class.  A lot of the body panels were the same I think, but the X-class had it's own front and rear facia and interior, so similar to Tahoe turned into an Escalade, a lot of shared bones.   Although the Mercedes X-class used Mercedes own 4 and 6 cylinder diesel engines and the Mercedes 7G-tronic transmission, not the Nissan powertrains, maybe used Mercedes suspension components, I don't remember.  They were on sale in Europe for 2 years maybe and pulled the plug on it.  I don't think they sold very many.  I did a quick price search, looks like the X-class was $45-85k, but who knows how exchange rates and taxes factor in, cars cost more in Europe, but they were expensive compared to other mid size pickups.

[oldshurst442]

The 2002?     Yeah...and all of its 3 Series successors up until a decade ago when the 3 Series grew in size, and price and BMW introduced the 2 Series.  

The 3 Series in Europe was an econobox. It was equipped as such and sold as one straight after the 2002 up until BMW introduced the 2 Series and the 3 Series grew in size and the coupe became the 4 Series...

Im only happy to ALWAYS post this shytebox to REMIND people how BMW and Mercedes are NOT luxury cars in Europe...

 

These cars

were sold with 1.5 and 1.6 liter 4 cylinder engines with 75HP and 89 HP...  

But we CONSTANTLY laugh at our American cars. We criticize the J Body from GM... yet a J Body was no worse. It was FWD rather than RWD and wrong for Cadillac, but the J Body was on par if not better than a Euro spec 3 Series...  And if you have thoughts on a 325 Bimmer being all that, well it wasnt... 

And let us not forget that BMW sold the Isetta to war stricken Europeans way before the 2002.

 

Thing is, after WW2, all European makes were selling econoboxes as EVERY Average Joe Euorpean was devastated financially from the war.  German car makers, ALL of them ONLY survived BECAUSE American and British money made it so...  

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 Much like Cadillac EXT, Lincoln Blackwood, Lincoln Mark LT didn't work, there is no Lexus version of the Tundra, etc.  Not a lot of market for a luxury pick up.

Yeah...but...

The Ford and GMC versions sell at Cadillac prices...and sell MORE of these than what Mercedes actually sells in that price range... 

Id re-think your thought process... 

[balthazar]

>>"Much like Cadillac EXT, Lincoln Blackwood, Lincoln Mark LT didn't work, there is no Lexus version of the Tundra, etc.  Not a lot of market for a luxury pick up."<<

Yeah, but it'd be a mercedes, which certainly could mean a mass-volume mainstream model. 
They could have a 4-banger mid-size truck, start it at $32K and try and stick a $30K-long option list to it.
Lots of plastic cladding, 28 circular air vents, add an AMG package and boom!- another revenue stream.

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes has the higher transaction prices than any of their peers, they also go higher up the price tier than any of their peers.  I don't see a Genesis sedan with a base price of $109,000 like the S-class, used G-wagens (2019-2020) are going for an average of $173,000 right now, imagine a used Escalade or Navigator selling for $173k.

This is why a reasonable discussion cannot be had with you. You jump all over the map with senseless comparisons and move the bar whenever it pleases you.

 

And we have talked about these lies you like to spill about transaction prices. Just stop it already. No one cares and this never goes anywhere because you refuse to acknowledge facts.

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

imagine a used Escalade or Navigator selling for $173k.

Well since they don't sell for that price new, then that makes this one of those stupid comparisons of yours. The Slade and Navigator don't even compete with the overpriced and way too small G-Wagen. I do know that they routinely outsell their actual German competition though so...

[balthazar]

mercedes' ATPs barely edge out Cadillac (#2), so that tells you how much the downmarket/mainstream products balance out the handful of $100K+ vehicles they sell.

[surreal1272]

12 minutes ago, balthazar said:

mercedes' ATPs barely edge out Cadillac (#2), so that tells you how much the downmarket/mainstream products balance out the handful of $100K+ vehicles they sell.

Shhhh! You know can't post facts around here when it comes to Daimler fans. You'll just make their arms tired from all the bar moving.

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

With those two partners alone, they are starting on better footing than Tesla (in the early days). At least they didn’t piggy back off of a useless two door (from another company) for six years before they put out their first actual car which was also not a CUV or SUV or Pickup. 

Completely agree. But I do understand why Tesla started where they did. They didn't have the resources Rivian currently does. As of now, I'm hoping Rivian really takes off and makes a decent portfolio with their resources and the CEO seems like an all around good guy so I'm(obviously) rooting for them. 

They have their IPO coming soon, too, so they'll be going public. I'd like to be able to get in on them early, if possible. 

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes isn't going to make a pickup, they dipped their toe in that water and it seems decided that isn't for them.  They are a luxury car/SUV company.

That's a shame because pickup buyers definitely buying luxury trucks. I think they could have success if they really made an effort for a full size truck. I don't think nor expect it would outsell any current truck on the market because I'd assume it would be a 60-120k truck but I think it would, at the very least, pay for itself. 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't get why Ford would invest in a competitor that is taking away F150 sales.  Unless Ford is planning to invest at a low price, what for the stock to pop, then dump the stock for a quick profit, and nothing wrong with doing that.  But Rivian's market cap is more than Ford's, so Ford can't take them over, if anything it would be Rivian leading the takeover of Ford or a dreaded "merger of equals" where Rivian and Ford merge in a 50-50 deal, and then Rivian gets half of Ford's assets.  I don't know, will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Because of their technology. 

ORIGINALLY, Rivian was supposed to underpin a Lincoln SUV but that fell through earlier this year. 

"It is a strategic, long-term partnership, Ford CEO Jim Farley says. Ford will look for forms of co-development or sharing of technology or platforms in the future. "But we're not just running over to Plymouth [the Michigan town, where Rivian Engineering and Design Center is located] and giving them assignments."

RJ Scaringe, CEO of Rivian, is equally bullish. "We have a very good relationship with Ford," he tells MotorTrend. "We haven't announced anything with Ford in terms of what we might do together," he says. "We're just being very thoughtful of the discussions that are going on." When there is something to announce, "we would announce together."

"

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

>>"Much like Cadillac EXT, Lincoln Blackwood, Lincoln Mark LT didn't work, there is no Lexus version of the Tundra, etc.  Not a lot of market for a luxury pick up."<<

Yeah, but it'd be a mercedes, which certainly could mean a mass-volume mainstream model. 
They could have a 4-banger mid-size truck, start it at $32K and try and stick a $30K-long option list to it.
Lots of plastic cladding, 28 circular air vents, add an AMG package and boom!- another revenue stream.

Poor execution.

Ford, GM, and Ram sell plenty of their 60-80 half ton trucks in Platinum, High Country, Denali, and Limited trims. 

[G. David Felt]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Much like Cadillac EXT, Lincoln Blackwood, Lincoln Mark LT didn't work, there is no Lexus version of the Tundra, etc.  Not a lot of market for a luxury pick up.

You really need to learn your facts as the Cadillac EXT Did Work and was a very profitable model for GM under the Cadillac banner. The reason the EXT got killed if the platform died as they used the Chevrolet Avalanche, so much like how Mercedes takes a lower cheap model and slaps an AMG badge on it and charges crazy prices with a few modifications to it. Cadillac did the same with some tweaks to the body panels, interior and got a decent increase in price.

@Drew Dowdell I am sure could expand on this for you, but while the Blackwood was considered a disaster even by Ford, Cadillac moved I believe more than enough EXT to pay for itself and add profit to the bottom line while helping to pay off the R&D of the Avalanche.

After all, unlike Mercedes that after less than two years killed the pickup based on the info you supplied. The Cadillac EXT was sold from 2002 to 2013, an 11yr run.

Yet who ever posted sales figures seems to show it from 2001 to 2014.

Cadillac Escalade - Wikipedia

Considering how many Avalanches were sold by Chevrolet, I doubt the cost to badge engineer a Cadillac version was very much and that the 72,895 sold over the 14 years in the above chart is way more than many of the fringe models Mercedes or BMW sold covering every niche as you point out, profitable luxury niches yet only maybe a few hundred sold if at best by them.

Yes, you will say look how the sales dropped off in the last few years. This could be also due to not updating the Cadillac EXT Truck as much as they should have. 

Never Know, we might just get back a Cadillac EXT BEV in the Future based on the awesome Ultium Platform.

[ccap41]

That was the low times for Cadillac. It probably only cost them $38 to swap badges for the Cadillac Avalanche. but they charged $10,000 more for it!

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

That was the low times for Cadillac. It probably only cost them $38 to swap badges for the Cadillac Avalanche. but they charged $10,000 more for it!

Not a single panel was shared between the two. Same for the interior (the 2nd gen anyway). Yeah, they made some money on but it wasn’t that cheap to swap it over. There was a different engine too. 

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Not a single panel was shared between the two. Same for the interior (the 2nd gen anyway). Yeah, they made some money on but it wasn’t that cheap to swap it over. There was a different engine too. 

I was being sarcastic but they did both get the 6.2 but the EXT got 8 more horses and the same torques, from what I read. 

[G. David Felt]

38 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I was being sarcastic but they did both get the 6.2 but the EXT got 8 more horses and the same torques, from what I read. 

Thanks for the Clarification, as we all know, written Sarcasm is hard to read!  

Yes we had this:

Good Model building I think even @Robert Hall would appreciate.

Amazing that many online are asking for this combo again and photo shoppers are asking for it to come back.

? Makes me think that mid gate solution was a good thing for GM to have.

But at least some got the final editions such as the 2013 LTZ Black Diamond Edition from Chevrolet.

2013 Cadillac EXT

I will say that my favorite color was the Green LTZ Black Diamond edition they had for 2013.

Would love to have this Green on a 2023 Escalade ESV BEV.

[Robert Hall]

Don't think I've ever seen that green.   Riptide Blue was another good 'Slade color.

 

[smk4565]

9 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Poor execution.

Ford, GM, and Ram sell plenty of their 60-80 half ton trucks in Platinum, High Country, Denali, and Limited trims. 

Right, they sell high trim levels of existing trucks.  But even those are probably like a 10-20% take rate or so compared to how many Ford XLT, or Chevy LS/LT level trucks they sell.   And what you don't see is Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus pick ups and I guess Ram's luxury truck would be Alfa Romeo or Maserati.   There must not be a market for luxury brand trucks because none of them are doing it.  

[balthazar]

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But even those are probably like a 10-20% take rate or so compared to how many Ford XLT, or Chevy LS/LT level trucks they sell.

? You’re WA-AAAAAAY OFF.

At GMC, EIGHTY PERCENT (80%) of the HD trucks are either the AT4 or Denali. One lot I walked this spring had a Sierra 3500HD Denali turbo diesel stickering at $83K.

Edited September 1, 2021 by balthazar