Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[ccap41]

Mustang was a model as well, until it was a brand and they made a specific model based off the name. 

Based on that logic, why ever make a sporty SUV? I mean, "most" are just driven daily to and from work and Walmart. I'd even wager "most" Corvettes aren't driven all out every time either. Why even make the Corvette? 

[balthazar]

How is it there’s suddenly confusion on terminology?

’Mustang’ is a Ford, ‘Mustang GT’ is a Ford, ‘Mustang Mach-E’ is a Ford, Mustang Mach 1’ is a Ford, ‘Mustang GT500’ is a Ford.

Ford is the brand, not ‘Mustang’.

Other that to make money (meanwhile devaluing the model cache’), there’s no reason to build a ‘Corvette suv’.

Porsche doesn’t build their SUVs because they’re performance SUVs, they build them to keep the factories running/the lights on.

[ccap41]

I don't think you're understanding how branding within a corporation can and does work. 

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 4:20 PM, ccap41 said:

I don't think you're understanding how branding within a corporation can and does work. 

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Doesn’t seem like you know either. 

  On 8/27/2021 at 3:05 PM, ccap41 said:

sporty SUVs

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I cannot think of a more contradictory term. 

[ccap41]

  On 8/27/2021 at 4:25 PM, surreal1272 said:

Doesn’t seem like you know either. 

I cannot think of a more contradictory term. 

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Then you don't think very hard.

I didn't say "sports car SUV". "sporty" is not the same. 

Kind of like a sporty station wagon. I know that's a concept you understand. 

[balthazar]

  On 8/27/2021 at 4:20 PM, ccap41 said:

I don't think you're understanding how branding within a corporation can and does work. 

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As a verb, and applied generally-speaking under a marketing umbrella, ‘branding’ is somewhat nebulous.
As a noun and applied specifically to the auto industry, ‘brand, has an established & well-defined meaning.

[G. David Felt]

GM makes ZERO RWD / AWD Pure Sports SUV's/CUV's. I would love it being a Cadillac, Chevrolet, Corvette, GMC or Buick Performance Pure AWD/RWD SUV/CUV to replace my Chevrolet Trailblazer AWD SS.

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 5:40 PM, David said:

GM makes ZERO RWD / AWD Pure Sports SUV's/CUV's. I would love it being a Cadillac, Chevrolet, Corvette, GMC or Buick Performance Pure AWD/RWD SUV/CUV to replace my Chevrolet Trailblazer AWD SS.

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Why? Everything is going EV with them anyway so there is little to no chance of a performance ICE based SUV/CUV. Maybe they go that route once the EV transition is complete but people wishing for it right now are just pipe dreaming IMO. 

[ccap41]

Pipe dreaming is exactly what it is. There's also nothing wrong with that. 

[balthazar]

Dreaming is good.

Unrealistic planning by OEMs for the future; not so much. Gotta stay grounded…

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 6:17 PM, ccap41 said:

Pipe dreaming is exactly what it is. There's also nothing wrong with that. 

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Never said there was but it is the opposite of the reality right now. Again, when they go all EV, it may be a different story but it’s not going to happen with an ICE under the hood, no matter how much pipe dreaming that takes place. 

[Robert Hall]

  On 8/27/2021 at 5:40 PM, David said:

GM makes ZERO RWD / AWD Pure Sports SUV's/CUV's. I would love it being a Cadillac, Chevrolet, Corvette, GMC or Buick Performance Pure AWD/RWD SUV/CUV to replace my Chevrolet Trailblazer AWD SS.

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Problem is, unless they make a performance version of the Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon or Escalade, it isn't happening...the rest of the GM ICE CUV lineup is generic FWD/AWD transverse engine appliances, not the ideal platform for a performance vehicle.  GM doesn't have a proper RWD/AWD unibody SUV/CUV platform. 

  I could see maybe performance versions of their EV CUVs in the future, though...

Edited August 27, 2021 by Robert Hall

[G. David Felt]

  On 8/27/2021 at 6:01 PM, surreal1272 said:

Why? Everything is going EV with them anyway so there is little to no chance of a performance ICE based SUV/CUV. Maybe they go that route once the EV transition is complete but people wishing for it right now are just pipe dreaming IMO. 

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Not dreaming of an ICE replacement for my SS.

I want a BEV Performance SUV Replacement by any of these labels: Cadillac, Chevrolet, Corvette, GMC, Buick.

I see no reason to not take the 1,000hp tri-motor configuration from the Hummer and build a performance focused Ultium BEV AWD SUV.

I can totally see a Corvette Performance SUV BEV.

RUMOR: GM May Be Working on a Corvette-Branded Electric SUV for 2025 - Corvette: Sales, News & Lifestyle (corvetteblogger.com)

[ccap41]

  On 8/27/2021 at 7:36 PM, Robert Hall said:

Problem is, unless they make a performance version of the Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon or Escalade, it isn't happening...the rest of the GM ICE CUV lineup is generic FWD/AWD transverse engine appliances, not the ideal platform for a performance vehicle.  GM doesn't have a proper RWD/AWD unibody SUV/CUV platform. 

  I could see maybe performance versions of their EV CUVs in the future, though...

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I could me mistaken, but GM has the most generic CUV/SUV lineup of any company. Nobody has a more bland and boring lineup. The only ones that stand out at the big boys in the Tahoe, 'Burban, 'Slade. 

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 7:45 PM, David said:

I can totally see a Corvette Performance SUV BEV.

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While I agree with the rest (and that is what I getting at), just a hard no on doing that to the Vette name.

[Robert Hall]

I've thought they needed a Porsche Cayenne or Macan competitor for years...an ICE Corvette branded CUV would have been great 10 years ago...problem is, GM never developed a platform for a performance CUV. 

[G. David Felt]

  On 8/27/2021 at 7:50 PM, surreal1272 said:

While I agree with the rest (and that is what I getting at), just a hard no on doing that to the Vette name.

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My friend we will agree to disagree.  I see no problem with a Corvette and Camaro performance SUV in BEV form.

Course I can honestly see Chevrolet doing an SS version of everything leaving Corvette with a two door BEV only while everything else in the portfolio gets a performance AWD/RWD version.

GMC I can see bringing back the Typhoon and Syclone in BEV form.

Buick a BEV Grand National and Electra as BEV.

Cadillac which is slated to become all BEV by 2025 I can see having V versions of BEV.

  On 8/27/2021 at 7:54 PM, Robert Hall said:

I've thought they needed a Porsche Cayenne or Macan competitor for years...an ICE Corvette branded CUV would have been great 10 years ago...problem is, GM never developed a platform for a performance CUV. 

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This is the one thing I can see being a reality as per my post above on a Performance CUV for Corvette. A Hybrid or pure BEV as a competitor to Porsche totally makes sense to me.

[balthazar]

Anybody know why Porsche didn’t name the Cayenne the -say- ‘911-X’ ??

[Robert Hall]

  On 8/27/2021 at 8:00 PM, balthazar said:

Anybody know why Porsche didn’t name the Cayenne the -say- ‘911-X’ ??

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Well, the Cayenne isn't a rear engined CUV on the 911 platform, so it's not part of the 911 family.  Porsche, though, is supposedly working on a safari style lifted AWD 911, maybe that will be the 911X. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

And a Corvette isn’t an AWD 4-dr SUV,  so they aren’t part of the same family either, right?

By all means build a hyper-powerful ‘sporty SUV’…. Just. Don’t. Put. Corvette. In. The. Name.

[ccap41]

  On 8/27/2021 at 7:54 PM, Robert Hall said:

I've thought they needed a Porsche Cayenne or Macan competitor for years...an ICE Corvette branded CUV would have been great 10 years ago...problem is, GM never developed a platform for a performance CUV. 

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100%. It would be too late to do so now but if they developed an EV version, I'd be all for it. Heck, even 5 years ago would have been plenty fine. 

A Mustang wasn't a "AWD 4-dr SUV" either, until they made one. 

  On 8/27/2021 at 8:09 PM, balthazar said:

By all means build a hyper-powerful ‘sporty SUV’…. Just. Don’t. Put. Corvette. In. The. Name.

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Why, would it make you not buy one? ?

Edited August 27, 2021 by ccap41

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 8:00 PM, balthazar said:

Anybody know why Porsche didn’t name the Cayenne the -say- ‘911-X’ ??

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Exactly and they had no problem moving them despite not carrying over that “branding”. 

  On 8/27/2021 at 8:03 PM, Robert Hall said:

Well, the Cayenne isn't a rear engined CUV on the 911 platform, so it's not part of the 911 family.  Porsche, though, is supposedly working on a safari style lifted AWD 911, maybe that will be the 911X. 

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Then that makes a Vette SUV an even more ridiculous idea since it is not mid-engine and that most certainly will not carry over to any SUV or CUV. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

Porsche was smart enough to protect the image of the 911... especially in light of never have ANY SUV before. 

I'll bet most 911 buyers would never consider having a Cayenne/Macan.

[G. David Felt]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:02 PM, surreal1272 said:

Exactly and they had no problem moving them despite not carrying over that “branding”. 

Then that makes a Vette SUV an even more ridiculous idea since it is not mid-engine and that most certainly will not carry over to any SUV or CUV. 

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Would a RWD Vette SUV not be mid engine since the electric motors are just ahead of the rear axle area as they are on the Hummer EV? ?

[balthazar]

  On 8/27/2021 at 8:44 PM, ccap41 said:

Why, would it make you not buy one? ?

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I'm not in that market... but I was speaking to the 'big picture' of image/ legacy/ enthusiasts/ etc.

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:06 PM, David said:

Would a RWD Vette SUV not be mid engine since the electric motors are just ahead of the rear axle area as they are on the Hummer EV? ?

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Until we see an actual EV Vette, we won’t know for sure. In its current state though, it’s not possible. 

[G. David Felt]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:05 PM, balthazar said:

Porsche was smart enough to protect the image of the 911... especially in light of never have ANY SUV before. 

I'll bet most 911 buyers would never consider having a Cayenne/Macan.

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I would question that considering how few CUVs are on used sites for sale compared to the cars. ISEECARS and AUTOTRADER have thousands of the cars for sale compared to SUV/CUVs for sale on Porsche 

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:08 PM, balthazar said:

I'm not in that market... but I was speaking to the 'big picture' of image/ legacy/ enthusiasts/ etc.

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All of which can be changed by just one auto in a flash. 

Ford changing their image / legacy / enthusiasts by the Cobra and Le Mans and now the Mach-e.

Who knows what can happen with a RWD/AWD Vette BEV or SUV BEV.

[balthazar]

^ You think the Mach-E is pulling Mustang GT / GT500 owners away from their coupes??

[G. David Felt]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:17 PM, balthazar said:

^ You think the Mach-E is pulling Mustang GT / GT500 owners away from their coupes??

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No, But it very well could be adding to their household auto's they drive. Mustang sales are stagnant and Mach-e are surpassing them and 70% are conquest sales from Tesla, Nissan, etc.

[ccap41]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:08 PM, balthazar said:

I'm not in that market... but I was speaking to the 'big picture' of image/ legacy/ enthusiasts/ etc.

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I guess we will see how the Mustangs go. 

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:17 PM, balthazar said:

^ You think the Mach-E is pulling Mustang GT / GT500 owners away from their coupes??

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Away? No. 

Adding one next to their other Mustang to drive daily? Yes. 

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:22 PM, David said:

No, But it very well could be adding to their household auto's they drive. Mustang sales are stagnant and Mach-e are surpassing them and 70% are conquest sales from Tesla, Nissan, etc.

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But would those Mach-E sales be any different if it were called something else? 

[ccap41]

We will never know...

[balthazar]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:22 PM, David said:

No, But it very well could be adding to their household auto's they drive.

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But that's completely irrelevant to the image & legacy of the Mustang.

- - - - -
I don't know- we need long-term data to analyze. 

I stand firm on my rock; do not sully the names of iconic models with family-hauler versions. Just don't.

Edited August 27, 2021 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 9:31 PM, ccap41 said:

We will never know...

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Well then, it’s a little presumptuous to assume that the name is what brought the sales. If it’s a solid ride and looks good (inside and out), then naming them after a legendary nameplate like the Mustang is irrelevant. Ask Porsche about the Cayenne, as an example. 

[Robert Hall]

That is an interesting question. I wonder what percentage of 911 owners also have a Macan or Cayenne, and what percentage shop other brands for their CUV/SUV needs? 

[Robert Hall]

And about the Mach-e.  I wonder what percentage came from Mustangs or other Ford products vs conquest sales.  The one Mach-e owner I know came from a Tesla Model S that had replaced a Mustang GT a few years ago.  

[smk4565]

  On 8/27/2021 at 2:51 PM, ccap41 said:

I still see zero issues with a Corvette-branded SUV sitting along side a Corvette. Make it Cayenne-sized and competitive and it would sell like hot cakes. 

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They don't sell a 911 SUV for a reason.

  On 8/27/2021 at 3:05 PM, ccap41 said:

General Motors has zero RWD-based SUV's that compete with high end sporty SUVs. In fact, GM has zero sporty SUVs across all 17 brands. 

 

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Correct on no sporty SUVs, GM needs those, but they shouldn't be called Corvette.  They could do a Chevy whatever, Cadillac XT-whatever, and bring out a whole slew of 500 hp SUVs, but don't call an SUV a Corvette.

[Robert Hall]

  On 8/27/2021 at 10:44 PM, smk4565 said:

They don't sell a 911 SUV for a reason.

Correct on no sporty SUVs, GM needs those, but they shouldn't be called Corvette.  They could do a Chevy whatever, Cadillac XT-whatever, and bring out a whole slew of 500 hp SUVs, but don't call an SUV a Corvette.

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A Corvette branded performance CUV would likely get way more sales and attention than a Chevy <something else> branded performance CUV.  The Corvette name has a performance cache that Chevrolet by itself doesn’t have.   A Cadillac V series performance CUV could do well also. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Robert Hall

[smk4565]

  On 8/27/2021 at 7:45 PM, David said:

Not dreaming of an ICE replacement for my SS.

I want a BEV Performance SUV Replacement by any of these labels: Cadillac, Chevrolet, Corvette, GMC, Buick.

I see no reason to not take the 1,000hp tri-motor configuration from the Hummer and build a performance focused Ultium BEV AWD SUV.

I can totally see a Corvette Performance SUV BEV.

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Sounds like you need a Tesla if you want a performance electric SUV.  

[Robert Hall]

  On 8/27/2021 at 10:51 PM, smk4565 said:

Sounds like you need a Tesla if you want a performance electric SUV.  

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Or Audi. Tesla’s quality is horrible and their CUVs are shit.   I’m sure there will be more performance BEV SUVs on the market in the future. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Robert Hall

[smk4565]

  On 8/27/2021 at 10:51 PM, Robert Hall said:

A Corvette branded performance CUV would likely get way more sales attention than a Chevy <something else> branded performance CUV.  The Corvette name has a performance cache that Chevrolet by itself doesn’t have.   A Cadillac V series performance CUV could do well also. 

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But they'll trash the Corvette name if it is an SUV, much like GM has trashed the names: Grand Prix, Grand Am, Cavalier, Cobalt, Impala, LeSabre, Park Avenue, Lucerne, Deville, Seville, DTS, STS, CTS, ATS, SRX, etc.  All those cars GM trashed the name so they replaced them with a new named car, only to trash that or wait for the market to just phase it out as with the Buick LaCrosse for example.

 

I could see 50-50 odds on GM taking the Cadillac Lyric dual motor, throwing a Chevy Blazer interior in it and calling it the Corvette SUV and selling it for $90k, and it will weigh like 5400 lbs, do 0-60 in 4.9 seconds just so they can claim "sub 5-seconds 0-60" in their ads.  And the Corvette will be come to be know as a slow, mediocre handling SUV (that isn't as good as the German SUVs) and it will just trash any cache that the Corvette name still has.

Also to be noted, is the Corvette is most popular among baby boomers, the average buyer age is in the 60s on a Corvette.   Not sure this is the crowd that wants to go all in on EVs.

  On 8/27/2021 at 11:00 PM, Robert Hall said:

Or Audi. Tesla’s quality is horrible and their CUVs are &#036;h&#33;.   I’m sure there will be more performance BEV SUVs on the market in the future. 

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Well yes there will be a bunch or performance electric SUVs coming in the next year or 2.  But Tesla Model X Plaid is available for order now and does 1/4 mile under 10 seconds.  And you can still seat 7 and tow 5,000 lbs with it.

[Robert Hall]

  On 8/27/2021 at 11:03 PM, smk4565 said:

But they'll trash the Corvette name if it is an SUV, much like GM has trashed the names: Grand Prix, Grand Am, Cavalier, Cobalt, Impala, LeSabre, Park Avenue, Lucerne, Deville, Seville, DTS, STS, CTS, ATS, SRX, etc.  All those cars GM trashed the name so they replaced them with a new named car, only to trash that or wait for the market to just phase it out as with the Buick LaCrosse for example.

 

I could see 50-50 odds on GM taking the Cadillac Lyric dual motor, throwing a Chevy Blazer interior in it and calling it the Corvette SUV and selling it for $90k, and it will weigh like 5400 lbs, do 0-60 in 4.9 seconds just so they can claim "sub 5-seconds 0-60" in their ads.  And the Corvette will be come to be know as a slow, mediocre handling SUV (that isn't as good as the German SUVs) and it will just trash any cache that the Corvette name still has.

Also to be noted, is the Corvette is most popular among baby boomers, the average buyer age is in the 60s on a Corvette.   Not sure this is the crowd that wants to go all in on EVs.

Well yes there will be a bunch or performance electric SUVs coming in the next year or 2.  But Tesla Model X Plaid is available for order now and does 1/4 mile under 10 seconds.  And you can still seat 7 and tow 5,000 lbs with it.

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They have to do something to make Corvette relevant and appealing to younger buyers. No future in catering to boomers.  The C8 seems like a step in the right direction. 

[balthazar]

  On 8/27/2021 at 11:11 PM, Robert Hall said:

They have to do something to make Corvette relevant and appealing to younger buyers.

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Whew, that’s certainly a line from way back!

’Younger buyer = great necessity’ is a fallacy. ABA follows the general population trends; Lamborghini ABA is about 48 yrs. 

‘They’ were saying Cadillac needed younger buyers or it would be soon gone…. in 1975.

Corvette C8 made an earth-shattering leap onto supercar relevancy (if there were actually a methodology of charting such); your wish has been granted.

Edited August 27, 2021 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

  On 8/27/2021 at 10:51 PM, smk4565 said:

Sounds like you need a Tesla if you want a performance electric SUV.

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Sure, if you like unreliable POSs.

[smk4565]

  On 8/27/2021 at 11:11 PM, Robert Hall said:

They have to do something to make Corvette relevant and appealing to younger buyers. No future in catering to boomers.  The C8 seems like a step in the right direction. 

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The Camaro is either going to die or become a sedan.  That leaves the Corvette as the lone coupe at GM, they could do a cheaper version with a turbo 4.  Or they just hold out until you have a common EV platform, and the Corvette underpinnings are no different than any sedan or SUV since you can put just about any body style on top.  Then it doesn't really matter how many they sell because the economies of scale are built in.  

But at the end of the day, no coupe will sell well.  

[balthazar]

  On 8/28/2021 at 2:01 AM, smk4565 said:

they could do a cheaper version with a turbo 4

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Again with this?!?!?
 

[smk4565]

  On 8/27/2021 at 11:40 PM, balthazar said:

Whew, that’s certainly a line from way back!

’Younger buyer = great necessity’ is a fallacy. ABA follows the general population trends; Lamborghini ABA is about 48 yrs. 

‘They’ were saying Cadillac needed younger buyers or it would be soon gone…. in 1975.

Corvette C8 made an earth-shattering leap onto supercar relevancy (if there were actually a methodology of charting such); your wish has been granted.

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I would say that getting younger buyers isn't as important to getting buyers with money, or appealing to those with money.  Since that is where you can get profit and sell higher end models and tack on lots of options. 

C8 a supercar?  I don't think so, maybe if the ZO6/ZR1 really dial up the performance.  Part of being a supercar is also rarity and collectibility, although perhaps that is now the hyper car market and you can call a top end Corvette, a 911, AMG GT, etc super cars.  And this list of Nurburgring lap times would suggest the 911 and AMG GT are super cars:

You have the 488 Pista there at 7 minutes from 2 years ago, if the Corvette can crack the 7 minute mark then I'd say it is in supercar territory.

 

[balthazar]

It's not up to you to define. 

Sorry.

[smk4565]

  On 8/28/2021 at 2:06 AM, balthazar said:

Again with this?!?!?
 

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The Porsche 718 has a turbo 4, the Supra has one, Alpine A110 in Europe, there are 4 cylinder sports cars.  AMG has a 2.0 liter turbo 4 hybrid coming next year with 643 hp, I'd rather that that 4-cylinder than the 6.2 V8 making 495 hp in the Corvette.  Now I know GM won't do it, they'll ride the pushrod V8 to 2030 when the ICE V8 dies.

[balthazar]

  On 8/28/2021 at 2:17 AM, smk4565 said:

AMG has a 2.0 liter turbo 4 hybrid coming next year with 643 hp

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Corvette offered 640 HP 10 years ago.