Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Of course- to each his own. I find them inconsistent, overwrought and disharmonious. 

[goes off to look for one he likes...]

Same. 

[G. David Felt]

41 minutes ago, balthazar said:

The looming, unspoken 'industry shaker' is coming down the pike, and it is this:
RE Ferrari and applicable to Tesla- once a GMC Hummer is as quick as a Ferrari & Tesla, what happens to those brands, their image & valuation?

A Ferrari isn't luxurious, it isn't comfortable, it has zero utility... it's al about the image, the look, the visceral performance and the sound. Well, once everybody is electric (if that ever happens), there goes any differentiating visceral performance and that Ferrari sound. What's left is the look (and frankly; there's dozens of exotic-look cars out there)... is that enough to still warrant being 100 grand higher than more pedestrian cars?  

Exotic and ultra-high performance cars have image because their performance is world's better than the 'common rabble' That characteristic is coming to an end.

Maybe they can still charge $100,000 due to having a patented sound for the BEV!  

Much like what Ford has done for choosing the sound your Mach-e will make.

A ‘New Breed’ of Sound: Mustang Mach-E’s Sci-Fi Drive Tones Inspire a Thumping Track from Detroit Electronic Music Artist | Ford Media Center

[balthazar]

Going to continue with the sidebar.

Not having much luck w/ ferrari. The brand is very inconsistent; from some angles a given car looks great, but then you rotate around it and it tends to get seriously warped. I know; I'm supposed to love it just because it's a Ferrari, but my eye won't let me overlook inconsistent design elements / poor linework. Here's an example of what stands out to me :

 

- - - - - 

4 minutes ago, David said:

a patented sound for the BEV!

Fake, generated engine sounds = 

Edited August 3, 2021 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

27 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

There are not dozens of manufacturers that consistently make cars as beautiful as Ferrari does. There are only a few companies that I can think of that have ever put a stick to the beauty of most Ferraris. Aston Martin, Lamborghini, old Jaguars, original SLS Mercedes, ford GTs, select Porsches and that's about it. I'm sure there are others that I can't think of but there aren't many in that regard. 

I agree with Aston Martin and the Jaguar 220 XJ, a few mustangs and Camaro's, Corvettes but the rest especially Ferrari and Lamborghini do not get this man excited. 

Many of these auto's are like cloths that people have been poured into for a specific look at a stupid crazy price that really does not give any function or form other than a specific look that appeals to a small group of people.

To each their own in regards to what one likes but I feel most of the auto's you have stated have very limited appeal and it is not because they are also crazy priced.

Bulk of society needs function with form, hard pass on wasting money on them and as @balthazar has clearly pointed out, with a GMC Hummer EV Truck or SUV or even a Mach-e beating these auto's in performance, how does one continue to justify the price if not just for being a badge snob. No special sound, not comfortable, not functional for every day life, one has to question how long these specialty makers will stay in business long term.

[balthazar]

This a hodgepodge mess of elements that are fighting like the Hatfields & McCoys. No fluidity, no harmony. Looks like it was designed by committee. 

[ccap41]

35 minutes ago, David said:

with a GMC Hummer EV Truck or SUV or even a Mach-e beating these auto's in performance

In ONE metric. 

[ccap41]

24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

This a hodgepodge mess of elements that are fighting like the Hatfields & McCoys. No fluidity, no harmony. Looks like it was designed by committee. 

You can choose to not get the track version...

 

[surreal1272]

26 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You can choose to not get the track version...

 

Still a mess but to be honest, I have never been crazy about any Ferrari in the last 40 years and even if I had the dough, I wouldn't buy one because I don't want to invest in cases of fire extinguishers. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

38 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Still a mess but to be honest, I have never been crazy about any Ferrari in the last 40 years and even if I had the dough, I wouldn't buy one because I don't want to invest in cases of fire extinguishers. 

They make some beautiful machines though... I'd have a Ferrari or two if I had that kind of money but they wouldn't necessarily be at the top of my list. As beautiful as they are any exotic requires ridiculous maintenance that I wouldn't want to really keep up with, even though I'd have extra vehicles. It just seems like it would be a hassle. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

They make some beautiful machines though... I'd have a Ferrari or two if I had that kind of money but they wouldn't necessarily be at the top of my list. As beautiful as they are any exotic requires ridiculous maintenance that I wouldn't want to really keep up with, even though I'd have extra vehicles. It just seems like it would be a hassle. 

See, I just don't see that "beauty". I'm with Balth. That "beauty" is a mess several different design cues going on with most of their  cars these days. Just way over done and no real cohesion to me.

[ccap41]

Balth not liking them doesn't surprise me one bit but I'm surprised you don't think modern Ferraris are attractive. 

New 296 GTB for good measure. 

[G. David Felt]

23 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Balth not liking them doesn't surprise me one bit but I'm surprised you don't think modern Ferraris are attractive. 

New 296 GTB for good measure. 

What an ugly mess, the front end looks like it was a big mouth billy bass that got stepped on and flattened to a point of it just sucking.

Yea, I see nothing attractive about this car at all!

This 1991 Chevrolet GTZ Beretta looks better than that Ferrari!

[surreal1272]

31 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Balth not liking them doesn't surprise me one bit but I'm surprised you don't think modern Ferraris are attractive. 

30 years ago, I might have felt different but my current design tastes just do not jive with what Ferrari is offering. 

1 minute ago, David said:

What an ugly mess, the front end looks like it was a big mouth billy bass that got stepped on and flattened to a point of it just sucking.

Yea, I see nothing attractive about this car at all!

This 1991 Chevrolet GTZ Beretta looks better than that Ferrari!

Okay so that might taking it a bit far.

Edited August 3, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

David being overly dramatic: 

[G. David Felt]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

David being overly dramatic: 

The Berretta GTZ was roomy and I fit in it just fine.  

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, balthazar said:

The looming, unspoken 'industry shaker' is coming down the pike, and it is this:
RE Ferrari and applicable to Tesla- once a GMC Hummer is as quick as a Ferrari & Tesla, what happens to those brands, their image & valuation?

A Ferrari isn't luxurious, it isn't comfortable, it has zero utility... it's al about the image, the look, the visceral performance and the sound. Well, once everybody is electric (if that ever happens), there goes any differentiating visceral performance and that Ferrari sound. What's left is the look (and frankly; there's dozens of exotic-look cars out there)... is that enough to still warrant being 100 grand higher than more pedestrian cars?  

Exotic and ultra-high performance cars have image because their performance is world's better than the 'common rabble' That characteristic is coming to an end.

Perhaps, but a Ferrari is still going to handle corners better than an EV truck or even something like a Model S, because Ferrari can build that car from carbon fiber and lightweight materials and undercut other EV's on weight.    And they can digitize the sound, it's lame but cars pump in fake sound now with gas engines, no reason they can't do it on an EV.  And it will still be a Ferrari, and the Ferrari name makes it worth 100 grand more than other cars.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Balth not liking them doesn't surprise me one bit but I'm surprised you don't think modern Ferraris are attractive. 

New 296 GTB for good measure. 

Beancounters ate GM now wondering how they can sell a V6 Corvette for $321,000 base price.

[G. David Felt]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Perhaps, but a Ferrari is still going to handle corners better than an EV truck or even something like a Model S, because Ferrari can build that car from carbon fiber and lightweight materials and undercut other EV's on weight.    And they can digitize the sound, it's lame but cars pump in fake sound now with gas engines, no reason they can't do it on an EV.  And it will still be a Ferrari, and the Ferrari name makes it worth 100 grand more than other cars.

And again you have stated a Vaporware product as Ferrari has nothing of what you state. ?

[balthazar]

• Half of my truck is aluminum (tailgate, hood, all 4 doors).
• A ferrari with enough batteries to beat a Tesla will weigh 4500 lbs. They’re already made mostly of plastics, alum, FG & CF- smk talks about them like they’re all-steel bodies now.

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Balth not liking them doesn't surprise me one bit…

I’m a connoisseur of Good Taste.

[smk4565]

31 minutes ago, balthazar said:

• Half of my truck is aluminum (tailgate, hood, all 4 doors).
• A ferrari with enough batteries to beat a Tesla will weigh 4500 lbs. They’re already made mostly of plastics, alum, FG & CF- smk talks about them like they’re all-steel bodies now.

I’m a connoisseur of Good Taste.

A Ferrari 296 is lighter than a Corvette, the Ferrari 488 is 300 lbs lighter than a Corvette, it is lighter than a Porsche 718 too.  I think Ferrari could make a sub 4,000 lb EV, which makes their weight 1,000 less than what a lot of others will be probably.  The 488 is a 3,000 lbs car, take out 600 lbs for engine and transmission, add 1500 lbs of batteries and electric motors and it is still 3900 lbs.  And if battery tech is better by 2030, maybe it is a 1000 lbs of battery and only a 3400 lb car.

[surreal1272]

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A Ferrari 296 is lighter than a Corvette, the Ferrari 488 is 300 lbs lighter than a Corvette, it is lighter than a Porsche 718 too.  I think Ferrari could make a sub 4,000 lb EV, which makes their weight 1,000 less than what a lot of others will be probably.  The 488 is a 3,000 lbs car, take out 600 lbs for engine and transmission, add 1500 lbs of batteries and electric motors and it is still 3900 lbs.  And if battery tech is better by 2030, maybe it is a 1000 lbs of battery and only a 3400 lb car.

You're right. It's lighter, it has 300 more HP, costs $200K more than a Vette, yet runs the same 0-60 time (2.9 seconds) and a dam near 1.4 mile so what exactly is the point of the weight savings, the CF panels, and the 300 extra ponies? Oh yeah, that name that runs side by side with a sub-$100K Chevrolet. In other words, outside of the name you value so much, it offers no real upsell over the Vette unless you just really really love putting out engine fires. I wouldn't trust Ferrari with a D cell battery much less an entire EV.

 

And there is no way in hell that Ferrari can make a sub 4,000lb. EV without massive compromises. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

55 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You're right. It's lighter, it has 300 more HP, costs $200K more than a Vette, yet runs the same 0-60 time (2.9 seconds) and a dam near 1.4 mile so what exactly is the point of the weight savings, the CF panels, and the 300 extra ponies? Oh yeah, that name that runs side by side with a sub-$100K Chevrolet. In other words, outside of the name you value so much, it offers no real upsell over the Vette unless you just really really love putting out engine fires. I wouldn't trust Ferrari with a D cell battery much less an entire EV.

 

And there is no way in hell that Ferrari can make a sub 4,000lb. EV without massive compromises. 

I don't value the Ferrari brand name but others do.  Obviously Mercedes has hammered them in Formula 1 the past 8 years and I don't see Ferrari holding the Nurburgring lap record.  And no doubt the AMG One will shatter any performance metric the SF90 sets.  I don't like Ferraris, but obviously people pay big money for them, new and classics, people will spend millions on one.

[surreal1272]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't value the Ferrari brand name but others do.  Obviously Mercedes has hammered them in Formula 1 the past 8 years and I don't see Ferrari holding the Nurburgring lap record.  And no doubt the AMG One will shatter any performance metric the SF90 sets.  I don't like Ferraris, but obviously people pay big money for them, new and classics, people will spend millions on one.

All those words yet you ignored the core parts of the argument. Like Benz, that name really doesn’t mean Jack when it gets run down by “lowly” Chevrolets (unless they’re seven figure vaporware cars). 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

I’m a connoisseur of Good Taste.

Doesn't everybody believe that in themselves? 

14 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

You're right. It's lighter, it has 300 more HP, costs $200K more than a Vette, yet runs the same 0-60 time (2.9 seconds) and a dam near 1.4 mile so what exactly is the point of the weight savings, the CF panels, and the 300 extra ponies? Oh yeah, that name that runs side by side with a sub-$100K Chevrolet. In other words, outside of the name you value so much, it offers no real upsell over the Vette unless you just really really love putting out engine fires. I wouldn't trust Ferrari with a D cell battery much less an entire EV.

 

And there is no way in hell that Ferrari can make a sub 4,000lb. EV without massive compromises. 

I would safely assume beyond 60mph the 488 is walking and jogging away from the base Vette. 60mph is nothing these days in performance cars. 

[oldshurst442]

I have a feeling that Tesla succeeded and continues to succeed DESPITE Elon Musk...

I read recent stories of him being a loose canon. Very authoritarian and not in a good way.

Oh well...what Tesla faces now is an onslaught of various competition from all kinds of manufacturers whose EV technology is at the very least on par with Tesla's.  

The competition has caught up.    Their vehicles are new, fresh.  And THAT is ALWAYS important in the market place.

Tesla has a bigger uphill to climb than just to get the tech right and perfected. 

Tesla has a bigger uphill to climb than just to get people to buy EVs.

Tesla has a bigger uphill to climb than just to get their manufacturing hell (because it STILL a thing) under control.

Tesla's next battleground is again within itself but not directly within itself like it is with figuring out how to build cars...but to convince people to buy their 2nd generation of EV cars...

Tesla has to find a new design language. And as we all know, that is a TALL order for ANY manufacturer.

Here we are, dissing Corvettes and Porsches and Ferraris, but all these brands have ALL tested the test of time within MULTIPLE generations spanning DECADES.  MANY decades, not just 1 or 2.  More like 5 and 6 decades...

Mercedes...HA HA HA

Mercedes hasnt offered  ONE viable EV to date.  

One particular person laughs at GM and FoMoCo yet both of these American brands have SUCCESFULLY manufactured an EV or two that not only did well within the engineering specs of Tesla, but also in the marketplace.  Mercedes has NOT done anything on those two levels...

Its a small, personal rhetoric I made, but its close to the truth and reality of where Tesla stands in the marketplace and what happens to Tesla in the next decade. 

Its not their tech that is in question here. Its not even their manufacturing ability. Its their next generation of corporate design language that needs to be accepted in the marketplace because all else IS equal amongst its competition...   By the looks of Ford's design language of the Mach E and all other EVs, GM's. Lucid's and everybody else, these designs look like winners in the market place. Hoping that Tesla's design is special and awesome because by the way the Cybertruck is going, the future does not look good... 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I would safely assume beyond 60mph the 488 is walking and jogging away from the base Vette. 60mph is nothing these days in performance cars.

I agree with this statement. yet...its a tired old argument.

10.6 @ 135 or so MPH  versus 11.2 @ 122 MPH or so.   

So yeah...

On the 'base' 488, its got close to 200 HP and 60 ft/lbs of torque more than the Vette.

Considering the price tag difference, the 488, as pointed out, is 200-300 pounds lighter than the Vette. That price difference equals to more expensive, lighter materials being used for the Ferrari.

The Vette's engineering prowess is NOT how the power is put down and the numbers being accomplished as compared to Ferraris, Porsches, McLarens, Lambos....

The Vette's engineering prowess is how all that is being translated, by the level of high technology being used AT A PRICE POINT being MASS PRODUCED and BEING CONSISTANT from car to car, and doing that from year to year, decade to decade, generation after generation keeping up with cars that cost 2-3-4-5 times as much.

We shouldnt be putting down Vettes in relation to Ferraris and Porsches.

We shouldnt be putting down Ferraris and Porsches in relation to Vettes either. 

HOWEVER, I REALLY like to see what Ferrari could do, PERFORMANCE wise, within the SAME price point and BUDGET that Chevrolet and Corvette engineers have to deal with...

I dont care what Ferrari sells their cars at, if people buy them at any MSRP, good on Ferrari, but  I really do want to see what Ferrari engineering could do with a Corvette budget regarding engineering...

We have already seen what Porsche has done in this 'Corvette' situation.

1. Porsche 914

2. Porsche 924, 944, 964

3. Porsche 928

ALL PERFORMANCE FAILURES as compared to the Corvette.   (I am STRICTLY talking about PERFORMANCE and NOT sales)

The ONLY one that has succeeded in keeping up with the Corvette is the Cayman/Boxster. It comes up short ONLY because the Cayman/Boxster could EASILY outperform the 911 but Porsche does NOT what to cripple the 911 that way so they INTENTIONALLY keep the Cayman/Boxster at bay. Which means that the Cayman/Boxster could really mess up the Corvette. But then again, how much more engineering costs would go up when higher performance upgrades happen to the Cayman/Boxster to put the bloody nose to the Corvette?

THAT is what makes modern Corvettes so awesome. Its NOT the performance numbers by themselves. Its coupled with the fact that those numbers are accomplished to a PRICE POINT both in an engineering budget and a relatively low MSRP...

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

The Vette's engineering prowess is how all that is being translated, by the level of high technology being used AT A PRICE POINT being MASS PRODUCED and BEING CONSISTANT from car to car, and doing that from year to year, decade to decade, generation after generation keeping up with cars that cost 2-3-4-5 times as much.

THAT is what makes modern Corvettes so awesome. Its NOT the performance numbers by themselves. Its coupled with the fact that those numbers are accomplished to a PRICE POINT both in an engineering budget and a relatively low MSRP...

 

You are making 2 different arguments.  On one hand saying the Corvette can keep up with the exotics but on the other saying that even though the Corvette is down on power or speed from a Ferrari, but it is cheaper, so that is why.   The Corvette makes a great performance per dollar argument, but it is not a better performer than the exotics and super cars.

And on the flip side, what is stopping GM from making a $300,000 car?  Whether it be sports car, sedan, SUV or whatever.  If GM engineering is that good, they should be able to build a vehicle at that price point and sell it.

[G. David Felt]

Now we can understand why Tesla is opening up their Charging network to all BEVs and changing over to the industry standard plugs. MONEY, Yup, as part of the huge infrastructure bill, you have to support ALL BEV auto's to get funding and this will allow Tesla to open up more stations faster.

Tesla opening Supercharger network will enable access to new $7.5 billion EV funding in US - Electrek

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

You are making 2 different arguments.

And you are conflating his argument and putting words in his mouth.

 

And I have already shown you where the Vette runs neck and neck with one Exotic (The 296 GTB) while being DOWN 300HP. (identical 0-60 time, for example).

 

And GM doesn't need build a $300K car when their $100K car already punches the big boys in the mouth with just their BASE MODEL VETTE (a fact you are clearly ignoring here). What happens when the Z06 or ZR1 (with a possible EV connection) comes out? What will you long list of excuses be then? BTW, that $300K Ferrari is really a $200K Ferrari but we will just skip that little fact too. I mean, it should be more pressing to you that GM can get as much performance out of a $100K car than companies like Ferrari can get out of $300K car. Like Olds said, what would you get from Ferrari for $100K? Go ahead and answer that one before moving that bar of yours again.

Edited August 5, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

"Ferrari should build a circa $60K V-6-powered car... so they can sell more product."

[ccap41]

I do think it would be awesome if Cadillac made a 250-350k super car, just because. 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

And you are conflating his argument and putting words in his mouth.

 

And I have already shown you where the Vette runs neck and neck with one Exotic (The 296 GTB) while being DOWN 300HP. (identical 0-60 time, for example).

 

And GM doesn't need build a $300K car when their $100K car already punches the big boys in the mouth with just their BASE MODEL VETTE (a fact you are clearly ignoring here). What happens when the Z06 or ZR1 (with a possible EV connection) comes out? What will you long list of excuses be then? BTW, that $300K Ferrari is really a $200K Ferrari but we will just skip that little fact too. I mean, it should be more pressing to you that GM can get as much performance out of a $100K car than companies like Ferrari can get out of $300K car. Like Olds said, what would you get from Ferrari for $100K? Go ahead and answer that one before moving that bar of yours again.

The C8 with Z51 is a half second faster around the Nurburgring than a BMW M4 competition, half second slower than an M5 CS.  That’s not Ferrari territory and both those BMW’s have a back seat.  
 

And for $100k the Ferrari you’d get is a Maserati Ghibli or Alfa Romeo Guilia Quadrafiglio.

[surreal1272]

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The C8 with Z51 is a half second faster around the Nurburgring than a BMW M4 competition, half second slower than an M5 CS.  That’s not Ferrari territory and both those BMW’s have a back seat.  
 

And for $100k the Ferrari you’d get is a Maserati Ghibli or Alfa Romeo Guilia Quadrafiglio.

Thanks for not disappointing me with the bar moving. In any other comparison with Tesla, you constantly point out 0-60 but when I show you that a base model Vette runs the EXACT same damn time as the Ferrari 296GTB, you change the criteria yet again. Just stop this non-sense already.

 

And neither the Ghibli or Alfa can touch the Vette so thanks for proving my point about what you get for $100K from Italy lol.

37 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I do think it would be awesome if Cadillac made a 250-350k super car, just because. 

With the future plans for EVs, that could be a possibility although not entirely necessary. 

[surreal1272]

@smk4565 Since this about Tesla and not the Vette, go ahead and defend the fact the Model S had to be heavily modified to get an unofficial run to beat the Taycan, with a time that really wasn’t much better than said Vette. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/10/20/porsche-tesla-nurburgring/

Edited August 5, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

On 8/3/2021 at 3:19 PM, David said:

What an ugly mess, the front end looks like it was a big mouth billy bass that got stepped on and flattened to a point of it just sucking.

Yea, I see nothing attractive about this car at all!

This 1991 Chevrolet GTZ Beretta looks better than that Ferrari!

I'm sure I've mentioned it here before but my first car was a Beretta Z26. it looked just like this with different wheels but dark purple. I did love that car and if I ever fell into millions of dollars, I'd love to get one and convert it to RWD with some LS under the hood attached to a 6-spd, just to make it fun to drive. 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I do think it would be awesome if Cadillac made a 250-350k super car, just because. 

 

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

 

With the future plans for EVs, that could be a possibility although not entirely necessary. 

 

When Cadillac sowed us the mid-engine Cien in 2002, I was all in for a Cadillac supercar.  At a time when it was hip and cool to do mid-engine supercars.  Everybody had a concept or actually produce one. Cadillac did not, however,  produce it. It was featured in a movie thought and it was a great way to fantasize what a 300 000 dollar mid-engined supercar from Cadillac could be.

When Cadillac then made the Evoq sports car and actually did produce it calling it the XLR based on a advanced Corvette C5 platform that was a precursor to the C6 platform that Corvette didnt have just yet...I was again all on board for Cadillac's attempt  to be yet another follower as THIS was the way everybody else was trying to market themselves.

At the same time of the Cien, Cadillac also gave us a V16 cruiser concept that better fit Cadillac's image. They didnt produce that one either. 

By the time the Ciel  concept came around, I was in between thought processes on what Cadillac should produce. The El Miraj came and went and Cadillac didnt produce ANY of these concepts but by this time, I had made up my mind that in MY opinion, Cadillac for me, is NOT a sports car, hypercar type of brand. 

Cadillac was always a boulevardier brand.   A cruising brand rather than a speedy one.

In terms of alcoholic drinks, a Martini shaken not stirred.  A Cognac neat or on the rocks.  A LITERAL boulevardier drink.  

In terms of alcoholic drinks, Cadillac having sports cars are akin to shots.  Alabama slammers, tequila lime shots with lime. Sex on the Beach...   THIS is NOT Cadillac...

 

Youthful. Promiscuous. Sexy.

Not Cadillac DESPITE wanting to be younger.

Maybe Pontiac if we are talking about GM? 

Definitely Lamborghini!  

Having sports cars and hypercars  at Cadillac is like this:

and this

Although THIS IS Cadillac

 

Let the other brands debase themselves to that 

(You see...Lamborghini!!!)

 

Cadillac is more akin to this

 

Similar...

but there is a fine line and difference between the debauchery.

 

In the 1980s, cocaine and wild parties skewed the arrogance factor towards the adolescent...

Cadillac is arrogant luxury. But not adolescent.  Supercars are adolescent.... 

Yuppies are new money. Newer money than Cadillac.  Rolls is the old, stick up your a$$ conservative money.  Cadillac came along and still kept the sophisticated aspect of it, but SHOWED YOU in FULL display how filty rich you are.  Rolls Royce too, but there was a hint of understatement there.  The 1980s came along, yuppies and white collar crime con artists with their cocaine fueled state of mind drew us back to our teenaged ways.     

Cadillac shoudnt go this route is what Im trying to say...    Its not them. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Thanks for not disappointing me with the bar moving. In any other comparison with Tesla, you constantly point out 0-60 but when I show you that a base model Vette runs the EXACT same damn time as the Ferrari 296GTB, you change the criteria yet again. Just stop this non-sense already.

Yet...he mentions cars that are ABOVE their base offerings. HE ignores the fact that the (new gen) 3 Series in Europe is one small step above entry level econobox compact car with a lowly 2.0 liter  4 cylinder engine producing 150 horsepower 0-60 in 9 seconds...     

There is a 330 3 Series with a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder that is the base model in North America that does 0-60 in 5 seconds...with a price tag of starting at 40 000 US dollars...

But NONE of THOSE comes CLOSE to ANY Vette EVER produced...    Sorry, a 1953 inline stove bolt 6 Corvette DID in fact produce 150 HP and had similar 0-60 times  to that 2020 318 Bimmer... 

 

I decided to move the  bar MYSELF  for a change...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

@smk4565 Since this about Tesla and not the Vette, go ahead and defend the fact the Model S had to be heavily modified to get an unofficial run to beat the Taycan, with a time that really wasn’t much better than said Vette. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/10/20/porsche-tesla-nurburgring/

I am not a Tesla fan, I don’t need to defend them.  Let’s see what the production version Plaid does on the Ring.  If they can’t beat the Taycan maybe Tesla is a one trick straight line pony.

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yet...he mentions cars that are ABOVE their base offerings. HE ignores the fact that the (new gen) 3 Series in Europe is one small step above entry level econobox compact car with a lowly 2.0 liter  4 cylinder engine producing 150 horsepower 0-60 in 9 seconds...     

There is a 330 3 Series with a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder that is the base model in North America that does 0-60 in 5 seconds...with a price tag of starting at 40 000 US dollars...

But NONE of THOSE comes CLOSE to ANY Vette EVER produced...    Sorry, a 1953 inline stove bolt 6 Corvette DID in fact produce 150 HP and had similar 0-60 times  to that 2020 318 Bimmer... 

 

I decided to move the  bar MYSELF  for a change...

 

 

 

 

 

An M4 Comp is about $75k unless you option it up, similar to Corvette pricing.

There is also only one Corvette engine now, I am still waiting in the Black Series and GT2 RS beater.  Until they get something faster the C8 Z51 is all they got.

Probably true that a Cadillac hyper car won’t do anything for them, but I just said a $250-300k vehicle, could be an SUV, sedan, convertible, etc.  

Tesla too should go up market with a more luxurious product, their interiors aren’t that great.

[surreal1272]

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

An M4 Comp is about $75k unless you option it up, similar to Corvette pricing.

As you have pointed out time after time, no one is cross shopping those two and it should be pretty obvious as to why (and no, it has nothing to with brand cachet). And if that BMW is so damn great at that price, then that makes the $300K Ferrari even more laughable but again, that wasn’t your goal here. It was to move the bar after your previous arguments were called out. 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I am still waiting in the Black Series and GT2 RS beater.

Why arent you waiting for a Corvette Z06 and ZR1  Porsche GT2 RS and  BMW M4 Comp beater?

Dont reply, I dont care. 

I just wanted to point out your hypocrisy and American self hatred. 

 

 

[smk4565]

54 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

As you have pointed out time after time, no one is cross shopping those two and it should be pretty obvious as to why (and no, it has nothing to with brand cachet). And if that BMW is so damn great at that price, then that makes the $300K Ferrari even more laughable but again, that wasn’t your goal here. It was to move the bar after your previous arguments were called out. 

A Ferrari has greater performance than an M4, a Ferrari ownership experience is also quite different than a BMW ownership experience.  

[smk4565]

4 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Why arent you waiting for a Corvette Z06 and ZR1  Porsche GT2 RS and  BMW M4 Comp beater?

Dont reply, I dont care. 

I just wanted to point out your hypocrisy and American self hatred. 

 

 

The fastest cars around a track that are available now are the Black Series and GT2 RS.  The fastest car is the Bugatti Chiron at 273 mph.  Tesla does have great 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but the Ferrari SF90 is right there with it, the Rimac is even faster than the Tesla, but I am not really calling that a "production" car.  They are all European cars.  I don't know if there has ever been an American car under 7 minutes at the Nurburgring, let alone 6:43. There is no 275 mph Corvette or Cadillac Cien to take down Bugatti.  And the AMG One hasn't even hit the track yet, which will just shatter anything the Black Series or GT2 GS have done, probably set a 1/4 mile record.  All the high performance cars are from Europe.

And it isn't just American cars dropping the call, Japanese and South Korea too.  Genesis, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura are all out there, they tossed out short lived stuff like the LF-A and NSX (which is officially dead in 2022) which aren't as fast as European sports cars, the now super dated Nissan GT-R, was impressive in 2009, not anymore.  Where are they all at?  I don't think one Asian car company has a 600 hp car right now, not one 200 mph car either.  

Mercedes, Porsche and BMW make sedans that can beat a C8 Z51 around the Nurburgring, why doesn't Cadillac or the Japanese?  And then you have 290 hp "F-Sport" cars or A-Spec Acura's with 350 hp that they think are performance.  Those people are clueless.  They need to step their game up.  At least Tesla has brought performance to the table.

 

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

C8 Z51

Base Corvette...

 

 

But for the love of God...dont ever reply to me ever again... 

Please....Im begging you...

[oldshurst442]

Maybe Elon Musk is shooting his own Tesla foot and maybe THAT will destroy Tesla and coincidentally that will enable the competition to eat up Tesla?

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/elon-musk-says-tesla-wasnt-142537743.html

Biden doesnt invite Tesla, despite Tesla outselling all other in North America concerning EVs. is it because people in the know-how that actually will make the EV thing happen with laws and money dont have faith in Tesla anymore?

Why?

Some say because unions. But maybe other reasons too?

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/tesla-chinese-rivals-xpeng-li-062943833.html

Quote

Tesla, meanwhile, is cutting the prices of its models in China to shore up its popularity and sales amid a series of issues with buyers regarding the quality of its cars.

On Friday, Tesla announced that the price of the standard range Model 3 after subsidy would be reduced by 15,000 yuan (US$2,320), or 6 per cent, to 235,900 yuan.

https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/3142148/tesla-drops-down-rankings-below-average-quality-mainland-auto?utm_source=Yahoo&utm_medium=partner&utm_campaign=contentexchange&utm_content=3143475

 

Quote

 

Tesla has dropped to ‘below average quality’ while three leading Chinese electric vehicle start-ups are now making ‘top-quality cars’ in their respective segments, according to a new survey, ratcheting up pressure on the global leader in the world’s largest automotive market.

Tesla’s Model 3 ranked third in the midsize battery electric vehicle (BEV) segment, falling behind BYD Co’s Han BEV and Xpeng’s P7, according to the JD Power 2021 China New Energy Vehicle Initial Quality Study released on Thursday. This puts Elon Musk’s firm in the ‘below average quality’ segment, according to the survey.

The survey inspected 50 models from 28 different car brands in 53 cities across the mainland. It was based on responses from 3,976 vehicle owners who bought their cars between September 2020 and March 2021.

This compares with an earlier survey, the auto consulting firm’s 2020 China New Energy Vehicle Experience Index Study published last year, which ranked Tesla’s Shanghai-built sedan in second place behind Nio’s ES6 in the same segment. This survey has now been renamed as the Initial Quality Study, JD Power said.

 

 

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/california-couples-tesla-caught-fire-154040409.html

Quote

A California couple has said that their Tesla Model S caught fire while charging in their garage overnight, spread to a second Tesla vehicle before engulfing their house in flames.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/25/business/tesla-autopilot-ntsb.html

Quote

 

The agency, the National Transportation Safety Board, criticized several institutions for failing to do more to prevent the crash, including the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration for what some board members described as a hands-off approach to regulating automated-vehicle technology.

“We urge Tesla to continue to work on improving Autopilot technology and for NHTSA to fulfill its oversight responsibility to ensure that corrective action is taken when necessary,” Robert L. Sumwalt, the board’s chairman, said. “It’s time to stop enabling drivers in any partially automated vehicle to pretend that they have driverless cars.”

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/5/22563751/tesla-elon-musk-full-self-driving-admission-autopilot-crash

 

 

Quote

 

Tesla CEO Elon Musk is finally admitting that he underestimated how difficult it is to develop a safe and reliable self-driving car. To which the entire engineering community rose up as one to say, “No duh.”

Or at least that’s how it should have happened in a just world. Instead, all the Tesla sycophants and ass-kissers on Twitter told Musk to keep up the good work, that they believed in him, and encouraged him to hurry up and roll out the latest version of his “Full Self-Driving” software that, it’s worth pointing out, does not enable a Tesla vehicle to drive itself without input from the driver.

MUSK HAS A LONG HISTORY OF OVER PROMISING AND UNDER DELIVERING

Musk has a long history of over promising and under delivering when it comes to his company’s so-called “Full Self-Driving” software. He did it in 2018, when he promised that the “long awaited” V9 (Version 9) would begin rolling out in August. He did it again in 2019, proclaiming that “a year from now” there would be “over a million cars with full self-driving, software, everything.”

He was back at it again this past weekend, promising that “FSD 9 beta is shipping soon,” with an added “I swear!” just in case you had any doubts about his solemnity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Maybe the powers that be are just sick and tired with Elon Musk and Tesla no longer gets a free pass?

Maybe Elon Musk needs to step down...

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A Ferrari has greater performance than an M4, a Ferrari ownership experience is also quite different than a BMW ownership experience.  

And you missed the point by a country mile. 

[balthazar]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The fastest car is the Bugatti Chiron at 273 mph.  Tesla does have great 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, but the Ferrari SF90 is right there with it, the Rimac is even faster than the Tesla, but I am not really calling that a "production" car.  They are all European cars.  I don't know if there has ever been an American car under 7 minutes at the Nurburgring, let alone 6:43. There is no 275 mph Corvette or Cadillac Cien to take down Bugatti.  And the AMG One hasn't even hit the track yet, which will just shatter anything the Black Series or GT2 GS have done, probably set a 1/4 mile record.  All the high performance cars are from Europe.

Fastest top speed car is the (Shelby) SSC Tuatara, which ran a 2-way average of 316 MPH (unofficial). It did a 1-way run at 331 MPH. It's verified 2-way run was 282 MPH. SSC is American, based in Washington State.

Also, the Hennessey Vemon GT did a 1-way run of 270 MPH.

AMG One is only projected to go about 220.

Edited August 6, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

31 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Fastest top speed car is the (Shelby) SSC Tuatara, which ran a 2-way average of 316 MPH (unofficial). It did a 1-way run at 331 MPH. It's verified 2-way run was 282 MPH. SSC is American, based in Washington State.

Also, the Hennessey Vemon GT did a 1-way run of 270 MPH.

AMG One is only projected to go about 220.

But not production cars, and on a track AMG One will slaughter anything because it is made for a track, not top speed.

[surreal1272]

29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

But not production cars, and on a track AMG One will slaughter anything because it is made for a track, not top speed.

The Venom GT is, in fact, a production car of 24 copies and is real and right now unlike the still vapor-ware future car from Benz.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Fastest top speed car is the (Shelby) SSC Tuatara, which ran a 2-way average of 316 MPH (unofficial). It did a 1-way run at 331 MPH. It's verified 2-way run was 282 MPH. SSC is American, based in Washington State.

Also, the Hennessey Vemon GT did a 1-way run of 270 MPH.

AMG One is only projected to go about 220.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37101351/ssc-tuatara-did-not-break-production-car-speed-record/

"SSC Finally Admits 1750-HP Tuatara Did Not Break 300 MPH

After controversy that its first run was fake and an unsuccessful second run, Shelby Supercar admits defeat and says it's going to make another attempt to break the 300-mph barrier."

Also, Hennessey is a joke so I don't take anything they say seriously.