Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[surreal1272]

53 minutes ago, balthazar said:

No idea why Tesla would bring out a cheaper car than the $39K Model 3, especially if they are trying to paint a 'luxury brand' image. Plus, it'd torpedo their ATP.

The irony in both of those statements made by him is quite laughable. You can't be luxury and bargain bin at the same time. That has never worked out well for any brand. I don't like Cadillac having anything priced under $40K (although good luck actually finding one that cheap) while calling themselves a luxury brand. Ever since the Cimmaron days, that has been a problem for them in one fashion or another. Just my personal opinion.

[balthazar]

^ Agreed RE a sub $40K Cadillac. 
When Mercedes brought out the $29K CLA, I almost couldn't believe it. (I could, actually, because Daimler will do anything to make a buck). But Mercedes = General Motors, 'A car for every purse & purpose' approach. In other words; not a luxury brand.

Cadillac should stay exclusively upper tier. I argued against both the CT4 and XT4 as unnecessary.

[surreal1272]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ Agreed RE a sub $40K Cadillac. 
When Mercedes brought out the $29K CLA, I almost couldn't believe it. (I could, actually, because Daimler will do anything to make a buck). But Mercedes = General Motors, 'A car for every purse & purpose' approach. In other words; not a luxury brand.

Cadillac should stay exclusively upper tier. I argued against both the CT4 and XT4 as unnecessary.

Agreed on all fronts there.

[G. David Felt]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

If you buy a Tesla, you are cutting edge, tech savvy and cool, if you buy a Jaguar you have to spend the next however many years explaining to people why you bought a Jaguar.  

So let me rip apart this statement with my own knowledge of working in Tech since 1991!

Tesla DOES NOT say Cool. If it was Cool, then every Introverted Tech Worker would sell everything they had to have a Tesla and that is not happening as Millions of millions of Tech Workers do not own a Tesla. 

Cutting Edge, yes in SOME areas! They lead in Battery and Electric drive train due to being out building them longer than everyone else. With that said, the Legacy OEMs have and will catch up and surpass them due to built in suppliers, manufacturing, Century plus of building auto's on a global scale of which Tesla does not have and has continued to show it fails at as they try to re-invent the wheel, rather than learn from the history of the auto industry what works.

Cutting Edge? That is a very subjective statement as while there are millions that think Apple is the best and cutting edge, there are Billions that would rather own an Android based product and find they can do everything that Apple can do at a reduced price.

So which company is more Cutting Edge. The one that sells in small volume at a mid-range price point with an Ass Hole for a marketing talking mouth piece as CEO or a Company that serves the masses, has some high end models, but also has a better grasp on mid range and low end models?

Yes that last bit is personal opinion, but then you have not bothered to ever stick with facts as you make your own opinion based statements as facts with never actually posting factual info or links to stated trusted news sources to back up your opinion based statements.

As such, Tesla will not go away in the next decade or two, but I doubt it will reach 2240 as the company it is today, a over priced independent stock trading company.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

So why mention vans in the first place? Because you were trying to paint a rosier picture of Mercedes. There was absolutely no reason to mention it otherwise. 
 

And again, Tesla is not a luxury car company. They are a boutique car company and there is a big difference there. Outside of the fact that they are EVs, Tesla is no more of a “luxury” brand than your average Ford Mustang Mach-E.  Don’t believe me? Show me where any Tesla is more so a luxury car than your average Mercedes. Don’t worry. I’ll wait. 

of t

So again, you ignore facts and instead think your opinion trumps that. He posted that to prove that Tesla is, in fact, losing market share yet you completely ignore that FACT to give us your OPINION. See the difference there or are those poms poms blinding you while you read?

Telsa's market share in 2019 was 1% of the US market, at the end of 2020 they were at 1.99%.  of the US market, so they doubled their overall market share.  No one else is growing that fast.  Telsa sales were up 50% in 2020 when most automakers were down, Ford was down 16.1% in 2020 for example.  

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Telsa's market share in 2019 was 1% of the US market, at the end of 2020 they were at 1.99%.  of the US market, so they doubled their overall market share.  No one else is growing that fast.  Telsa sales were up 50% in 2020 when most automakers were down, Ford was down 16.1% in 2020 for example.  

Again, just throwing out numbers that ignore facts. Teslas sales are up due to adding more models not because of demand for prior existing models and you should understand the difference there. Comparing them to companies like Ford is equally ignorant of the facts. Up until the Mach-E, Ford didn't even compete with Tesla, not even cross shopped. However, since they do have the E-Mach, it makes the Y look like the hastily put together junk that it is and in places like Norway, where EVs ARE the dominant powertrain of choice, the Ford is beating Tesla. Now we get to soon the Lightning in the US show Tesla how it's done when it comes to pick ups (again, more than a century building the damn things).

 

As far as Teslas "growth, that's been real easy to do when there were NO other real players in the EV market and again, a gain due to added models. Get back to me on that "growth" in about 2-3 years and everyone else is playing the same EV game as Tesla. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

That’s actually a 100% increase (1%+1%). SALES increased by 50%.
 

You do get that as a percentage, Tesla’s marketshare increased partially BECAUSE other OEMs declined, right? 
 

As for ‘fastest growing’- that happened in 2019, when sales grew by nearly 300%. 50% sounds pretty tame in comparison…

[smk4565]

15 hours ago, balthazar said:

• Starting MSRP price is immaterial.

GMC Sierra starts at $31,795 but the bulk of them sticker for over 50% higher than that, and reach to over 150% of that. 
Are we going to only talk about the nearly non-existent $31K ones like that's what's out there selling?

Tesla's ATP is only a few thousand higher than all of General Motors, Ford, Stellantis and VW.

I got the April 2021 ATP's:

Daimler $64,900 

BMW Group   $57,777 

Tesla   $50,705

Volvo  $50,514

Ford $46,992

Stellantis $46,885

GM   $46,800

VW Group $45,649 (includes, Audi, Porsche, etc)

And the industry average was $40,476 which everyone else was below.  So Tesla is 3rd in ATP (although JLR didn't have data on the list, I assume they are over $50k).  So yes Tesla is only a few thousand higher, but it it still 3rd, or 4th assuming JLR is above them.  And Tesla has the Cybertruck that will mostly be over $50k, and the low volume 200k Roadster coming and the Model S plaid which maybe they sold some in April, but they didn't deliver them, so I don't know  how that works.  

Tesla did have a 10% drop in ATP from 2020, they were over $57,000 a year ago, but I imagine more lower priced Model 3's are available now than were last year.  BMW was down 3%, Daimler up 1%, so Tesla was 3rd in ATP a year ago as well, it was the same order for the top 4 last year.

 

10 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Even when I worked for a supplier a few years back that dealt with Tesla, they were a mess. Been told that much has not changed either. They still change suppliers on a dime.  And they barely keep the ones they have in the loop for changes that they do in their models! Elon needs to spend a bit more time running his car company than he does worrying about things like space. They really, really need folks in their company who have real auto company experience-so that they have both communication and proper layouts. It’s why things never really change with them. It’s the logistics that Ford and GM have that is going to whip Tesla hard. Ford is kinda struggling a bit with the E Mach- but they a making progress very quickly-something that Tesla has not really done for years. I too want to see Tesla to do fine- but they really need to get their “poop” together.......

Ford who can't build the F150 and GM who can't build the Corvette due to supplier issues are the poster children for logistics?   F150 sales were down 30% in May because of supplier issues.   But yes Tesla needs to get things together, but they seem to be improving at that.

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Cadillac ATP-$58K in 2021 (a record for them BTW)

Tesla ATP-$50K (down $6K from 2020 despite them raising their prices on three or four occasions over the last year).

 

So basically despite the fact that Tesla has two models above $100K (to the 1 Escalade for Cadillac over that price), Cadillac has a much higher ATP than Tesla which means that MOST of the Teslas sold are FAR south of $100K. What to try that again? 

Tesla has more volume than Cadillac, thus generates more revenue.  The Model 3 outsells CT4/CT5 probably like 10 to 1, so of course Tesla's ATP is lower than Cadillacs.   Cadillac has a good ATP because the CT4 has dismal sales and the CT5 and XT4 don't sell well for their class.  If those sold at class average rates, it would drag down the average that the Escalade and XT6 are lifting up.   Cadillac could also kill everything except the Escalade and sell only 1 product and get an $90k ATP, but I am not sure that is a good business model.

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

No idea why Tesla would bring out a cheaper car than the $39K Model 3, especially if they are trying to paint a 'luxury brand' image. Plus, it'd torpedo their ATP.

Because volume and revenue.  And I think Elon has a "Tesla for every person and every purpose" sort of mentality, which is why he sees need for a self driving semi-truck, a 200k sports car, a $30k compact car.  

[G. David Felt]

Yes depending on the source, a few dollars difference:

Average New-Vehicle Prices Drop 2.3% in Q1 Contributing to Improved Vehicle Affordability - Cox Automotive Inc. (coxautoinc.com)

$40,472 up 4.3% from 2020 for March 2021.

New Models entering the BEV segment are driving down prices and Tesla is having the largest price drop on ATP.

Full report is here: Average New-Vehicle Prices Remain Above $40,000 Threshold, Increase More Than 4% Year-Over-Year, According to Kelley Blue Book - Apr 15, 2021 (kbb.com)

A more accurate look is by segment:

Very interesting assessment of the BEV segment. QUOTE: While electrified vehicle consideration increases, automakers have continued producing more affordable options. Ford has introduced the Mustang Mach-E, which is reasonably priced with an average transaction price of $56,000 in March 2021, just above the segment average. The new Volkswagen ID.4, which began sales in Q1, is transacting at $45,287. Additionally, because Tesla is the brand with the majority market share, the drop in price for the Model 3 (down 7% year-over-year) and the introduction of the Model Y (priced at $54,000) has shifted the average transaction price of the segment as a whole. Lower prices for the Porsche Taycan also helped drive down average pricing in the segment.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ Agreed RE a sub $40K Cadillac. 
When Mercedes brought out the $29K CLA, I almost couldn't believe it. (I could, actually, because Daimler will do anything to make a buck). But Mercedes = General Motors, 'A car for every purse & purpose' approach. In other words; not a luxury brand.

Cadillac should stay exclusively upper tier. I argued against both the CT4 and XT4 as unnecessary.

And yet now a CLA costs more than Cadillac's most expensive sedan, yikes!

But I do agree that Cadillac should be more up market, they should have made XT5 and XT6 on rear drive platforms, offered that Blackwing V8 in them.  And they totally botched their sedan lineup over the past 10 years, which is why it is basically nothing now.  Too late to fix all that with gas engine cars, but when they go to EV, that is their chance to re-boot, and XT4 and XT5 could be killed off and replaced with a small electric SUV, and CT5 and CT4 can be killed off and replaced with an EV sedan and both can start around $50k and go up to like 80k or something.  Then you have no sub-$50k Cadillac even available.  And they still need to go above the Escalade in price, and maybe that Celestiq will be that.

[surreal1272]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And yet now a CLA costs more than Cadillac's most expensive sedan, yikes!

That’s because Mercedes has the much cheaper FWD A Class to fill that slot (which is $1K cheaper than the cheapest Cadillac CT4). Way to miss the point entirely. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, David said:

So let me rip apart this statement with my own knowledge of working in Tech since 1991!

Tesla DOES NOT say Cool. If it was Cool, then every Introverted Tech Worker would sell everything they had to have a Tesla and that is not happening as Millions of millions of Tech Workers do not own a Tesla. 

Cutting Edge, yes in SOME areas! They lead in Battery and Electric drive train due to being out building them longer than everyone else. With that said, the Legacy OEMs have and will catch up and surpass them due to built in suppliers, manufacturing, Century plus of building auto's on a global scale of which Tesla does not have and has continued to show it fails at as they try to re-invent the wheel, rather than learn from the history of the auto industry what works.

Cutting Edge? That is a very subjective statement as while there are millions that think Apple is the best and cutting edge, there are Billions that would rather own an Android based product and find they can do everything that Apple can do at a reduced price.

So which company is more Cutting Edge. The one that sells in small volume at a mid-range price point with an Ass Hole for a marketing talking mouth piece as CEO or a Company that serves the masses, has some high end models, but also has a better grasp on mid range and low end models?

Yes that last bit is personal opinion, but then you have not bothered to ever stick with facts as you make your own opinion based statements as facts with never actually posting factual info or links to stated trusted news sources to back up your opinion based statements.

As such, Tesla will not go away in the next decade or two, but I doubt it will reach 2240 as the company it is today, a over priced independent stock trading company.

Maybe the traditional OEM's will catch up and beat them.  But is Tesla outselling all those other luxury brands only because there are people that will by an EV and not consider anything else, or because people think Tesla makes a better car and people prefer their car to the other guys?  Once there are dozens of EV's out there, then we'll know.

Although I disagree on having a mouth piece owner in charge compared to one of these care-takers of the thrown appointed by the board.  Because guys like Elon, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, etc. those companies grew huge because they have the visionary inventor and marketer in charge.  Jim Farley or Mary Barra (and no offense to them) could never start a company from scratch, or take some small company and blow it up into a global power.  They are care takers, there must to maintain market share, they aren't visionaries that will come up with an idea or product and revolutionize an industry, like an Amazon, Facebook or Apple have done.

[smk4565]

16 minutes ago, David said:

Yes depending on the source, a few dollars difference:

Average New-Vehicle Prices Drop 2.3% in Q1 Contributing to Improved Vehicle Affordability - Cox Automotive Inc. (coxautoinc.com)

$40,472 up 4.3% from 2020 for March 2021.

New Models entering the BEV segment are driving down prices and Tesla is having the largest price drop on ATP.

Full report is here: Average New-Vehicle Prices Remain Above $40,000 Threshold, Increase More Than 4% Year-Over-Year, According to Kelley Blue Book - Apr 15, 2021 (kbb.com)

A more accurate look is by segment:

Very interesting assessment of the BEV segment. QUOTE: While electrified vehicle consideration increases, automakers have continued producing more affordable options. Ford has introduced the Mustang Mach-E, which is reasonably priced with an average transaction price of $56,000 in March 2021, just above the segment average. The new Volkswagen ID.4, which began sales in Q1, is transacting at $45,287. Additionally, because Tesla is the brand with the majority market share, the drop in price for the Model 3 (down 7% year-over-year) and the introduction of the Model Y (priced at $54,000) has shifted the average transaction price of the segment as a whole. Lower prices for the Porsche Taycan also helped drive down average pricing in the segment.

The break down is good, but making EV a segment doesn't make sense then you have a Leaf and Bolt with a Porsche Taycan, like putting a Miata and a 911 together and saying they are both in the 2-door car segment.  

What would be interesting to see is like Model 3 ATP vs CT4, 3-series, C-class, etc, other cars of similar size.  Or Model Y against other small crossovers like an Acura RDXor Lincoln Corsair, or Volvo XC60, those are all about the same size.

[balthazar]

38 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla has more volume than Cadillac, thus generates more revenue.

But always at a net loss. And;

39 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I am not sure that is a good business model.

 

51 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I got the April 2021 ATP's:

Daimler $64,900 

BMW Group   $57,777 

Tesla   $50,705

Corporate numbers can be interesting, but they are far less significant than what we talk about here; brand numbers. 'Daimler' includes about half a dozen semi-truck brands, which obviously elevates their numbers. 

Q2 2020 Cadillac ATP was $59,803.

[surreal1272]

59 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I got the April 2021 ATP's:

Daimler $64,900 

BMW Group   $57,777 

Tesla   $50,705

Volvo  $50,514

Ford $46,992

Stellantis $46,885

GM   $46,800

Again, skewing numbers. By brand, Cadillac has a higher ATP than Benz which is actually pretty impressive since, as you’ve stated numerous times on this site, Benz has far more $100K+ models available for sale. You can’t have it both ways, wanting individual numbers for specific cars while skipping brand ATPs to point out irrelevant corporate numbers. 

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

or because people think Tesla makes a better car and people prefer their car to the other guys?

Umm, if those people think Tesla makes a better car then they need to be better informed on their reliability and constant gesture cutting while ever increasing their prices for no damn reason. Stop making excuses and delving into obvious opinions and review the actual facts that have been presented to you here. Try it sometime. 

[surreal1272]

55 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

constant gesture cutting while ever increasing their prices

That should read “feature”, not “gesture”. Thanks again autocorrect. 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Ford who can't build the F150 and GM who can't build the Corvette due to supplier issues are the poster children for logistics?   F150 sales were down 30% in May because of supplier issues.  

You do get that those issues are not a fault of Ford or GM but more a result of a quick bounce back economy that is outpacing the supply of certain components, which faaaar different than the host issues with Tesla right? Please tell me you’re not conflating the two. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Maybe the traditional OEM's will catch up and beat them.  But is Tesla outselling all those other luxury brands only because there are people that will by an EV and not consider anything else, or because people think Tesla makes a better car and people prefer their car to the other guys?  Once there are dozens of EV's out there, then we'll know.

Although I disagree on having a mouth piece owner in charge compared to one of these care-takers of the thrown appointed by the board.  Because guys like Elon, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, etc. those companies grew huge because they have the visionary inventor and marketer in charge.  Jim Farley or Mary Barra (and no offense to them) could never start a company from scratch, or take some small company and blow it up into a global power.  They are care takers, there must to maintain market share, they aren't visionaries that will come up with an idea or product and revolutionize an industry, like an Amazon, Facebook or Apple have done.

Way to go with missing the point again and going off on Tangent.

Jim Farley and Mary Barra have both worked their way up, they are no over educated care taker of a major brand and both have worked in growing companies.

Not everyone can be Elon, Steve, Bill or Jeff and they are the Exception, not the rule to starting a company and growing it into a monster company.

As a High Tech worker that has worked at no less than 30 start ups, half having died or the technology was bought by bigger companies, the other half can be put into two groups, those that grew and those that are still small. Many start up visionaries lack the ability to grow a technology to a global size company and have stay small and known as a boutique company. The other 25% also had smart leadership but knew their limits and were bought by larger companies that could grow them. 

Example is I worked for Isilon, a network attached unstructured storage company. We grew to almost $500 million in Sales. It was stretching the ability of the executive team which had no experience with anything that big or bigger. In comes EMC and buys up the company. Most executive leadership team honored their corporate contract for a year, but then left with their money. The rest of us making a little bit, but not able to retire stayed on to grow the business and under EMC leadership we became a $1.5 billion a year product in 2yrs. Then Dell Technologies comes along and buys EMC merging it in and now we have doubled in size again in the last 2 years.

There are those that can grow a small business into a monster enterprise and those that cannot.

Tesla under Musk is struggling and while he has the Golden mouth to get people to pay crazy stock prices and finance his business, this is the biggest he has ever dealt with as he took the easy way out to riches but selling out his own tech startup as he was challenged with growing it to be even bigger.

Two different skill sets between a CEO like Jim or Mary and Musk.

Right now Tesla stock price is going down, sales are going down, ability to compete and grow in a very competitive business segment seems to be maxing out Musk's skill set. Who knows how long he will last before he takes his money and runs. He has done it before and I expect he will do it again.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Again, skewing numbers. By brand, Cadillac has a higher ATP than Benz which is actually pretty impressive since, as you’ve stated numerous times on this site, Benz has far more $100K+ models available for sale. You can’t have it both ways, wanting individual numbers for specific cars while skipping brand ATPs to point out irrelevant corporate numbers. 

Umm, if those people think Tesla makes a better car then they need to be better informed on their reliability and constant gesture cutting while ever increasing their prices for no damn reason. Stop making excuses and delving into obvious opinions and review the actual facts that have been presented to you here. Try it sometime. 

Daimler is Mercedes cars and vans, those are US market numbers, and since the vans are cheaper than the cars, that would only drop their average.  Much like BMW has Mini Cooper dragging down their average.  Mercedes and BMW both have higher averages than Cadillac, both sell way more than Cadillac.

ATP as I have said many times doesn't really matter that much, because all it measures is how well your low end cars sell vs your top end cars.  If Chevrolet stopped selling all cars except Corvette, they could have a $75,000 ATP.  But then 100% of Chevrolet dealers would go out of business.  So who really cares that the brand ATP is?  What matters is how much margin you can get in a given segment or on a given car.

Why does Tesla outsell Cadillac if Tesla is so bad?

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

That should read “feature”, not “gesture”. Thanks again autocorrect. 

You do get that those issues are not a fault of Ford or GM but more a result of a quick bounce back economy that is outpacing the supply of certain components, which faaaar different than the host issues with Tesla right? Please tell me you’re not conflating the two. 

The point was made that GM and Ford have superior supply chains and logistics than Tesla.  Yet it is GM and Ford suffering on supply chain right now, not Tesla.  Tesla has its own manufacturing issues, but their supply chain is holding up better than others.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, David said:

 

Right now Tesla stock price is going down, sales are going down, ability to compete and grow in a very competitive business segment seems to be maxing out Musk's skill set. Who knows how long he will last before he takes his money and runs. He has done it before and I expect he will do it again.

Tesla sales in 2020 up 50%

Ford sales in 2020 down 16.1%

GM sales in 2020 down 11.8%

Toyota sales in 2020 down 11.3%

Tesla is doing just fine.

[balthazar]

2020 is a grotesque anomaly, and you know that. 

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

the Model S plaid

FYI : Model S Plaid + is officially dead.
IDK about the 'Plaid -'

Edited June 7, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Tesla made 721 million in profit in 2020, almost entirely due to the sale of intangible carbon credits.

General Motors made 6.4 billion in profit in 2020.

General Motors is doing fine.
General Motors is 9 times more profitable than Tesla in 2020... 29 times more profitable if you lose the carbon credits at Tesla.

Edited June 7, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Tesla stock up 271% from its 52-wk low but is DOWN 33% from it'd peak.
TSLA is rated 'overvalued' with a minus 14% return. It has never issued a dividend.
It's price per earning ratio is a staggering 600:1 (because it doesn't make any money selling vehicles).

General Motors stock is up 207% from it's 52-wk low, but is currently at it's peak.
GM is rated 'undervalued' with a plus 13% return. Dividends are currently suspended (since 3/20). It's price per earning ratio is a solid 10.2.

General Motors is doing fine.

[smk4565]

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Tesla stock up 271% from its 52-wk low but is DOWN 33% from it'd peak.
TSLA is rated 'overvalued' with a minus 14% return. It has never issued a dividend.
It's price per earning ratio is a staggering 600:1 (because it doesn't make any money selling vehicles).

General Motors stock is up 207% from it's 52-wk low, but is currently at it's peak.
GM is rated 'undervalued' with a plus 13% return. Dividends are currently suspended (since 3/20). It's price per earning ratio is a solid 10.2.

General Motors is doing fine.

Yeah and Amazon went nearly 20 years without turning profit or barely turning any profit, and where are they now, vs Sears/K-Mart, JC Penny, Macys, etc.  Tesla doesn't really need to turn profit, they need growth, which takes money.  Their stock price is not based on profit today, it is based on what people think Tesla profit will be 5-10 years from now.  Tesla global sales Q1 2021 are up 80% over Q1 2020, so they seem to still be growing along.  

And sure, GM is fine, they have a good business in China and USA.  Although it seems like GM is going to move away from cars like Ford did, which maybe that helps profitability, but probably means selling less cars, and less affordable cars.  Could be good for the bottom line, not so good for consumer choice.

 

[oldshurst442]

I like Tesla.  I got nothing BUT praise for Tesla cars.  The sedans.  A little less the Model 3, but I like Tesla.  

But I would NEVER buy a Tesla product.  My partner has got the Model S.  He loves it.  He wants to change it for a newer Model S.  But Im getting away from what I wanna say.  And its got to do with what Balthy just said about the Plaid+ being dead.  

And the reason of why that Musk said is but one reason of several as to why I would NEVER buy from this guy...

 

Quote

 

Tesla CEO Elon has made it official and publicly cancelled plans to produce the Model S Plaid+, a supercharged version of the upcoming Plaid version of the electric vehicle that will be delivered to the first customers this month.

Musk's reason: Plaid is so good that another variant isn't needed.

"Model S goes to Plaid speed this week," Musk tweeted on Sunday. "Plaid+ is canceled. No need, as Plaid speed is just so good."

 

 

No need as Plaid speed is just so good?

THAT is what he wants to say?  

Like go phoque yourself buddy!

Your cars WERE good. Your cars WERE faster than everybody else.  Technology catches up and OEMs have it figured out. 

Dodge didnt say we are not going to give you the Demon because the Hellcat is so good.  Before Chevy and  Ford could answer the Hellcat with their pony car offerings, Dodge went further berserk and gave us the Demon... 

The newer Porsche Taycan could barely beat the Model S.  The Plaid speed probably could bitch slap the Taycan. The problem is, you just KNOW that Porsche is NOT standing still on this.  But that is Porsche.  Porsche made the boo boo in under-estimating Tesla.  But I has a feeling when the next update of Taycan will happen, Porsche will leave Tesla in the dust...

Why?

In the automotive business,  there is no room for cockiness.  Musk will find this out soon enough.  Porsche might be cocky in areas, but they improve and improve their sportscars upon the next gen. They dont rest on their laurels...

Musk, by being this cocky, will get his clocked cleaned.  The century old plus automakers have done these battles thousands of times before.

THIS is why Dodge has Hellcatted the world and didnt waste time to Demonize it further... 

THAT is how  Detroit does it.    Ford has proven that Tesla tech can be replicated and be bettered. GM will prove that soon enough too.  

End of rant...

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

50 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Yeah and Amazon went nearly 20 years without turning profit or barely turning any profit, and where are they now, vs Sears/K-Mart, JC Penny, Macys, etc.

Not

The

Same

Thing

 

And you’d do well to understand the difference between an E-Commerce company and a car company. You could not make a worse apples to oranges comparison. 

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Daimler is Mercedes cars and vans, those are US market numbers, and since the vans are cheaper than the cars, that would only drop their average.

So now that you realized that you were wrong about the ATPs, you’re going to make excuses about Benz having to sell vans and thus skewing their numbers? LMAO! The Metris at the same price as the A-Class? That takes a big ole dump on your dropped average claim unless you want to also make the case that their cheap entry line FWD A-Class is also skewing the average. Guess it never occurred to you that you already made these two claims (at one time or another):

1.) Cadillac has three models starting in the 30s.
 

And

 

2.) Cadillac also has only one model crossing the $100K threshold while Benz has at least five starting above that. 
 

That does not help your ATP excuse at all. Just stop it already with the ridiculous excuses. 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla sales in 2020 up 50%

Ford sales in 2020 down 16.1%

GM sales in 2020 down 11.8%

Toyota sales in 2020 down 11.3%

Tesla is doing just fine.

Tesla is still in the hole financially and have been since day one.

 

They are not that fine. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

12 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

So now that you realized that you were wrong about the ATPs, you’re going to make excuses about Benz having to sell vans and thus skewing their numbers? LMAO! The Metris at the same price as the A-Class? That takes a big ole dump on your dropped average claim unless you want to also make the case that their cheap entry line FWD A-Class is also skewing the average. Guess it never occurred to you that you already made these two claims (at one time or another):

 

Daimler's ATP in April was $64,900 which is #1, and if you subtract the Metris and Sprinter that number is probably more like $70,000 for their passenger cars. You were the one that didn't want to count the Vans division sales since it gives them an extra 50,000 units and thus makes them #1 in sales.  And good thing they make vans with e-commerce and home delivery hitting all time highs, their van sales were up like 50% last year.   And good thing they make an A-class for people that want a small car and can't afford a car that is $75k, which is most people.  I'd rather have the A-class and GLA in the lineup than not, because them being there isn't taking away the S-class or G-wagen, they didn't kill off some other product and instead put the A-class in instead.  (and yeah they are killing some convertibles and stuff like the S-class coupe, but that is market trends, people don't buy cars like that anymore, they want crossover, crossover, crossover, which sucks IMO)

[balthazar]

What was Mercedes' ATP??

[G. David Felt]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla sales in 2020 up 50%

Ford sales in 2020 down 16.1%

GM sales in 2020 down 11.8%

Toyota sales in 2020 down 11.3%

Tesla is doing just fine.

WOW, You really do not understand investing nor the finicky nature of the stock market. Past performance does not guarantee future returns.

2020

2021

As one can see here Tesla took off during 2020 pandemic and went to the stars. Then in 2021 they pretty much are flaming out back into the Atlantic. Yes still better at 600 per share than the 87.48 of where they started 2020, but from the high of over 900, the drop is still very big.

[surreal1272]

48 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Daimler's ATP in April was $64,900 which is #1, and if you subtract the Metris and Sprinter that number is probably more like $70,000 for their passenger cars. You were the one that didn't want to count the Vans division sales since it gives them an extra 50,000 units and thus makes them #1 in sales.  And good thing they make vans with e-commerce and home delivery hitting all time highs, their van sales were up like 50% last year.   And good thing they make an A-class for people that want a small car and can't afford a car that is $75k, which is most people.  I'd rather have the A-class and GLA in the lineup than not, because them being there isn't taking away the S-class or G-wagen, they didn't kill off some other product and instead put the A-class in instead.  (and yeah they are killing some convertibles and stuff like the S-class coupe, but that is market trends, people don't buy cars like that anymore, they want crossover, crossover, crossover, which sucks IMO)

No no and no. Your bar moving does not apply here. Fact is that their ATP is LOWER than Cadillac and as it has been pointed out, even the Daimler figure is skewed because they include their higher priced heavy truck division. It’s really that simple so just stop the nonsense already. If you honestly feel like Mercedes is so damn great, then their ATP would not bother you to the point that you make endless excuses for it. 

48 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

You were the one that didn't want to count the Vans division sales since it gives them an extra 50,000 units and thus makes them #1 in sales

No. Here is what you said that led to my response about the vans so don’t try and twist my words when you are missing proper context here. 
 

“Sorry but since you stated already that Tesla was a "luxury" brand, you don't get to pad Mercedes numbers in with their OBVIOUS NON-LUXURY vans. Try again.”

 

And you’re the one who doesn’t want to count them in Mercedes ATP. You can not have this both ways. If you want to count them in their passenger cars sales, then you have to accept the fact that they have a lower ATP than Cadillac. Again, it’s really that simple. Besides, this entire diatribe of yours started with Tesla and their ATP, which like Mercedes, is lower than Cadillacs despite having more $100K models available for sale than Cadillac. Basically, you have nothing but excuses instead of just dealing those simple facts. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by surreal1272

[G. David Felt]

So it seems without China, Daimler would have had a very bad 2020 year across the board on all models, especially in the car business.

Daimler Global Media Site

Worse yet is Daimler shows a 33% reduction in 2020 for global sales. Yes Page 30 of their annual report. OUCH.

Now looking at Tesla, continual increase in debt, interesting that unlike other auto companies that like their spreadsheets to clarify the business for all to compare and understand, there are few charts and mostly written words in Tesla filing with the SEC as the business requires. This would make an investor naturally wonder, what is being hidden here?

Tesla, Inc. 2020 Annual Report 10-K (sec.report) Not much in this report shows Tesla growing, clearly they have debt.

[ccap41]

They probably realized they cannot come through on both claims of 1100hp and 520 miles of range...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36647484/tesla-model-s-plaid-canceled/

 

[G. David Felt]

40 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

They probably realized they cannot come through on both claims of 1100hp and 520 miles of range...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36647484/tesla-model-s-plaid-canceled/

 

I would agree that I doubt they could get the power and range in a single auto. Eventually someone will but it will not be Tesla this year.

[oldshurst442]

28 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

They probably realized they cannot come through on both claims of 1100hp and 520 miles of range...

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36647484/tesla-model-s-plaid-canceled/

 

 

I ranted a tad about this, but Im glad you brought it back to light. 

This leaves the door right open for Porsche and/or Audi to (Taycan/E Tron GT) to deliver on a 500 range, 1000 HP-ish super EV sedan that does 0-60 in under 2 seconds. 

Porsche, from what I have learned from their history, is that Porsche does NOT like taking a backseat to ANYBODY...   They fell very short with their Taycan as compared to the Model S, but you just KNOW that Porsche is NOT resting on its laurels.  They WILL end up out-performing Tesla in the next gen Taycan...

GM and its Hummer EV,   If you look at the supposed specs, and GM usually sandbags their numbers, the Hummer EV does 0-60 in 3 seconds, has 1000 HP and has a range of 350 miles.  Freedom mode engaged. The Hummer EV has also a 9000 lbs weight and is as big as a house...   Imagine what that drivetrain will do in a waaaay less big and heavy package.  Lets say a Cadillac V  EV or Chevy EV muscle car...  

To say that the regular Plaid is good enough is simply foolish.  I know he would prefer to NOT want to admit that his engineers cant deliver...

If his engineers CAN deliver this 1000 HP, 0-60 in the 1 sec range and 500 EV mile range, then Telsa SHOULD produce it.  In limited numbers if anything.   Tesla could solidify dominance.  By not producing it, Tesla opens the door WIDE open for another to take EV superiority...

When Tesla was the only game in town, Tesla's EV tech seemed impressive and downright dominant. Especially when all others were producing compliance EVs.   And rightfully so.   But other OEMs are figuring the tech out...and quite fast I might add...

[smk4565]

20 hours ago, balthazar said:

What was Mercedes' ATP??

$64,900 with Metris and Sprinter included, as they too are Mercedes.

[smk4565]

19 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

No no and no. Your bar moving does not apply here. Fact is that their ATP is LOWER than Cadillac and as it has been pointed out, even the Daimler figure is skewed because they include their higher priced heavy truck division. It’s really that simple so just stop the nonsense already. If you honestly feel like Mercedes is so damn great, then their ATP would not bother you to the point that you make endless excuses for it. 

No. Here is what you said that led to my response about the vans so don’t try and twist my words when you are missing proper context here. 
 

“Sorry but since you stated already that Tesla was a "luxury" brand, you don't get to pad Mercedes numbers in with their OBVIOUS NON-LUXURY vans. Try again.”

 

And you’re the one who doesn’t want to count them in Mercedes ATP. You can not have this both ways. If you want to count them in their passenger cars sales, then you have to accept the fact that they have a lower ATP than Cadillac. Again, it’s really that simple. Besides, this entire diatribe of yours started with Tesla and their ATP, which like Mercedes, is lower than Cadillacs despite having more $100K models available for sale than Cadillac. Basically, you have nothing but excuses instead of just dealing those simple facts. 

That is a USA figure, for passenger vehicles.  $64,900 for Mercedes.  That does not include Freightliner or Western Star.  The site simply broke down automotive ATP by corporation, Diamler, BMW, Toyota, GM, etc.  But I don't know why ATP matters for a brand, Porsche's ATP is $94,000, Land Rover's is $78,000, Jaguar's is $63,000.  So what?  It just means they have small lineups of expensive cars, with no lower priced cars.

And $64,900 might not even include the Sprinter and Metris, maybe that is just their cars, it didn't specify, but the Mercedes sales chart always lists both, so I assume ATP would include both, just like I'd assume Ford commercial was included in Ford's number.

I don't really care about ATP for a brand, but the Metris has the lowest ATP of any Mercedes and Sprinter is probably 4th lowest, including them HURTS the Mercedes ATP.  And even with commercial bands dragging them down, they are still higher than BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, Audi.  

[smk4565]

19 hours ago, David said:

So it seems without China, Daimler would have had a very bad 2020 year across the board on all models, especially in the car business.

Daimler Global Media Site

Worse yet is Daimler shows a 33% reduction in 2020 for global sales. Yes Page 30 of their annual report. OUCH.

Now looking at Tesla, continual increase in debt, interesting that unlike other auto companies that like their spreadsheets to clarify the business for all to compare and understand, there are few charts and mostly written words in Tesla filing with the SEC as the business requires. This would make an investor naturally wonder, what is being hidden here?

Tesla, Inc. 2020 Annual Report 10-K (sec.report) Not much in this report shows Tesla growing, clearly they have debt.

And Cadillac didn't outsell Tesla and Mercedes why?  If Tesla is so bad, why do they outsell Lexus, Mercedes, BMW and Audi in the USA?  Tesla outsold Dodge too, a brand with much cheaper cars.  Mercedes sold 2.087 million cars in a "very bad year", I bet a lot of luxury car companies wish their bad years were 2 million units sold.

  Daimler made $5.36 billion in profit Q1 of 2021, compared to $3 billion for GM and $3.2 billion for Ford.   $7 billion for Toyota, but they are also a bigger company than all those other guys.

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

I ranted a tad about this, but Im glad you brought it back to light. 

This leaves the door right open for Porsche and/or Audi to (Taycan/E Tron GT) to deliver on a 500 range, 1000 HP-ish super EV sedan that does 0-60 in under 2 seconds. 

Porsche, from what I have learned from their history, is that Porsche does NOT like taking a backseat to ANYBODY...   They fell very short with their Taycan as compared to the Model S, but you just KNOW that Porsche is NOT resting on its laurels.  They WILL end up out-performing Tesla in the next gen Taycan...

GM and its Hummer EV,   If you look at the supposed specs, and GM usually sandbags their numbers, the Hummer EV does 0-60 in 3 seconds, has 1000 HP and has a range of 350 miles.  Freedom mode engaged. The Hummer EV has also a 9000 lbs weight and is as big as a house...   Imagine what that drivetrain will do in a waaaay less big and heavy package.  Lets say a Cadillac V  EV or Chevy EV muscle car...  

To say that the regular Plaid is good enough is simply foolish.  I know he would prefer to NOT want to admit that his engineers cant deliver...

If his engineers CAN deliver this 1000 HP, 0-60 in the 1 sec range and 500 EV mile range, then Telsa SHOULD produce it.  In limited numbers if anything.   Tesla could solidify dominance.  By not producing it, Tesla opens the door WIDE open for another to take EV superiority...

When Tesla was the only game in town, Tesla's EV tech seemed impressive and downright dominant. Especially when all others were producing compliance EVs.   And rightfully so.   But other OEMs are figuring the tech out...and quite fast I might add...

The Model S Plaid is still crazy fast, the Model S Ludicrous mode was like 3 years ago and that is still crazy fast.  Tesla does have the Roadster coming, and that has the Space X rocket package that can make it do 0-60 in 1.1 seconds.  The Model S Plaid is also faster around Laguna Seca than a McLaren P1, which is again crazy for a sedan.

I'd love for AMG or Porsche to make a car faster than the Model S, but I actually don't see it happening.  Perhaps though they can beat them in ride, handling, steering and braking and produce better lap times on a track, but in a straight line, I am not sure anyone is beating Tesla, and for sure not with the Space X package if that does what Elon says it will.

[G. David Felt]

40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And Cadillac didn't outsell Tesla and Mercedes why?  If Tesla is so bad, why do they outsell Lexus, Mercedes, BMW and Audi in the USA?  Tesla outsold Dodge too, a brand with much cheaper cars.  Mercedes sold 2.087 million cars in a "very bad year", I bet a lot of luxury car companies wish their bad years were 2 million units sold.

  Daimler made $5.36 billion in profit Q1 of 2021, compared to $3 billion for GM and $3.2 billion for Ford.   $7 billion for Toyota, but they are also a bigger company than all those other guys.

Being a Chevrolet German Brand that Mercedes is, lets take out that asian blip and you are only looking at 1,132,867 auto's sold around the rest of the world of which only 284,824 were sold in the US. Cadillac sold in the US only 129,495. So much closer than you state. Over all GM sold 6.83 Million Auto's Compared to MB.

• General Motors - global vehicles sales in 2020 | Statista

Now for some weird reason, I cannot find actual ATP for either company, but last I heard Cadillac was much higher than MB.

Post a link to actual online info if you are going to respond saying MB has a higher ATP.

Now lets poke at your Daimler Profit figure as that is NOT Mercedes-benz profit.

Annual report & full year results 2020 | Daimler

Daimler had a NET PROFIT of only $4 Billion Euro's for 2020 which included Mercedes-benz. 

Daimler Q1 results 2021 | Daimler

Mercedes-benz DID NOT have a 5.7 Billion profit. The Net Profit for the company was 4.4 Billion for Daimler and 5.7 billion for EBIT.

Actual report breaks it down as follows:

$4.078 Billion EBIT is NOT $5.7 Billion Profit.

Seems for Q1 2021 Mercedes-benz had a true profit of $3.841 billion.

Hate to burst your bubble, but GM killed it in Q1 far out earning MB.

Adjusted EBIT for GM in Q1 2021 was $4.4 Billion dollars compared to $3.841 billion for MB.

PowerPoint Presentation (gm.com)

I believe GM and Ford are going to crush long term Tesla and Daimler needs to figure out how to build and sell auto's here in the US as well as the rest of the world.

[smk4565]

4.4 Billion Euros is $5.36 Billion, because math.   And Daimler numbers are all together, much like GM doesn't split out Cadillac brand profit, they all get lumped in.  Once Daimler Trucks becomes one company, and Mercedes-Benz becomes another, then maybe it will be very easy to see Mercedes numbers.  

Also Asia is Mercedes biggest market, you can't just say drop their #1 market and they aren't that much.  Also Mercedes outsells Cadillac 2 to 1 in Cadillac's home market.  How are Cadillac sales going in Europe on Mercedes home turf?  

A better use of ATP is within segment, so for example the GLS has a $95,807 ATP for Q1 of 2021, and the Escalade's is $99,396.  Escalade sells in 20.2 days on average, GLS 19.9 days, so those 2 are very close.  And better to argue head to head in a segment than brand to brand, when brands have a wide difference in product usually.  Plus I don't know why brand ATP matters, Maserati has a fantastic ATP, probably over $90,000 and they might not even be around in 5 years, and they might not even turn a profit.

[balthazar]

If daimler lumps profit together by corporation, how do you know they don't lump ATPs together by corporation?
I'd like to see definitive info on this point if there is any.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Also Asia is Mercedes biggest market, you can't just say drop their #1 market and they aren't that much.  Also Mercedes outsells Cadillac 2 to 1 in Cadillac's home market.  How are Cadillac sales going in Europe on Mercedes home turf?  

How many times does this have to be explained to you? Mercedes numbers vs Cadillac is misleading as Mercedes has to cover a larger gamut of vehicles from top to bottom, than Cadillac. GM has Chevrolet (The Vette anyway) and to some extent Buick to compete with certain vehicles from Mercedes. 

 

And David is just playing your game when it comes to what to count and not what to count, so maybe you ought to sit that one out lol.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

A better use of ATP is within segment

It wasn't when you thought Mercedes had the better ATP because you decided to count in ALL of Daimler with that figure.

1 hour ago, David said:

Mercedes-benz DID NOT have a 5.7 Billion profit. The Net Profit for the company was 4.4 Billion for Daimler and 5.7 billion for EBIT.

Dollars and Euros David lol. Those numbers are in Euros.

[surreal1272]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

$64,900 with Metris and Sprinter included, as they too are Mercedes.

Again, it’s just under $60K, not $64,900. You even used those same vans as an excuse why it was lower than Cadillac. Your figure was for Daimler. 

[G. David Felt]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

4.4 Billion Euros is $5.36 Billion, because math.   And Daimler numbers are all together, much like GM doesn't split out Cadillac brand profit, they all get lumped in.  Once Daimler Trucks becomes one company, and Mercedes-Benz becomes another, then maybe it will be very easy to see Mercedes numbers.  

Also Asia is Mercedes biggest market, you can't just say drop their #1 market and they aren't that much.  Also Mercedes outsells Cadillac 2 to 1 in Cadillac's home market.  How are Cadillac sales going in Europe on Mercedes home turf?  

A better use of ATP is within segment, so for example the GLS has a $95,807 ATP for Q1 of 2021, and the Escalade's is $99,396.  Escalade sells in 20.2 days on average, GLS 19.9 days, so those 2 are very close.  And better to argue head to head in a segment than brand to brand, when brands have a wide difference in product usually.  Plus I don't know why brand ATP matters, Maserati has a fantastic ATP, probably over $90,000 and they might not even be around in 5 years, and they might not even turn a profit.

I give ya 1 (ONE) valid point, I zoned on the Euros versus Dollars. Yet with that said, STOP the BULLSHIT of saying everything is in one pot when Daimler breaks out the Truck/Bus business from the auto business.

So Mercedes-Benz converted for US dollars had a Q1 of $4,678,683,690.00 Dollars.

Daimler Truck & Buses converted for US Dollars had a Q1 of $630,970,620.00 Dollars.

GM as I posted is $4.4 billion US dollars. How is GM not competing with Mercedes-Benz Especially when it is in less markets than Mercedes-Benz?

PowerPoint Presentation (gm.com)

As I STATED, POST LINKS TO THE DATA. 

Your ATP of MB means nothing as it is just a fictional figure from your mind.

QUESTION: How do you explain the 2.0% market share Mercedes-Benz has in the US compared to GM's market share?

Compared to GM market share of 17.3% for the USA.

Looking at the detailed breakout, MB does not list an ATP. So Post the Link to where you are getting your ATP figure.

Q1 retail unit sales Mercedes-Benz | Daimler

I will say that UNLIKE MB that has been vague on their BEV roadmap with only a few items announced, GM seems to be willing to post their clear roadmap of 30 new EVs by 2025. This is what TESLA will fail at competing against as they take years to get a single new product out. GM is going to get 30 out in the next 4 years.

PowerPoint Presentation (gm.com)

[G. David Felt]

Seems not all Promotions are cracked up to be what they are meant to be. After leading the global auto sales and manufacturing plant growth for the last two years and working in Executive positions since 2010 reporting to Musk, Jerome Guillen after only 3 months in the Heavy Trucking Division tasked with getting Tesla Semi into production and on the road this year has chosen to leave effective June 3rd.

Guess Tesla Semi will not make it out this year then. Wonder where this guy will pop up next at?

Paccar now has a better chance as does Daimler with getting their EV trucks on the market ahead of Tesla. Seems Tesla house of cards is starting to crumble a bit more.

Tesla veteran Jerome Guillen departs (cnbc.com)

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, David said:

 

As I STATED, POST LINKS TO THE DATA. 

Your ATP of MB means nothing as it is just a fictional figure from your mind.

QUESTION: How do you explain the 2.0% market share Mercedes-Benz has in the US compared to GM's market share?

Compared to GM market share of 17.3% for the USA.

Looking at the detailed breakout, MB does not list an ATP. So Post the Link to where you are getting your ATP figure.

Q1 retail unit sales Mercedes-Benz | Daimler

I will say that UNLIKE MB that has been vague on their BEV roadmap with only a few items announced, GM seems to be willing to post their clear roadmap of 30 new EVs by 2025. This is what TESLA will fail at competing against as they take years to get a single new product out. GM is going to get 30 out in the next 4 years.

PowerPoint Presentation (gm.com)

Per Kelly blue book, the Automotive ATP's and you can see who is in first.  And Mercedes is at 2% in the USA because they aren't a volume brand.  Although I bet Mercedes has a higher market share in Europe than GM.  

[surreal1272]

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Although I bet Mercedes has a higher market share in Europe than GM.

I would sincerely hope the hell so.

 

And again, those KBB numbers are for DAIMLER. What are you not getting here?

[smk4565]

35 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I would sincerely hope the hell so.

 

And again, those KBB numbers are for DAIMLER. What are you not getting here?

Well Daimler only has 1 car brand.  They don't have Smart car in the USA anymore.

[balthazar]

I didn't realize Daimler finally pulled the plug on smart- about a decade too late. Good riddance.

The KBB chart seems to make sense then, tho I question whether Daimler is 'reverse-sandbagging'... with the a-class in addition to the CLA, PLUS the 50% decline in s-class sales / the killing off of the s-class coupe... I'm not seeing how the ATP is up around 3-4 thousand over a couple years ago. Smells fishy.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And Mercedes is at 2% in the USA because they aren't a volume brand.

Of course it is.