The 10 largest auto company in the world

[andy82471]

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/06/08/010402.html

GM still is the biggest car company in the world. I wonder if GM's overseas brands are included in this figure

[Satty]

Top 10 Automakers Worldwide

Ranking  Automaker      2005 Global Sales

1  General Motors          8,381,805

2  Toyota Motor Corp.      8,120,000

Overseas brands are included.

[Matt276]

GM says it sold 9,170,000 cars and trucks in 2005. It's on media.gm.

So what is the real number?

[Satty]

Only possible explanation I could think of, other than one source or the other playing with the numbers, is that GM counted commercial vehicles or busses or something like that and the other place didn't. I dont have a clue why there would be a discrepancy of eight hundred thousand cars. Maybe Jim Dollinger sold that many Buick's on December 31st but weren't registered until January 3rd so they didn't go down as 2005 sales?

[Hudson]

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/06/08/010402.html

GM still is the biggest car company in the world. I wonder if  GM's overseas brands are included in this figure

GM is a global company...of course they count GM's overseas brands. Opel, Vauxhall, Holden, and Saab are 100% owned by GM and therefore counted in their global sales.

[roopull]

The problem is that while Toyota keeps selling more & more cars each year, GM is selling less. So, Toyota can afford to support its massive size & is making massive profits while doing it. GM's massive size, unlike Toyota's, is NOT an asset, but a problem. The UAW as crippled GM into not being able to properly adjust to market demands. Why else would virtually EVERY new auto plant being built be built in 'right to work' states? The other makers don't want to get stuck in GM's shoes. Brace yourselves for the inevitible... Toyota will be the biggest.

However, if they keep having media black eyes like the new Avalon's reliability issues, the Prius's mileage issues & designs as dull as the Echo... while GM - hopefully - can manage to keep creating awesome rides like the Sky, C6 Vette, & tuner friendly Cobalt, things could eventually turn around. I admit, that's a big IF, though.

[bowtie_dude]

Thats a frighteningly slim margin of victory.

[gerardo]

Maybe GMDAT is not being counted.

[Paolino]

Thats a frighteningly slim margin of victory.

That's what I was thinking.

[ellives]

Speaking of boring designs, has anybody else notice the current Lexus commercial for the new ES? That has got to be one of the most boring cars I've seen in years. It makes Buick's current offerings look aggressive.

The problem is that while Toyota keeps selling more & more cars each year, GM is selling less.  So, Toyota can afford to support its massive size & is making massive profits while doing it.  GM's massive size, unlike Toyota's, is NOT an asset, but a problem.  The UAW as crippled GM into not being able to properly adjust to market demands.  Why else would virtually EVERY new auto plant being built be built in 'right to work' states?  The other makers don't want to get stuck in GM's shoes.  Brace yourselves for the inevitible...  Toyota will be the biggest.

However, if they keep having media black eyes like the new Avalon's reliability issues, the Prius's mileage issues & designs as dull as the Echo...  while GM - hopefully - can manage to keep creating awesome rides like the Sky, C6 Vette, & tuner friendly Cobalt, things could eventually turn around.  I admit, that's a big IF, though.

[Imaj]

Maybe GMDAT is not being counted.

No I guess it wasn't counted..

[usa1]

We all know Toyota will pass up GM soon. No one is denying that. I just hope the media jackals turn on Toyota quickly. The media likes to tear down #1.

Mark

[Hudson]

Maybe GMDAT is not being counted.

Some are...some aren't. This is a total of GM sales, which means that sales of GM brands are counted. Daewoo, for example, is not a GM brand since it is owned by GM DAT and GM DAT is only about half owned by GM. Chevrolet and Buick sell GM DAT vehicles in various countries of the world and THOSE vehicles would be counted as GM sales. This could be part of the discrepancy between GM"s numbers (they may be counting Daewoo sales) and the article's numbers.

[enzl]

Some are...some aren't. This is a total of GM sales, which means that sales of GM brands are counted. Daewoo, for example, is not a GM brand since it is owned by GM DAT and GM DAT is only about half owned by GM. Chevrolet and Buick sell GM DAT vehicles in various countries of the world and THOSE vehicles would be counted as GM sales. This could be part of the discrepancy between GM"s numbers (they may be counting Daewoo sales) and the article's numbers.

GMDAT included as of 6/30/05, according to Automotive News.

Fascinating breakdown on page 24 of this week's issue....Ex. Suzuki appears to be the world's most efficient producer, with only 13.7k employees producing 2million vehicles/yr.....Fords breakdown doesn't include Mazda's 1.2 million produced...VW has more employees than any other co.....

[regfootball]

why is nissan separate from renault?

[Mr.Krinkle]

  The other makers don't want to get stuck in GM's shoes.  Brace yourselves for the inevitible...  Toyota will be the biggest.

.

whoopy woo. what exactly am i bracing myself for?

am i not going to be invited to the "yay toyota is # 1 party" now?

who gives a sh*t.

[roopull]

why is nissan separate from renault?

I believe Renault simply owns a portion of Nissan, but hasn't actually merged the two companies.... I could be wrong.

whoopy woo. what exactly am i bracing myself for?

am i not going to be invited to the "yay toyota is # 1 party" now?

who gives a sh*t.

Wow... judging by that response it would appear that you do & you clearly aren't too happy about it. Perhaps you aren't aware of just how obvious your emotions are. Thank you for your insightful and revealing response.

[ZL-1]

I'm probably going to get flamed for writing this, but I'd rather see GM at nr.2 but with the highest profitability, than see GM leading by some 200k vehicles in sales but losing $10B like they did in '05...

[ellives]

This is what the goal should be. The sins that caused the damage GM is responding to has been done over 20-30 years. The UAW has a lot to do with this and they'll get their just reward next year.

Companies need to make a profit to give themselves flexibility to maneuver and grow. Toyota and Honda are obviously aware of this and taking advantage of their positions in this area. GM has the legacy and this is tough to deal with but in the end getting profitable is the only way to take the pressure off and if it's necessary to sell less vehicles to get profitable, go for it.

I'm probably going to get flamed for writing this, but I'd rather see GM at nr.2 but with the highest profitability, than see GM leading by some 200k vehicles in sales but losing $10B like they did in '05...

[the_yellow_dart]

People would be more likely to forgive them for sliding from 'sales king' than for massive cuts or bankruptcy scares. I agree that profit is more important.

[Mr.Krinkle]

I believe Renault simply owns a portion of Nissan, but hasn't actually merged the two companies....  I could be wrong.

whoopy woo. what exactly am i bracing myself for?

am i not going to be invited to the "yay toyota is # 1 party" now?

who gives a sh*t.

Wow... judging by that response it would appear that you do & you clearly aren't too happy about it. Perhaps you aren't aware of just how obvious your emotions are. Thank you for your insightful and revealing response.

your welcome, it was no trouble really.

and i do know exactly what i said, but judging by the sarcasms dripping from your analysis, allow me to dumb it down a shade as you have not read between the lines or just like a snappy one liner to mix it up.

honda does ok without being number one. look at toyota, and theyre number 2 right now. forget the "niche" markets. if anything,dropping down a tick will give the folks at gm something to shoot for again. my point who gives a hairy rats ass who is numero uno. do they need fly girls to root them on....yayy were no 1??

essentially the turnaround thats going on cost 10 billion dollars. thats the real meat of the losses. kind of the you cant make an omlet without etc etc.

like the yellow dart said in the post directly above,

"People would be more likely to forgive them for sliding from 'sales king' than for massive cuts or bankruptcy scares. I agree that profit is more important."

i can think of plenty of products that i have that arent made by numero uno.

does that make them or me any worse off? am i somehow personally affected? are they. what they dont get the blue ribbon to put on their lapels any longer. look at the trouble sony's got themselves into, im not sure of their numbers but theyre a pretty big player.

...so again who cares who is the biggest or who is no 1?

Edited June 9, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[lanky9172]

Good morning everyone, long time reader, first time poster. I agree that a big problem with GM staying on top is the union especially when the union has members who act like the following: a fraternity brother of mine's dad retired from GM and is complaining about them cutting pensions and health benefits. This guy is obese though, probably 60-80 lbs. overweight and is on oxygen. I don't know if he is on oxy because of the work he was doing in the factory or what, but regardless, he could breathe a lot easier if he lost the set of tires around his middle.

So he has health problems and is pissed his health care is being cut. Understandable except for the fact that within the past two years he has bought a new Trailblazer EXT, a brand new Hitachi Plasma (the model with the rotating remote controlled stand which is EXPENSIVE!), a new Onkyo sound system, an XBOX 360 (a retiree? Yup, NOT his kid), a new high end HP computer, etc...real responsible spending there and all he can do is bash GM for cutting the benefits of retirees. How sick is this? If GM is going to stay on top, it needs to change more than just its business, but people's modes of thinking and lifestyle too...

Edited June 9, 2006 by lanky9172

[ponchoman49]

Overseas brands are included.

Yikes that is way to close for comfort!

[Mr.Krinkle]

toyota could probably buy up that difference out of their own pocket if they were so inclined.

it would be a drop in the bucket, assuming of course those numbers are accurate.

id still rather see gm go to number 2 become profitable and then climb back on top. this all reminds me of Ford Vs Chevy wars.

instead of ford though, its toyota. a little more competetion, this time on a global scale.

[Simon C]

Good morning everyone, long time reader, first time poster.  I agree that a big problem with GM staying on top is the union especially when the union has members who act like the following:  a fraternity brother of mine's dad retired from GM and is complaining about them cutting pensions and health benefits.  This guy is obese though, probably 60-80 lbs. overweight and is on oxygen.  I don't know if he is on oxy because of the work he was doing in the factory or what, but regardless, he could breathe a lot easier if he lost the set of tires around his middle. 

So he has health problems and is pissed his health care is being cut.  Understandable except for the fact that within the past two years he has bought a new Trailblazer EXT, a brand new Hitachi Plasma (the model with the rotating remote controlled stand which is EXPENSIVE!), a new Onkyo sound system, an XBOX 360 (a retiree?  Yup, NOT his kid), a new high end HP computer, etc...real responsible spending there and all he can do is bash GM for cutting the benefits of retirees.  How sick is this?  If GM is going to stay on top, it needs to change more than just its business, but people's modes of thinking and lifestyle too...

Ahhh yeah, we know all UAW members are "overweight", and we all play with our XBOX as soon as we get home from work. And then we drink beer!!

GM's problems have nothing to do with design, cookie-cutter cars (1980-1998), and good competition.

The UAW has been a part of GM for what something like 60 years. Back in the 60's I don't recall anyone saying "GM is doing great. It's all because of the UAW". But today, GM is struggling and everyone says "GM is in trouble. It's all because of the UAW"

[roopull]

Ahhh yeah, we know all UAW members are "overweight", and we all play with our XBOX as soon as we get home from work.   And then we drink beer!!

GM's problems have nothing to do with design, cookie-cutter cars (1980-1998), and good competition.

The UAW has been a part of GM for what something like 60 years. Back in the 60's I don't recall anyone saying "GM is doing great. It's all because of the UAW". But today, GM is struggling and everyone says "GM is in trouble. It's all because of the UAW"

The union doesn't exist now - nor has it ever - for the creation of a more competitive product. The union, just like any other money making institution in a capitalist society, exists to maximize profit. For a union, that means getting as many people to be dues paying members as possible. How do you do that? You do it by promising higher wages & better benefits. It has absolutley nothing to do with making good cars.

No one, I would hope, would say that the Union is GM's ONLY problem, & you're right to point out the fact that an inferior product led to a good portion of the current situation. However, in the 60s, GM only had a handful of competitors & only Ford was a serious one. Today, by means of imported competition, GM must share the automarket with literally doezens of brands. Even if they had always made great cars, their %age of market share would have dropped.

The union, it all its wisdom, prevented & will always prevent GM from beign able to cut-back on production. GM is paying union members even when their plants aren't running. They're paying for health care & pension promises made back when the company had a market share double what it is, today.

Unions, no matter what any union member would have us believe, cripple the company they leach onto. In their greed, they have been known to destroy a failing company that might otherwise have survived (see Eastern Airlines for a good example.)

GM, thanks to its union, cannot easily re-configure itself. Even if it goes into bankruptsy & cans the current union contract, a strike (which would be made twice as ugly by those Teamsters thugs joining in the madness,) would no doubt do much to sinking GM into receivership.

Meanwhile, Honda, Toyota, Kia, BMW, Mercedes, and Nissan have all opened up plants down here in Dixie where laws do not give unions the massive power they have up North. Atlanta's GM AND Ford plants are closing... Kia is opening one right down the interstate... anyone wonder why unions don't have the political pull they used to? Perhaps its because former UAW members realize just why they lost thier jobs at GM & Ford & realize who hired them & why.

It might not be 'all because of the UAW,' but God knows the UAW hasn't made things the least bit easier for GM!

[Hudson]

why is nissan separate from renault?

I believe Renault simply owns a portion of Nissan, but hasn't actually merged the two companies....  I could be wrong.

Nope, you're right. Renault owns about 44% of Nissan and Nissan, in turn, owns a chunk of Renault. But the two companies have not merged. Just like Ford and Mazda, and GM and the small portions of other companies that they own.

[Simon C]

The union doesn't exist now - nor has it ever - for the creation of a more competitive product. The union, just like any other money making institution in a capitalist society, exists to maximize profit. For a union, that means getting as many people to be dues paying members as possible. How do you do that? You do it by promising higher wages & better benefits. It has absolutley nothing to do with making good cars.

I disagree with this statement. In the 80's, the Big 3 and the UAW worked together to make production better. They took more of what the UAW had to say, "suggestion-wise" on how to make things better in the plants. The guys up in the offices have all kinds of idea's, but the UAW member is the one who puts the things together. So, they formed "committees", hourly and salary, to work together and make a process better. This is just one reason why GM is making as many cars as they do, with the amount of people they have. AND quality is the best it has ever been.

I agree with some of what you say, but, the union is supposed to take care of their membership. The UAW is working with GM with reducing manpower, while not pushing everyone out and saying "that's it, go" during this transition.

I personally want to thank the UAW and GM for making the transition easier than it could have been.

[lanky9172]

please let's not turn this into a union vs. non-union arguement. I was simply stating that just from one, anecdotal experience, I was sad to see someone who had been an employee of GM (which had taken care of them for a long time) blame all their trouble on an already troubled company when it had a lot to do with shooting themselves in the foot, not the other way around. My point was that it is going to take more than a redesign in product and a turn around in business practices to keep the General as General of the automotive world. The issue of staying on top is greater and more complex than just simply selling cars.

Edited June 9, 2006 by lanky9172

[Simon C]

Agreed.

I'm sorry if I came out with a chip on my shoulder. It's been a rough time since last Oct.

Edited June 9, 2006 by Simon C

[roopull]

Agreed.

Lanky, I'm sorry if I came out with a chip on my shoulder. It's been a rough time since last Oct.

Agreed... same sentiments here. I don't have anything against union members in general, I just see the reality of why the union exists... if the union is wise enough to realize that playing hardball will hurt union members in the long-run, kudos to the union.

If the UAW were to act like Eastern Airlines' unions back in the late 80s... ug!

[capriceman]

GM doesn't Care to be the biggest as of right now. its a luxary for them. They want profitability and good selling numbers. I have only seen a a couple of GM comericals that say there number 1. While every Camry commercial says look everyone else has one. The new Toyotas arent all that they are cracked up to be. No leading designs, interior, or technology(EDIT: I mean that there quality was going up but has leveled over recent years) . Just kind of "O God we need a design that we can get out there fast. While GM is slowly with every year improving there cars alot.

Toyota is trying hard to be #1 while GM is like "Cool we are number 1 again" like they are happy that they are, just that it doesnt mean anything important to them. What would you rather have 1st place and be in debt millions of dollars or 3rd and have millions in profit.

Toyota has been rushing things like the Camry. if proper test were done the trans thing should of been found in advance. Some dont no it but back a couple of months before the release of the Fusion they had a sunroof problem and it was fixed promptly and tested. and still released on time.

Edited June 9, 2006 by capriceman

[roopull]

Toyota is trying hard to be #1 while GM is like "Cool we are number 1 again" like they are happy that they are, just that it doesnt mean anything important to them.

How do you figure Toyota is concerned with being number one? Every interview I've read regarding the issue makes it sound like they either don't care if they're number one, or like they are a little nervous about sitting in that spotlight - with all the extra media attention it garners.

Here'sa portion of an interview with Toyo's top man in the US

Toyota has made a habit out of hitting volume numbers ahead of schedule. What is the current target for Toyota, Lexus and Scion for 2010? Are there target years for 2.5 million or 3 million units?

Our focus is not necessarily just volume, and so the result is not as predictable as if we were just seeking a single number. We have a planning guide that we use to forecast capacity required for production. The dealers need that for their sales and service planning. We have been focusing on 2.5 million, with the timeframe probably around 2008 or something in general terms. But that is not a goal, so we could actually achieve that before that date. The function of that number is to have capacity available. If demand arrives sooner, and we have production capacity then we can achieve a higher sales number.

In April, Toyota outsold DaimlerChrysler in U.S. sales for the first time. Was this cause for celebration, or just another work day?

We didn't even track that. First of all, we focus on what we didn't do right because we missed some numbers. We didn't do as well as we could have done or should have done. Secondly, we are benefiting from a number of new products. That's an unusual occurrence that has given us a tailwind and which was accelerated by concern over fuel prices. The result was that our sales were a little higher and theirs were a little lower. But it necessarily doesn't reflect what we did. If the market for them was constrained by fuel prices, then we really didn't achieve anything. When it comes to competition, we don't look outside the window.

Of course, there's plenty of PR BS in that, but I think Toyota and GM certainly both want to be number one - not just in volume, but profit per vehicle (a big part of GM's restructuring goal.)

Their hiccups with the Camry & Avalon, I think, are the result of their SIZE as much as a result of anything else. Think of all the models GM & Toyota Corp make... there are going to be hiccups with both. I hope that once Toyota takes the number one slot, they get all of the unforgiiving media attention GM currently gets... I think that's the true downside of being #1. Everyone wants to knock you off your pedestal. The underdog, however.... everyone just LOVES an underdog.

[CaddyXLR-V]

I disagree with this statement. In the 80's, the Big 3 and the UAW worked together to make production better. They took more of what the UAW had to say, "suggestion-wise" on how to make things better in the plants. The guys up in the offices have all kinds of idea's, but the UAW member is the one who puts the things together. So, they formed "committees", hourly and salary, to work together and make a process better. This is just one reason why GM is making as many cars as they do, with the amount of people they have. AND quality is the best it has ever been.

I agree with some of what you say, but, the union is supposed to take care of their membership. The UAW is working with GM with reducing manpower, while not pushing everyone out and saying "that's it, go" during this transition.

I personally want to thank the UAW and GM for making the transition easier than it could have been.

That is just something any good business should do, union or not. I bet it is something Toyota and the rest of the transplants do as well.

I hate how it's referred to as GM is working with the UAW to do something. Those workers are GM workers!!! They don't work for the UAW. GM should work with their workers to advance their processes. That is the mentality that needs to go away. They work for GM, and they should act as such.

Edited June 9, 2006 by CaddyXLR-V

[Flybrian]

BTW, Eastern's downfall was not the sole fault of 'the unions.' Also blame general mismanagement, increased competition from budget airlines, overspending, the recession of the 1980s, and regulatory changes.

[roopull]

That is just something any good business should do, union or not. I bet it is something Toyota and the rest of the transplants do as well.

I hate how it's referred to as GM is working with the UAW to do something. Those workers are GM workers!!! They don't work for the UAW. GM should work with their workers to advance their processes. That is the mentality that needs to go away. They work for GM, and they should act as such.

I recently started a job where the Teamsters are a huge force (something like 70% of non-management is unionized (that's probably less than most GM plants, but whatever...) I've worked a few jobs in my life & I've never worked somewhere where the relationship between management & labor is so horrible. I mean... it's bad, real bad. The attitude on both sides is full of resentment & anger.

The workers have a 'you can't make me do that' attitude & management clearly doesn't give a crap about any employee's individual situation. It's all "according to the contract." There is no teamowrk.

I'm not sure if that attitude exists at UAW entrenchments, but judging how UAW members sometimes brag about 'working with management' as though they're really going beyond the call of duty, I think it must.

It would be interesting to see some GM management & some UAW workers get transplanted into a non-unionized & well run company for a year... specifically a small family run type of joint where everyone knows everyone & everyone is on the same team... might open some eyes. God knows my working at a unionized job certainly has opened mine.

[norway12]

The Union and deals about health care benefits and pensions are needed in a country where pensions and hospital care are not covered by the state. GM and other companies can't just stop paying pensions, then people would have nothing to fall back on.. GM and other corporations serve as small states in themselves, taking care of their emloyees for life. If you don't want this system, then vote for tax increases and VATs.

Edited June 10, 2006 by norway12

[lanky9172]

Now Norway, I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. I think that it is in our best interest and nature as human beings to look out for one another, but the moment you say someone owes you is where I start getting nervous. My dad died when I was very young and he didn't plan ahead at all. To make a story short, I have had to work for everything I have today. It was hard, but there was not and is no moment where I say someone owes me something, like the state should take care of me, whether it be doctor bills or whatever, because my dad died. Personally, I think losing a father is more of a justification for communal socialism than simply "I work here". That, I personally feel, is part of the bigger problem I spoke about early. GM faces more than just design problems and corporate restructuring, it faces the "you owe me because I grace your factory with my presence...or simply because I exist" mentality. We need to impress into our cultural a sense of personal responsibility. No one should go to McDonald's and order three Big Macs and then complain about how they have to have a quad-bipass. Just my opinion, I am not trying to anger anyone.

[capriceman]

lanky, I respect all opinions but, i wouldn't mind if a my company said "well you worked here for 30 dedicated years and for that when you retire we will give you some health care benifits on top of your 401-K". I would accept it. wouldn't you? you recieve it since you work there and was a dedicated employee for a givin amount of time. by no means are you demanding it be done or hey you owe me, its just there policy.

Im a union guy, but i dislike guys that abuse the unions. I love haveing a chance for if we feel that we are unsafe, or fell that doing somthing that is not needed we can say "hey, what are you thinking" with are voices heard. Some people

[greg_nate]

Good morning everyone, long time reader, first time poster.  I agree that a big problem with GM staying on top is the union especially when the union has members who act like the following:  a fraternity brother of mine's dad retired from GM and is complaining about them cutting pensions and health benefits.  This guy is obese though, probably 60-80 lbs. overweight and is on oxygen.  I don't know if he is on oxy because of the work he was doing in the factory or what, but regardless, he could breathe a lot easier if he lost the set of tires around his middle. 

So he has health problems and is pissed his health care is being cut.  Understandable except for the fact that within the past two years he has bought a new Trailblazer EXT, a brand new Hitachi Plasma (the model with the rotating remote controlled stand which is EXPENSIVE!), a new Onkyo sound system, an XBOX 360 (a retiree?  Yup, NOT his kid), a new high end HP computer, etc...real responsible spending there and all he can do is bash GM for cutting the benefits of retirees.  How sick is this?  If GM is going to stay on top, it needs to change more than just its business, but people's modes of thinking and lifestyle too...

GM isn't going to be able to change your friend's dad. Its not a GM problem. Its an American problem. The person you just described is a fairly good representation of the average American.

[ellives]

The problem with generalities is they are certain to be wrong a large percentage of the time and I'm quite sure your statement below falls into this category.

GM isn't going to be able to change your friend's dad.  Its not a GM problem.  Its an American problem.  The person you just described is a fairly good representation of the average American.

[ellives]

Huh? Something is a bit whacked with this post. Care to edit it?

lanky, I respect all opinions but, i wouldn't mind if a my company said "well you worked here for 30 dedicated years and for that when you retire we will give you some health care benifits on top of your 401-K". I would accept it. wouldn't you? you recieve it since you work there and was a dedicated employee for a givin amount of time. by no means are you demanding it be done or hey you owe me, its just there policy.

Im a union guy, but i dislike guys that abuse the unions. I love haveing a chance for if we feel that we are unsafe, or fell that doing somthing that is not needed we can say "hey, what are you thinking" with are voices heard. Some people

[ellives]

We don't want tax increases *nor* VAT's. Nothing good ever comes out of paying taxes. Nothing.

The problem we have in the US is a fundamental shift of what has been a paternal approach to retirement in the past. The country is moving from a defined benefit approach ("you pay in this much and we promise to pay you this much when you retire") to a defined contribution approach ("we'll both pay this amount and you'll manage whatever you're able to amass during your working career and it will pay out in whatever way you want it to until it's gone.")

Most of the old defined benefit program, whether it's pensions or Social Security, are dying in there current forms. They need to be changed radically. No one can predict the future which is why they're a bad idea and why they'll all failing.

GM is trying to compete having the burden of it's old programs against competitors structured with the new. Something is going to give eventually.

Unions are going the way of the dinosaur in commercial enterprises. They are just bad for business and I'll gladly debate this statement with anyone who chooses. Unions will continue in municipal enterprises because it's the only way these employees will ever get a decent wage and it's the recent why the expression "government employee" will always have a negative connotation and why the US will continue to decline. Personally I'd be embarrassed to tell anyone I was a government employee.

The Union and deals about health care benefits and pensions are needed in a country where pensions and hospital care are not covered by the state. GM and other companies can't just stop paying pensions, then people would have nothing to fall back on.. GM and other corporations serve as small states in themselves, taking care of their emloyees for life. If you don't want this system, then vote for tax increases and VATs.

[lanky9172]

GM isn't going to be able to change your friend's dad.  Its not a GM problem.  Its an American problem.  The person you just described is a fairly good representation of the average American.

Oh I know, but it's still a problem that GM has to face...our social issues are something that GM has to stear around...but how do we do that? How can we be the number one company in the world if our society that we employ acts and thinks like this? Although I am starting to agree with many of you on here that it is better to be second fiddle and making profit than number one with a knife in your back, the social mentality is still a problem that I see...

And I also agree with the fact that if someone worked at GM for 30+ years they should get some help with 401K and things like that...but I still hate victimization and I am very inndependent so the whole "you owe me" mentality still bothers me a bit, I am sure you guys understand.

[ellives]

Oh I know, but it's still a problem that GM has to face...our social issues are something that GM has to stear around...but how do we do that?  How can we be the number one company in the world if our society that we employ acts and thinks like this?  Although I am starting to agree with many of you on here that it is better to be second fiddle and making profit than number one with a knife in your back, the social mentality is still a problem that I see...

The reference "number 1" can be measured in a lot of ways. We're focused here on number of units sold which of course GM appears to retain for the time being. The true measure is, again, profits. With profits you can become number 1 in unit says or any other measure you want to be. When you're losing money, no other measure really matters.

And I also agree with the fact that if someone worked at GM for 30+ years they should get some help with 401K and things like that...but I still hate victimization and I am very inndependent so the whole "you owe me" mentality still bothers me a bit, I am sure you guys understand.

You're right to dislike the "you owe me" mentality. It's pervasive throughout US society. Unfortunately when you look at Social Security, for instance, it has become a "catch all" for much more than it was originally intended. This will need to change and people will need to take more responsibility for their own retirement via things like 401K's and IRA's. The days of the feed bag paid to that fat GM retiree you referred to are coming to an end. If he lives long enough he's going to lose the whole damn pension if the current trend continues.

[Simon C]

That is just something any good business should do, union or not. I bet it is something Toyota and the rest of the transplants do as well.

I hate how it's referred to as GM is working with the UAW to do something. Those workers are GM workers!!! They don't work for the UAW. GM should work with their workers to advance their processes. That is the mentality that needs to go away. They work for GM, and they should act as such.

Unfortunately, GM didn't want to work with the UAW (back in the day). It was the "do as I say" mentality. Something may work on paper up in the offices, but when you try and do it on the floor, there were things that they didn't know what happens if you try this with that.

Anyway, the UAW and GM somehow got together ( in the 80's) and decided it was better to work together. I know that's how it should have always been, but for whatever the reasons, it wasn't.

Today, the relationship is so much better. It's a difference of night and day.

[roopull]

The Union and deals about health care benefits and pensions are needed in a country where pensions and hospital care are not covered by the state. GM and other companies can't just stop paying pensions, then people would have nothing to fall back on.. GM and other corporations serve as small states in themselves, taking care of their emloyees for life. If you don't want this system, then vote for tax increases and VATs.

Oh, now, forgive me for being rude, but that's just BS. What's needed in a country that isn't socialized like France is adults acting like adults. You don't have to depend on a big company any more than you have to depend on the government. The only thing you have to depend on & the only thing an adult should ever depend on is YOURSELF. There are thousands of methods of investments & savings that are much more reliable than a company pension (especially a pension from a company that hasn't made a good profit in years!)

Now, if you have a contract with GM & that contract says that GM is going to pay you via a paycheck AND insurance AND a pension, by all means, you're entitled to it. However, don't try to convince me that you NEED government or NEED GM in order to survive.

Puh-leeeeze!

I've never worked for a big company that is supposed to 'take care of its employees for life' nor will I be one to accept government handouts. I'm a man... a man willing and able to take care of my own self & my own family. Hell will freeze over before I become a leach.

...and if you think VATS & socialism are so friggin' great, check out the constant strikes & riots in France - to say nothing of the unemployment rates over there!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Message to the media: WORK HARDER....

What you need to brace yourself for is the constant RUBBING IT IN OUR FACES that Toyota is number 1 that'll happen at the end of this year.

It's all downhill from here folks... The media will get their way and one by one the majority will continue to not only abandon GM & Ford but begin to loathe them just like most of our resident "In the know" guys and insiders who are already working overtime to elevate Honda and Hyundai now that they've successfully destroyed GM & Ford and elevated Toyota to #1. Detroit is like a punctured balloon now.

NOW FOR YOU OPTIMISTS:

When I was working full time at the investment firm that still employees me, we dropped from #1 in two key surveys the last year I was there. While the company WAS concerned about it, the overriding sentiment within was one of wisdom. "Once you're on top, there's no where to go but down. And it is inevitable. What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger and harder working."

[ellives]

The damage was done long ago. It's better (much better) to be a profitable #2 than and unprofitable #1.

Message to the media: WORK HARDER....

What you need to brace yourself for is the constant RUBBING IT IN OUR FACES that Toyota is number 1 that'll happen at the end of this year.

It's all downhill from here folks... The media will get their way and one by one the majority will continue to not only abandon GM & Ford but begin to loathe them just like most of our resident "In the know" guys and insiders who are already working overtime to elevate Honda and Hyundai now that they've successfully destroyed GM & Ford and elevated Toyota to #1. Detroit is like a punctured balloon now.

NOW FOR YOU OPTIMISTS:

When I was working full time at the investment firm that still employees me, we dropped from #1 in two key surveys the last year I was there. While the company WAS concerned about it, the overriding sentiment within was one of wisdom. "Once you're on top, there's no where to go but down. And it is inevitable. What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger and harder working."