"We Build Confusion"

[wildcat]

Jerry Flint has written his observations on Pontiac's place in GM. To see his article, "We Build Confusion," click here.

[Chicagoland]

He does accurately point out that Bunke Knudsen started the 'performance image' in the mid 50's, not DeLorean.

Also, while the Trans Am was doing well in the 1970's, the LeMans was trying to be an Olds Cutlass. The 78-81 LeMans has to much chrome and vinyl, and blurred the image, to where it was renamed Bonneville in 82. etc,etc..

Was not until 1987, when the chrome boats were dropped.

[sciguy_0504]

It's not just all about volume, rather quality. A great RWD may not sell in the numbers that an average FWD car would, let alone a great FWD car, but a great RWD car would surely make more money (less incentives) and lead to positive brand recognition. Pontiac can have a crossover but make sure it is sporty. If Pontiac HAS to have a FWD car for volume, make it AWD.

Buick should have a mix of FWD and RWD cars. Caddy handles the luxury RWD market.

[Sixty8panther]

I of the opinion that a new Pontiac lineup with 80% RWD

and 20% rear-biased AWD would be EXACTLY what's in

order to revive the brand.

[pow]

I of the opinion that a new Pontiac lineup with 80% RWD

and 20% rear-biased AWD would be EXACTLY what's in

order to revive the brand.

Yeah... just look at how successful the GTO is.

[sciguy_0504]

To use the GTO as an example for future Pontiac RWD sales is unfair because it was done on the quick and cheap, not to mention it applied to only one market. Bold design, great performance, solid materials, average prices and a good dealer experience are needed.

I doubt Pontiac will ever again see 600,000+ sales due to brand loyalties and a very competitive and crowded marketplace, no matter what wheels are in charge.

[regfootball]

BMW sells 25% of its 3 series and 33% of its 5 series in AWD and those %ages keep growing. To top it off, most volume sellers in the market as a whole are FWD based. So Pontiac needs to have a mix of all. An 80% RWD solution would be a death knell indeed.

Hell, even look at Lexus, its ballyhooed as a RWD brand but its bigger sellers, the RX is AWD or FWD i think and the ES is FWD. The lesser volume IS and GS now offer AWD and I think even the LS will now too.

Audi built its image on AWD, not RWD.

Mercedes has proliferated and expanded due to many AWD offerings on its main cars.

Acura has a sporty image despite mostly FWD offerings.

I cannot think of one brand directly comparable with where Pontiac wants to be that solely or almost completely is fixed on RWD, so that appraoch is not proven to be a fix all answer.

It has to be a mix of all.

[Flybrian]

I of the opinion that a new Pontiac lineup with 80% RWD

and 20% rear-biased AWD would be EXACTLY what's in

order to revive the brand.

After nearly a decade of truly lackluster performance, the 1987 FWD Bonneville revived that nameplate's performance image - and won numerous awards doing so.

Its not as cut-and-dried as RWD vs. FWD; its about doing it correctly.

[regfootball]

After nearly a decade of truly lackluster performance, the 1987 FWD Bonneville revived that nameplate's performance image - and won numerous awards doing so.

Its not as cut-and-dried as RWD vs. FWD; its about doing it correctly.

^^^^^^^^

[balthazar]

>>"To see his article..."<<

Now why would I ever want to do that? I actually had a decent day today.

Ahhh, what the hell....

>>"Pontiac was in the dumps in the middle '50s, when Bunkie Knudsen--the son of a GM president and an impressive leader in his own right--took over. Knudsen was a GM vice president, which meant he actually had the power to change the cars. That was the beginning of Pontiac's great years."<<

That's not it: Knudsen was Pontiac's General Manager, back when all GMs had authority, discretionary budgets and individual Engineering departments.

>>"...how GM became the world's leader--by spreading a few platforms among its divisions and doing a great job of differentiating the look, power and handling of various models derived off these platforms."<<

Again- that's not it. It was not "a few" platforms (nevermind that the term 'platform' is an anachronism with regards to the '50 & '60s), it was actually a great number of autonomous divisional chassis's. Which is also how the power was 'differentiated": autonomous engines. A Pontiac was Pontiac-designed, Pontiac-engineered, Pontiac-powered.

It's what's needed again.

[Mr.Krinkle]

>>"To see his article..."<<

Now why would I ever want to do that? I actually had a decent day today.

Ahhh, what the hell....

>>"Pontiac was in the dumps in the middle '50s, when Bunkie Knudsen--the son of a GM president and an impressive leader in his own right--took over. Knudsen was a GM vice president, which meant he actually had the power to change the cars. That was the beginning of Pontiac's great years."<<

That's not it: Knudsen was Pontiac's General Manager, back when all GMs had authority, discretionary budgets and individual Engineering departments.

>>"...how GM became the world's leader--by spreading a few platforms among its divisions and doing a great job of differentiating the look, power and handling of various models derived off these platforms."<<

Again- that's not it. It was not "a few" platforms (nevermind that the term 'platform' is an anachronism with regards to the '50 & '60s), it was actually a great number of autonomous divisional chassis's. Which is also how the power was 'differentiated": autonomous engines. A Pontiac was Pontiac-designed, Pontiac-engineered, Pontiac-powered.

It's what's needed again.

pontiac is pontiac. thats what always made them special. thats what makes all these cars what they are, i just want to know if they can stand on their own. if pontaic had no affiliation with GM what what that mean for them? all the brands are separate, thats how i like to think of them. even when parts are shared its like, ok, at least the people at pontiac..or buick know what were after. at some point theyll figure it out because after olds its kind of known what happens to that core fan base once you let it go.

does anyone think gms sinking marketshare can be compared with the loss of that division? would numbers like that even exist? perhaps not all of it but a part.

amyway, there has to be a better way with better people and more ideas to create, embelish, or even exaggerate what would and could be done with the proper foundation. pontiac may only sell what 2/300k but thats still more than not selling any at all and its foolhardy to think another gm division, and at this time i use it lightly, will pick up that slack.

its not that damaged but once its gone...its gone, and there aint no bringin it back.

[Dsuupr]

Can we not go one day without someone slamming GM for their decisions?

I for one think going rear wheel drive is a GREAT idea for Pontiac. Selling in bulk has not proven to help GM in the long run. Selling things that are "hot" and make a crap load of cash is the answer. Going rear wheel drive will make Pontiac stand out, and adds to the potential of Pontiac making "hot" cars.

[C.H.U.D.]

Yeah... just look at how bland the GTO is.

Fixed it for ya

It actually ties into what Fly said. You need the overall package to win consumers. RWD and slick powertrains will help back the modern performance image.

Edited June 8, 2006 by C.H.U.D.

[The O.C.]

>>"To see his article..."<<

Now why would I ever want to do that? I actually had a decent day today.

Ahhh, what the hell....

>>"Pontiac was in the dumps in the middle '50s, when Bunkie Knudsen--the son of a GM president and an impressive leader in his own right--took over. Knudsen was a GM vice president, which meant he actually had the power to change the cars. That was the beginning of Pontiac's great years."<<

That's not it: Knudsen was Pontiac's General Manager, back when all GMs had authority, discretionary budgets and individual Engineering departments.

>>"...how GM became the world's leader--by spreading a few platforms among its divisions and doing a great job of differentiating the look, power and handling of various models derived off these platforms."<<

Again- that's not it. It was not "a few" platforms (nevermind that the term 'platform' is an anachronism with regards to the '50 & '60s), it was actually a great number of autonomous divisional chassis's. Which is also how the power was 'differentiated": autonomous engines. A Pontiac was Pontiac-designed, Pontiac-engineered, Pontiac-powered.

It's what's needed again.

GM's Divisional General Managers back then DID have the titles of "Vice-President" just like Ed Mertz did back when I worked for Buick.

[evok]

GM's Divisional General Managers back then DID have the titles of "Vice-President" just like Ed Mertz did back when I worked for Buick.

I would not argue with him, he knows his stuff.

[roopull]

The problem with Pontiac, IMO, and the reason folks are so confused is that there's little that is special about Pontiac. Aside from the failing GTO, what can you buy at Pontiac that you can't essentially buy somewhere else in the GM lineup?

If GM is going to continue to do this platform sharing business, it's a recipe for disaster -FWD, AWD, RWD... it won't matter.

Take the upcoming US Ponty Pursuit... What's going to be so special about it that will make it better than a Cobalt SS?

What makes the Solstice better than a Sky? In fact, almost every article I read about the Sky puts the Sky as a better car - even faster through the slaloms! WTF?

What makes a G6 better than a Malibu or a Saab 9-3?

Why buy a Torrent over an Equinox, Vue or the upcoming GMC clone?

THAT is what's wrong with Pontiac.

THAT is what's wrong with GM... cannibalist competition, lack of brand identity... bla bla bla... so, yeah, go ahead & make all the Ponties RWD... meanwhile, by default Chevy, Buick, GM, Saturn will all have a version of that RWD car & the cycle will start all over again.

Pontiac, I'm sorry to say, has no reason to exist in GM's line-up.

[CaddyXLR-V]

The problem with Pontiac, IMO, and the reason folks are so confused is that there's little that is special about Pontiac.  Aside from the failing GTO, what can you buy at Pontiac that you can't essentially buy somewhere else in the GM lineup?

If GM is going to continue to do this platform sharing business, it's a recipe for disaster -FWD, AWD, RWD... it won't matter.

Take the upcoming US Ponty Pursuit...  What's going to be so special about it that will make it better than a Cobalt SS?

What makes the Solstice better than a Sky?  In fact, almost every article I read about the Sky puts the Sky as a better car - even faster through the slaloms!  WTF?

What makes a G6 better than a Malibu or a Saab 9-3?

Why buy a Torrent over an Equinox, Vue or the upcoming GMC clone?

THAT is what's wrong with Pontiac. 

THAT is what's wrong with GM...  cannibalist competition, lack of brand identity...  bla bla bla...  so, yeah, go ahead & make all the Ponties RWD...  meanwhile, by default Chevy, Buick, GM, Saturn will all have a version of that RWD car & the cycle will start all over again.

Pontiac, I'm sorry to say, has no reason to exist in GM's line-up.

You missed the point. The point was to give Pontiac a clear identity. Will it share platforms, yes. But what company doesn't share platforms now? Basically every car GM makes shares a platform with another brand. Why is that what is wrong with Pontiac? Are all the other brands still great when they do the same? Cadillac is the only brand that doesn't share platforms, and even then the Deville and trucks share platforms as well.

[balthazar]

GM's Divisional General Managers back then DID have the titles of "Vice-President" just like Ed Mertz did back when I worked for Buick.

Mertz ('86-97) did not have the discretionary authority & divisional budget that earlier decades' GMs had. The point was that, not their job title.

Division GMs have had 'VP' titles since '33.

How'd I do, evok?

Edited June 8, 2006 by balthazar

[roopull]

You missed the point. The point was to give Pontiac a clear identity. Will it share platforms, yes. But what company doesn't share platforms now? Basically every car GM makes shares a platform with another brand. Why is that what is wrong with Pontiac? Are all the other brands still great when they do the same? Cadillac is the only brand that doesn't share platforms, and even then the Deville and trucks share platforms as well.

No, I didn't miss the point. Other brands platform share, but most of those vehicles that are sharing platforms do not directly compete with each other. Camrys & ES300s do not compete directly with each other, for example. When any brand re-produces a model at the same or similar price point, it's idiotic in my book. I don't care what brand is doing it.

Thankifully, GM is getting better at platform sharing, but they have so many brands they need to produce new products for, they simply do not have the budget to create unique models for each brand.

This is why Lutz's plan to have Saturn share models with Opel is brilliant. IMO, it ensures the future of Saturn more than any move since the division was created.

Pontiac, however, just seems lost. Pontiac might make sense to me if there were no Red Line Saturns, no SS Chevys etc. Will the Pursuit outrun a Cobalt SS? The Solstice, if test drives are to be believed, cannot outrun a Sky... That, to me, sounds like Pontiac is completely lost.

If you ask me, Pontiac should, if left alive, be treated like an in-house tuner firm... Send them your 260hp Sky & they'll turn it into a 300hp STI killer. As it is now, it's just an also-ran & will remain one under this "new" plan... they should call it the deja-vu plan, imo.

[ToniCipriani]

The problem with Pontiac, IMO, and the reason folks are so confused is that there's little that is special about Pontiac.  Aside from the failing GTO, what can you buy at Pontiac that you can't essentially buy somewhere else in the GM lineup?

Unfortunately, the Vibe. Only Pontiac got the Matrix clone.

If GM is going to continue to do this platform sharing business, it's a recipe for disaster -FWD, AWD, RWD... it won't matter.

Take the upcoming US Ponty Pursuit...  What's going to be so special about it that will make it better than a Cobalt SS?

We know that it was coming. They are the same car. The G5 wasn't planned when the Cobalt was designed, so that is why it's so similar. There was an article that explicitly says that Pontiac didn't want that car. The dealers did.

What makes the Solstice better than a Sky?  In fact, almost every article I read about the Sky puts the Sky as a better car - even faster through the slaloms!  WTF?

Interestingly, me any my friends were talking about this. Solstice and Sky, although being the same car, have completely different styling. Being NA Opel, Saturn needed the Sky. But otherwise, styling I would say the Solstice is different enough from the Sky. It's a like it or hate it thing.

What makes a G6 better than a Malibu or a Saab 9-3?

The Malibu is ugly, and not available with a stick. Saab 9-3 isn't even Epsilon (technically, Saab made too much structural changes), its size is almost comparable to the Cobalt, hence they are different markets.

Why buy a Torrent over an Equinox, Vue or the upcoming GMC clone?

Agreed on this one, but I can see the Torrent do well if it didn't get the Chinese 3.4L and have more performance options available, e.g. different ride heights and driving dynamics. And what GMC clone are you talking about? The GMC is a Lambda. And if GMC is getting a version, Torrent will die for sure. Pontiac-GMC is one division under GM's structure.

THAT is what's wrong with Pontiac. 

THAT is what's wrong with GM...  cannibalist competition, lack of brand identity...  bla bla bla...  so, yeah, go ahead & make all the Ponties RWD...  meanwhile, by default Chevy, Buick, GM, Saturn will all have a version of that RWD car & the cycle will start all over again.

Pontiac, I'm sorry to say, has no reason to exist in GM's line-up.

Platform sharing can work just as well, if done correctly.

Look at Honda and Acura. Look at Citroen and Peugeot. Look at Fiat and Alfa Romeo. The list goes on...

Edited June 9, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[Cory Wolfe]

We know that it was coming. They are the same car. The G5 wasn't planned when the Cobalt was designed, so that is why it's so similar. There was an article that explicitly says that Pontiac didn't want that car. The dealers did.

Yes. That's why the Cobalt has 4 different front clips, yet Pontiac gets a grill piece.

[CaddyXLR-V]

No, I didn't miss the point.  Other brands platform share, but most of those vehicles that are sharing platforms do not directly compete with each other.  Camrys & ES300s do not compete directly with each other, for example.  When any brand re-produces a model at the same or similar price point, it's idiotic in my book.  I don't care what brand is doing it.

Thankifully, GM is getting better at platform sharing, but they have so many brands they need to produce new products for, they simply do not have the budget to create unique models for each brand.

This is why Lutz's plan to have Saturn share models with Opel is brilliant.  IMO, it ensures the future of Saturn more than any move since the division was created.

Pontiac, however, just seems lost.  Pontiac might make sense to me if there were no Red Line Saturns, no SS Chevys etc.  Will the Pursuit outrun a Cobalt SS?  The Solstice, if test drives are to be believed, cannot outrun a Sky...  That, to me, sounds like Pontiac is completely lost.

If you ask me, Pontiac should, if left alive, be treated like an in-house tuner firm...  Send them your 260hp Sky & they'll turn it into a 300hp STI killer.  As it is now, it's just an also-ran & will remain one under this "new" plan...  they should call it the deja-vu plan, imo.

Well if Pontiac went all RWD, they wouldn't be shared. All of GM is not going RWD. The compact RWD Pontiac will be a better performer than the Cobalt/Astra, the midsize RWD Pontiac will be a better performer than the Malibu. The reasons you stated are why Pontiac needs to go all RWD. Pontiacs current lineup is pointless, but that doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.

[Mr.Krinkle]

id take a g6 over a malibu any day of the week.

id take a ws6 over a camaro--probably, but wouldnt complain either way.

id even take the g5 over a cobalt

there are differences. perhaps they need to be exaggerated more so but the framework is still there. im gonna go ahead and guess once the restructuring truly starts to take hold well see the changes.

thats what makes the task at hand so difficult right now. for the last 20-30 years things were just floating along, no big deal. only recently someone woke up and realized slick names or radical concepts arent enough.

[roopull]

Well if Pontiac went all RWD, they wouldn't be shared. All of GM is not going RWD. The compact RWD Pontiac will be a better performer than the Cobalt/Astra, the midsize RWD Pontiac will be a better performer than the Malibu. The reasons you stated are why Pontiac needs to go all RWD. Pontiacs current lineup is pointless, but that doesn't mean it needs to stay that way.

I hope you're right. Stranger things have happened at GM afterall. I mean, who ever thought - three or four years ago - that Saturn would have one he!! of a roadster, a good looking SUV & an even better looking one on the way (complete with hybrid version,) and a European based L replacement? Not I!!! I hope they get this right!

[evok]

GM's Divisional General Managers back then DID have the titles of "Vice-President" just like Ed Mertz did back when I worked for Buick.

Mertz ('86-97) did not have the discretionary authority & divisional budget that earlier decades' GMs had. The point was that, not their job title.

Division GMs have had 'VP' titles since '33.

How'd I do, evok?

THe VP/GMs of the Divisions have been useless since the regulatory period began in the 1970's. The Roger Smith re-org in the mid 1980s was the final straw.

[ponchoman49]

Pontiac had a great opportunity with the redesigned G-body for 2006 to make a nice updated distinctive Bonneville with class leading 6 speed automatic transmission, higher output 3.6 DOHC V6, 320 hp version of the Northstar and Pontiac styling and sport thrown in. In there cheapness and total desire to kill off the brand completely wasted this opportunity to make a stand out Avalon/Azera killer. The G5 is a joke with a dumb name. The G6 could have been a lot better and should have had at least the coupe introduce with the sedan. The Vibe is a Toyota! The Grand Prix, in name only, was a half baked effert, dropping the Trans Am completely was utter stupidity and the GTO was a lame duck from the get go! Honestly I don't think GM has a clue what to do with this division anymore.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Note to roopull: The G5 will not be comparable to the Cobalt SS/SS Supercharged. With the G5, there is no performance variant (read "GX/P") available with the supercharged Ecotec as in the SS Supercharged, nor is there one with a suspension package like the regular SS Coupe and Sedan. (Not to my knowledge, anyway.) The car is really only comparable to the Base package to the LT package Cobalts.

Stupid? Pretty much. Performance compact? No.

[The O.C.]

I guess now that I think about it.....it seems really pointless to offer a SKY and a Solstice. And it seems pointless to offer an AURA and a G6.

To me, minor styling differences aside, the cars are too similar and hit too close to the same points in their respective markets.

Both an OUTLOOK and a (GMC) Acadia seem pretty pointless as well.

[regfootball]

I guess now that I think about it.....it seems really pointless to offer a SKY and a Solstice.  And it seems pointless to offer an AURA and a G6.

To me, minor styling differences aside, the cars are too similar and hit too close to the same points in their respective markets.

Both an OUTLOOK and a (GMC) Acadia seem pretty pointless as well.

SKY and SOLSTICE are both selling

[Chicagoland]

"dropping the Trans Am completely was utter stupidity "

No, it was the Firebird line that was dropped completely, the TA was just a trim level. Why do some still call all Firebirds "Trans Am"s?

GM had to pay a fee for every Trans AM made to the TA racing series. So, it saves them $$ to drop the TA name. But maybe Firebird name has a chance.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

No, it was the Firebird line that was dropped completely, the TA was just a trim level. Why do some still call all Firebirds "Trans Am's"?

I wonder why, too.

GM had to pay a fee for every Trans AM made to the TA racing series. So, it saves them $$ to drop the TA name. But maybe Firebird name has a chance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a contract or something that states that GM must offer a Trans Am package if it builds a Firebird any year? You know. Like the whole Impala/Oshawa issue?

Edited June 11, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[balthazar]

>>"...isn't there a contract or something that states that GM must offer a Trans Am package if it builds a Firebird any year?"<<

No, there's nothing at all like that.

[The O.C.]

SKY and SOLSTICE are both selling

.....and probably only cannibilizing each other.

[pow]

.....and probably only cannibilizing each other.

Hardly. I'd never consider a Solstice, but I find the SKY alluring. The two seem to target different demographics; every Solstice driver I've seen is grey haired.

[ZL-1]

id take a g6 over a malibu any day of the week.

I would too, but the issue for me is that when I first saw a G6 at a FL mall I got the impression the G6 is just another car built to compete with Camry/Accord, one that offers nothing above what a properly executed Malibu would offer. I fail to see where the 'excitement' is regarding the G6...

Edited June 11, 2006 by ZL-1

[ToniCipriani]

They didn't quite get the excitement part right in the production G6, but the difference is there between the G6 and the Malibu.

As I wrote in my review the G6 drives more like a coupe.

[Chicagoland]

.....and probably only cannibilizing each other.

No, they are sold out and no, they are not meant to "beat Mustang sales".

Sky is bringing in new blood to Saturn. No, Pontiac is not going to be the only division that sells Kappa cars.

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a contract or something that states that GM must offer a Trans Am package if it builds a Firebird any year? You know. Like the whole Impala/Oshawa issue?"

Where do some of these rumors come from "Weekly World News" or "The National Enquirer"?

"Aliens are making new Oldsmobiles on Mars"

Edited June 13, 2006 by Chicagoland

[Northstar]

As I wrote in my review the G6 drives more like a coupe.

How does it drive more like a coupe? What does a coupe drive like? Sportier?

[Northstar]

As for the article, Flint does make some good points, but GM doesn't necessarily need Pontiac to sell in the numbers it used to so long as GM as a whole sells in as big or bigger numbers.

I am not against seeing rear-wheel-drive cars in Pontiac showrooms...

My problem is with the 180-degree shift in strategy and with what Pontiac might be losing in its quest to distinguish itself from GM's other divisions.

How is it a shift in strategy? As far as I'm concerned, Pontiac's startegy was always (at least advertised as) being the sporty division from GM. I don't think the strategy is really changing, it's how that strategy is being executed.

For starters, an auto division cannot survive today without offering trucks, such as sport utility vehicles and minivans.

Wrong. I'm pretty sure Toyota would do okay only selling cars, even if trucks are still important to them. Same thing for Honda. Prior to the Pilot, Honda was the CR-V and cars, and they did perfectly fine. If Pontiac accomplishes what GM wants it to accomplish, then obviously it will survive. Flint should have said an auto company cannot survive without trucks. Toyota has a division without trucks that's doing well: Scion.

If Pontiac offers only RWD passenger cars, where does that leave Buick, the third division in these new, combined-sales outlets?

Umm, that leaves Buick as the upscale division above Pontiac, with a FWD LaCrosse and RWD Lucerne. The LaCrosse would be for the ES350 type, while the Lucerne targets people who want a lot of room and smooth, less sporty ride, something that Pontiac wouldn't offer.

Without front-drive cars or SUVs, it's hard to see Pontiac selling hundreds of thousands of vehicles per year. The secret to success is making cars that consumers want to buy.

Is it just me or is this a bit contradictory? If the secret to success is making cars that consumers want to buy, and Pontiac builds cars that consumers want to buy, what's the problem again?

The problem today is that Pontiac is just a marketing arm, not a true automotive division.

Before Flint claimed that not automotive division could survive without trucks, but if they're just a marketing arm of a division (BPG) that sells trucks, why does it matter?

Rear drive is not going to save Pontiac without proper execution, but front drive isn't going to save it even if the cars are great. There's no reason for Camcord owners to buy a G6, so why not give other people a reason to buy a G6 (even if they aren't Camcord buyers) by making it RWD, something that no one else offers and some people really want?

[ToniCipriani]

How does it drive more like a coupe? What does a coupe drive like? Sportier?

It may be subjective, but when you sit inside the car, it doesn't feel like a sedan. Maybe because of the sloping rear.

Compare that to the roofline of the Malibu, I consider that to be more of a sedan-like sedan.

[Northstar]

It may be subjective, but when you sit inside the car, it doesn't feel like a sedan. Maybe because of the sloping rear.

Compare that to the roofline of the Malibu, I consider that to be more of a sedan-like sedan.

I see what your saying now, and I agree. What threw me off was the part about it "drives" more like a coupe... I intrepreted that to mean the handling/steering was somehow more "coupelike" and didn't understand what that meant.

[Mr.Krinkle]

i saw a sky for the first time the other day, and i gotta say it didnt have the same impact when i saw the solstice. maybe impact isnt the best choice of words...but nonetheless, it looked good but i could definately see the difference in attitudes and styling.

basically, if you want a solstice i dont think youd "settle" for the sky, or vice versa.

theres a more visceral or Americanness with the pontiac. the sky seems to be more refined and elegant.

[roopull]

Note to roopull: The G5 will not be comparable to the Cobalt SS/SS Supercharged. With the G5, there is no performance variant (read "GX/P") available with the supercharged Ecotec as in the SS Supercharged, nor is there one with a suspension package like the regular SS Coupe and Sedan. (Not to my knowledge, anyway.) The car is really only comparable to the Base package to the LT package Cobalts.

Stupid? Pretty much. Performance compact? No.

So...... the G5 will be LESS exciting than the other cars that share it's chassis/platform/whatever? Pathetic.

[ToniCipriani]

I see what your saying now, and I agree. What threw me off was the part about it "drives" more like a coupe... I intrepreted that to mean the handling/steering was somehow more "coupelike" and didn't understand what that meant.

My bad, poor wording.

But technically, a coupe and sedan shouldn't have that much of difference in driving dynamics (now I mean the mechanical one). Only a covertible should have a difference, because it doesn't have the rigid roof, isn't it?

[Guest YellowJacket894]

>>"...isn't there a contract or something that states that GM must offer a Trans Am package if it builds a Firebird any year?"<<

No, there's nothing at all like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry. I was confused with something else...

[lostletters]

Platform sharing can work just as well, if done correctly.

Look at Honda and Acura. Look at Citroen and Peugeot. Look at Fiat and Alfa Romeo. The list goes on...

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Actually I would say eliminate Buick, which is to qoute somebody, "the car you die in". Buicks gap as a lower priced luxury car can be filled by expanding the Caddy line. If there is any line that has an age problem in GM, its buick. The fact is Pontiac has one advantage, it is the ONLY line that appeals to younger drivers. Eliminating it would be a failed policy. But setting it apart is necessary, but RWD exclusivity is NOT the way to do it. It would kill Pontiac's largest sales market: Chicago.

With that being said, going all RWD is a big mistake. Offering AWD on all models and focusing on performance oriented cars is probably a better way to go. As much as RWD is touted by warm weather folks, it is impracticle in colder climates. While having RWD is a good idea on SOME models, it would a bad idea to make it standard across the brand. I think once the g8 comes out to replace the grand prix, it should be the LAST RWD vehicle with pontiac. Keep the G6 FWD, but give it an AWD option.

Make AWD an option on all pontiac car models.

Also the guy is wrong in saying that trucks are necessary in any successful auto brand. This is a myth, especially in the era of rising gas prices. Part of the problem with Pontiac is a performance CAR division began to incorporate SUVs more and more.

[ToniCipriani]

Next G6 is on EPII, and it will have AWD, from what I heard so far.

GMX387 EPII G6 Sedan, GMX327 EPII G6 Coupe.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tedkrygier/future.htm

Edited August 6, 2006 by ToniCipriani

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Actually I would say eliminate Buick, which is to qoute somebody, "the car you die in." Buicks gap as a lower priced luxury car can be filled by expanding the Caddy line. If there is any line that has an age problem in GM, its Buick.

Okay, folks, stop saying GM should elminate brands. When GM killed Olds, they were sent into something of a cluster f@#k for a bit. And elminating brands doesn't increase profit. It just amounts to money wasted and money that can't be earned back.

But, GM needs to expand the Buick line somewhat. I'd say if they had a range of five products instead of just three (LaCrosse/Allure, Lucerne, and Enclave), they would make more sense. Buick sort of bridges a gap between Chevy and Cadillac -- Buick is luxury available to working class America.

The fact is Pontiac has one advantage, it is the ONLY line that appeals to younger drivers.  Eliminating it would be a failed policy.  But setting it apart is necessary, but RWD exclusitivity is NOT the way to do it.  It would kill Pontiac's largest sales market: Chicago.

A full rear-drive line being a Pontiac-only feature is a good thing in my opinion. Pontiac is supposed to be a performance division with BMW, among other brands, set in their target crosshairs. Front-drive just doesn't cut it, and I will tell you why in a moment.

As for Chicago, they'll just learn how to use traction control or order all-wheel drive.

With that being said, going all RWD is a big mistake. Offering AWD on all models and focusing on performance oriented cars is probably a better way to go.  As much as RWD is touted by warm weather folks, it is impracticle in colder climates.

This statement contradicts itself, if you ask me. You can offer all-wheel drive on a rear-drive car and be geared to performance aspirations. In fact, this statement is downright fumbling and stupid.

Just to let you know, rear-drive is pratical in colder climates. Most rear-drive cars have, as I mentioned earlier, traction control or an all-wheel drive option. People who sit behind the wheel of a car need to know how to drive any car and not let the car mask their shortcomings if possible.

And front-drive cars aren't that sporty. Case closed. Give a front-drive car more than 300-horsepower and you meet an ugly fiend: torque-steer. Not very sporty.

Front-drive made sense in the Eighties when cars were saddled down with powerplants that couldn't even breach 175 raving horsepower with even eight cylinders. Although nose heavy, a front-drive car could cope with that. And quite nicely I might add.

Today, a four-cylinder engine can make 260-horsepower with the right tweaks. A six-banger can do probably twice that much. And just think about a V-8. Can front-drive take that kind of peformance on without vulgar shortcomings? The answer is no, no, and no, your honor. You shouldn't have to fight with your car about where you want to go when you feel the speeding demon possesing your soul. That doesn't say "performance." That says "cheap and half-baked."

While having RWD is a good idea on SOME models, it would a bad idea to make it standard across the brand.

Wrong.

I think once the g8 comes out to replace the grand prix, it should be the LAST RWD vehicle with pontiac.

Wrong again. The GTO should be rear-drive as well, if not, of course, having rear-drive standard across the line.

Keep the G6 FWD, but give it an AWD option.

No.

Make AWD an option on all pontiac car models.

Common sense here.

Also the guy is wrong in saying that trucks are necessary in any successful auto brand.  This is a myth, especially in the era of rising gas prices.  Part of the problem with Pontiac is a performance CAR division began to incorporate SUVs more and more.

I agree with this. And, plus, a Pontiac SUV looks like &#036;h&#33; any way you make it.

Edited August 7, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[balthazar]

Also the guy is wrong in saying that trucks are necessary in any successful auto brand.  This is a myth, especially in the era of rising gas prices.

Tell that to porsche; their SUV is keeping their head above water.

[enzl]

Also the guy is wrong in saying that trucks are necessary in any successful auto brand.  This is a myth, especially in the era of rising gas prices.

Tell that to porsche; their SUV is keeping their head above water.

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Not anymore.

Sedan/928 are a go for '09.

Niche product is where it's at nowadays. (see 4 dr. coupes, crossovers, small MAV).

The next segment creation yields much smaller total numbers. (No more 64 Stangs, more Hummer H3's or MercB CLS's)