USPS awards next gen mail vehicle contract to Oshkosh Defense

[balthazar]

It's an 'open quantity' 10-yr contract with an initial advance of $462 million, for a guaranteed volume between 50K and 165K vehicles.

The current fleet of Grumman LLV mail trucks were built between '87 & '94, designed for a 24-yr lifespan (which they've all exceeded). Those use the GM 'Iron Duke' 4-cylinder/THM 3-spd trans.

The next generation Oshkosh trucks will be powered by a mix of battery-electric and low-emission internal combustion powertrains. They're also getting A/C, automatic braking, collision avoidance & 360-degree cameras. 

No word yet from D.C. regarding their announced forward policy of 'replacing all government fleet vehicles with electrics'.

Oshkosh beat out Karsan & Workhorse on the contract.

- - - - - 
Feast your eyeballs on the world's largest windshield : 

Edited February 24, 2021 by balthazar

[ykX]

Boy, it is ugly!

At least it will have modern amenities for the postal workers and Oshkosh is a good company.

If you squint hard enough it will be like you almost driving this:

[oldshurst442]

Function over form.  It looks small but big enough. Nimble.  

Looks like the postal worker need not leave the truck to deliver mail in that mail box.  I guess when the situation and mail box allows that to happen.

Just to compliment that military pic, Ill do one of my one too.  

This 'Hog' of  plane is one ugly mother, but it does its one job very, very VERYwell! 

Function over form

Edited February 24, 2021 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Looks like the postal worker need not leave the truck to deliver mail in that mail box.

Is this a Canada thing? All my life, carriers with a vehicle always reach out the window for mailboxes.

[Robert Hall]

18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Is this a Canada thing? All my life, carriers with a vehicle always reach out the window for mailboxes.

That would be the case if the neighborhood has curbside mailboxes.   In my neighborhood, they park their ancient Grumman trucklet and walk up and down the street on both sides to deliver to the mailboxes (which are either attached to the house or like mine, a mailslot by the front door).    Usually make separate passes for packages vs. letter mail. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

Like Olds said, it's certainly function over form and it ought to be if it's on our dime. I can guarantee the carriers themselves will LOVE having HVAC finally. 

I'd like to know a little more about these powertrain options though. What kind of hybrid/EV will it be? What kind of range(if EV)? 

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Like Olds said, it's certainly function over form and it ought to be if it's on our dime. I can guarantee the carriers themselves will LOVE having HVAC finally. 

 

I remember chatting w/ my mail carrier in Phoenix some years ago, he said the old Grummans would get really hot inside in the summer (and sometimes would catch fire and get hotter). 

[Robert Hall]

The front end styling reminds me of a Freightliner medium duty truck front that's been cartoonized. 

 

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Is this a Canada thing? All my life, carriers with a vehicle always reach out the window for mailboxes.

My neighborhood has two types, the walk up to each door to put the mail in the door slot and the grouping of mail boxes where the mail man can drive up and reach out the window to put the mail in the box.

I do wish the USPS would change all the old neighborhoods to grouped mailboxes for better efficiency. The days of walking to each home is way too inefficient and the home owners can walk to the post box for their group of mailboxes. This would save a ton of time

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, David said:

 

I do wish the USPS would change all the old neighborhoods to grouped mailboxes for better efficiency. The days of walking to each home is way too inefficient and the home owners can walk to the post box for their group of mailboxes. This would save a ton of time

I like the convenience of the mail slot.  Don't have to go outside to get my mail..  Walking to a grouped box would be tedious, esp. in winter.  Plus walking door to door gives the delivery people the opportunity to get exercise.

[G. David Felt]

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I like the convenience of the mail slot.  Don't have to go outside to get my mail..  Walking to a grouped box would be tedious, esp. in winter.  Plus walking door to door gives the delivery people the opportunity to get exercise.

While I can understand the convenience for the household, it is not efficient in this modern world and today, with running billion dollar deficit's, the USPS needs to get more efficient. This would take a burden off the tax payers.

Plus why not have more exercise for the home owners?

[balthazar]

Isn’t the USPS deficit due to pension underfundment, not operational costs?

Also, nothing - short of segments of the military - run by the Gov’t is efficient. Those 2 things are mutually exclusive.

Edited February 24, 2021 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Isn’t the USPS deficit due to pension underfundment, not operational costs?

Also, nothing - short of segments of the military - run by the Gov’t is efficient. Those 2 things are mutually exclusive.

From looking at their own reporting both pension funds and guaranteed pay increases and benefit increases. It will take an act of congress to really fix things here including changing old static ways to more 21st century modern ways including removal of all old physical walking mail delivery and moving to modern grouped mail box areas.

GAO-19-157SP, HIGH-RISK SERIES: Substantial Efforts Needed to Achieve Greater Progress on High-Risk Areas

U.S. GAO - High Risk: USPS Financial Viability

Interesting outside group is pushing for a modern change at the USPS.

CAGW Leads Coalition Letter to USPS Board of Governors | Council For Citizens Against Government Waste (ccagw.org)

USPS Ends Another Fiscal Year With Billion-Dollar Losses | Citizens Against Government Waste (cagw.org)

To quote from this 2019:

Even more concerning is that large portion of the USPS’ losses are outside of the management’s control.  This includes a $3.5 billion increase in workers’ compensation costs, $994 million in contractual pay increases, and $320 million in retirement benefits expenses “due largely to the higher amortization costs of unfunded benefits.” However, even if the uncontrollable losses are removed from the net loss calculation, the USPS still ran a $3.4 billion deficit for FY 2019.  “We continued to make progress in the fiscal year in containing expenses that are under management’s control,” said USPS Chief Financial Officer Joseph Corbett. “However, actions within the control of the Postal Service are not enough to return the Postal Service to financial health.”

[balthazar]

Simple- just quadruple the cost of all mailings & eliminate the loophole of 'fleet pricing' for mass mailings/advertising.
Tomorrow at the opening of business; a first class letter costs $2.20.

It's just like BE's- you gotta spend 2-4 times what you were used to, to 'save' something. Everyone loves doing that/can afford it; this is America!! 

[oldshurst442]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

Is this a Canada thing? All my life, carriers with a vehicle always reach out the window for mailboxes.

I dont know...

Ive never seen a Canadian postal worker deliver mail straight out of his vehicle.

While its true that in my neighborhood, we got the group box thing going on, but even in the older parts of Montreal, the mail slots are at the dwelling itself.  No curbside mailboxes like in the older parts of American suburbia where white picket fences reside that Ive seen...  Maybe they do exist in Quebec, and I know they do, but I havent seen postal workers work in these areas...

 

 

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Have to say that the news covering this new Ugly Duckling is too funny as are the posts on Twitter.

The new USPS trucks are delivering strong reactions — here are some first-class responses (msn.com)

[balthazar]

History of electric postal vehicles :

https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/electric-vehicles.pdf

[balthazar]

 

- - - - -
RE the Oshkosh mail truck : of course it's hideously ugly. 
With all the ubiquitous gassing about tech & futurism, I was offhandedly expecting something more 'pod-like' if we're likely going to still be looking at them in the year 2060. These look like they were designed in 1985.

UPS has touted this image as a future vehicle- why not a teensy bit sleeker (not Oshkosh's bag, I know) : 

[oldshurst442]

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/23/22297823/usps-postal-service-mail-truck-electric-oshkosh-workhorse

 

Quote

Oshkosh still has to finalize the design of the mail truck, which is part of the reason for the two-year wait.

 

I personally dont mind its looks. Its looks weird Ill admit. But I kinda like it.  The Arrival van looks OK. Better than the Oshkosh. But for whatever reason, I prefer the looks of the Oshkosh.  

 

[daves87rs]

That thing is scary.......

[G. David Felt]

10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/23/22297823/usps-postal-service-mail-truck-electric-oshkosh-workhorse

 

 

I personally dont mind its looks. Its looks weird Ill admit. But I kinda like it.  The Arrival van looks OK. Better than the Oshkosh. But for whatever reason, I prefer the looks of the Oshkosh.  

 

Have to disagree with you as the Oshkosh looks old, cheap and does not reflect where the USPS needs to go with efficiency and future. UPS is far better even as an ugly pod over the Oshkosh. I have to also wonder due to the USPS Head being a Lackey from POTUS45 and Oshkosh being a Potus45 supporter how much under the table money exchanged hands to get this contract for the Billions and then as you state, 2 years before the final actual truck comes out. If this is not the actual truck which is what is implied and they showed off an ICE, no hybrid or EV version compared to the others, how did they win this contract then if not for paying off certain individuals.

I think the other vendors had a far better design and all included the ability for the postal worker to stand up in the back and carry larger packages. They also proved they had Hybrid / EV working concepts.

We do not need the ICE versions, Hybrid for very rural long distance and EV for the cities and suburbans is what should be built.

8 hours ago, daves87rs said:

That thing is scary.......

Reminds me of a Mad Max world of Postal delivery.

[oldshurst442]

26 minutes ago, David said:

Have to disagree with you

You are disagreeing with me liking the Oshkosh's weird styling?

I like how it looks. Nothing more, nothing less.  I like many weird looking things.  I like the A10 Warthog. I like the F4 Phantom II.   I like the Nissan Juke Nismo...   

I never talked about its qualities and qualifications as nobody knows how it will performs.

Many programs such as this actually change the exterior stylings somewhat when they actually become real

All changes before and during WW2. Between Willys and Ford and Bantam. Tweaks here and there. 

 

  

 

concept Volt

What we actually got

 

26 minutes ago, David said:

UPS is far better

We dont know that. You are solely judging it by the wat it looks.

And...

26 minutes ago, David said:

USPS Head being a Lackey from POTUS45 and Oshkosh being a Potus45 supporter how much under the table money exchanged hands to get this contract for the Billions

You got no proof of that...

Biden is the Chief in Command now...not Trump...

No need to go there...

Edited February 25, 2021 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You are disagreeing with me liking the Oshkosh's weird styling?

I like how it looks. Nothing more, nothing less.  I like many weird looking things.  I like the A10 Warthog. I like the F4 Phantom II.   I like the Nissan Juke Nismo...   

I never talked about its qualities and qualifications as nobody knows how it will performs.

Many programs such as this actually change the exterior stylings somewhat when they actually become real

 

  http://nhatrangadventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/1280px-Willys-MA-3-1-640x480.jpg

 

concept Volt

What we actually got

 

We dont know that. You are solely judging it by the wat it looks.

And...

You got no proof of that...

Biden is the Chief in Command now...not Trump...

No need to go there...

Yes agreeing with the weird styling that I do not like. UPS is better looking IMHO even though it is an ugly pod design, it still looks more 21st century than 19th century of Oshkosh.

Understand the Volt, but for this the USPS potential vendors were to supply a near ready concept, not one that needs two years of work till they decide on the final design.

The push on this by Oshkosh has been heavy over the last 4 years. The current head of USPS was put in there by Potus45 and that is the point that it is an interesting observation that two companies that did not support Potus45 did not get the contract compared to the one that does support Potus45 and the head he assigned to the USPS.

That is all I am pointing out, not making this political, just pointing out an interesting observation of true green companies offering what I believe is a better design compared to a military connected company with ties to Potus45 and the USPS leader who is a Potus45 supporter.

The question has to be asked how much politically is this driven versus the other two companies were ready to go into production with their offerings, but we have to wait 2 years and half a billion dollars paid by the tax payers for them to actually engineer a final working version.

This raises big red flags for me as to the real valid ability of Oshkosh offering.

I believe the other companies have a valid reason to see the details of why Oshkosh was chosen.

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Yes agreeing with the weird styling that I do not like

You cant disagree with me liking it.

YOU may hate it. But you cant disagree with ME liking it...

That is like Ocnblu downvoting my Toyota Hilux and 4Runner pics... 

You wanna have a discourse with me on why I should NOT like the styling?   

6 minutes ago, David said:

even though it is an ugly pod design, it still looks more 21st century than 19th century of Oshkosh.

Who cares how it looks IF it performs the way it should.

The Chevrolet Volt (that we actually got) was an UGLY design too.  BUT it worked because it had (still has?) the LOWEST air coefficient drag of ANY production vehicle. To help with range efficiency with less friction and drag...

Function over form...

Its not about winning beauty contests.  

If we are honest, the Porsche 911 is an ugly car. I know you agree to this. But the 911  is a sports car beast...literally. Its ugly, but it outperforms its competition... by a landslide at times. 

12 minutes ago, David said:

This raises big red flags for me as to the real valid ability of Oshkosh offering.

I believe the other companies have a valid reason to see the details of why Oshkosh was chosen.

That has NOTHING to do with its style nor its ability to get the job done.  And you cant have any answers to this as you do not know how well it will perform its postal duties... 

[ccap41]

18 minutes ago, David said:

The push on this by Oshkosh has been heavy over the last 4 years. The current head of USPS was put in there by Potus45 and that is the point that it is an interesting observation that two companies that did not support Potus45 did not get the contract compared to the one that does support Potus45 and the head he assigned to the USPS.

They could have done nothing and been 4 years behind. 

I know you prefer the single pod design but I'd wager there's more safety built into these by actually having a crumple zone in front of the drivers. 

[G. David Felt]

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You cant disagree with me liking it.

YOU may hate it. But you cant disagree with ME liking it...

That is like Ocnblu downvoting my Toyota Hilux and 4Runner pics... 

You wanna have a discourse with me on why I should NOT like the styling?   

Who cares how it looks IF it performs the way it should.

The Chevrolet Volt (that we actually got) was an UGLY design too.  BUT it worked because it had (still has?) the LOWEST air coefficient drag of ANY production vehicle. To help with range efficiency with less friction and drag...

Function over form...

Its not about winning beauty contests.  

If we are honest, the Porsche 911 is an ugly car. I know you agree to this. But the 911  is a sports car beast...literally. Its ugly, but it outperforms its competition... by a landslide at times. 

That has NOTHING to do with its style nor its ability to get the job done.  And you cant have any answers to this as you do not know how well it will perform its postal duties... 

Correct, my apologies, I do not disagree with you liking it, I disagree with you that it is a good looking auto. We each have a right to what we find attractive and not attractive.

I understand the volt did well for what it was, and it was not a beauty same with the Porsche 911.

I do have that right and I posted that I question how Oshkosh won the contract in comparison to the others as well as the interesting connection politically. I feel they failed to deliver a working green 21st century solution as they delivered an ICE auto and said they can do hybrid and ev. The others delivered a better working version IMHO.

We agree to disagree on the auto.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, David said:

I disagree with you that it is a good looking auto.

I never said it was a good looking vehicle.

I said its weird looking. From the very start... 

3 minutes ago, David said:

We each have a right to what we find attractive and not attractive.

We agree to disagree on the auto.

We actually dont disagree.  We BOTH think its ugly.  I just LIKE it...   I just find a certain charm to it.  For whatever inexplicable reason.  Hey...I also bought a 2012 Acura TL because I like the TL's style too.   I recognize its one ugly motherphoquer...

9 minutes ago, David said:

I do have that right and I posted that I question how Oshkosh won the contract in comparison to the others as well as the interesting connection politically.

Yes you do.  I dont mind that.  I know of one dude though that will throw a hissy fit...

10 minutes ago, David said:

I feel they failed to deliver a working green 21st century solution as they delivered an ICE auto and said they can do hybrid and ev.

You dont know how well it will perform.

I actually applaud the fact that it could be converted from ICE to EV.  Best of BOTH worlds in 2021...  And if there is NO issues in converting older ICE versions to EVs in a decade from now...awesome.  

[G. David Felt]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

They could have done nothing and been 4 years behind. 

I know you prefer the single pod design but I'd wager there's more safety built into these by actually having a crumple zone in front of the drivers. 

I understand they could have done nothing. I also do agree with you that this might have more protection over the pod design.

Honestly, I think many of the other designs were better looking than this version of pure Oshkosh. I honestly like the Ford/Oshkosh design they originally submitted.

Ford/Oshkosh - Hybrid

Oshkosh alone solution - ice

Grumman Version - Hybrid

Mahindra working concept - Diesel

Workhorse concept - awd ev

AM General - ice

Is interesting that when they got down to the final 3 companies, this was a 7 year contract worth 6.3 billion and ford/oshkosh was a working group still and now it is just Oshkosh with a 10 year contract and 8 plus billion. Continues to balloon up. Will be interesting to see the final auto and what the actual cost will end up being.

Ford van used was the best looking at the time, I just do not get why they have to be so freakin ugly!

[ccap41]

Personally, as it's our tax dollars, i could give two ?s less what it looks like. I want it to function, be economical, and do the job that's needed from it. Appearance would be at the VERY bottom of the list of things I care about. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by ccap41

[ccap41]

31 minutes ago, David said:

Oshkosh alone solution - ice

"The vehicles will be equipped with either fuel-efficient internal combustion engines or battery electric powertrains and can be retrofitted to keep pace with advances in electric vehicle technologies."

https://about.usps.com/newsroom/national-releases/2021/0223-multi-billion-dollar-modernization-of-postal-delivery-vehicle-fleet.htm

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by ccap41

[G. David Felt]

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

"The vehicles will be equipped with either fuel-efficient internal combustion engines or battery electric powertrains and can be retrofitted to keep pace with advances in electric vehicle technologies."

https://about.usps.com/newsroom/national-releases/2021/0223-multi-billion-dollar-modernization-of-postal-delivery-vehicle-fleet.htm

 

Yes that is what they say, what they provided was an ICE only.

[oldshurst442]

26 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Appearance would be at the VERY bottom of the list of things I care about. 

I soooooo wanna do a wife joke right here...

I cant bring myself to pull the trigger.   

I apologize though for even thinking about it...

EDIT:

But I cant seem to shake it off.  LOL

Here is a clue as to what I wanted to say...in song form...

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

24 minutes ago, David said:

Yes that is what they say, what they provided was an ICE only.

What do you mean "what they provided..." ? Are you saying the CGI photo has one drivetrain over the other? 

[balthazar]

^ It's a pre-production / evaluation model. 
It doesn't mean that IF the one submitted for evaluation was IC... that Oshkosh cannot/will not provide BE variants. There's a lot more than just motive power under consideration for the contract.

Dey all ugly, and all surprisingly similar. I wonder if it was a requirement to have a 'hood' vs. a flat front design? Aerodynamics is obviously not remotely a factor given the average speed a mail truck does.

I'm curious now about the projections of a BE power train's range and running for an 8-hr day at a crawl. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by balthazar

[ccap41]

42 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ It's a pre-production / evaluation model. 
It doesn't mean that IF the one submitted for evaluation was IC... that Oshkosh cannot/will not provide BE variants. There's a lot more than just motive power under consideration for the contract.

Oh, oh I know. 

I would only assume they certain locations where EV-only would make sense, they would provide those locations with their EV. 

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, David said:

The push on this by Oshkosh has been heavy over the last 4 years. The current head of USPS was put in there by Potus45 and that is the point that it is an interesting observation that two companies that did not support Potus45 did not get the contract compared to the one that does support Potus45 and the head he assigned to the USPS.

That is all I am pointing out, not making this political, just pointing out an interesting observation of true green companies offering what I believe is a better design compared to a military connected company with ties to Potus45 and the USPS leader who is a Potus45 supporter.

The question has to be asked how much politically is this driven versus the other two companies were ready to go into production with their offerings, but we have to wait 2 years and half a billion dollars paid by the tax payers for them to actually engineer a final working version.

This raises big red flags for me as to the real valid ability of Oshkosh offering.

I believe the other companies have a valid reason to see the details of why Oshkosh was chosen.

I'm also not taking any vaccine developed under POTUS45. ?  

[ccap41]

I'm curious if there is an "expected return" on this investment. Like, do they think in 20, 25, 30, etc. years this move will save them money compared to continuing to repair the current fleet? 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

and all surprisingly similar.

And quite ironically, all look like the outgoing Grumman LLV...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

 

Very cool build!

 

 

[G. David Felt]

Interesting coverage of this and the search for a new one. Posted end of 2020.

 

[balthazar]

Chatted briefly with my mail carrier today. Asked her how many miles it had on it but they only have 5-digit odometers (this one said 46K but we agreed that it was much more likely to be at least 246K). She was definitely interested to get a more comfortable truck with A/C, but other than being RHD, she didn't mention anything about 'wants'.