Cadillac News: 2022 Cadillac CT4 and CT5 Blackwing Bring A Performance Edge

[William Maley]

After months of rumors and spy photos, Cadillac finally spilled the beans on their new high-performance CT4 and CT5 Blackwing. These new models are planned to give German rivals a bruising when they start arriving at dealers later this summer. Here is what we know.

CT4 Blackwing

The smaller of the two Blackwing models starts with a twin-turbo 3.6L V6 engine with 472 horsepower and 445 pound-feet of torque. To achieve this power, Cadillac upgraded the various internals with titanium connecting rods and a revised crankshaft. Power is routed to the rear-wheels by either a six-speed manual or ten-speed automatic. Performance figures are impressive with a 0-60 mph time of 3.8 seconds (automatic transmission) and a top speed of 189 mph.

In terms of handling, the CT4 Blackwing features an electronic limited-slip rear differential and latest version of Magnetic Ride Control 4.0 - Cadillac claims the latter is the quickest-reacting suspension in the world. A set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires keep the vehicle glued to the road, while optional optional carbon ceramic brakes bring it to a quick stop.

Visually, the CT4 Blackwing uses a new grille with larger openings to gobble up more air; functional fender vents, front splitter, and a rear spoiler. A carbon fiber package that claims to reduce aerodynamic lift by 214 percent is an option.

CT5 Blackwing

For those who want something a bit more mad can direct their attention to the CT5 Blackwing. Under its hood lies a massaged 6.2L supercharged V8 engine with 668 horsepower and 659 pound-feet of torque. Again, power is routed to the rear-wheels via a six-speed manual or ten-speed automatic. 0-60 mph takes 3.7 seconds (automatic transmission) and can cruise towards 200-plus mph. 

What does this massaged V8 engine have? For starters. there's a larger supercharger (1.7-liters), aluminum cylinder heads, titanium intake valves, and improved airflow. 

Like the CT4, the CT5 Blackwing gets Magnetic Ride Control 4.0 and electronic limited-slip rear differential. A set of forged 19-inch wheels exclusive to the Blackwing come wrapped in a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires. 

Outside, a new grille with larger openings to allow for more air, front splitter, and rear spoiler are the key changes to note. A carbon fiber package is optional.

How Much?

The CT4 Blackwing will set you back $59,990, and the larger CT5 Blackwing will cost $84,990. Both prices include a $995 destination charge. You can head down to your nearest Cadillac dealer to place a pre-order for either model right now.

Source: Cadillac

V-Series Blackwing: Ultimate Track Capability, Zero Compromise

• The 2022 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing and CT5-V Blackwing, two of the most powerful Cadillacs ever, raise the bar on performance

The 2022 Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing and CT4-V Blackwing represent the pinnacle of Cadillac performance and craftsmanship, leveraging championship-winning racing heritage to create the most track-capable Cadillacs ever, while continuing to set new standards for luxury and comfort.

Leveraging a Cadillac racing history that began in 1949 and has seen sustained success over the last two decades, the V-Series Blackwing models were developed with driver engagement and performance at the top of mind.

“V-Series Blackwing stands for the very highest level of execution from Cadillac and offers a distinctly American vision of performance: incredible power and luxurious craftsmanship, with absolutely zero compromise,” said Brandon Vivian, executive chief engineer, Cadillac. “We looked to our championship-winning racing heritage and brought an uncompromising eye for detail to create two cars that elevate the V-Series experience.”

V-Series Blackwing vehicles build on the already excellent performance dynamics of the CT5-V and CT4-V to create the top tier of the Cadillac sedan lineup.

Highlights include:

• Evolutions of the track-ready Cadillac 6.2L Supercharged V8 in the CT5-V Blackwing and 3.6L Twin-Turbo V6 in the CT4-V Blackwing
• Upgraded TREMEC six-speed manual transmission standard
• Available 10-speed automatic transmission
• Electronic Limited Slip Rear Differential enhanced to reduce mass and improve on-track reliability
• Advanced suspension refinements providing greater body control and a more agile feel
• Magnetic Ride Control 4.0, the world’s fastest reacting suspension technology, sharpening the balance between daily-driving comfort and high-performance track capability
• Unique structural enhancements improving steering response and handling on the track
• Cadillac’s largest ever factory-installed brakes, available on the CT5-V Blackwing
• Extensive validation including 12-hour and 24-hour track testing
• Customizable integrated digital gauge cluster with Custom Launch Control and Performance Traction Management settings

Liberating performance
The CT5-V Blackwing uses an upgraded 6.2L supercharged V8 that, thanks to a higher flow air-intake and revised exhaust system, is rated at 668 horsepower (498 kW) and 659 lb-ft of torque (893 Nm), making it the most powerful production Cadillac ever. Each engine is hand-built at GM’s Bowling Green Assembly facility in Kentucky and features a signed engine builder’s plate.

The CT4-V Blackwing sports an evolution of the Cadillac 3.6L Twin-Turbo V6 that features revised control system software and an improved air intake system to create 472 horsepower (352 kW) and 445 lb-ft of torque (603 Nm). The turbos’ low-inertia (titanium-aluminide) turbine wheels enable more precise and responsive application of torque throughout the rev range.

Highlighted features and output:

• CT5-V Blackwing: 6.2L Supercharged V8 - 668 hp, 659 lb-ft of torque
  • GM-estimated top track speed: over 200 mph
  • GM-estimated 0-60 mph: 3.7 seconds (automatic transmission)
  • Most powerful Cadillac ever
  • Air intake airflow is improved by 46 percent vs. the CTS-V
  • Compact, high-output 1.7L four-lobe Eaton supercharger with small-diameter rotors that enable boost to be generated earlier in the rpm band for instantaneous response
  • Rotocast A356T6 aluminum cylinder heads are stronger and handle heat better than conventional aluminum-alloy heads
  • Lightweight titanium intake valves
  • Track-capable wet-sump oiling and vent system with external oil separator and drainback
• CT4-V Blackwing: 3.6L Twin-Turbo V6 - 472 hp, 445 lb-ft of torque
  • GM-estimated top speed: 189 mph
  • GM-estimated 0-60 mph: 3.8 seconds (automatic transmission)
  • Most powerful and fastest Cadillac in the subcompact class
  • Air intake restriction is improved by 39 percent vs. the ATS-V
  • Turbocharger compressors matched for peak efficiency at peak power for optimal track performance
  • Titanium connecting rods (manual transmission only) and revised crankshaft counterweights reduce main/rod bearing reciprocating loads
  • Re-targeted piston oil squirters, which direct engine oil at the bottoms of the pistons, for improved temperature control
  • The manifold-integrated water-to-air charge cooling system contributes to more immediate torque response
  • Airflow routing volume is reduced by 60 percent when compared to a conventional design that features a remotely mounted heat exchanger

Track-capable braking systems
Both V-Series Blackwing models feature advanced high-performance braking systems that have been extensively track and road-tested. The exclusive V-Series Blackwing wheel designs enable an even larger rotor over the previous CTS-V, making the CT5-V Blackwing braking system the largest factory-installed brakes in Cadillac history. Additionally, an available carbon-ceramic brake package for the CT5-V Blackwing, featuring cross-drilled rotors, deliver several benefits including weight savings, durability and heat management.

Highlighted features:

• CT4-V Blackwing: 14.96 x 1.34-inch (380 X 34 mm) front rotors and 13.4 x 1.1-inch (340.5 x 28 mm) rear rotors
• CT5-V Blackwing: 15.67 x 1.42-inch (398 X 36 mm) front rotors and 14.7 x 1.1-inch (373.5 x 28 mm) rear rotors
• Staggered Brembo® six-piston front calipers and four-piston rear calipers
• Available on the CT5-V Blackwing, the lightweight carbon-ceramic brake package significantly improves heat management, as well as greater resistance to wear under extreme conditions on the racetrack, while also reducing unsprung mass and rotating mass:
  • 53-pound (24 kg) reduction in unsprung weight
  • 62-pound (28 kg) reduction in rotating mass
• High-performance copper-free brake linings comply with California law and deliver superior fade resistance with an excellent pedal feel on and off the track
• Brake systems are integrated to each vehicles’ selectable drive modes, including brake pedal feel. Brake pedal feel can also be assigned within My-Mode and V-Mode

Manual transmission is standard
Rare for sport sedans today, a six-speed TREMEC manual transmission is standard on both vehicles. It has been optimized for each V-Series Blackwing vehicle to provide an engaging experience on the track or on the road. Details include:

• LuK twin-disc clutch for high torque capacity and great pedal feel
• Active Rev Matching accessible via a console mounted toggle switch to automatically adjust engine speed to match anticipated downshifts
• No-Lift Shift allowing the driver to shift gears without letting off the gas pedal. In the case of the CT4-V Blackwing, it allows the turbos to remain spooled, resulting in faster lap times
• Transmission and rear differential cooling – the manual and automatic transmissions use the same track-performance cooling system for greater track performance
• Clutch and brake pedals positioned for optimal driver ergonomics
• A physical barrier stop for the clutch pedal rather than a hydraulic master cylinder stop provides greater driver feedback during clutch operation
• A shorter shifter ratio than previous generations for more precise shifts

Ten-speed automatic transmission
The CT5-V Blackwing and CT4-V Blackwing are available with a 10-speed electronically controlled automatic transmission. It is tuned to complement the dual-personality experience of each respective model.

Highlighted features:

• Tap Shift/Manual Mode allowing the driver to use integrated magnesium paddle shifters to select a gear and hold it until selecting the next gear, up or down
• Sport Mode providing real-time interpretation of driving conditions, adjusting the transmission to reduce shift busyness and improve performance, while retaining aggressive driving dynamics
• Twenty-four-hour track testing resulted in several improvements in response to the demands of a high-g track environment, including a unique oil pan design and priority valve changes
• Unique control systems with performance calibrations tailored for each model
• Ten forward gears offer the most available transmission speeds in each sedans’ respective segments, helping keep the engines within their optimal rpm bands, while also anticipating the next shifts
• Dynamic Performance Mode is calibrated specifically for V-Series Blackwing to deliver track focused shift patterns and automatically activates when high-g forces are experienced in Sport or Track mode
• An auxiliary pump primes the automatic transmission system from the time the vehicle door is opened for improved cold-shift performance.

Both V-Series Blackwing models also feature an enhanced Electronic Limited Slip Rear Differential. It weighs less and has been optimized for each driving mode and each Performance Traction Management setting.

Highlighted features:

• More control of the rear differential compared to traditional open and mechanical limited-slip differentials
• Enhances road grip by automatically allocating torque to the rear wheel with the most traction during hard cornering — with the capability of sending up to 1,475 lb-ft (2,000 Nm) of locking torque across the axle
• High-performance differential cooler
• An aluminum housing replacing the previous generation cast iron housing, reducing mass by more than 22 pounds (10 kg)
• Exclusive integrated heat exchanger for enhanced cooling

Advanced suspension systems and strengthened chassis
V-Series Blackwing combines the fourth generation of Magnetic Ride Control (MR 4.0), with improvements to the front and rear suspension systems. Stiffer spring rates, unique hollow stabilizer bars, higher-rate bushings and more enable a driving experience that isolates the driver from road imperfections, while also providing a precise, engaging connection with the road.

MR 4.0 highlights:

• Immense performance envelope that gave Cadillac engineers the freedom to optimize everyday driving and aggressive track performance
• New accelerometers and an inertial measurement unit that transmit and process changes in road conditions four times faster than the previous generation system
• Secondary temperature maps that enable engineers to compensate for changes in damper fluid temperature for more consistent performance, even during performance driving
• Inertial measurement unit that provides more precise measurements of body motion relative to the wheel for more accurate readings under heavy braking, hard cornering and other driving conditions
• Improved magnetic flux control that creates a more consistent and accurate transition between rebound and compression
• Improvements to transient body control that allow the vehicle to remain more level while transitioning between corners

MacPherson strut front suspension:

• Ride link includes an all-new 100-percent elastomer bushing on the CT4-V Blackwing and a retuned hydro bushing on the CT5-V Blackwing, for improved ride response
• Handling link has cross-axis ball joints for improved lateral control and quicker steering response

Five-link independent rear suspension:

• Lateral link features stiffer bushings for faster response and increased cornering agility
• Toe link has cross-axis ball joints for increased stability and driver confidence
• Rear knuckles have increased stiffness for improved braking and better control during cornering
• Rear cradle mounts have been stiffened for optimum balance between road comfort and track performance

V-Series Blackwing models are built on Cadillac’s award-winning rear-wheel drive architecture and feature unique structural enhancements including shock tower braces, an underside shear plate and thicker rear cross members to improve chassis rigidity. Along with the unique suspension elements, the stiffer structure enhances steering response, handling and the everyday driving experience.

All-day performance, on and off the track
The CT5-V Blackwing and CT4-V Blackwing build on Cadillac’s racing heritage and were developed to be track-capable straight from the factory. That includes an intensive validation program to ensure consistent performance during the most challenging track conditions.

Validation for both models included:

• Twenty-four-hour continuous track testing with the available automatic transmission, available carbon fiber aero package, aluminum wheels and available carbon ceramic brake package
• Twelve-hour continuous track testing with the standard manual transmission, available carbon fiber aero package, aluminum wheels and available carbon ceramic brake package

Functional aerodynamics, including an available carbon fiber aero package, contribute to the V-Series Blackwing models’ track prowess to support a variety of cooling needs for the cars’ respective engines, transmissions, axles and other supporting systems.

Additionally, MICHELIN® Pilot Sport 4S tires developed exclusively for the V-Series Blackwing models contribute to their balance of track capability and road comfort. Highlights include:

• Unique, multiple-compound tread composition:
  • Contact patch composed of three unique tread rubber compounds
  • Racing “R compound” used for the majority of the tread
  • Compounds optimized for wet traction, enhanced street and track durability, as well as rolling resistance
• The mold shape of the tire has been specifically engineered for Blackwing models to optimize contact with the road
• Tire sizes:
  • CT5-V Blackwing tire size: 275/35ZR19 (front) and 305/30ZR19 (rear)
  • CT4-V Blackwing tire size: 255/35ZR18 (front) and 275/35ZR18 (rear)

Both V-Series Blackwing vehicles feature standard forged aluminum alloy wheels with staggered widths, front to rear. These forged wheels are stronger and lighter than conventional cast aluminum.

Wheel sizes:

• CT5-V Blackwing: Front – 19 x 10 inches / Rear – 19 x 11 inches
• CT4-V Blackwing: Front – 18 x 9 inches / Rear – 18 x 9.5 inches

Coming this summer
Reservations for both vehicles open on Feb. 1, 2021 at 7:30 p.m. ET on Cadillac.com, with deliveries later this summer. Pricing begins at $59,9901 for the CT4-V Blackwing and $84,9901 for the CT5-V Blackwing.

View full article

[G. David Felt]

These are German Destroying tanks that will eat up anything the M or AMG can throw at them!!!  

[smk4565]

30 minutes ago, David said:

These are German Destroying tanks that will eat up anything the M or AMG can throw at them!!!  

A BMW 340i has the same 0-60 time as the CT4-V Blackwing, not even an M3, just a 340i.  And the Audi RS3 has a 3.5 second 0-60 time, faster than either Blackwing, M5 Competition does 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, etc.  AMG holds the Nurburgring record for 2 door car, 4 door car, and station wagon, and 3rd place for SUV, so I think AMG can handle a Blackwing on a track.  

But that being said, if you liked the ATS-V and CTS-V then I imagine you would like these because it is basically the same powertrains and performance.  Or if you wanted a 4-door Camaro ZL1 with a better interior, the CT5 Blackwing fits the bill.  GM performance fans will buy these up, and I suspect as the Camaro sort of fades away (declining coupe sales), these 2 will pick up some of that market. 

I think the pricing is pretty spot on for the CT4-V, the CLA45, RS3 and 340i are all 56k, with equal options they all probably line up in price pretty close and you have some good comparisons in there.  The CT5 Blackwing I think they should have priced at $79,900 to match the Tesla Model S, but they sold out their first run so I guess no need to.  And given the lower volumes on these, they can probably get people to pay that ask price and not run the risk of getting too big a supply on dealer lots.

[ocnblu]

Just fantastic.  Are these the last great Cadillacs?  Feeling wistful.

[oldshurst442]

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

and I suspect as the Camaro sort of fades away (declining coupe sales), these 2 will pick up some of that market. 

I highly doubt that. 

Mustang and Challenger will however.

 

[smk4565]

6 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I highly doubt that. 

Mustang and Challenger will however.

 

The Challenger can't have much time left given how old the platform is and CAFE and emissions are issues.  They could do a Georgio platform car, or make an EV I guess.  Depends on what Stellantis sees as the future.  

Mustang will always be around, but I suspect the Mach-E will be outselling the traditional gas coupe within a few years.  Mustang has that low start price and convertible they push on rental fleets in Florida.  

Camaro I think is a question mark because there are already rumors that 2023/2024 will be the end of the Camaro.  And these Blackwings are the last new gas V-series Cadillacs.  Although very possible that when all this stuff goes EV, that there is a Camaro EV in the 2025-2030 time frame, but coupe sales are pretty low, Chevy would be better served with an EV sedan at a more affordable price point.

[oldshurst442]

The CT5-V Blackwing is expensive as A-chhh  eee  double hockey sticks. 

I guess price parity for V8 performance for the every day (wo)man doesnt exist. And hasnt really for a loooong time as Mustang GTs, Camaro SSs, Challenger Hemis as ENTRY level V8 performance is unobtanium since at least a decade now, never you mind the ultra performance versions...

 

[oldshurst442]

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Challenger can't have much time left given how old the platform is and CAFE and emissions are issues.  They could do a Georgio platform car, or make an EV I guess.  Depends on what Stellantis sees as the future.  

Mustang will always be around, but I suspect the Mach-E will be outselling the traditional gas coupe within a few years.  Mustang has that low start price and convertible they push on rental fleets in Florida.  

Camaro I think is a question mark because there are already rumors that 2023/2024 will be the end of the Camaro.  And these Blackwings are the last new gas V-series Cadillacs.  Although very possible that when all this stuff goes EV, that there is a Camaro EV in the 2025-2030 time frame, but coupe sales are pretty low, Chevy would be better served with an EV sedan at a more affordable price point.

I should have been more precise with my response to you. Sorry.

What I meant to say is that Mustang and Challenger sales would benefit if a Camaro would cease to exist and not Cadillac performance vehicles. Different market with different buyers.  Some might go to Cadillac, just as some might even go to Toyota with their Supra, but MOST would go to Challenger and Mustang. 

And about Camaro EV and Mustang EV...

According to Autoline Detroit, the Mustang coupe V8 and all, is going ALL EV in 2029. No ICE engines in the Mustang. Just electric motors with battery.  There hasnt been a hint from gm  what they are planning to do with Camaro, but seeing as gm has been upfront and concrete about going all in with EVs and stopping production of ICE by 2035, then Id say if they choose to continue on with the Camaro name plate, then as with Ford with the Mustang, a next generation Camaro will be battery electric.  Tim Kuniskis also said that the Challenger will be an electric muscle car. 

 

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a35381043/dodge-ceo-says-hellcat-v-8-dying/
 

Quote

 

"The days of an iron-block supercharged 6.2-liter V-8 are numbered," Kuniskis said. "They're absolutely numbered because of all the compliance costs. But the performance that those vehicles generate is not numbered."

Of course, his comments don't rule out continuing to sell V-8s like the 5.7-liter naturally aspirated engine that serves as the volume motor for the Ram 1500. A V-8 Wrangler is coming, too, without a supercharger. Hellcat V-8s, though, are an endangered species. The good news is, according to Kuniskis, the plan is to keep offering similar levels of performance using powerful electric motors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

12 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I should have been more precise with my response to you. Sorry.

What I meant to say is that Mustang and Challenger sales would benefit if a Camaro would cease to exist and not Cadillac performance vehicles. Different market with different buyers.  Some might go to Cadillac, just as some might even go to Toyota with their Supra, but MOST would go to Challenger and Mustang. 

 

True, I misunderstood and thought you meant Camaro wouldn't go away.  Mustang would gain the most if/when the Camaro dies.  I would assume the Challenger has an older buyer base than either, and the Charger/Challenger have a lot of fleet reliance.  The problem with all these sports coupes is the market keeps shrinking, the sports sedan is like the new sports coupe.  And the crossover replaced what was the "sports sedan" of 20 years ago.

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

GM performance fans will buy these up

V-Series cars have a MUCH wider appeal than 'GM fans'.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

They could do a Georgio platform car

Platforms have no effect on emissions.

33 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I would assume the Challenger has an older buyer base than either

Challenger (the model) has a lower average buyer age than Tesla (as a brand). With everyone vainly gunning for the youth buyer, it'd be wise to keep it going... forever.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Just fantastic.  Are these the last great Cadillacs?  Feeling wistful.

Yes, the LAST Great ICE Cadillacs. The Future will be bright as we get even faster EVs for everyone to enjoy!

[ocnblu]

1 minute ago, David said:

Yes, the LAST Great ICE Cadillacs. The Future will be bright as we get even faster EVs for everyone to enjoy!

goof, be serious for once

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Mustang will always be around, but I suspect the Mach-E will be outselling the traditional gas coupe within a few years.

I think as production increases to supply the Dealers with Mach-E to buy, people will find out just how awesome the Mach-E really is. In this comparison of the 2021 Mach-E AWD it was only .1, yup POINT ONE second slower than the High Performance 2.3L Mustang and the Mach-E weighs 1,215 pounds more than the Turbo 4 Mustang.

Quarter Mile, Turbo 4 was 13 seconds at 100 mph

Quarter Mile, Mach-E was 13.8 @ 101 mph

Ford has NOT yet allowed anyone to have a Mach-E GT, but states it will blast 0 to 60 in 3.5 seconds equaling the 760HP Shelby GT500.

Other interesting numbers is that the Mach-E on the Skidpad testing has a .85 g of lateral grip compared to the Durango SRT Hellcat having a .87G

Clearly this $43,995 Mach-E is here to play and play seriously. 

With less maintenance compared to equal ICE CUVs, I think people will happily embrace the change to EVs.

2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E Only Slightly Slower Than Mustang 2.3L (caranddriver.com)

[balthazar]

Googlin' around, I see one source claims a Tesla Model 3 average insurance cost is 50% higher than the national average insurance bill.

I've been wondering (as I am here) if that's due to it being a circa 3 sec car to 60. If so, I think it's only fair if advertising nebulous claims of 'gas not bought monies saved' they also include 'grotesque insurance surcharges likely', to balance it out and be truthful. 

Is a (slo-ooooooooooooow) changeover to BE vehicles going to likewise see a sharp spike in insurance costs? In addition to the MSRP surcharge? 

Again I remind us here of the general conversation a few years back when autonomous driving cars were the flavor of the month; if vast swaths of the (aging) populous have poor driving skills and are better off not driving at all, is there any sense in putting all those bad drivers in 3 sec cars?? Is anyone worried?

Edited February 3, 2021 by balthazar

[smk4565]

32 minutes ago, balthazar said:

V-Series cars have a MUCH wider appeal than 'GM fans'.

Platforms have no effect on emissions.

Challenger (the model) has a lower average buyer age than Tesla (as a brand). With everyone vainly gunning for the youth buyer, it'd be wise to keep it going... forever.

Georgio can be the platform, it would weigh less and they’d use a turbo 4, maybe a mild hybrid in the 2020s as the bridge to EV.  And a turbo V6 would replace the Hemi, so they’d gain on emissions there.

As for V-series, I don’t know who they are attracting in, the German cars are faster and Acura/Lexus people don’t care about performance.

[smk4565]

25 minutes ago, David said:

 

Clearly this $43,995 Mach-E is here to play and play seriously. 

With less maintenance compared to equal ICE CUVs, I think people will happily embrace the change to EVs.

2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E Only Slightly Slower Than Mustang 2.3L (caranddriver.com)

The Mach-E is about the size of an Escape, and the Escape and gas Mustang start in the mid $20s.  You can easily argue the Mach-E is better than an Escape or Mustang but is it $15-20k better?   EV’s still need to get cheaper, and that will happen I am sure, but for short term it is still a big ask to get volume on something like a Mach-E.

 

Also I was just reading an article on how investors are seeing revenue for ICE car sales as worthless in their valuation of a company and may soon even see ICE as a negative.  Timing the big EV change over right will be what determines winners and losers.

Edited February 3, 2021 by smk4565

[balthazar]

Within a single model BE vehicle, none have gotten cheaper yet.
Used to be able to get a Model S for $57K.

[ocnblu]

Excuse me, must we insinuate every good thread in C&G now with EV garbage?  I thought this was a thread about Cadillac *checks again*

[oldshurst442]

The Mach E in size  is in between this generation Escape and the first generation Edge.  

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Acura/Lexus people don’t care about performance.

I dunno about Lexus folk, but Acura folk actually DO care about performance.  Acura and Honda folk that actually buy cars not CUVs and SUVs from Honda and Acura are one of the most performance oriented buyers in the car world.  Acura lost market share BECAUSE Acura STOPPED offering performance oriented cars.  I dunno if you noticed or not, but Acura and Honda CARS have been re-invented in their latest generations to offer MORE fun to drive qualities for their owners.  Back to fun driving is the motto...   No...not with torque monster RWD muscle cars, but with what Honda does best: great powertrains and nimble handling. 

Honda/Acura seems to me that going electric will only ENHANCE these qualities for Honda/Acura sporty cars and their owners.  Only drawback to BEVs for Honda/Acura is that BEVs are quite hefty negating nimbleness. However, low center of gravity due to the battery pack being THE floor pan, at least lessens the heft problem...

Edited February 3, 2021 by oldshurst442

[William Maley]

10 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Excuse me, must we insinuate every good thread in C&G now with EV garbage?  I thought this was a thread about Cadillac *checks again*

Sir, this is an Arby's.

Also, would you calm down with the

*checks notes*

Electric Garbage.

[surreal1272]

14 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Just fantastic.  Are these the last great Cadillacs?  Feeling wistful.

*Checks Notes* You posted the above first, which implies the existence of EVs...

10 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Excuse me, must we insinuate every good thread in C&G now with EV garbage?  I thought this was a thread about Cadillac *checks again*

...so the above statement here is BS.

 

*Checks again* to see if you are moderator or Admin of this site and finds nothing. I believe William summed up the situation perfectly.

 

 

11 hours ago, balthazar said:

Within a single model BE vehicle, none have gotten cheaper yet.
Used to be able to get a Model S for $57K.

Used to be able to get an HD pickup for less than $30K, much less the $60-$90K they are now.

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A BMW 340i has the same 0-60 time as the CT4-V Blackwing, not even an M3, just a 340i.  And the Audi RS3 has a 3.5 second 0-60 time, faster than either Blackwing, M5 Competition does 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, etc.  AMG holds the Nurburgring record for 2 door car, 4 door car, and station wagon, and 3rd place for SUV, so I think AMG can handle a Blackwing on a track.  

But that being said, if you liked the ATS-V and CTS-V then I imagine you would like these because it is basically the same powertrains and performance.  Or if you wanted a 4-door Camaro ZL1 with a better interior, the CT5 Blackwing fits the bill.  GM performance fans will buy these up, and I suspect as the Camaro sort of fades away (declining coupe sales), these 2 will pick up some of that market. 

I think the pricing is pretty spot on for the CT4-V, the CLA45, RS3 and 340i are all 56k, with equal options they all probably line up in price pretty close and you have some good comparisons in there.  The CT5 Blackwing I think they should have priced at $79,900 to match the Tesla Model S, but they sold out their first run so I guess no need to.  And given the lower volumes on these, they can probably get people to pay that ask price and not run the risk of getting too big a supply on dealer lots.

The CT5-Blackwing competes with the E63 AMG and will kill it, mostly due to it being 500lbs. Lighter.

 

And why in the hell does a short run ICE Cadillac need to priced the same as a cheaper built Tesla? Do you have stock in them right now?

[surreal1272]

And oh, if they would just give this version one last farewell....

 

[surreal1272]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A BMW 340i has the same 0-60 time as the CT4-V Blackwing, not even an M3, just a 340i.  And the Audi RS3 has a 3.5 second 0-60 time, faster than either Blackwing, M5 Competition does 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, etc.  AMG holds the Nurburgring record for 2 door car, 4 door car, and station wagon, and 3rd place for SUV, so I think AMG can handle a Blackwing on a track.  

But that being said, if you liked the ATS-V and CTS-V then I imagine you would like these because it is basically the same powertrains and performance.  Or if you wanted a 4-door Camaro ZL1 with a better interior, the CT5 Blackwing fits the bill.  GM performance fans will buy these up, and I suspect as the Camaro sort of fades away (declining coupe sales), these 2 will pick up some of that market. 

I think the pricing is pretty spot on for the CT4-V, the CLA45, RS3 and 340i are all 56k, with equal options they all probably line up in price pretty close and you have some good comparisons in there.  The CT5 Blackwing I think they should have priced at $79,900 to match the Tesla Model S, but they sold out their first run so I guess no need to.  And given the lower volumes on these, they can probably get people to pay that ask price and not run the risk of getting too big a supply on dealer lots.

Cite your M5 time because C&D has it at 3.2 seconds for a car that STARTS at $110K. The BMW M3 has a manufacturers time of 3.8 seconds so I’m having a hard time believing that the lesser 340i does better. Furthermore, that same M3 starts $11K higher than the CT4 Blackwing. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Used to be able to get an HD pickup for less than $30K, much less the $60-$90K they are now.

Yes, true... but no one ever said “the price of an HD pickup is going to go way down in the next few years”.

[ccap41]

Oh look, another thread with ocn and surreal going at it. 

[surreal1272]

16 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Oh look, another thread with ocn and surreal going at it. 

Oh look, so what? 

43 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Yes, true... but no one ever said “the price of an HD pickup is going to go way down in the next few years”.

Are you sure about that? Fact of the matter is that the tech behind EVs have dropped in price but that doesn't mean that the end product will necessarily be that way (with exceptions of course). Many ICEs have been around for decades (with little in the way of meaningful advancements) and most have dropped in price yet the cars and trucks that house them have not. 

[surreal1272]

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

Googlin' around, I see one source claims a Tesla Model 3 average insurance cost is 50% higher than the national average insurance bill.

I've been wondering (as I am here) if that's due to it being a circa 3 sec car to 60. If so, I think it's only fair if advertising nebulous claims of 'gas not bought monies saved' they also include 'grotesque insurance surcharges likely', to balance it out and be truthful. 

Is a (slo-ooooooooooooow) changeover to BE vehicles going to likewise see a sharp spike in insurance costs? In addition to the MSRP surcharge? 

Again I remind us here of the general conversation a few years back when autonomous driving cars were the flavor of the month; if vast swaths of the (aging) populous have poor driving skills and are better off not driving at all, is there any sense in putting all those bad drivers in 3 sec cars?? Is anyone worried?

Insurance bumps are most likely due to cost of parts replacements (body, powertrain, and frame).

Edited February 3, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

44 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Oh look, so what? 

You two are annoying when "talking" to each other. 

There's no filter to exclude you two's garbage. 

[USA-1]

Nice detailed write-up. Thanks, W. Maley.

Pretty sweet cars. I watched the Live Reveal that evening thinking it might be like the C8 Corvette was. Nope, wasn't a live Reveal just a prerecorded video of the engineers and designers chatting about the cars. 

I looked into reserving a CT5 Blackwing right after the video and reservations were already full, only 250 but still pretty crazy. They would be a great investment as you could flip one for a considerable profit. I'm sure dealers were sitting on the Reserve Now button once they officially launched as well.

Anticipation and hype was there, still had a countdown clock with pic of both cars running on the track. 

 

Just that legendary exhaust rumble at idle and raspy scream near redline of these awesome LS/LT engines in these V Series cars along with the Gen. 2 and 3 CTS-V's is something that is and always will be mentioned in the automotive world.  Even the 3.6TT note in the ATS-V and this CT4 Blackwing sound pretty mean when wound up. 

 

 

  

Edited February 3, 2021 by Drew Dowdell
Removed bigoted comments

[Carguy]

Awesome machines and a far to soon end of an ICE era!

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

 

The CT5-Blackwing competes with the E63 AMG and will kill it, mostly due to it being 500lbs. Lighter.

 

And why in the hell does a short run ICE Cadillac need to priced the same as a cheaper built Tesla? Do you have stock in them right now?

The CT5 is more of a C-class competitor, a base CT5 is $20k cheaper than an E-class so I wouldn’t really say those are rivals.   A Camry or Accord have dimensions like an E-class, but aren’t competitors.  
 

The CT5 Blackwing has a 3.7 0-60, in a straight line even an Audi RS3 will beat it, let alone an M5 Competition that does it in 2.6 seconds.  Maybe on a track the Blackwing can make up time in corners.  Cadillac should get that car on the Nurburgring and see if they beat the Germans.  
 

As far as the Model S goes, it starts at $79k and is more powerful and faster than a CT5 Blackwing and they are similar size.  That’s why I thought Cadillac should price it like a Model S, but since Cadillac is low volume on this the price doesn’t really matter if they are only looking to sell 250-500 a year for the next 3-4 years.

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Cite your M5 time because C&D has it at 3.2 seconds for a car that STARTS at $110K. The BMW M3 has a manufacturers time of 3.8 seconds so I’m having a hard time believing that the lesser 340i does better. Furthermore, that same M3 starts $11K higher than the CT4 Blackwing. 

Car and Driver clocked a 2019 340i at 3.8 seconds as the Toyota Supra at 3.7 seconds with the same engine/transmission.  C/D also had an M5 Competition at 2.6 and there is an M5 Comp CS that cuts 230 lbs more weight.  I don’t think CT5 competes with M5 or E63 because CT5 is a C-class competitor.
 

CT4 Blackwing compares more to the CLA45 and RS3, you throw BMW M2 in there but it is 2 door,  they are all pretty close performance wise depending on which metric you want to rank.

[Drew Dowdell]

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Car and Driver clocked a 2019 340i at 3.8 seconds as the Toyota Supra at 3.7 seconds with the same engine/transmission.  C/D also had an M5 Competition at 2.6 and there is an M5 Comp CS that cuts 230 lbs more weight.  I don’t think CT5 competes with M5 or E63 because CT5 is a C-class competitor.
 

CT4 Blackwing compares more to the CLA45 and RS3, you throw BMW M2 in there but it is 2 door,  they are all pretty close performance wise depending on which metric you want to rank.

C/D clearly made a clerical error if they think a vehicle with an extra 1,000 is going 0.1 seconds slower using the same engine/transmission.

You are right though about the size.  The CT5 is slightly larger than a 3-series, but noticeably smaller than a 5-series... they don't really line up against each other well. The CT4 is meant to compete with the A-Class and the Alpha chassis can easily outhandle the MB and BMW Front Drivers.  The ATS-V blew away the CLA45 on the track easily. 

[surreal1272]

59 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The CT5 is more of a C-class competitor, a base CT5 is $20k cheaper than an E-class so I wouldn’t really say those are rivals.   A Camry or Accord have dimensions like an E-class, but aren’t competitors.  
 

The CT5 Blackwing has a 3.7 0-60, in a straight line even an Audi RS3 will beat it, let alone an M5 Competition that does it in 2.6 seconds.  Maybe on a track the Blackwing can make up time in corners.  Cadillac should get that car on the Nurburgring and see if they beat the Germans.  
 

As far as the Model S goes, it starts at $79k and is more powerful and faster than a CT5 Blackwing and they are similar size.  That’s why I thought Cadillac should price it like a Model S, but since Cadillac is low volume on this the price doesn’t really matter if they are only looking to sell 250-500 a year for the next 3-4 years.

Ignore the price because the Germans will always be higher (hell, a 3 series starts at higher price than the base CT-5). Like the 2nd gen CTS, it tweener size is much closer to the 5-Series and E-Class than the 3-Series and C Class. And again, I am talking manufacturers claims which has the M5 Comp at 3.2 sec. C&D had the fastest tested time at 2.8 seconds so there is no reason to think that the Caddys can't beat their est. times. Again, all that bar moving while ignoring things like the CT-5 being over $20K cheaper than the M5 Comp.

 

Per another article,

despite the fact that the wheelbase measurements of the CT5 and the 5 Series are within 1.1 inches of each other (116 inches to 117.1). So, the CT5 is not-quite-a-5er, not-quite-a-3er, making the CT5-V Blackwing closest to, well, the more powerful uber-fast midsizers than less powerful, smaller stuff such as the BMW M3 sedan or Mercedes-AMG C63. 

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You two are annoying when "talking" to each other. 

There's no filter to exclude you two's garbage. 

It's called "ignore user". Try it or quit your bitchin'. No offense.

Edited February 3, 2021 by surreal1272

[Drew Dowdell]

19 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Ignore the price because the Germans will always be higher (hell, a 3 series starts at higher price than the base CT-5). Like the 2nd gen CTS, it tweener size is much closer to the 5-Series and E-Class than the 3-Series and C Class. And again, I am talking manufacturers claims which has the M5 Comp at 3.2 sec. C&D had the fastest tested time at 2.8 seconds so there is no reason to think that the Caddys can't beat their est. times. Again, all that bar moving while ignoring things like the CT-5 being over $20K cheaper than the M5 Comp.

 

Per another article,

despite the fact that the wheelbase measurements of the CT5 and the 5 Series are within 1.1 inches of each other (116 inches to 117.1). So, the CT5 is not-quite-a-5er, not-quite-a-3er, making the CT5-V Blackwing closest to, well, the more powerful uber-fast midsizers than less powerful, smaller stuff such as the BMW M3 sedan or Mercedes-AMG C63. 

It's called "ignore user". Try it or quit your bitchin'. No offense.

Outside length doesn't tell the whole story. The CT5 doesn't feel as roomy inside as a 5-series and that's intentional.  Cadillac is positioning the CT5 more against the 3-series / C-Class and it feels like it inside. It's base price is $36,895 while the base 3-series is $41,250, so think of the CT5 as a much roomier 3-series competitor which can get a V8 while the 3-series can't. 

The CT4 competes with the A-Class/CLA and 2-series Grand Coupe (stupid stoooopid name) . (Cadillac - $32,995 / A-Class - $37,435 / 2-Series GC - $35,700) and is easily the roomiest and most powerful of all of them. 

Sadly, Cadillac isn't making a sedan in the 5-series size any longer. They should have kept the CT6 in production.

[surreal1272]

30 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Outside length doesn't tell the whole story. The CT5 doesn't feel as roomy inside as a 5-series and that's intentional.  Cadillac is positioning the CT5 more against the 3-series / C-Class and it feels like it inside. It's base price is $36,895 while the base 3-series is $41,250, so think of the CT5 as a much roomier 3-series competitor which can get a V8 while the 3-series can't. 

The CT4 competes with the A-Class/CLA and 2-series Grand Coupe (stupid stoooopid name) . (Cadillac - $32,995 / A-Class - $37,435 / 2-Series GC - $35,700) and is easily the roomiest and most powerful of all of them. 

Sadly, Cadillac isn't making a sedan in the 5-series size any longer. They should have kept the CT6 in production.

Fair points but I still feel as though the 5 Series will be its more consistent competitor but this “tweener” size does put it in a bit of a comparison conundrum. 

[Drew Dowdell]

2 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Fair points but I still feel as though the 5 Series will be its more consistent competitor but this “tweener” size does put it in a bit of a comparison conundrum. 

As @balthazar likes to point out, people don't go shopping with their tape measures. All it has to do is meet or beat the expected roominess for the price.  People pick a price range first and then see what vehicles they can find in that range, they don't pick a wheelbase and work backwards. 

There's not going to be much, if any, 5-series/CT5 cross shopping with a $20k spread in base price.

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

It's called "ignore user". Try it or quit your bitchin'. No offense.

There's no function to just ignore you two's cat fights. 

You're both enjoyable to communicate with. It's just not enjoyable to read past the pissing match.

 

Regardless of that ^, I completely agree that these are "tweener" cars that are targeted at giving the consumer more for the money and we certainly win when you look at the CT5 Blackwing vs the M5/E63's prices. Literally the only thing missing is AWD. 

[USA-1]

16 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They should have kept the CT6 in production.

Agree, 100%. Having driven a CT6 3.0TT V6 and the CT6-V Blackwing 4.2TT V8 I know firsthand just how bada$$ of a car they are. They drove like a much smaller car because of the lower weight chassis and components and the excellent latest gen. GM Magnaride suspension. I was blown away that GM top brass never gave it a fighting chance. From what I hear, they were selling quite well for that class/segment too. I'm told by a Cadillac dealer buddy of mine that CT6 Blackwing's were sold while still in transit if not a special order, and standard CT6's didn't sit on the lot for long unless it was the underwhelming 2.0T powertrain, which got axed here in the U.S. in 2019. That I-4 was really only made an option for the Chinese market with the extra tax levied on engines larger than 2.0L over there.   

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

38 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They should have kept the CT6 in production.

Agree, 100%.

Especially after they already had all of the engineering and tooling paid for. They should have kept it around just because they already paid to make the dang thing, get something out of your investment. 

[USA-1]

17 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There's not going to be much, if any, 5-series/CT5 cross shopping with a $20k spread in base price.

There will be if it's the CT5-V Blackwing 668hp to the top M5 CS's 627hp and the CT5 is a much lighter car that's not really all that much smaller. I fit fine in the CT5 at 6'3" so it shouldn't be problem unless they are just brand loyal to Bimmer. These CT5 Blackwing's are going to be beasts on and off the track.

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m5

12 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Especially after they already had all of the engineering and tooling paid for. They should have kept it around just because they already paid to make the dang thing, get something out of your investment. 

Exactly! Top Bean Counters be damned!

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by USA-1

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

C/D clearly made a clerical error if they think a vehicle with an extra 1,000 is going 0.1 seconds slower using the same engine/transmission.

You are right though about the size.  The CT5 is slightly larger than a 3-series, but noticeably smaller than a 5-series... they don't really line up against each other well. The CT4 is meant to compete with the A-Class and the Alpha chassis can easily outhandle the MB and BMW Front Drivers.  The ATS-V blew away the CLA45 on the track easily. 

The 3-series is all wheel drive, the Supra is not, so that is probably the difference, better grip off the line.

CT5 dimensions: 194″ L x 74″ W x 57″ H

BMW 5-Series: 196″ L x 74″ W x 58″ H

Mercedes E450: 194″ L x 73″ W x 58″ H (The E63 is 196" L, 75" W due to wings and wider fenders)

Cadillac's strategy is 5-series size at less than 3-series prices, which is probably the right strategy.  CT4 is slightly bigger than an A3/2-series/A-class but price is pretty similar throughout the line, CT4-Blackwing is priced similar to CLA45 or RS3 and CT4-V pretty close to CLA35.  

The ATS-V did Car & Driver's lightning lap at VIR in 2:59.7 and the 2021 CLA45 in 2:58.2.  CT4 Blackwing might be 2 seconds a lap better than ATS-V, but the CT4 Blackwing is heavier and has the same engine.  The CT4-V ran a 3:06.2 and CT5-V a 3:04.1 for comparison.  And the CLA45 beat the Supra 3.0 and the 575 hp Jaguar F-Type R, so I wouldn't could it out against a CT4 Blackwing, it would be close.

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Fair points but I still feel as though the 5 Series will be its more consistent competitor but this “tweener” size does put it in a bit of a comparison conundrum. 

The Sonata, CT5 and E-class all have the same dimensions.  Pretty big price spread.  

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, USA-1 said:

There will be if it's the CT5-V Blackwing 668hp to the top M5 CS's 627hp and the CT5 is a much lighter car that's not really all that much smaller. I fit fine in the CT5 at 6'3" so it shouldn't be problem unless they are just brand loyal to Bimmer. These CT5 Blackwing's are going to be beasts on and off the track.

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m5

Exactly! Top Bean Counters be damned!

 

The M5 has AWD and can actually use that 627 hp plus that car is under rated, Car and Driver dyne tested it  and got 617 horsepower and 606 lb-ft of torque at the wheels, so that engine probably makes 700 hp at the crank.  The M5 is a full second quicker 0-60, and a CT5-V is 200 lbs less than an M5, that V8 Blackwing will probably make that weight pretty close.  There is also the M5 CS that drops like 200 lbs of weight.  

[USA-1]

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The M5 has AWD and can actually use that 627 hp plus that car is under rated, Car and Driver dyne tested it  and got 617 horsepower and 606 lb-ft of torque at the wheels, so that engine probably makes 700 hp at the crank.  The M5 is a full second quicker 0-60, and a CT5-V is 200 lbs less than an M5, that V8 Blackwing will probably make that weight pretty close.  There is also the M5 CS that drops like 200 lbs of weight.  

So Bimmer has to lie about their engines' output to win? Got it. No way it's 700hp at the crank. The CS M5 is $143k as well, just means it's a limited run model.

GM's eDiff and Torque Management System with latest gen. StabiliTrak is pretty awesome and being a sedan it puts the weight over the back axles better unlike a lighter coupe setup like the 755hp C7 ZR1. AWD also adds a lot more weight, the main reason that M5 is a hog at 4,350 lbs curb weight and 5,380 lbs. gross, that's insanely heavy for a sedan in that class. And it only loses 150 lbs in the CS, that isn't going to make much difference with performance. 2019 CTS-V in the same class as the M5 was only just over 4k lbs.

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m5

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/2021-bmw-m5-cs-to-have-626-hp-weigh-154-pounds-less/ar-BB1ck9Rz

 

[smk4565]

25 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

So Bimmer has to lie about their engines' output to win? Got it. No way it's 700hp at the crank. The CS M5 is $143k as well, just means it's a limited run model.

GM's eDiff and Torque Management System with latest gen. StabiliTrak is pretty awesome and being a sedan it puts the weight over the back axles better unlike a lighter coupe setup like the 755hp C7 ZR1. AWD also adds a lot more weight, the main reason that M5 is a hog at 4,350 lbs curb weight and 5,380 lbs. gross, that's insanely heavy for a sedan in that class. And it only loses 150 lbs in the CS, that isn't going to make much difference with performance. 2019 CTS-V in the same class as the M5 was only just over 4k lbs.

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m5

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/2021-bmw-m5-cs-to-have-626-hp-weigh-154-pounds-less/ar-BB1ck9Rz

 

The V6 CT5-V is 4144 lbs but that has AWD, maybe the Blackwing is about the same.  The regular M5 is still lighter than an RS6 or E63 or Panamera,  but all those cars are still fast, depends on how good grip, suspension, brakes and aero are when it comes to the track times.  I don't t think the weight matters that much, although less weight is one less obstacle to overcome.

Pretty much every BMW engine is under rated, that is why you have to compare to their performance numbers, not their horsepower number.  

[USA-1]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

  I don't t think the weight matters that much, although less weight is one less obstacle to overcome.

Pretty much every BMW engine is under rated, that is why you have to compare to their performance numbers, not their horsepower number.  

Weight absolutely matters!

 

I know, Bimmer has been playing that game for years, I was being facetious. It is annoying though, just give us the REAL numbers play the game you're in Bimmer!

[smk4565]

23 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

Weight absolutely matters!

 

Since the CT5 is really a C-class competitor, the C63 is 3,900 lbs, thus the CT5-V doesn't have a weight advantage.

 I don't see CT5 as an E6/M5 competitor any more than I see a Hellcat Charger as an E63/M5 competitor, because the E63/M5 are like $30k more and far more luxurious than those other cars.

 

[balthazar]

C63 is 4000 lbs (3987) - way to round down.

100 lbs is only worth a tenth of a second in the quarter mile (in the 11-12 sec neighborhood). It'd be unmeasurable on a road course.

[USA-1]

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Since the CT5 is really a C-class competitor, the C63 is 3,900 lbs, thus the CT5-V doesn't have a weight advantage.

 I don't see CT5 as an E6/M5 competitor any more than I see a Hellcat Charger as an E63/M5 competitor, because the E63/M5 are like $30k more and far more luxurious than those other cars.

 

After you JUST mentioned the sizes of the CT5, 5 Series and E Class are near identical, but yeah they aren't competitive because the price point, that's ludicrous.

Yeah, because the antiquated chassis and cheap interior in the Dodge Charger is the same build quality as a Cadillac CT5. LMFAO!! 

 

Just 2 hours ago you stated ??

 

smk4565

Posted 2 hours ago

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

C/D clearly made a clerical error if they think a vehicle with an extra 1,000 is going 0.1 seconds slower using the same engine/transmission.

You are right though about the size.  The CT5 is slightly larger than a 3-series, but noticeably smaller than a 5-series... they don't really line up against each other well. The CT4 is meant to compete with the A-Class and the Alpha chassis can easily outhandle the MB and BMW Front Drivers.  The ATS-V blew away the CLA45 on the track easily. 

The 3-series is all wheel drive, the Supra is not, so that is probably the difference, better grip off the line.

CT5 dimensions: 194″ L x 74″ W x 57″ H

BMW 5-Series: 196″ L x 74″ W x 58″ H

Mercedes E450: 194″ L x 73″ W x 58″ H (The E63 is 196" L, 75" W due to wings and wider fenders)

Cadillac's strategy is 5-series size at less than 3-series prices, which is probably the right strategy.  CT4 is slightly bigger than an A3/2-series/A-class but price is pretty similar throughout the line, CT4-Blackwing is priced similar to CLA45 or RS3 and CT4-V pretty close to CLA35.  

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by USA-1

[smk4565]

44 minutes ago, balthazar said:

C63 is 4000 lbs (3987) - way to round down.

100 lbs is only worth a tenth of a second in the quarter mile (in the 11-12 sec neighborhood). It'd be unmeasurable on a road course.

Mercedes website said 3,900 for C63 S so that is where I got that.