generation e Generation E - Are you willing to join the future?

[G. David Felt]

Love this new marketing from GM!

Are you willing to join the future? Are you willing to join Generation E?

[balthazar]

I’ll pass.

[Robert Hall]

 

Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades

[balthazar]

They all looked like they were 20-30 yrs old. People that age very seldom buy new vehicles. 

Average Tesla buyer age? 54.

[daves87rs]

As long as we can still have both, yes.

Of course I’ll buy EV, but I’m not giving up ICE either....

[balthazar]

Just a lot more noticeable when branded "Generation E".

[ocnblu]

Wow, I see dissent is dead and buried at C&G. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Wow, I see dissent is dead and buried at C&G. 

Notice how Balth’s dissent is still up and how it differs in tone and lack of bigotry?

Do better and maybe your posts will stay up. I do not allow transphobic comments on this site.

[oldshurst442]

I cant believe Im actually gonna post a Debbie Gibson song on the internets. But..somehow, the song seems appropriate in this thread, even though I never really liked this song nor Debbie Gibson

Quote

Zappin' it to you, the pressure's everywhere
Goin' right through you
The fever's in the air, oh, yeah, it's there
Don't underestimate the power of a lifetime ahead
Electric youth!
The power you see the energy comin' up, coming on strong
The future only belongs to the future itself
And the future is electric youth
It's true you can't fight it, live by it
The next generation, it's electric

 

 

Im fully 100% on board with Gen E!   

 

 

 

[balthazar]

I'm pretty much only automotively bigoted.

[ocnblu]

OK.  The marketing video posted is 100% gm garbage, but I will say this, it sticks with a tradition of ineffective, tap-dancing General Motors marketing failures that have led to the slow contraction to where the company is today.  I have a feeling this push will only accelerate a further dissipation of their market presence in their home market.  The video posted only serves to further distance a lot of long-time customers from this once-omnipotent company.  It SHEDS current customers, while doing zero to GAIN new ones who have money to spend.

When the engine rev has ceased, so will the company. 

A car is not a cell phone, and for gm to actually equate their cars to cell phones like it's somehow a good thing... this is completely unacceptable.

[surreal1272]

14 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Wow, I see dissent is dead and buried at C&G. 

For the record, I had two posts deleted in the last two days yet I’m not on here claiming some kind of pseudo censorship. I know my posts went too far both times and I’m fine with that. Interesting that you’re the only one here complaining.

4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

OK.  The marketing video posted is 100% gm garbage, but I will say this, it sticks with a tradition of ineffective, tap-dancing General Motors marketing failures that have led to the slow contraction to where the company is today.  I have a feeling this push will only accelerate a further dissipation of their market presence in their home market.  The video posted only serves to further distance a lot of long-time customers from this once-omnipotent company.  It SHEDS current customers, while doing zero to GAIN new ones who have money to spend.

When the engine rev has ceased, so will the company. 

A car is not a cell phone, and for gm to actually equate their cars to cell phones like it's somehow a good thing... this is completely unacceptable.

Cars were turned into rolling appliances decades ago so your “cell phone” reference is actually how the new generation of future buyer will see it, thus leading to sales for that market (price willing of course) and that market is getting larger every year, whether you want to admit it or not. Your dinosaur mentality regarding EVs, or really anything different from your “norm” apparently, is outdated and becoming less and less relevant with every passing day. Don’t believe me? Take a look at the tech in your home and current ride and think about where they were both at thirty years ago. It’s been changing and will continue to change and so will cars. 

[Drew Dowdell]

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

OK.  The marketing video posted is 100% gm garbage, but I will say this, it sticks with a tradition of ineffective, tap-dancing General Motors marketing failures that have led to the slow contraction to where the company is today.  I have a feeling this push will only accelerate a further dissipation of their market presence in their home market.  The video posted only serves to further distance a lot of long-time customers from this once-omnipotent company.  It SHEDS current customers, while doing zero to GAIN new ones who have money to spend.

When the engine rev has ceased, so will the company. 

A car is not a cell phone, and for gm to actually equate their cars to cell phones like it's somehow a good thing... this is completely unacceptable.

With few exceptions, the majority of cars on the road have no excitement anymore.  You think 350k Camry and another 400k RAV4 buyers a year care about their car making "vroom-vroom" noises from that oh so meaty 2.5 liter 4-cylinder? I went with my best friend to test drive some cars.... we looked at a 2-door Jeep Wrangler 2.0T, a Bronco Sport 2.0T, a 4-Runner (didn't like, didn't drive), and a Ford Flex. He hated the sound and feel of the 2.0Ts and really liked the V6 in the Flex.... why? because the Flex was quiet and had a lot of torque (not how he described the torque, but I knew what he meant). 

And that's what most people actually want... something not noisy, but still has instant low end torque. 

Price aside, I could get Albert a Model S Plaid+, plug it in for him for a few hours every Sunday, and functionally it would be no different than now when I take his 300C to Costco every Sunday to put gas in it. He'd never notice the difference.

There are those of us who like the sound of an engine revving, but we are in an extreme minority.   As soon as EVs come down in price relative to income and charging stations are wide spread, ICEs will become a niche vehicle. People just don't care. If they did, the Camry/Accord 4-cylinders would not have been best sellers for so many years. The Equinox/Terrain combo is something like the 6th or 7th best selling vehicle in the US right now and I'll tell you no one wants to hear that awful 1.5T doing its job. GM did a pretty good job at silencing it. 

You may not like it, but these are the factors that GM is working with. 

[ocnblu]

32 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'll tell you no one wants to hear that awful 1.5T doing its job

My brother just traded his 85k-mile 2017 Tahoe for a 2021 Equinox LT Convenience with blackout package, in silver no less.  I warned him about the 1.5t's early reliability problems, but he went for it anyway.  I told him to wait for the 2022 and get the 2.0t with the updated look.  He and his wife test drove '20 1.5 and 2.0t versions... he said she COULD NOT FEEL THE DIFFERENCE... that's an EIGHTY-TWO HORSEPOWER VARIANCE!  *facepalm*

Anyway, thanks for the hate.  Personally, I hope the thing is trouble-free.  I know his wife never liked the Tahoe due to its imposing size.

Yes, it is an important aspect of ownership for me to run the engine up through the gears (why I factory ordered a FIAT-Jeep with stick, and bought a Fiesta and Cruze with sticks as well in an effort to extract a bit of fun).  I love listening to my 3.6L kick down to pass, and I love how it leaps off the line and GOES when I feel the urge and it is safe to do so.  SUE ME.

Edited January 31, 2021 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

Drew, friend should have tested a 3.6L Wrangler.

[ocnblu]

I understand the 1.5EB 3 in the Escape/Bronco Sport (and possibly the 2.0, IDK) have artificial (V8?) engine noise piped through the speakers to mask the fact that these aren't the good old days.

I'm on the verge of choosing a new vehicle (surreal:  too many skid marks/pearls of wisdom in my Colorado already!) and it kind of hurts, but it will not be a gm product.  I cannot give Mary money to spend on her hare-brained scheme.

Bronco Sport 1.5 Big Bend

2021 Escape SE with Sport trim pkg 1.5

2022 Rogue Sport if it is not electrified

2021 Rogue

2022 Tucson

2022 Kona

2022 Maverick

2021 Compass

2021 Renegade Trailhawk

If I could afford a V8 Durango, I would in a heartbeat.  If Dodge made a small truck, I would in a heartbeat.

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by ocnblu

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

My brother just traded his 85k-mile 2017 Tahoe for a 2021 Equinox LT Convenience with blackout package, in silver no less.  I warned him about the 1.5t's early reliability problems, but he went for it anyway.  I told him to wait for the 2022 and get the 2.0t with the updated look.  He and his wife test drove '20 1.5 and 2.0t versions... he said she COULD NOT FEEL THE DIFFERENCE... that's an EIGHTY-TWO HORSEPOWER VARIANCE!  *facepalm*

Anyway, thanks for the hate.  Personally, I hope the thing is trouble-free.  I know his wife never liked the Tahoe due to its imposing size.

Yes, it is an important aspect of ownership for me to run the engine up through the gears (why I factory ordered a FIAT-Jeep with stick, and bought a Fiesta and Cruze with sticks as well in an effort to extract a bit of fun).  I love listening to my 3.6L kick down to pass, and I love how it leaps off the line and GOES when I feel the urge and it is safe to do so.  SUE ME.

Your brother is exactly the type of consumer that, baring outside influences, would probably be suited to an EV just fine once cost and charging station network is addressed. I agree with you on the difference between the 1.5T and 2.0T, night and day... the 2.0T will easily break the front tires loose.

And it's not hate... it's facing the reality of where the market is today.  I knew when I bought my Avalanche I was most likely buying my last V8 ever, which is why I want to keep it forever.  I may get one more round of ICEs in my driveway, but eventually I'll convert Albert first and then me (though the Avalanche will stay).

I've never had the urge to shift my own gears, but I can and do appriciate the novelty of it. I just don't see it as a requirement for my day to day driving.  My commute to work is already infuriating enough, 45 minutes to go 12 miles, that shifting manually would add no joy to the drive.

The only thing I would point out as contrary to what you said is your insinuation that EVs can't leap off the line... they can and do.  Not every EV is a Nissan Leaf.

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Drew, friend should have tested a 3.6L Wrangler.

It wasn't the 2.0T that killed it for him, it was the bouncy ride.  I told him that the 3.6 would be more to his liking as he drives a V6 Liberty now, but the ride is what killed it.  He works from his car and also does trips home to NYC.  He needs something more comfortable for being in all day.  He's also very tall, so that's what killed the Bronco Sport for him.  His dream car is the Defender, but that isn't in his budget right now. He likes the boxy look of his Liberty and is attracted to the Flex... so who knows what he'll end up with.  I've found some MINT Ecoboost Flex Limiteds for him with like 15k miles for about $27k.

 

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

I understand the 1.5EB 3 in the Escape/Bronco Sport (and possibly the 2.0, IDK) have artificial (V8?) engine noise piped through the speakers to mask the fact that these aren't the good old days.

If they pipe sound in for the 2.0T, I certainly didn't hear it.  It was me who hated the sound. He hated the turbo-lag and lack of "Go!".  I didn't drive it, but I'm sure I'd have hated it to. I have no patience for turbo-lag any longer. 

[ocnblu]

27 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Your brother is exactly the type of consumer that, baring outside influences, would probably be suited to an EV just fine once cost and charging station network is addressed. I agree with you on the difference between the 1.5T and 2.0T, night and day... the 2.0T will easily break the front tires loose.

Pardon me, but you don't know my brother.  He hates EVs almost as much as I do.  One of the reasons he got it for his wife is so he can save money toward a half-ton Silverado Diesel.  Payments on the Equinox are almost half what they were on the Tahoe (and with such high mileage on the '17 Tahoe it was probably good to get out of it at this point, even though the second owner will probably go another 100k miles and still keep good resale.)

Edited January 31, 2021 by ocnblu

[smk4565]

On 1/29/2021 at 10:05 PM, balthazar said:

They all looked like they were 20-30 yrs old. People that age very seldom buy new vehicles. 

Average Tesla buyer age? 54.

Young people don't buy any new cars at all because even a Sentra or Corolla is like $25k.  Cars have go to a price point where basically retirees or empty nesters can afford new ones.

The other problem with their ad is they talk of the "electric future" when Tesla can sell you an EV today.

Edited January 31, 2021 by smk4565

[ocnblu]

17 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The only thing I would point out as contrary to what you said is your insinuation that EVs can't leap off the line... they can and do.

That was not actually anything to do with EV, that was me talking to myself in conflict over whether to keep my truck, which I am very well-positioned in moneywise, or get rid of it on principle and get back into a CUV of some sort, which means starting all over again.  Again.

[Drew Dowdell]

14 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Pardon me, but you don't know my brother.  He hates EVs almost as much as I do.

That wasn't what I was saying at all. You (and likely he) have preconceived notions regarding EVs and will dream up as many reasons for why they won't work for you as @Davidcan dream up reasons why he can't fit in the front seat of something.

What I was saying was that if you wrote down his primary wishes in a vehicle (Good git'up, good economy, good reliability), an EV Equinox would suit his needs just fine.  A 1.5T mid-range Equinox is just one QuietTuning away from being a sensory deprivation chamber as it is. Listening to that 1.5 making the sausage is not an experience improvement. 

[ocnblu]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The other problem with their ad is they talk of the "electric future" when Tesla can sell you an EV today.

Well yes but Tesla is high-priced junk... other problem I see is I see no truly small, affordable EV in the shadows behind the designer dude.  Only hope they have is if Bolt 2.0 is truly inexpensive, and not just lease rates or taxpayer-subsidized, I mean actually affordable and appealing to the smrtphone crowd.

[smk4565]

1 minute ago, ocnblu said:

Well yes but Tesla is high-priced junk... other problem I see is I see no truly small, affordable EV in the shadows behind the designer dude.  Only hope they have is if Bolt 2.0 is truly inexpensive, and not just lease rates or taxpayer-subsidized, I mean actually affordable and appealing to the smrtphone crowd.

The Bolt for what it is, should be about $25k and not $40k to compete with a gas car.  The Bolt is comparable to a Chevy Trailblazer.  So until they can suck a ton of cost out of the Bolt, gas cars aren't going anywhere.  

[ocnblu]

I prefer the mechanical aspect of automotive ownership, and all of the attendant, potential joys of it.  It is a pitiful excuse to have to listen to an off-putting, droning hum, or worse yet, fart sounds, a la Tesla's tongue-in-cheek announcement.

Edited January 31, 2021 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

11 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

preconceived notions regarding EVs

Well I mean... his mother-in-law has a Prius growing roots in her driveway because the hybrid battery died and she refuses to pay the price to replace it.  It will eventually be junked.  Which feels like what Barra is going for... after decades trying to shed the planned obsolescence rep, they're getting right back to it with their EV/smartphone correlation.  Do they think 20-somethings will pitch tents and line up around the block for the latest version?

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, ocnblu said:

Well I mean... his mother-in-law has a Prius growing roots in her driveway because the hybrid battery died and she refuses to pay the price to replace it.  It will eventually be junked.  Which feels like what Barra is going for... after decades trying to shed the planned obsolescence rep, they're getting right back to it with their EV/smartphone correlation.  Do they think 20-somethings will pitch tents and line up around the block for the latest version?

That's interesting, because when I visit NYC or LA, one of the things I loath most is getting in a beat to crap but still operating Prius V or Escape Hybrid. They take those things right up to their regulated mileage limit and it's not the batteries that kill them. My sister managed to kill her first year Escape Hybrid.... by running it out of oil.

Every car has the potential for drivetrain issues. I'm seeing lately how Hyundai/Kia and FCA are having problems with their 2.4s and having to do engine replacements due to catastrophic oil loss. (Yes I know that particular 2.4 is related between all three companies). 

As for her Pruis, you can get a reconditioned battery for like $900 plus install. If the car doesn't have over 200k miles, it would be worth it to pay for the replacement and then just sell it for a few grand. Even a 175k mile Pruis is worth about $5k and a 100k can fetch $12k - $15k.  So throwing away as much as $15k to save $1,500 doesn't seem to make much financial sense to me. 

And no car company is trying to shed the planned obsolescence. They've gone exactly the opposite direction even on regular ICE cars. Honda and Toyota are just as guilty of it as GM and Ford. Ford, when asked what the upgrade path was for owners with Sync who wanted to go to Sync3, the direct quote from the executive was "Buy a new car...".  But batteries aren't going to be what kills high mileage EVs, just like it isn't what kills high mileage Hybrids. When I needed to repair the cruise control for my CR-V, all I needed was the small plastic disk the cruise linkage would tug on, but the only way to get the replacement part from Honda was buying the entire throttle body for about $800.  I ended up fixing it with a Dremel and some zipties instead. 

[ocnblu]

IIRC, the car has 140k on it.  Of course she went to the Toyota dealer for a price, which will be high... because shiny new Prius on sales lot!

[Drew Dowdell]

42 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

IIRC, the car has 140k on it.  Of course she went to the Toyota dealer for a price, which will be high... because shiny new Prius on sales lot!

So she might be able to get $8k-$9k out of it depending on its condition. Personally, I'd spend the $1500 to get an aftermarket reman battery put in and then call Carvana to come pick it up.  They'll direct deposit the money straight into my checking account.   Put the VIN into Carvana's website and lie about the battery status to get an idea on what they'll pay. 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Bolt for what it is, should be about $25k and not $40k to compete with a gas car.

Sure, and the audi e-tron should be $40K to compete with the same-size audi gas model. And a Model 3 should be priced to compete with a cam/cord. And a Rivian should be $55K.
But that’s not the BE pricing model.

[smk4565]

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Sure, and the audi e-tron should be $40K to compete with the same-size audi gas model. And a Model 3 should be priced to compete with a cam/cord. And a Rivian should be $55K.
But that’s not the BE pricing model.

Right that is why I think 4-cylinder gas cars will be here a good while because you can't get an EV under $35k with current battery prices.  Just like you can't get a V8 powered car for $30k, most V8 powered vehicles are like $50k and up now.  EV's will take over that $50k and up market first.  

[ocnblu]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

So she might be able to get $8k-$9k out of it depending on its condition. Personally, I'd spend the $1500 to get an aftermarket reman battery put in and then call Carvana to come pick it up.  They'll direct deposit the money straight into my checking account.   Put the VIN into Carvana's website and lie about the battery status to get an idea on what they'll pay. 

I won't be able to get that done for ya.  I am not that close to her, I only see her at holidays and that was before the COVID.

[Drew Dowdell]

54 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Sure, and the audi e-tron should be $40K to compete with the same-size audi gas model. And a Model 3 should be priced to compete with a cam/cord. And a Rivian should be $55K.
But that’s not the BE pricing model.

 

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Right that is why I think 4-cylinder gas cars will be here a good while because you can't get an EV under $35k with current battery prices.  Just like you can't get a V8 powered car for $30k, most V8 powered vehicles are like $50k and up now.  EV's will take over that $50k and up market first.  

It will take time, but in a model-generation or two, the costs of building BEVs will come crashing down as @ocnblu's worst fears materialize.  No longer will there be unique powertrain combinations. Every manufacturer will have two electric motors, small and large, and possibly one Large+ for anything from a Vette to a 3500HD. 

And with that, there will no longer be any reason to have a different motor in a Vette compared to a 3500HD.  The personality of the motor can be controlled 100% by programming, but otherwise be physically identical. Want a Corvette race tune in your Yukon Denali? That's just a download at your Local Buick-GMC dealer. 

Power outputs of the motors can be programmatically controlled too. Did you buy a Trax with the base power setup, but 3 years later you got a big raise and want to upgrade it? Put your credit card info into the Chevy MyLink and it will download the unlock key to upgrade your power.

Now here is where it the economies of scale kick in:

GM currently manufactures a 1.0T, 1.2T, 1.3T, 1.4T, 1.5T, 1.6T, 1.8T, 2.0T, 2.5, 2.7T, 3.0T, 3.0 Pushrod, 3.6, 3.6T, 4.0T, 5.3, 6.2, 6.6,..... with multiple variants of those and I'm sure more that I missed.  Even in terms of just gasoline engines, that is absolutely insane that GM does that.

With the "small" electric motor, they could build everything from 2.5 down (in HP) to have a single part number for the powertrain. The 2.0T on up to the 5.3 could have a second part number. The 6.2 and up could have the third part number.  I don't even have time to count up the number of transmissions that go with that list.

So that means a GMC Acadia and Chevy Trax could have the same motor part number, but with changes to the software, have different power outputs. Now, the Acadia has all the same hardware under the hood, no transmission, it becomes significantly more profitable for GM to sell. It's the Encore/Trax scenario on steroids.  The Corvette and Escalade and Sierra 3500 and a Box Truck all share the same motor (paging @smk4565).  Want AWD? Pop another motor on the other axle. 

Once they get to this stage of being able to pump out just 3 powertrains to support their entire lineup worldwide, prices for EVs will come crashing down. 

To infuriate @ocnblueven more, expect companies to start sharing powertrains even more than they do today. I could see Honda and GM in some joint partnership to make motors together such that a CRV and Equinox will have nearly identical parts for motive power. 

@ocnbluis absolutely correct in where this is going, the only part I don't agree with is his view that it won't happen. From a business perspective, the board rooms at Honda, GM, Ford, Mercedes, Volkswagen are all eyeing up this exact scenario and salivating at it.  The only unknown is how long it will take to get there.

[smk4565]

For sure companies will have huge economies of scale by have 2-3 differ sized electric motors and then they can decide how many motors to put on a vehicle.  That part is cheap and will simplify things greatly.

What isn’t cheap is the batteries.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

To infuriate @ocnblueven more, expect companies to start sharing powertrains even more than they do today. I could see Honda and GM in some joint partnership to make motors together such that a CRV and Equinox will have nearly identical parts for motive power. 

Honda has already signed on the dotted line to use GM battery / powertrain to build their EVs. I expect them to start out with what they have and GMs batteries and can easily see this moving to using GM's full family power train.

After all, who would not want a tri-motor 1000HP Honda Pilot!  

General Motors and Honda to Jointly Develop Next-Generation Honda Electric Vehicles Powered by GM’s Ultium Batteries

[Drew Dowdell]

48 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

For sure companies will have huge economies of scale by have 2-3 differ sized electric motors and then they can decide how many motors to put on a vehicle.  That part is cheap and will simplify things greatly.

What isn’t cheap is the batteries.

Batteries are getting cheaper, smaller, and lighter too. 

[balthazar]

Cheaper for whom?

[ocnblu]

9 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

@ocnbluis absolutely correct in where this is going, the only part I don't agree with is his view that it won't happen. From a business perspective, the board rooms at Honda, GM, Ford, Mercedes, Volkswagen are all eyeing up this exact scenario and salivating at it.  The only unknown is how long it will take to get there.

Not saying it WON'T happen, I agree with your whole post.  I will continue to say it is not a GOOD thing.  And I will continue to say it renders brands obsolete.  It certainly weakens the argument that different brands are needed.  This is gm.  This is our life now.  Get used to it.  It is a complete erasure of all that came before, all the blood, sweat and tears, the champions, the icons, the men and women who believed in something.  It's all gone virtual.  Authenticity is a thing of the past.  And with it, loyalty evaporates, because what am I loyal TO, exactly?  If it's all the same, then I have no connection to it, no flag to fly.  There can be no passion in this.  It is completely sterile, it is a severance, a finality, a death, honestly.

Now, before the same crew jumps up and points their fingers, I know this process has been going on for decades, but with the advent of EV it only hastens things.  The 1973 trucks were, I believe, the prototypical experiment in diluting their brands, as Chevy and GMC were nearly identical, down to the engines.  The 1975 H-bodies were an early example, as they all looked identical except for the tiniest of details.  The Chevy engines in Oldsmobiles scandal was another.  The difference is, customers SUED GM over that breach of trust.  It MEANT something to people to save their money and buy an Oldsmobile over a Chevrolet.  After that, GM's  "corporate engine" disclaimer shielded them from people who had reason to be brand loyal.  And with that, GM's market share began to dwindle.  After cultivating it, encouraging it, nurturing it for decades before, General Motors rejected the idea of brand loyalty, and tried to instill corporate loyalty in its place.  People were turned off by it.

I will always remember this:  when I was 14, and out working in the front fields of my grandparents' farm, I had an epiphany... General Motors would one day do away with all of their foundations, all of their building blocks... the brands that made them great.  Everything they sell would be reduced to a simple GM badge.  That vision chilled my teenage car crazy heart.  And now it's really coming to pass.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by ocnblu

[Drew Dowdell]

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

Cheaper for whom?

For everyone.

[ocnblu]

11 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

For everyone.

And in so many ways.

[surreal1272]

17 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

So she might be able to get $8k-$9k out of it depending on its condition. Personally, I'd spend the $1500 to get an aftermarket reman battery put in and then call Carvana to come pick it up.  They'll direct deposit the money straight into my checking account.   Put the VIN into Carvana's website and lie about the battery status to get an idea on what they'll pay. 

What I find funny are the complaints about battery replacement and costs yet more and more ICE cars are using turbos that last about as long as your average battery and can cost thousands to replace. It was the main reason I decided against a used Eco-Boost Flex when I bought the one I have now. Loved the power but dreaded the potential costs of replacing a pair of turbos if they were to go out.

[surreal1272]

6 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Not saying it WON'T happen, I agree with your whole post.  I will continue to say it is not a GOOD thing.  And I will continue to say it renders brands obsolete.  It certainly weakens the argument that different brands are needed.  This is gm.  This is our life now.  Get used to it.  It is a complete erasure of all that came before, all the blood, sweat and tears, the champions, the icons, the men and women who believed in something.  It's all gone virtual.  Authenticity is a thing of the past.  And with it, loyalty evaporates, because what am I loyal TO, exactly?  If it's all the same, then I have no connection to it, no flag to fly.  There can be no passion in this.  It is completely sterile, it is a severance, a finality, a death, honestly.

Now, before the same crew jumps up and points their fingers, I know this process has been going on for decades, but with the advent of EV it only hastens things.  The 1973 trucks were, I believe, the prototypical experiment in diluting their brands, as Chevy and GMC were nearly identical, down to the engines.  The 1975 H-bodies were an early example, as they all looked identical except for the tiniest of details.  The Chevy engines in Oldsmobiles scandal was another.  The difference is, customers SUED GM over that breach of trust.  It MEANT something to people to save their money and buy an Oldsmobile over a Chevrolet.  After that, GM's  "corporate engine" disclaimer shielded them from people who had reason to be brand loyal.  And with that, GM's market share began to dwindle.  After cultivating it, encouraging it, nurturing it for decades before, General Motors rejected the idea of brand loyalty, and tried to instill corporate loyalty in its place.  People were turned off by it.

I will always remember this:  when I was 14, and out working in the front fields of my grandparents' farm, I had an epiphany... General Motors would one day do away with all of their foundations, all of their building blocks... the brands that made them great.  Everything they sell would be reduced to a simple GM badge.  That vision chilled my teenage car crazy heart.  And now it's really coming to pass.

 

Not really (regarding the first paragraph). GM spent decades diluting the brand right up until their bailout and were doing a fine job of it yet again, the last few years with weak turbo offerings and inflated pricing for packages no one wanted to pay for. One failure after another yet you seem to think those were the “glory days”? That is living life with a certain set of blinders on, if you ask me. The “passion” died decades ago (with a few exceptions), long before the current EV plans. Love how you had to get instantly defensive with your “same crew” remark though. Fact is that GM could offer the model/brand variety you supposedly crave and miss and you would still dump on the fact that they are EVs. Honestly, just seems like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

[ocnblu]

31 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

What I find funny are the complaints about battery replacement and costs yet more and more ICE cars are using turbos that last about as long as your average battery and can cost thousands to replace. It was the main reason I decided against a used Eco-Boost Flex when I bought the one I have now. Loved the power but dreaded the potential costs of replacing a pair of turbos if they were to go out

In essence you just capitulated to the fact that batteries go out and are prohibitively costly to replace.  Also it sounds like you'll be holding on to your Flex until they pry your cold, dead hands off the steering wheel.  Finally, some reason from you.  It's almost surreal.

AND... thanks for laughing.  It betrays your inner core temperature.

Edited February 1, 2021 by ocnblu

[surreal1272]

32 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

In essence you just capitulated to the fact that batteries go out and are prohibitively costly to replace.  Also it sounds like you'll be holding on to your Flex until they pry your cold, dead hands off the steering wheel.  Finally, some reason from you.  It's almost surreal.

AND... thanks for laughing.  It betrays your inner core temperature.

And you did a marvelous job of deflecting and missing the point entirely (like the battery reference), at the same time. And, unlike you, I keep my cars for longer than a year or two. This is my third car since 2008 so whatever “argument” you are trying to make, in your attempt to deflect, is just bunk. Pure bunk. 
 

And the laughter exists here because of your rather sad attempt to portray yourself as some kind of victim on this site. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

At least it's the top bunk.

[surreal1272]

19 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's interesting, because when I visit NYC or LA, one of the things I loath most is getting in a beat to crap but still operating Prius V or Escape Hybrid. They take those things right up to their regulated mileage limit and it's not the batteries that kill them. My sister managed to kill her first year Escape Hybrid.... by running it out of oil.

Every car has the potential for drivetrain issues. I'm seeing lately how Hyundai/Kia and FCA are having problems with their 2.4s and having to do engine replacements due to catastrophic oil loss. (Yes I know that particular 2.4 is related between all three companies). 

As for her Pruis, you can get a reconditioned battery for like $900 plus install. If the car doesn't have over 200k miles, it would be worth it to pay for the replacement and then just sell it for a few grand. Even a 175k mile Pruis is worth about $5k and a 100k can fetch $12k - $15k.  So throwing away as much as $15k to save $1,500 doesn't seem to make much financial sense to me. 

And no car company is trying to shed the planned obsolescence. They've gone exactly the opposite direction even on regular ICE cars. Honda and Toyota are just as guilty of it as GM and Ford. Ford, when asked what the upgrade path was for owners with Sync who wanted to go to Sync3, the direct quote from the executive was "Buy a new car...".  But batteries aren't going to be what kills high mileage EVs, just like it isn't what kills high mileage Hybrids. When I needed to repair the cruise control for my CR-V, all I needed was the small plastic disk the cruise linkage would tug on, but the only way to get the replacement part from Honda was buying the entire throttle body for about $800.  I ended up fixing it with a Dremel and some zipties instead. 

Why bother giving rational REAL WORLD examples to someone who just willingly ignores them? Substitute any of those parts for the word “battery”, and it becomes an entirely different argument for him. 

5 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

At least it's the top bunk.

No. Your “arguments” are always bottom bunk, where they belong. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

25 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Why bother giving rational REAL WORLD examples to someone who just willingly ignores them? Substitute any of those parts for the word “battery”, and it becomes an entirely different argument for him. 

You think I made up my brother's mother-in-law's Prius problem?  My world is as real as Moltar's.

[Robert Hall]

42 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Why bother giving rational REAL WORLD examples to someone who just willingly ignores them? Substitute any of those parts for the word “battery”, and it becomes an entirely different argument for him. 

No. Your “arguments” are always bottom bunk, where they belong. 

It's really best to put ocn in your block/ignore list.  He contributes nothing of value to any thread, and is only here to act as a troll.   I have him blocked, but once in a while look at his posts for a laugh. 

[ocnblu]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

look at his posts for a laugh

How very kind of you to say.  Thanks so much!

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

It's really best to put ocn in your block/ignore list.  He contributes nothing of value to any thread, and is only here to act as a troll.   I have him blocked, but once in a while look at his posts for a laugh. 

He is blocked but, like you, I’ll look to see what asinine thing he has said and chime in accordingly. Tired of it being like everyone else is the problem and that we should just ignore him. How about he just act like an actual rational thinking adult? I’m guessing thats just asking too much though lol.

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

You think I made up my brother's mother-in-law's Prius problem?  My world is as real as Moltar's.

Never, not once, said that you made it up. Not once. I was referring to Drew’s example and as such, that did not mean that yours wasn’t. The problem with your example though is that your think it’s indicative of a problem as a whole instead of the singular one off example it is. Learn to discern from the two before assuming intent.

Edited February 1, 2021 by surreal1272

[ocnblu]

15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Never, not once, said that you made it up. Not once. I was referring to Drew’s example and as such, that did not mean that yours wasn’t. The problem with your example though is that your think it’s indicative of a problem as a whole instead of the singular one off example it is. Learn to discern from the two before assuming intent.

Good LORD... OK OK... I also had a guy who came in to my work 3 times with a Prius he absolutely adored, it had 350k miles or thereabouts.  We were able to fix it for him each time, lucky for him they were minor enough damages.  HAPPY NOW?