Recalls a time for Toyota to shine.

[Nodnarb]

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/...0601_836628.htm

Some mighty fine reporting there.

Edited June 6, 2006 by Nodnarb

[aaaantoine]

...So this is what it's looking like to me.

GM: We are recalling 75,000 cars from the late 90s for a faulty windshield wiper.

Media Outlet 1: GM's Crappy Vehicles Spawn Yet Another Recall.

Media Outlet 2: GM's Closing of the Quality Gap Still has a Ways to Go.

Toyota: Begging your pardon, young sirs and madames, but we are needing to recall a million of our cars because the steering could fail and cause the driver to lose control of their vehicle.

aaaantoine: Isn't this reminiscent of what happened to Satty's Solara? (okay, I'm only now saying this, but the thought just dawned on me)

Media: "By proactively recalling nearly 1 million cars worldwide, Toyota can burnish its already excellent reputation for customer service"

aaaantoine: ...

Is everyone else seeing this?

I just want to make sure.

[Snate]

Only with Toyota are recalls considered a good thing.

Jeez...talk about a double standard.

[DetroitNut90]

Interesting. So the next time GM, Ford, or DCX recall so many vehicles for a major defect (a screwed-up steering system that could have the driver losing control of the car is pretty major in my book), can we expect such a nice, friendly "recalls-aren't-so-bad" article?

I doubt it.

[regfootball]

ridiculous.

[regfootball]

wow. read some of the owner comments. they are raggin on the mess that wrote this piece, with the exception of the old dude with the wheelchair who bought his prius to SAVE THE PLANET......

[deftonesfan867]

First the NYTimes article and now this...I really believe the masses are gonna start to wonder wth is going on.

[knightfan26917]

*shakes head*

And people claim there is no bias....

Right.

Cort, "Mr MC" / "Mr Road Trip", 32swm/pig valve/pacemaker

MC:family.IL.guide.future = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/

Models.HO = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort/trainroom.html

"You've made a fool of everyone" ... Jet ... 'Look What You've Done'

[regfootball]

First the NYTimes article and now this...I really believe the masses are gonna start to wonder wth is going on.

dude, you have no idea how many folks have their heads in the sand to anything that required thinking and cars these days......

tonight, my buddy is all gung ho and trading the odyssey to get an SUV because the wife 'wants an SUV and 4wd' so they are all horned on either the Pilot or Ridgeline. i mentioned the upcoming outlook and acadia and enclave and all i got was the whole GM is crap speech. Then i offered up the x5, Volvo XC, the Land Rover, Freestyle, CX-7, Tribeca ( and they used to have two Outbacks!) anything basically besides the Pilot. I know the Pilot is handy and a nice vehicle but when he started saying how 'Honda is selling so many Ridgelines' and i'ts all the vehicle you need' and how he can say with a stright face that the ody held its value so much better than GM......

dude. you paid 33 grand for that ody about 30 months ago and now you will take 18000 in trade. you lost 15 grand in 30 months.

BUT IT HOLDS ITS VALUE SO WELL..........

wtf? in my book that's still losing 6 grand a year on a vehicle. Holy crap, that's robbery. at least pull your head out of the sand and realize your getting bent over. That X5 won't lose 6 grand a year, and nor will the XC Volvo, unlike what you claim.

Admit you're a Honda banger and are sucked into the whole thing! you can say honda always builds a great car but have never heard of the MDX/TL tranny problems!?!?!

and then realize your wife is having a milf identity crisis and is basically tired of the minivan image and wants the SUV to boost her ego and make her feel hip again. She's tired of the mommy wagon stigma. She doesn't want or NEED the 4wd to drive 7 miles to work on backroads. oh, but the Jeep GC is too small! The Commander is too big!

MAN!

meanwhile my other buddy got stuck leasing a Pilot for his wife against his will, he hates the "cheap interior" and the 15 mpg. At least he admits its not all its cracked up to be. He also hates the sub 20 mpg and small cabin and slow acceleration of his FOUR CYLINDER passat.......

Edited June 6, 2006 by regfootball

[the_yellow_dart]

Toyota fan responds at bottom of article:

Nickname: PJTodd

Review: I am a Toyota fan, but this article is a shameless PR piece disguised as reporting. The irony is that Toyota routinely scores poorly in surveys of customer service at the dealership, despite the quality of the vehicles. Forgetting the brands involved in the article, this is just exceptionally poor journalism.

Date reviewed: Jun 5, 2006 4:27 PM

[Dsuupr]

Funny, all this toyota love seems to be creating negative repsonses. Once again, toyota is following in the foot steps of GM 30 years ago.

[balthazar]

{waiting for the import humpers to continue to blindly deny media bias...}

Reg- good post above but what jumped out at me is that you called your buddy's wife a milf. Want to unburden yourself in the Lounge on this issue (don't forget at least one pic!)?

[Sixty8panther]

That's the thing... some people are always saying FoG

exagerates and is drinking GM KoolAid, where's the

fountain of Nippon-Aid that all these journalists are

drinking?

This makes me want to demolition derby a Camry in

this year's Holloween Howler Race.

[FAPTurbo]

Yeah, this is pretty poor journalism. But the comments also show us that no car company is invincible from criticism, even from its own customers.

I wrote Automotive for my univeristy's paper, and generally speaking, they were pretty unbiased (if a bit more domestic leaning articles :AH-HA_wink: ). Hell, some guy on campus walked up to me after he read one of my articles and told me he made up his mind and bought an SRT-4, a nice silver one. (it's a beaut)

However, one week I had two 2500 word essays, so outsourced my article to a buddy. Needless to say, I got plenty of complaints from people in my residence about how I (he) over glorified the Mazda3...

Editorial kinda gave me hell about journalistic integrity and impartiality, even though I didn't write the article and told editorial in advance that I didn't write it.

Chances are Matt Vella will likely get similar treatment or worse after his higher ups read this article and the comments about it.

[CARBIZ]

I just shake my head. Sixtyeight is right: FOG isn't as crazy as people think. The bias is real and we see it every day. Our local rag, the Toronto Star, publishes this kind of crap all the time. Bob Lutz even chewed them out a couple years back about the Grand Prix, which they hated.

Recalls are NOT necessarily a bad thing, to be sure, but to spin this article this way, yet GM got trashed over the tailgate cable problem is outrageous.

[regfootball]

{waiting for the import humpers to continue to blindly deny media bias...}

Reg- good post above but what jumped out at me is that you called your buddy's wife a milf. Want to unburden yourself in the Lounge on this issue (don't forget at least one pic!)?

actually for that post I was using the term milf generically, almost like cultural slang, as a representation of her being the middle aged mommy thing. In truth, this person I have zero sort of admiration for in a physical way. ZERO. Not ugly, or anything, just not at all the sort that does anything for me. To top it off she's my wife's best friend. So really I guess I was using it as a descriptive term for the middle aged self confident mom trying to be hip.

It's probably how we can be such good 'couple friends' there's never any underlying tension or anything like that to disrupt a productive couple friendship.

Usually, if you are a guy and are friends with some other mom you find attractive or there is any sort of tension or flirting, your wife will generally develop animosity towards the other female. Consequently, its darn tough to maintain a couples relationship and your own marraige without problems of some sort.

Funny how the meaning of a term like milf can drift or evolve once it gets used more and more..........

Edited June 6, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Yeah, this is pretty poor journalism. But the comments also show us that no car company is invincible from criticism, even from its own customers.

I wrote Automotive for my univeristy's paper, and generally speaking, they were pretty unbiased (if a bit more domestic leaning articles  :AH-HA_wink: ). Hell, some guy on campus walked up to me after he read one of my articles and told me he made up his mind and bought an SRT-4, a nice silver one. (it's a beaut)

However, one week I had two 2500 word essays, so outsourced my article to a buddy. Needless to say, I got plenty of complaints from people in my residence about how I (he) over glorified the Mazda3...

Editorial kinda gave me hell about journalistic integrity and impartiality, even though I didn't write the article and told editorial in advance that I didn't write it.

Chances are Matt Vella will likely get similar treatment or worse after his higher ups read this article and the comments about it.

that Vella dude should be relegated to mailroom status. One or two more articles like that and he would be fired, if I were the boss. Why his boss/editor allowed that to go live, they ought to be reprimanded as well.

[sciguy_0504]

Poor journalism is an understatement. This is more than rediculous.

BTW, just to get under everyone's skin, one article does not prove the media bias theory.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

I was going to post this to the mentioned website. Think I should?

How much has Toyota paid you to write your piece, Mr. Vella?

Probably just enough to convince yourself to shove your head up your ass and write this senseless drivel. You are a very unprofessional journalist, sir.

The fact is that General Motors and the rest of the guys busting their ass in Detroit make very competitive products that are just as good as anything Toyota can build. However, their work is never good enough for schmucks like you who continue to shove this money-driven crap down the throats of the American people.

People like you make me sick. Most Americans read the local newspaper and watch CNN to read the news. They expect the unbiased opinion from a professional journalist who presents the facts from both sides of the story. You've failed to do this, Mr. Vella. This whole "article" sounds like something Toyota released from the PR department. I mean, just look at the headings. "On the case"? "Ahead of the pack"? I would expect the same thing from a Toyota Camry media packet.

It's true that GM and Detroit weren't the best of the world...about twenty to thirty years ago, but they've seen their faults and are coming back full circle with better products. In reality, Toyota is like Detroit way back when and -- guess what? -- they're going to fall just as hard as Detroit did, if the fall is caused by Detroit's retaliation or the little guy known as Korea.

I pity people like you who always want to be on the winning team, not matter how much the team cheats.

Edited June 6, 2006 by YellowJacket894

[DetroitNut90]

Do it! I was thinking of leaving a comment myself...

[Sixty8panther]

Bob Lutz even chewed them out a couple years back about the Grand Prix, which they hated.

That was funny, I almost forgot about that.

Lutz had balls, I like that!

[regfootball]

Mr. Vella deserves to get demoted to writing articles on 8th grade baseball

[balthazar]

Funny how the meaning of a term like milf can drift or evolve once it gets used more and more..........

OK, I gotcha. I defaulted to the original definition knowing the horndog you seem to be at times. Just looking for a good story.

[siegen]

tonight, my buddy is all gung ho and trading the odyssey to get an SUV because the wife 'wants an SUV and 4wd' so they are all horned on either the Pilot or Ridgeline.  i mentioned the upcoming outlook and acadia and enclave and all i got was the whole GM is crap speech.  Then i offered up the x5, Volvo XC, the Land Rover, Freestyle, CX-7, Tribeca ( and they used to have two Outbacks!) anything basically besides the Pilot.  I know the Pilot is handy and a nice vehicle but when he started saying how 'Honda is selling so many Ridgelines' and i'ts all the vehicle you need'

Let's look at it the other way. If your buddy was all gung-ho about a GM SUV, would you even mention any other vehicles? Let alone a Honda? Probably not.

and how he can say with a stright face that the ody held its value so much better than GM...... dude.  you paid 33 grand for that ody about 30 months ago and now you will take 18000 in trade.  you lost 15 grand in 30 months.

It's not Honda's fault dealers give you jack for trades, or that your buddy might not be a very good negotiator.

[Guest Josh]

Or it doesnt hold its value worth a piece of my dogs $h! in the backyard.

I love how the fan boys try to compensate for their shortcomings on many things.

What I see is this:

Detroit is starting to turn the public perception, so why not put a *piece* like this out there to quickly change the public perception overnight on GM vehicles?

The Asians already know they E85 campaign is working and are trying their best to shelve that.

[Satty]

Funny thing about resale value, my Solara was valued at $10,100 by the insurance company with 110,000 miles, I paid $7900 for the car with 83,000 miles, only reason I owe more than what they gave me (thank god for gap protection) is because the Saturn I traded in on it dropped in value like crazy.

[regfootball]

Funny how the meaning of a term like milf can drift or evolve once it gets used more and more..........

OK, I gotcha. I defaulted to the original definition knowing the horndog you seem to be at times. Just looking for a good story.

the 'horndog' routine is just a comedy schtick. Its a nice way to keep levity going in my everyday world full of boring mundane, happily wed midwestern values.

[regfootball]

Let's look at it the other way. If your buddy was all gung-ho about a GM SUV, would you even mention any other vehicles? Let alone a Honda?    Probably not.

It's not Honda's fault dealers give you jack for trades, or that your buddy might not be a very good negotiator.

it doesn't mattter if he's good or not. the dealers around here dictate what you get because sales are good. take it or leave it. They geenrally go by auction values, which IS a true indicator of real world market conditions. So in this case, if he doesn't take the offer, its not like he'll get a better one elsewhere. Anyone buying it private party goes to Edmunds and sees they can pay 3-4 grand less for it private party and they know if he sells it himself, he is losing 1500 in sales tax credits via trade so they can use that as leverage as well. A dealer can get 22-23 off the lot for it maybe, but PP, you'll be lucky to find a stiff to give him 20 which is still a 13 grand loss plus the 1500 loss in tax credit.

bottom line 30 months, 45% loss in value.

sorry, try again

KTHXBI

[siegen]

it doesn't mattter if he's good or not.  the dealers around here dictate what you get because sales are good.  take it or leave it.  They geenrally go by auction values, which IS a true indicator of real world market conditions.  So in this case, if he doesn't take the offer, its not like he'll get a better one elsewhere.  Anyone buying it private party goes to Edmunds and sees they can pay 3-4 grand less for it private party and they know if he sells it himself, he is losing 1500 in sales tax credits via trade so they can use that as leverage as well.  A dealer can get 22-23 off the lot for it maybe, but PP, you'll be lucky to find a stiff to give him 20 which is still a 13 grand loss plus the 1500 loss in tax credit.

bottom line 30 months, 45% loss in value.

sorry, try again

KTHXBI

What was the MSRP of the trim Ody he bought? $33,000 after tax, license, dealer markup, extra warranty, etc (anything else he might have gotten talked into by the dealer)?

[CARBIZ]

Insurance and bank quotes are valueless. We get that $h! up here all the time

"My banker says my car is worth $10 grand." My broker says my car is worth 5 grand." I just laugh. Are they buying the car?

I had a guy with a '97 Taurs with 260,000 km on it, say it was worth $1,100 because the Ontario government said so. We offerd him $100. Sure, if he wants to safety it, clean it up, etc., maybe MAYBE he will get $1,000 for it PRIVATELY, but then is he actually ahead?

[enzl]

Eh...I'm not so overwhelmed by the article...perhaps I'm an 'import humper', but I don't see the blatant bias..shoddy reporting, yes, but he's just picking a little low-hanging fruit...

Interestingly, Toyota's favorable data is easily exposed as thin, but not actually untrue.

For instance, the 1.5% warranty cost can be explained in a variety of ways...higher retail prices, Toyota's unwillingness to pay for warranty claims the domestics accepted as the price of doing business, lack of indemnification for dealers on the same issues or simply, underreporting.

That being said, perhaps Toyota's masterful use of the media should be emulated by the Big 2.5, rather than criticised....they've clearly been successful in engendering tons of goodwill....I think its goodwill the domestics could use while they turn their ships around....which, they can, inspired by some of us 'import humping' critics, as well as their fans.

[LTB51]

The article isn't that bad. There is some truth to the fact that a recall can be a change for a dealership/company to show how well they will take care of you.

If I had a lot of recalls on a vehicle I would be pissed, but one recall is no worse than (and likely much better than) one unplanned problem.

I had a recall on an Eagle Talon timing belt just shy of when it was required to bre replaced.... greatest dealership experience of my life

If it makes everyone feel better, GM still has the most recalls, so if recalls are good GM is best.

[regfootball]

What was the MSRP of the trim Ody he bought? $33,000 after tax, license, dealer markup, extra warranty, etc (anything else he might have gotten talked into by the dealer)?

loaded ody EX with added sunroof. the sunroof added a thou i think to a 32k full price sticker. MSRP + sunroof. leather, power everything.

kbb private party value

04 odyssey w/ 47k miles

Condition Value

Excellent $22,085

(no one has an excellent condition vehicle, espeically minivans which get beat on)

Good $20,700

(Selected)

I considered it good condition.

Fair $18,835

their 18,500 trade offer was higher than trade value and lower than private party value. it likely was simply an auction value. all the dealers go to the computer and pull up auction value and give you that in case they get stuck unloading the car. You try to debate the trade value and they basically say, see ya and leave you to 'go fk yoself, homie'....In this case they will preserve 6.5% of that for sales tax.....about 1200 (not 15, sorry). so in the end the offer is 19,700 real cash. I'm pretty sure the 32k sticker was paid and then tax on top of that. So let's cancel out the tax and go only on price paid. Let's drop that 18,5 trade number down to 18 because that makes up for the 1000 that was paid extra for the moon roof.

18k/32k = 2.5 years and 56.25% value retained. that's 43.75 / 2.5 = depreciation per year = 17.5 x 3 = 52.5% value lost in 3 years, admittedly slightly higher mileage than normal.

Even if we only go 50% value lost in 3 years, that's still 16 grand out the window. That's not cheap and even the biggest Honda bangers cannot justify saying the car holds its value at that point.

Edited June 8, 2006 by regfootball

[regfootball]

Insurance and bank quotes are valueless.  We get that $h! up here all the time

  "My banker says my car is worth $10 grand."  My broker says my car is worth 5 grand."  I just laugh.  Are they buying the car?

  I had a guy with a '97 Taurs with 260,000 km on it, say it was worth $1,100 because the Ontario government said so.  We offerd him $100.  Sure, if he wants to safety it, clean it up, etc., maybe MAYBE he will get $1,000 for it PRIVATELY, but then is he actually ahead?

i'll give YOU 200 for that car. i need a beater, and i like THE OVAL POD......

[toyoguy]

dude, you have no idea how many folks have their heads in the sand to anything that required thinking and cars these days......

tonight, my buddy is all gung ho and trading the odyssey to get an SUV because the wife 'wants an SUV and 4wd' so they are all horned on either the Pilot or Ridgeline.  i mentioned the upcoming outlook and acadia and enclave and all i got was the whole GM is crap speech.  Then i offered up the x5, Volvo XC, the Land Rover, Freestyle, CX-7, Tribeca ( and they used to have two Outbacks!) anything basically besides the Pilot.  I know the Pilot is handy and a nice vehicle but when he started saying how 'Honda is selling so many Ridgelines' and i'ts all the vehicle you need' and how he can say with a stright face that the ody held its value so much better than GM......

According to ALG Honda's Odyssey holds its value better than any other minivan. http://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx

Yes, Honda has fanatically loyal customers. I have a friend who's owned a previous TL, TL-S (lost two trannies), current TL, and now a Pilot. He purchased all these vehicles new, but only after owning a Grand Am, and Wrangler, which were also purchased new. Believe it or not he has no plans of ever buying an American sedan again.

dude.  you paid 33 grand for that ody about 30 months ago and now you will take 18000 in trade.  you lost 15 grand in 30 months.

BUT IT HOLDS ITS VALUE SO WELL..........

wtf?  in my book that's still losing 6 grand a year on a vehicle.  Holy crap, that's robbery.  at least pull your head out of the sand and realize your getting bent over.  That X5 won't lose 6 grand a year, and nor will the XC Volvo, unlike what you claim.

Yes, cars depreciate quickly, they all do.

meanwhile my other buddy got stuck leasing a Pilot for his wife against his will, he hates the "cheap interior" and the 15 mpg.  At least he admits its not all its cracked up to be.  He also hates the sub 20 mpg and small cabin and slow acceleration of his FOUR CYLINDER passat.......

Yes, SUV's are slow and get poor mileage.

[regfootball]

According to ALG Honda's Odyssey holds its value better than any other minivan.

BFD, it still far too expensive to run and maintain and $$$/yr. basis.

insurance

fuel (does the Honda use premium?)

exhorbitant Honda dealer maintenance costs

MSRP +

never good financing rates

i don't care if their percentage is higher.

Your average Odyssey is about 7-10 grand more across the board than the equal Caravan in real world pricing.

You don't make that up at trade in time.

A very well equipped Grand Caravan SXT that lists for 28 will sell for 21.

If the Caravan holds to even 46% of MSRP after 3 year that = 12880. 21,000-12,880 = 8120.

If the equivalently equipped Odyssey is priced out its at 30,000, and that's what the morons pay for it. To be kind, I will say 29,000. If we say it holds 54% after 3 years (which is being generous) that's 30,000 x .54 = 16,200. 29,000-16,200= 12,800 plus even more on sales taxes, insurance and maintenance.

So even if you think they can justify your yuppie/Honda desire by saying its financially sound to get the Honda, its not. Even in the first years, even facotirng better resale percentages, the Honda still is too much money.

Those parents ought to be ashamed to dump all that extra money on the Honda when it could go into their kids college fund or their own 401k's.....

To top it off, well maintained minivans of any brand will hold their value as well as any other. If you have an excellent mininvan with good miles that not hashed and w/ maintennace records you can unload it in just a couple days and goet near full retail value for it. It that case the Dodge will save you even more money.

No one buys Honda for value. You buy one to stroke your own yuppie stir-fry ego.

Edited June 11, 2006 by regfootball

[siegen]

fuel (does the Honda use premium?)

Regular unleaded for all models. And the Odyssey gets best in class mileage (19/25 for base models, 20/28 for VCM models)

exhorbitant Honda dealer maintenance costs

$30 at jiffy lube once every 3-4 months?

[balthazar]

No one in their right mind who cares about their vehicle -honda owner or otherwise- would risk going to Jiffy Screw.

[regfootball]

No one in their right mind who cares about their vehicle -honda owner or otherwise- would risk going to Jiffy Screw.

most consumer reports bangers and honda bangers prefer to or get pressured into going to the dealer to get their lube jobs done.....as in BEND OVER here's your 50 dollar oil change.

Edited June 12, 2006 by regfootball

[roopull]

I'm wondering if when Toyota becomes the #1 seller if this BS double standard will change... My point is... does GM get negative press because it's the number one seller, or is it for other reasons?

[roopull]

No one buys Honda for value.  You buy one to stroke your own yuppie stir-fry ego.

You sound absolutely silly. Did a Honda beat you up on the playground or something? You sound like you're nursing a wound.

I've owned one Chevy, one Plymouth, a Volvo, a Saturn, a Ford... and six Hondas. I never bought a new one, so I absolutely LOVE the fact that folks will buy a new Honda every couple of years & then sell their used one to me at a bit of a discount. Most were bought with between 40K & 60K miles on the odo.

The only Honda I ever sold with LESS than 200K was a Prelude & I sold it because it had no real backseat & I have more than one friend... Every other one was sold with over 200K & in good running order when I sold it. Other than timing belts & CV joints, only routine maintainance was ever done on any of them... Deal with it... Honda has been building excellent cars right here in America for 20+ years. If GM is just now getting around to making excellent cars, it'll take a while to catch back up in the 'public perception' department.

What can I say? I like to drive my cars, not work on them. Aside from cars I have owned that were 'play thigns' my cars are used to transport me from one place to the other... they're appliances. Reliability is key. My own experience with Hondas tells me they're extremely reliable, Consumer Reports says they're reliable, JD Powers' Vehicle Dependibility Study says they're reliable... There's a reason they have good resale & God knows it isn't styling.

[CARBIZ]

Y'know - I don't know why you guys think the dealers always screw the customers Around here, a lube/oil is $32.95 - $3 more than crappy tire, yet they will upsell you to their "premium" service for $4 more anyway!

Besides, crappy tire, etc. don't have access to GM's service computer so they can address any service bulletins, stc. Make no mistake, when the vehicle is newer, it makes sense to let the dealer look at it. Toyota and Honda have always taken advantage of this because they have programmed their customers to return to the dealer and then the dealer gets the chance to fix all the factory mistakes without the customer knowing.

[siegen]

Toyota and Honda have always taken advantage of this because they have programmed their customers to return to the dealer and then the dealer gets the chance to fix all the factory mistakes without the customer knowing

What's worse is when your GM leaves you stranded half way into the road coming out of a parking lot, and needs to get pushed back out of the way of traffic, and get towed to the dealer. I REALLY wish the dealer would have fixed that problem during a routine oil change (must have been a cheap Chinese fuel pump)...

[CARBIZ]

...or your Odyssey burning to the ground in broad daylight...

...or your new Camry being towed back to the dealer because the automatic just crashed

....or standing on the side of the highway because the computer on your Prius just conked out..

isn't anecdotal stuff fun?

[siegen]

...or your Odyssey burning to the ground in broad daylight...

...or your new Camry being towed back to the dealer because the automatic just crashed

....or standing on the side of the highway because the computer on your Prius just conked out..

  isn't anecdotal stuff fun?

Well I don't know about you, but what I was talking about wasn't an anecdote, it did happen, and in our almost new 2004 GMC Sierra with less than 20,000 miles on the clock (well taken care of, normal oil changes, and driven very nicely, mostly freeway miles). Thankfully it was only half a mile away from my house. The fuel pump was the problem, and had to be replaced. The dealer did do it on warranty and provided a nice little sh*tbox Kia while they were working on it though.

Plus, nobody knew the cause of the Odyssey fire that was posted here a few weeks back. Could have been a poorly installed aftermarket head unit. Could have been a factory screw up.

As far as the Camry and Prius go, well they're Toyota's.

[regfootball]

...or your Odyssey burning to the ground in broad daylight...

...or your new Camry being towed back to the dealer because the automatic just crashed

....or standing on the side of the highway because the computer on your Prius just conked out..

  isn't anecdotal stuff fun?

don't forget the Avalon that lost its steering

[toyoguy]

What's worse is when your GM leaves you stranded half way into the road coming out of a parking lot, and needs to get pushed back out of the way of traffic, and get towed to the dealer. I REALLY wish the dealer would have fixed that problem during a routine oil change (must have been a cheap Chinese fuel pump)...

Here's some more anecdotal stuff, my dad's Oldsmobile stranding him at least twice yearly, w/no working A/C. And my dad's current Camry running flawlessly for the past 12yrs.

My dad's just dying to returning to GM vehicles.

[balthazar]

My dad's mitsu's trans blew up and would've cost more to repair than the car was worth. He junked it at 75K. His subsequent LeSabre ran flawlessly to 135K by the time he upgraded to a newer one.

My dad's just dying to return to japanese vehicles.

We can play this dumb-ass game all month.

Edited June 13, 2006 by balthazar

[grandmarquis]

as lons as we're playing this stupid game... my pos 77 silverado's engine crapped out for no apparent reason just after i sold it. you'd think an engine would last for more than 377k miles.

[enzl]

I'm wondering if when Toyota becomes the #1 seller if this BS double standard will change...  My point is...  does GM get negative press because it's  the number one seller, or is it for other reasons?

They get it because they have a 'tin ear'.

They don't massage the press well, they don't market in the proper channels in the proper way, they have a recent history of rental grade product and, they have managed to lose market share and money by the boatload in the world's biggest car markets' record sales years.....

And that's just a start....