Item: 1964 Pontiac Grand Prix

[balthazar]

Name: 1964 Pontiac Grand Prix
Category: Vehicles
Date Added: 2020-07-17
Submitter: balthazar

 

1964 Pontiac Grand Prix

 

[balthazar]

It's not common for someone mid-aged to still have the first car they ever bought.

I picked up this '64 GP in '86, it was 22 yrs old then. Still got her, 34 years later, and she's now 56 years old. Thankfully, she's basically the same shape as when I got her, as opposed to having degenerated in the time in-between.

Very nicely optioned for '64: heater/defroster, power steering, power brakes, AM-FM, power antenna, power windows, A/C, Electro-Cruise, tilt wheel, Cordova vinyl top, automatic. Standard were the 4bbl 389 V8, dual exhaust, bucket/console, padded dash. Regarding the tilt or the AM-FM, one is a first year option, the other is 2nd year. I think tilt is first year.

When my buddy asked me to borrow $100 to buy it, I said 'let's go check it out'. It was parked with 2 other cars for sale:

1963 Buick LeSabre 2-dr sedan, 150K miles, painted white with a ROLLER. $150
1966 Pontiac Catalina 4-dr sedan, 125K miles, no keys, gold, $125.
and this triple-black Grand Prix Sport coupe was just $100.

Needless to say- I lent him the 100, with the caveat that he give me first dibs when he decided to sell it (inevitable, and on a short time span based on past history).

Now, the car was bought in '86. The inspection sticker in the window was dated from 1971! So it had already sat for 15 years. Owner said he started it regularly, but the alternator always gave him trouble so he parked it. Odometer the day of purchase said 55554.5

My buddy then (we were young squirts) basically only bought cheap old iron to use as daily drivers. Went thru them fast & furious. Even though we rebuild the carb one night at his gas station job, the tank had enough gunk in it that the car continually stalled out while driving. Why he never dropped/cleaned the tank I don't know. I think it was mere months later when he offered it to me for the same $100. I accepted, August 21, 1986.

Edited July 28, 2020 by balthazar

[balthazar]

I parked this car because it had a stuck lifter. Still ran fantastically strong.

So 2 weeks ago, after the urging of 2 friends and my son (who loves this car), I rounded up 4 tires that hold air & swapped them on, rolled the car outside, we washed it and started airing out the interior. I used to have mice running around in my shop, so the windows have been closed all these years. Interior got hella moldy. There were still 2 contained mice nests- one in the back seat and one in a cardboard box in the trunk. Minimal activity either way.

About 90% of the interior has been cleaned now. Going to pulled the buckets and clean the carpet, then button it all back together (I had the rear seat out / just sitting in there).
Hooked a power unit up and tried out a few things- power antenna works, parking lights work, horn works. Didn't try the windows- the power unit isn't the same thing as an actual battery (horn was weak), so didn't want to have them stuck down.

I turned the engine over manually last year, currently have some Marvel Mystery oil in all the cylinders, and going to rotate the engine a couple turns.

Next is rebuilt the carb, clean out the tank (it was coated years back), replace the fuel lines. Check the ignition bits (they only have about 800 miles on them), and probably try to start it.

If it runs, the next hurdle is moving. If it moves, it gets a brand new brake system & tires, and it's time to cruise.

Then there's this to consider :

[A Horse With No Name]

Neat old Pontiac!

 

[Robert Hall]

Sounds like a fun project getting it road worthy again. Does it have much in the way of rust? 

[balthazar]

Both lower front fender drain holes tend to clog & rust out on these- there's a hole on each side there.
Paint on the horizontal surfaces is lightly crispy, but the sides are going to buff out nicely.
Frame, trunk pan, floors and rockers are mint. What's left of the vinyl top shows zero bubbles (at the C-pillar).

It really was only on the road for 7 years.

[A Horse With No Name]

Sounds like a worthwhile project. 

 

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Both lower front fender drain holes tend to clog & rust out on these- there's a hole on each side there.
Paint on the horizontal surfaces is lightly crispy, but the sides are going to buff out nicely.
Frame, trunk pan, floors and rockers are mint. What's left of the vinyl top shows zero bubbles (at the C-pillar).

It really was only on the road for 7 years.

Anything you can do to address or fix the drain hole issue?

[balthazar]

I've never looked specifically at that, but this isn't a car that's going to sit out in the rain, maybe ever again.
I have spare rust-free fenders, but 1. they're a gold color, 2. they have many different bits of trim that would require drilling & filling of holes to take to GP spec, and 3. that's a considerable amount of dis/re-assembly to swap them out. I'd rather live with the contained rot & the original fenders/paint.

I always pictured this car restored to stock. Financially, that doesn't make sense; I can buy one restored for considerable less than it would take to get this to that condition, I think. So I've moved on from that vision to one closer to the Cab-Over; make mechanically sound and drive. The GP is in FAR nicer shape than the COE, one could put it in the 'survivor' class of collectible since it's never been restored / is all original. Interior is really pretty great shape, has the original cardboards/mats in the trunk.

[balthazar]

• Vacuumed/ washed the vinyl trunk mat.
• Starting to amass info to do the carb rebuild.
•Working on getting 4 steelie rims together for tires. Feelin' optimistic there. 2 are done, 3rd is primed & partially painted.
• Following a 3rd lead on a replacement accel linkage piece- the ball stud the carb linkage hooks to snapped off mine.
 

[balthazar]

• Changed the oil/filter.
• Hooked up the un-hooked-up trans cooler lines. I do not recall why they were disconnected to begin with.
• Finished painting rim #3.
• Pulled all plugs, cleaned & gapped. Installed loose, as I want to turn the motor by hand with them out, to lessen the high compression load.
• Lead 3, 4, and 5 for the accel linkage are dead. Still looking.
• Carb rebuild next.

[balthazar]

OK. here's the update since last post.
Cylinders were filled with Marvel Mystery Oil end of August but the motor never responded to turning any further. OK, it may have moved about 1/16th of a revolution. It's stuck. It has to come out.

Using a borescope, most of the cylinders are fine, 2 look less so. Don't have any idea why it won't turn- it's something else.

I decided to have the Tri-P rebuilt and run that, it needs to get done so the motor can use it when being built. 2 months turnaround on the carbs, supposedly 3 months before the engine builder has a slot for my mill. Cam is spec'd, going to do some transmission recon as I may swap it for a THM400 unit.

It's either get this car moving again, or sell it off. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Any idea why it might be seized? Aside from the stuck lifter, it ran when parked right?

[balthazar]

Not legitimate idea, no. Yes- it "ran when parked".
It's not the trans; put it in N and pushed it smoothly both outside & back in garage. Friend says starter, but that's illogical to me. Took all belts off front, water pump turns (someone online suggested that, but there's no mechanical connection between a water pump & the reciprocating assembly). I have wondered about the timing chain, but if debris wedged, it should reverse out. Seems to point to the rings. 

[Drew Dowdell]

7 hours ago, balthazar said:

Not legitimate idea, no. Yes- it "ran when parked".
It's not the trans; put it in N and pushed it smoothly both outside & back in garage. Friend says starter, but that's illogical to me. Took all belts off front, water pump turns (someone online suggested that, but there's no mechanical connection between a water pump & the reciprocating assembly). I have wondered about the timing chain, but if debris wedged, it should reverse out. Seems to point to the rings. 

Did you try and start it at some point?

[balthazar]

Not since I last ran it. Which was not in this century. 

[balthazar]

Carbs are boxed and going to rebuilder tomm. Tri-P manifold has had all threads chased, all edges broken and all casting flash ground smooth. I wish this were aluminum, but only the factory race pieces were (big $$). Cast iron here, weighs 46 lbs.

Edited February 18, 2021 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

Are you doing any significant upgrades?

After you get it running/driving/legal, I'd love to stop by and we take it out for a drive and photo/video shoot.

[balthazar]

Upgrade on the cam is about it. Machining & new pistons will reduce compression (rated at 10.5:1), cam will need to offset that. The trans is still a question- the stock one is of unknown condition, not sure if I will go thru changing over to a TH400. Gearing is fine.
I'm approaching this as a 'survivor' car since it's so original, besides; the Invicta will eat any GP cosmetic money right up. I'm way past the point of no return there, so the only way is 'forward'.

A pic/vid shoot would be awesome. Of course- I will keep the status posted here.

[A Horse With No Name]

On 2/18/2021 at 12:45 PM, balthazar said:

Upgrade on the cam is about it. Machining & new pistons will reduce compression (rated at 10.5:1), cam will need to offset that. The trans is still a question- the stock one is of unknown condition, not sure if I will go thru changing over to a TH400. Gearing is fine.
I'm approaching this as a 'survivor' car since it's so original, besides; the Invicta will eat any GP cosmetic money right up. I'm way past the point of no return there, so the only way is 'forward'.

A pic/vid shoot would be awesome. Of course- I will keep the status posted here.

This thing running might bring me back out to New Jersey. 

[balthazar]

Tri-P intake prepped for paint. 

[balthazar]

Ahhhh! Spring.... and the beautiful sight & smell of Dupli-color Pontiac Blue!   

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Ahhhh! Spring.... and the beautiful sight & smell of Dupli-color Pontiac Blue!   

Awesome job Balthazar!

[Drew Dowdell]

On 3/21/2021 at 3:57 PM, balthazar said:

Ahhhh! Spring.... and the beautiful sight & smell of Dupli-color Pontiac Blue!   

That looks really close to Oldsmobile blue. When did they stop using green on the Buick engines?

[balthazar]

Hmmm... I do not know. 455s were red, I believe the 430s were all red.

[Goes off to look....]

430 ('67-69) was red. Aside from the Aluminum 215 V8, the '63 (only) Riviera & the 300 V8 (ALL silver), it appears Buick green ran thru '66.

Edited April 2, 2021 by balthazar

[G. David Felt]

6 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That looks really close to Oldsmobile blue. When did they stop using green on the Buick engines?

I am interested to see what @balthazar digs up as I found 1967 was the last year of green Buick Motors.

1961-67 Buick Green Engine Paint? - Buick - General - Antique Automobile Club of America - Discussion Forums (aaca.org)

Here is a 55 that is undergoing restoration according to the link above that I posted.

[daves87rs]

Very excited to see it going!

[balthazar]

Yanked the hood and rigged a ‘disassembly light’. Committed now.

[balthazar]

Pulled the fan guard, fan shroud, alternator, PS pump, upper hose, and loosened a bunch of other bolts. Fan was already out. Bolts are coming out very willingly; it WANTS to roll again!

[balthazar]

Radiator pulled, A/C compressor moved off to one side, all intake bolts loosened, some wiring & vacuum lines disconnected/tagged.

[balthazar]

rest of vacuum lines & acceleration linkage disconnected, all intake bolts removed. Took off valve covers to give a bit more room to work at the seam between the intake & the heads, did some prying, no budging yet. Under valve covers showing grayed, mostly-hardened sludge. Makes me feel better about pulling the motor.

[balthazar]

As of this morning: 

[balthazar]

News from the carb rebuilder; dey dun!
 

[balthazar]

Took about 20 mins AFTER everything was disconnected, but got the 4bbl & intake off. 
More visual reaffirmation, in the form of rust, scunge and filth- that a rebuild is in order. 

[balthazar]

I love uncovering tiny signs of Year 1. I know at one time everything was brand new, but sometimes you still forget. 

[balthazar]

• cleaned both valve covers to 90% outside, 100% inside. Need to fire my sandblaster cab back up to take care of the last bit.
• cleaned up 3 intake brackets (2 wire looms, a PCV hose bracket) and shot them with self-etch primer.
• shampooed the carpet- came out really good.
• got hardware for the intake ready for paint (have to keep them in correct order- a few different length bolts). 

[balthazar]

• Prepped the fuel filter bracket for paint
• straightened the valve cover rails
• took off the water pump. Some interesting sub-oceanic formations in there : 

[balthazar]

Pursuing a couple engines rebuilder options. Guy #2 has a year backlog and is priced significantly higher than I hoped to go.
Guy #1 states he should be able to take it in about 4 months. This is the same builder who's working on my brother's 1100 hp Pontiac motor. I'm going to work on other sub-systems in the meantime, while also working on more engine pieces as far as disassembly/cleaning/painting. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Did you ever get it to spin?

[balthazar]

No; there’s no point IMO of continuing to try/ the decision has been made.

[balthazar]

Tri-P loosely assembled to check fitment and that everything looked correct. Nice, don’tcha think? 

[Drew Dowdell]

45 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Tri-P loosely assembled to check fitment and that everything looked correct. Nice, don’tcha think? 

Choke only on the center?  I've never studied how tri-carb setups even work.  I assume that it opens all three at the same time when you step on the pedal... not progressively opening additional carbs as you give it more pedal like a QuadraJet does.

[balthazar]

Yes; it runs off the center 2bbl. End carbs have no idle circuits/choke, only come online at about 75% throttle.
'Progressive' opening via mechanical linkage (was originally vacuum actuated, but no one wants that system now).

A Q-Jet is a 2bbl that adds 2 more bbls. Tri-Power is a 2bbl that adds 4 more bbls. ? 

 

A Q-jet is commonly 750 cfm, Buicks, Cadillacs & a handful of hi-po GMs had 800 cfm.
There was a hyper-uncommon 850 cfm Q-Jet, probably a RA IV or L88 piece.
This tri-Power is 883 cfm.

Edited May 11, 2021 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Yes; it runs off the center 2bbl. End carbs have no idle circuits/choke, only come online at about 75% throttle.
'Progressive' opening via mechanical linkage (was originally vacuum actuated, but no one wants that system now).

A Q-Jet is a 2bbl that adds 2 more bbls. Try-Power is a 2bbl that adds 4 more bbls. ? 

 

A Q-jet is commonly 750 cfm, Buicks, Cadillacs & a handful of hi-po GMs had 800 cfm.
There was a hyper-uncommon 850 cfm Q-Jet, probably a RA IV or L88 piece.
This tri-Power is 883 cfm.

The 800 cfm is all Q-Jets after 1972. But the big difference is that the secondaries are twice the size of the primaries.
 

Not that 800 cfm even matters on my engine with tiny valves and manifold.

Thats interesting that it takes you two additional carbs and four additional barrels to beat an ‘81 e-Qjet in CFM ?

[balthazar]

15 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The 800 cfm is all Q-Jets after 1972.

'75 by my source (and via my experience). Those are commonly termed 'emission Q-Jets' that incorporate a host of features undesirable WRT performance. Those carbs routinely are shunned. The fact that there was a unilateral move to 800 cfm at a point where HP outputs were down by 50% tells you what was going on; airflow to overcome emission 'burdens', not enable greater power.

15 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Thats interesting that it takes you two additional carbs and four additional barrels to beat an ‘81 e-Qjet in CFM

True, but note that was done almost a decade before the 800. CFM is CFM, and that's all that counts. ?

Edited April 29, 2021 by balthazar

[balthazar]

Pentagon UFO report comes out June ‘21... 

[balthazar]

De-rusted/ deburred/ sanded fan, fan shroud, timing cover, valve covers, breather, A/C dryer bracket, fan guard, some other bits.
Fan shroud & breather are painted, rest is ready for prep/ prime/ paint.

Need to get my sand blast cabinet up & running; going to swap the sand out for glass bead I think. Also needs new glass- it's been etched by flying sand nearly to the point of opacity.

[balthazar]

Factory promo model: 

[ykX]

Did you get it?

What scale is it?

[Robert Hall]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

Did you get it?

What scale is it?

That looks like the AMT 1/25th scale promo.  I don't have one, but have a couple of the annual model kits of the '64 (which share the promo tooling but w/ an opening hood and engine, extra parts).   '64 was the first year AMT made a Grand Prix kit or promo, they made them for '64 and '65.  I have resin kits from the Modelhaus for '66 and '67 (ht and conv).  All in 1/25th. 

MPC later made kits and promos in 1/25th of the Grand Prix for '69-72. 

(collecting model kits and promos are one of my hobbies)

Edited May 13, 2021 by Robert Hall