The Cars.com 2020 American-Made Index: Which Cars Are Most American?

[ykX]

I know not everyone agrees with this rating, but nevertheless here it is:

Cars.com

1. Ford Ranger (assembled in Wayne, Mich.) 
2. Jeep Cherokee (Belvidere, Ill.)
3. Tesla Model S (Fremont, Calif.) 
4. Tesla Model 3 (Fremont, Calif.) 
5. Honda Odyssey (Lincoln, Ala.)
6. Honda Ridgeline (Lincoln, Ala.) 
7. Honda Passport (Lincoln, Ala.) 
8. Chevrolet Corvette (Bowling Green, Ky.)
9. Tesla Model X (Fremont, Calif.) 
10. Chevrolet Colorado (Wentzville, Mo.)
11. GMC Canyon (Wentzville, Mo.) 
12. Chevrolet Camaro (Lansing, Mich.) 
13. Honda Pilot (Lincoln, Ala.) 
14. Acura RDX (East Liberty, Ohio)
15. Honda Accord (Marysville, Ohio)
16. Toyota Tundra (San Antonio)
17. Acura MDX (East Liberty, Ohio) 
18. Cadillac CT5 (Lansing, Mich.)
19. Cadillac XT4 (Kansas City, Kan.) 
20. Ford Expedition, Expedition Max (Louisville, Ky.)
21. Cadillac XT6 (Spring Hill, Tenn.) 
22. GMC Acadia (Spring Hill, Tenn.)
23. Cadillac XT5 (Spring Hill, Tenn.) 
24. Lincoln Aviator (Chicago) 
25. Acura TLX (Marysville, Ohio) 
26. Jeep Grand Cherokee (Detroit)
27. Toyota Highlander (Princeton, Ind.) 
28. Lexus ES (Georgetown, Ky.) 
29. Toyota Avalon (Georgetown, Ky.)
30. Chevrolet Suburban (Arlington, Texas) 

[balthazar]

Where’s the ‘macro’ list?

[ykX]

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Where’s the ‘macro’ list?

At the link?

[balthazar]

Nah; the ‘big picture’ list; the one that takes into account the company’s in-country investments etc.

[G. David Felt]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Nah; the ‘big picture’ list; the one that takes into account the company’s in-country investments etc.

Current info is only up to 2017. Report here:https://apps.bea.gov/international/xls/mousa-all-value-added.xls

https://www.bea.gov/international/di1fdiop

[balthazar]

^ What question does that chart answer? None of them (OK; I opened 2) show U.S. numbers.

[oldshurst442]

Why dont we ask the reverse question? (and actually answer the question...)

How much Japanese are these cars?

5. Honda Odyssey (Lincoln, Ala.) |
6. Honda Ridgeline (Lincoln, Ala.) 
7. Honda Passport (Lincoln, Ala.) 
13. Honda Pilot (Lincoln, Ala.) 
14. Acura RDX (East Liberty, Ohio) 
15. Honda Accord (Marysville, Ohio)
16. Toyota Tundra (San Antonio) 
17. Acura MDX (East Liberty, Ohio) 

25. Acura TLX (Marysville, Ohio) 
27. Toyota Highlander (Princeton, Ind.) 
28. Lexus ES (Georgetown, Ky.)
29. Toyota Avalon (Georgetown, Ky.) 

And then we will get a more clear picture of how much American those cars above REALLY are...

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Why dont we ask the reverse question? (and actually answer the question...)

How much Japanese are these cars?

5. Honda Odyssey (Lincoln, Ala.) |
6. Honda Ridgeline (Lincoln, Ala.) 
7. Honda Passport (Lincoln, Ala.) 
13. Honda Pilot (Lincoln, Ala.) 
14. Acura RDX (East Liberty, Ohio) 
15. Honda Accord (Marysville, Ohio)
16. Toyota Tundra (San Antonio) 
17. Acura MDX (East Liberty, Ohio) 

25. Acura TLX (Marysville, Ohio) 
27. Toyota Highlander (Princeton, Ind.) 
28. Lexus ES (Georgetown, Ky.)
29. Toyota Avalon (Georgetown, Ky.) 

And then we will get a more clear picture of how much American those cars above REALLY are...

 

 

Good Question, Suprising to see, Honda has some of the most American Content than many American brand auto's. Honda used to advertise just how American their cars were at one time.

[balthazar]

“Honda has American content...” 
That’s the thorn right there.

[ykX]

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

“Honda has American content...” 
That’s the thorn right there.

Who's fault is it that Honda has substantially more US made parts and designed, builds and assembles most of its US market cars and crossovers here than GM?

People argue that at the end of the day corporation is foreign and profits go abroad.  However, IMO it doesn't matter if the the majority of paying JOBS building that car are here, jobs that provide livelihood to many Americans.  If Honda can do that there is no reason GM or Ford couldn't do that either if they wanted.   However, these corporations (and many more) are controlled by accountants that only care about saving few cents and making more profits for shareholders and the top brass.

I would rather have MDX (that's on the 17s place) than Buick Enclave (51s)

[Robert Hall]

7 hours ago, dfelt said:

Good Question, Suprising to see, Honda has some of the most American Content than many American brand auto's. Honda used to advertise just how American their cars were at one time.

No surprise... Honda has been investing in manufacturing here in Ohio for 30+ years, while GM, Ford, and Chrysler have been closing plants here.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

GM & Ford have been investing in manufacturing in the U.S. for 112 and 117 years.

[Robert Hall]

6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

GM & Ford have been investing in manufacturing in the U.S. for 112 and 117 years.

But they have been divesting for 40+ years, moving a lot of work to Mexico, SK, etc.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

Vast majority of production for the US market are still US plants & support entities.
And the grand total of US investment over time is astronomical.

If we're going to embrace 'globalism' of the industry, then we likewise 'should' trumpet GM running plants in other countries, no? Not me, but maybe you.

Question; are South Carolina mercedes' "American" vehicles?

[riviera74]

Loss of market share is why GM and Ford and FCA have closed plants.  Demand went elsewhere (Honda, Toyota etc.).

What is more "American": a Hyundai/KIA built in Alabama, a BMW built in SC, or a GM built in Spring Hill TN?

[ykX]

17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Vast majority of production for the US market are still US plants & support entities.

Chevy Silverado US content is 46%

Out of the top 20 cars/ trucks the split is :

GM - 4 vehicles

Ford - 2

Honda - 7

Toyota - 3

So please tell me which company supports US manufacturing more?

[balthazar]

GM and Ford.
And Chrysler is a wholly-owned foreign subsidiary.

[ykX]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

GM and Ford.
And Chrysler is a wholly-owned foreign subsidiary.

Unfortunately the numbers tell a different story.

[ccap41]

20 hours ago, ykX said:

24. Lincoln Aviator (Chicago)

Why any company would use IL as a manufacturing state blows my mind. I have to believe they're getting bent over on taxes and other crap compared to...most other states. 

They also fckd this launch up with all sorts of vehicle issues... 

[oldshurst442]

45 minutes ago, ykX said:

So please tell me which company supports US manufacturing more?

when American society in general STOPS treating the American worker as the enemy, then maybe manufacturing will return to the US...

Its all about dollars and cents.  And when the American worker...ALL WORKERS are looked at being as monetary liabilities and are exposed to be the MAIN go-to cost cutting measures to beef up the bottom line, then what do you expect American manufacturing to do?   They just follow what the rest of the country does.  They shyte on the American worker and dont give him any jobs...

That is NOT just a Ford, GM, Chrysler thing.     

There is a war with minimum wage workers in the US...  American people dont want minimum wage workers to make a decent living.  American people want minimum wage workers to just go away. They are a nuisance to them.   They are poor, uneducated and dont serve them properly.  American people want their minimum wage workers to get an education and to quit their minimum wage job if they arent happy with the conditions of them serving the rest of us...

On the other hand, the UAW has one over the corporations and these guys make money hand over fist, and yet, American people HATE the UAW for that...

But...American people have NO PROBLEMS with CEOs making tons of money, phoquing us all up the butt, because they made us believe they deserve the salary they do because they are soooooo much better and smarter than the rest of us. They cheat on their taxes, they find loopholes in the tax system, they inside trade and make all their brotherhoods even richer...  They convinced us that the average worker in the US should be limited in pay, they convinced us that EVEN CHEAPER labour SHOULD be attained in other lands so we could CONTINUE to buy the useless shyte they peddle...and all that useless shyte they peddle, SHOULD NOT be built in the US. Why?

1. too expensive to be built in the US

2. American build quality is shyte compared to the Germans and the Japanese.

3.  Chinese made American products, its OK for THAT tombe built like shyte because we could just throw THAT out to buy new new new shytlly made Chinese produced American product...

 

Its all phoquing surreal....

Here we are, and for the last 30-40 years, we continue to have this stupid discussion of what is more American. A Toyota or a Chevrolet.    

For the same criteria, we dont even QUESTION  if a Mercedes and BMW SUV built in the US IS American...we simply say its German...   (doesnt fit the German engineering is better than American cars motif the German companies brainwashed us with as opposed to what the Japanese are brainwashing us with...)

We wage war on the American worker on a daily basis, yet we fakely defend American manufacturing...

45 minutes ago, ykX said:

Chevy Silverado US content is 46%

Out of the top 20 cars/ trucks the split is :

GM - 4 vehicles

Ford - 2

Honda - 7

Toyota - 3

So please tell me which company supports US manufacturing more?

So...@ykX   

Do you believe the shyte rag of a mag that is consumer's report that American cars are subpar to cars like a Toyota?

And...why do you believe that?

Is it because American workers are pathetic?

Well, the Camry is built in America...

Is it because you think the Japanese have tighter tolerances and impose that on their American factories and the American car makers dont?   I know for a fact that Toyota had a really bad stretch for reliability...but yet, that shyte narrative is still parrotted.

What about the Germans?  Their cars always seem to be handicapped by reliability issues... Cars built in Germany versus cars built in the US, maybe?     So it MUST BE that American workers are shyte...

So...why are you KNOW defending American manufacturing?  

Which is it?  You cant have it both ways...

And to which is why THIS discussion is such a shyte discussion.  Its all over the place. Its MOSTLY corporate bullshyte that has brainwashed the American people for FAR to long...

GM and Ford is both a victim and a culprit for this.  But its mostly the American people's fault for allowing corporations and politicians to dictate to them how they should feel and act and  that have ALLOWED this mess to happen in the first place...

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

47 minutes ago, ykX said:

Unfortunately the numbers tell a different story.

Who’s numbers.

[ykX]

@balthazar

Numbers in that index rating and other surveys.    If you have different numbers, please share.

@oldshurst442

What the hell are you talking about?

First of all this is not from Consumer Reports, this is Cars.com index.

Secondary no one said anything about quality or reliability.  This is just index of US made content of different models. 

Speaking of quality, if Honda can build pretty much all of their US market vehicles here with a majority of parts manufactured here as well and have good, actually very good quality, so should "phocking" Ford!  

Instead they save pennies by outsourcing manufacturing and build sh@t.

I am all for building stuff in US and I think GM and Ford should do it more here.

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by ykX

[ccap41]

It is a shame to see the best selling vehicles in the US(F150, Silverado, RAM 1500) not being on this list. 

3 hours ago, ykX said:

Who's fault is it that Honda has substantially more US made parts and designed, builds and assembles most of its US market cars and crossovers here than GM?

People argue that at the end of the day corporation is foreign and profits go abroad.  However, IMO it doesn't matter if the the majority of paying JOBS building that car are here, jobs that provide livelihood to many Americans.  If Honda can do that there is no reason GM or Ford couldn't do that either if they wanted.   However, these corporations (and many more) are controlled by accountants that only care about saving few cents and making more profits for shareholders and the top brass.

I would rather have MDX (that's on the 17s place) than Buick Enclave (51s)

GM and Ford are strangleholded(is that a word..?) by their got damn unions. They need to get rid of them.  

Edited June 24, 2020 by ccap41

[oldshurst442]

29 minutes ago, ykX said:

@balthazar

Numbers in that index rating and other surveys.    If you have different numbers, please share.

@oldshurst442

What the hell are you talking about?

First of all this is not from Consumer Reports, this is Cras.com index.

Secondary no one said anything about quality or reliability.  This is just index of US made content of different models. 

Speaking of quality, if Honda can build pretty much all of their US market vehicles here with a majority of parts manufactured here as well and have good, actually very good quality, so should "phocking" Ford!  

Instead they save pennies by outsourcing manufacturing and build sh@t.

I am all for building stuff in US and I think GM and Ford should do it more here.

 

You know what Im talking about...

Dont act coy...

Secondly...one MAIN reason of why we are having a Honda/Toyota discussion of why it may be "American" is the market share they both have gained in your (and my) country at the expense of Ford, GM, Chrysler and  its BECAUSE of build quality arguments..   And...Consumer Reports  is one of these shyte rag mags that has influenced you with this BS. 

29 minutes ago, ykX said:

Speaking of quality, if Honda can build pretty much all of their US market vehicles here with a majority of parts manufactured here as well and have good, actually very good quality, so should "phocking" Ford!  

You see...  you fell for that hook, line a sinker...    Does Consumer Reports shyte on Honda with their transmission problems the way they have sh@t on GM, Ford or Chrysler?    

And here we are, with Honda's transmission problems that stem from the 1980s all the way to 2010...and YOU dont even bat an eyelash for...but you shyte on Ford...      

29 minutes ago, ykX said:

Instead they save pennies by outsourcing manufacturing and build sh@t

So...why do you think the US is in the place that it is in concerning ALL manufacturing...not just automotive...but we will stick to the automotive narrative. 

Is it because American car workers are pathetic?

Well, the Camry and Corolla is built in America...  and we all know that the Camry and Corolla are the best damned cars in the world...

Is it because you think the Japanese have tighter tolerances and impose that on their American factories and the American car makers dont?   I know for a fact that Toyota had a really bad stretch for reliability...including said Camrys and Corollas, but yet, that shyte narrative is still parrotted.

What about the Germans?  Their cars always seem to be handicapped by reliability issues... Cars built in Germany versus cars built in the US, maybe?     So it MUST BE that American workers are shyte...  

Or is it because Ford, GM and Chrysler cant make cars worth a damn?   (Dont forget, Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi...ALL have had reliability problems over the years...)

In case you missed what Im saying is:

German vehicles built in the US are German, because THAT is the popular narrative that the the German companies want Americans to believe in.

Japanese vehicles built in the US are somewhat American BECAUSE of "American content" BECAUSE THAT is the narrative the Japanese companies want Americans to believe in.

And POLITICIANS that play BOTH side of the fence want to shyte on American car companies for building cars in the US AND for them building cars OUTSIDE the US...well...for POLITICAL purposes and THAT is what these guys want Americans to be divided on... 

Question is

What the phoque are YOU going to do to get jobs and manufacturing BACK to the United States of America?    (general question not necessarily direct ONLY towards @ykX, but to ALL Americans)

 

Are you gonna start DEFENDING US car makers and the American car worker and American workers in general?

Or are you gonna continue to shyte on the American worker?  

Which ALSO means that you have to put pressure on American corporations to ACTUALLY PAY the worker what he is worth and to PRODUCE product IN THE US but THAT also means that YOU...THE AMERICAN CONSUMER...MUST START THINKING ABOUT PAYING FOR AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS A LITTLE BIT MORE BECAUSE THAT PRODUCT IS MADE IN AMERICA...

NO MORE  MADE IN CHINA...

BUT IT STARTS WITH YOU...THE AMERICAN CONSUMER...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

Chevy Silverado US content is 46%

Out of the top 20 cars/ trucks the split is :

GM - 4 vehicles

Ford - 2

Honda - 7

Toyota - 3

So please tell me which company supports US manufacturing more?

Lincoln Aviator..? 

[ykX]

9 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Lincoln Aviator..? 

Yea missed that one, sorry

So it makes Ford even with Toyota.  Kind of sad if you ask me.

[ccap41]

Just now, ykX said:

Yea missed that one, sorry

So it makes Ford even with Toyota.  Kind of sad if you ask me.

Oh I agree. The F150 and Silverado should be on that list. 

[ykX]

@oldshurst442

You keep blaming CR and other magazines unfairly treating US manufacturer and fabricating stories about bad quality but I see around me from my family vehicles and my coworkers and friends that the issues with quality are there.  I am not saying Honda and Toyota are perfect, far from it.  But I definitely see same pattern, I can give you numerous examples but it doesn't matter.

All I am saying if Honda can build majority of its vehicles here and have superior quality than Ford than something is wrong.  If that's UAW fault, than some drastic measures need to be taken.

The pandemic showed how much in trouble we are when it was discovered that crucial medical equipment and medications are all manufactured in China and India.  When sh@t hit the fan these countries will take care of themselves first of all.  Politicians and accountants in charge of US companies need to wake the phak up.

[balthazar]

49 minutes ago, ykX said:

@balthazar

Numbers in that index rating and other surveys.    If you have different numbers, please share.

I don't.  To my knowledge; what I'm talking about has never been tabulated. Big picture stuff, not a micro-view.

[ykX]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I don't.  To my knowledge; what I'm talking about has never been tabulated. Big picture stuff, not a micro-view.

Well, the way I see it, buying Honda Pilot provides almost double American jobs than buying Chevrolet Traverse.  That's my micro-view.

And being in manufacturing myself that matters to me.

[oldshurst442]

28 minutes ago, ykX said:

You keep blaming CR and other magazines unfairly treating US manufacturer and fabricating stories about bad quality

Not fabricating...those issues were real.    BUT over-inflating them and putting a lot of time and effort pinpointing them out.

And about the Japanese and German reliability issues were not as merely as talked about and advertised...

28 minutes ago, ykX said:

but I see around me from my family vehicles and my coworkers and friends that the issues with quality are there. 

Sure...

Coincidentally, Ive seen plenty of my friends and family that owned American cars, and they have CRUCIFIED the American cars for the very real issues they had and when they switched over to German and Japanese cars, the reliability issues they had with those were...calmly brushed off...  

The hypocrisy of both my friends and family and Consumer Reports is both comical and phoquing frustrating at the same time...

28 minutes ago, ykX said:

All I am saying if Honda can build majority of its vehicles here and have superior quality than Ford than something is wrong.

And THAT is false.  That is just false...

Ive had many friends of mine with shytty Ford Escorts from the 1980s and 1990s and Ford Escapes with well over 300 000 kilometers with no issues on the odometer while Ive had many friends with Accords of all decades and Odysses  with all kinds of transmission and engine failures...   Yes...ENGINE failures.  Hondas...WITH ENGINE failures...   All kinds of suspension and steering problems.     But we dont EVER hear of those...    

28 minutes ago, ykX said:

If that's UAW fault, than some drastic measures need to be taken.

UAW is just a scapegoat that fits nicely into our current narrative.

UAW workers are lazy. They make too much for the little they do...blah blah blah...

Truth is, the political and corporate winds have been at war with ANY union since the 1980s...  The very reason why manufacturing has left the US and gone on to China.     CHEAP LABOUR and American labour is supposedly too expensive.  Meaning, Americans are NOT WORTHY to make money producing stuff... 

Goes back to what I said...  Americans workers should NOT get paid.  American workers are a monetary liability and the first line to be targeted by cost cutting measures to beef up the bottom line IS the American worker... 

Listen...I did say that GM and Ford are both the victim and culprit.   Cheapening of parts to beef up the bottom line is an issue.

But the UAW is NOT the problem.   GREEDY CEOs to appease greedy, clueless shareholders  is THAT problem... 

 

28 minutes ago, ykX said:

The pandemic showed how much in trouble we are when it was discovered that crucial medical equipment and medications are all manufactured in China and India.  When sh@t hit the fan these countries will take care of themselves first of all.  Politicians and accountants in charge of US companies need to wake the phak up.

I agree with this 100% though!!!

Edited June 24, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

13 minutes ago, ykX said:

Well, the way I see it...

Yeah- I got that. Different folk will look at the same issue in different ways.

[Robert Hall]

Reality is complex.  There are many things.

[ykX]

Latest JD Powers Initial Quality Study

Contrary to a popular believe when manufacturer deserves recognition it gets it.  GM is above average and much higher than Toyota and Honda.  Koreans are killing and Tesla needs to get their sh@t together.

[balthazar]

One that scale, and by what we've heard, I would've thought Tesla would be down around 450.

[riviera74]

6 hours ago, ykX said:

@oldshurst442

You keep blaming CR and other magazines unfairly treating US manufacturer and fabricating stories about bad quality but I see around me from my family vehicles and my coworkers and friends that the issues with quality are there.  I am not saying Honda and Toyota are perfect, far from it.  But I definitely see same pattern, I can give you numerous examples but it doesn't matter.

All I am saying if Honda can build majority of its vehicles here and have superior quality than Ford than something is wrong.  If that's UAW fault, than some drastic measures need to be taken.

The pandemic showed how much in trouble we are when it was discovered that crucial medical equipment and medications are all manufactured in China and India.  When sh@t hit the fan these countries will take care of themselves first of all.  Politicians and accountants in charge of US companies need to wake the phak up.

Build quality is NOT a labor issue (union or nonunion).  It is a management issue.  Management makes those decisions period.  GM/Ford/FCA for a long time had quality control issues of various sorts going back to at least the mid-1970s.  The Japanese (Nissan aside) largely decided that quality does matter and actually execute on that.  (Yes Toyota is coasting now, but I digress.)  The Germans: do not even start with their supremely expensive repair bills after 5 years or so.  Anyone remember when Hyundai and KIA were awful in the quality department?  What did they do?  The 10 year warranty.  Since 2001, that warranty put the onus on them (not the customer) to dramatically improve vehicle quality.  If you think the UAW is militant, drop by South Korea and deal with their unions.

The real issue is simple: the Detroit three decided that cheapening product fed their bottom line and basically told their customers that they did not matter.  In 1968, the D3 could get away with that.  By 1988, that was no longer the case.  I think that it matters MORE that the car in question is of high quality and can last a long time (with routine maintenance).  Where it is assembled and where the OEM parts come from do NOT matter to most customers.  You build quality; you get repeat and new customers.  You build junk; your market share completely disappears eventually.  Americans have no loyalty to Detroit because a lot of them have been burned in the past and carry that baggage to their next car purchase.  Address that and the rest will follow.

[balthazar]

I see it as a 3-legged stool; labor, management & engineering. Sometimes it's actual assembly, but sometimes... a lot of times, it's the way the vehicle was engineered. A headlight cracks & rattles in it's fender because engineering spec'd a plastic tab too thin/small to hold up- that's not management or labor.

[ykX]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

I see it as a 3-legged stool; labor, management & engineering. Sometimes it's actual assembly, but sometimes... a lot of times, it's the way the vehicle was engineered. A headlight cracks & rattles in it's fender because engineering spec'd a plastic tab too thin/small to hold up- that's not management or labor.

From my experience as an engineer, in most cases (not always) bad engineering like you describe is a result of a bad management and unreasonable constrains management and accounting put on engineer.  Most engineers I know rather to overengineer thing than underengineer.

[balthazar]

Yeah, I would agree that would be the likely reasoning, but engineering/design is still involved obviously.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, ykX said:

From my experience as an engineer, in most cases (not always) bad engineering like you describe is a result of a bad management and unreasonable constrains management and accounting put on engineer.  Most engineers I know rather to overengineer thing than under engineer.

I totally agree and one reason my own computers at home last so long. I buy enterprise type hardware rather than retail based products. Yes more expensive, but built to last much longer than retail. 

Sadly this is very common in all aspects of business. Many companies have engineers that build long life superior products and then Management and the bean counters keep asking how can we get extra money out of the product. Can we use cheaper hardware in various places which leads to dissatisfied customers. 

Detroit 3 has hurt themselves due to the bean counter affect of cheapening to fatten Executives wallets at the cost of customer loyalty.

I am seeing more coworkers that have been burned in the last decade by Toyota which has done some of the same cheapness that cost GM the worlds biggest company. Lately unlike GM, Toyota is changing things to rebuild their image of quality long life. This is an area where Ford and GM especially need to change attitude on.

[riviera74]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

I see it as a 3-legged stool; labor, management & engineering. Sometimes it's actual assembly, but sometimes... a lot of times, it's the way the vehicle was engineered. A headlight cracks & rattles in it's fender because engineering spec'd a plastic tab too thin/small to hold up- that's not management or labor.

Remember when GM had head gasket problems in the Northstar engines some years back?  Management.  I remember having the transmission on my (former) 1999 Park Avenue Ultra rebuilt after 75000 miles.  My current Lucerne never needed a rebuilt transmission.  Engineering may have played a role, but GM Bean counters and Management are the real source of cheap poor quality.

Management's answer to everything: make it cheaper and make it common.  That is the biggest reason for the fall of GM especially.  These days are a lot better than it was pre-BK.

[balthazar]

That, to me, reads like ‘every widespread problem with a vehicle is the fault of bean counters, and there is nothing that shows up over time / assembly workers are perfect’.

I think it was a lot different when every component was designed & built in-house.... and I’m not sure just how far back you’d have to go to get that. Pre-war definitely. But then at least there’s almost no excuse [except of course; nothing is perfect and todays vehicles are more complex than ever.]
It still seems ‘unnatural’ that today whole subassemblies like dashes/clusters are built by vendors.

[ykX]

Or transmissions ...

[G. David Felt]

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

That, to me, reads like ‘every widespread problem with a vehicle is the fault of bean counters, and there is nothing that shows up over time / assembly workers are perfect’.

I think it was a lot different when every component was designed & built in-house.... and I’m not sure just how far back you’d have to go to get that. Pre-war definitely. But then at least there’s almost no excuse [except of course; nothing is perfect and todays vehicles are more complex than ever.]
It still seems ‘unnatural’ that today whole subassemblies like dashes/clusters are built by vendors.

I agree with you that this is NOT a management only problem. I remember my families Olds Station wagon and it had a clunk noise in the drivers side door. Dad took it in many times and they could never fix it, they were not willing to replace the door as it did not affect the function of the door or window or locks. As such my Dad after the 3rd attempt tore the door open to inspect himself and could not find anything. Came back to the open door after doing some other stuff and decided to compare it to the passenger front door. Discovered there was a section that has a plate welded over what was an open area on the passenger door. My dad cut it open and inside found a wrench with a note that said "I bet this was a bitch to find" The auto was built during one of the stikes and things like this were common on the assembly line. Humans can and will do things that reduce the quality even on assembly. So this is truly not only a Management / Bean counters issue, but it does point to the fact that Many cheap corner cuts are done by the management for the sake of executive pay / bonus packages.

[balthazar]

That would require CEOs/ executives to come to the plants and instruct plant managers to specifically do these things.... yet how would the so-called 'saved' monies directly get back to the CEOs? Are you suggesting kickbacks somehow? I don't see it.

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

That would require CEOs/ executives to come to the plants and instruct plant managers to specifically do these things.... yet how would the so-called 'saved' monies directly get back to the CEOs? Are you suggesting kickbacks somehow? I don't see it.

Executive compensation plans always have places for increased profits, lower costs, etc. I know in some gone companies I had worked at in the early 90's it was common to hear upper management ask lower management, how can we make it cheaper and yet sell it at the same price for bigger profits?

Yes, I think many Executive compensation plans focus on the 1% getting richer at the expense of everyone else. I honestly think the human self interest at the expense of others happens many times in those extreme Alpha's. Digital Computer corporation would still be here if not for the last CEO Palmer who got a contract focused on profits to himself and the board as well as big bonuses if he could sell the company. Many Alpha type leaders look to themselves first. This would be no different in an auto company that ends up killing quality products.

[riviera74]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

That would require CEOs/ executives to come to the plants and instruct plant managers to specifically do these things.... yet how would the so-called 'saved' monies directly get back to the CEOs? Are you suggesting kickbacks somehow? I don't see it.

It's all about CEO compensation.  Ever since the early 80s, CEO compensation has been tied to stock prices.  Basically, the CEO tells everyone to cut costs at all costs.  Hence: make it cheaper, make it common.

Do SNAFUs exist in design and engineering? Yes, see head gasket issues in the Northstar.  Can there be assembly line issues? Yes.  But the majority (I would say vast majority) of problems point to poor management and short-term thinking.

[riviera74]

On 6/24/2020 at 3:06 PM, ykX said:

Latest JD Powers Initial Quality Study

Contrary to a popular believe when manufacturer deserves recognition it gets it.  GM is above average and much higher than Toyota and Honda.  Koreans are killing and Tesla needs to get their sh@t together.

Am I the only one wondering if this set of ratings will be the same three years from now?  Especially when today's vehicles are subject to the dependability ratings for 2023?

[G. David Felt]

19 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Am I the only one wondering if this set of ratings will be the same three years from now?  Especially when today's vehicles are subject to the dependability ratings for 2023?

I also wonder how a change to EVs will change this as less moving parts, less maintenance should drive higher quality. Also those new Auto companies that are starting out as Pure EV companies like Rivian. Will be interesting to see where it ends up on this chart.

Tesla, has lived way too long on the BS of Musk and some bizarre fascination with the company while quality has still not improved and sucks when Tesla sell's returned leased auto's to 3rd party sellars who sell it based on how it was sold to them only to have Tesla turn off feature functions. Totally a scam company. I am as you and everyone knows will be buying full size truck/SUV EVs once there is stuff out that I and more importantly the Wife likes.

Yet, based on what I am seeing out of GM, I do wonder if it will be a GM EV, Could be a Ford or Rivian once I can sit in one and check it out.

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

I also wonder how a change to EVs will change this as less moving parts, less maintenance should drive higher quality. Also those new Auto companies that are starting out as Pure EV companies like Rivian. Will be interesting to see where it ends up on this chart.

Well, we've obviously seen where the Pure EV company Tesla ended up / their product quality.