Genesis News: 2021 Genesis G80 Packs New Styling, Two Turbo Engines

[Robert Hall]

Tesla seems to be THE status symbol car brand of recent years.  (not necessarily reflected in sales numbers, though). 

[G. David Felt]

8 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Tesla seems to be THE status symbol car brand of recent years.  (not necessarily reflected in sales numbers, though). 

Thought this was an outstanding write up on the tear down and how mostly Asian auto companies are buying the reports to compete.

https://electrek.co/2020/05/08/teardown-guru-sandy-munro-sells-tesla-reports-to-mostly-asian-automakers/

https://sandymunro.net/

Munro YouTube channel on Tear downs.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj--iMtToRO_cGG_fpmP5XQ

Crazy all his connections and links for info on his Tear Down and input about Tesla.

PATREON GROUP: https://www.patreon.com/MunroLive

MUNRO MERCH: https://teespring.com/stores/munro-live-store

SUPPORT MUNRO: https://munrolive.com/access-%2F-shop...

MUNRO LIVE VIDEO CONTENT: https://munrolive.com/

MUNRO MAIN WEBSITE: https://leandesign.com/

 

[surreal1272]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes built the first super car in the 1954 300SL, the best car in the world in the 1960s with the 600.  And Benz invented the car and Dialmer/Benz were around over 50 years before ever coming to the US.  

 

Genesis doesn’t have 50 years as Asia’s premier car brand that is just coming to the US for the first time.  These guys are starting from scratch like Lexus or Acura did.  Out of the gate Lexus had more success than Genesis had.  Lexus made an image, Genesis hasn’t, they don’t know what they want to be.

Again, you do nothing to help your argument whatsoever. Let me state it for you one more time. Despite Benz being in the market for fifty year prior to selling in the US, it took them almost another fifty years to be where they are today. Does it add up yet or do you want to sidestep the obvious again with some BS about their first super car (it wasn’t) and the supposed best car in the world, the 600 (also wasn’t)? The funny thing is that you somehow think that changes what actually happened with Benz from the 1950s to now.

Edited May 13, 2020 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

Where Genesis is in 50 years doesn’t pay the bills today.  The G80 is in a shrinking segment with no performance model and no hybrid and just 2 engine choices.  It looks like a nice car but this brand changes styling dramatically every 5 years, G80 will probably look dated shortly after being on market and sales will slump after the first year.

GV80 looks like it could be strong because that is a growing segment, Infiniti is dead in the water, the MDX is old, the XT6 is a weak entrant, Lexus GX is ancient.  If they steal 500 sales a month from each of those and get 1,000 Hyundai/Kia trade up buyers,  now they start getting 3,000 sales a month and have something going there.
 

[riviera74]

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Where Genesis is in 50 years doesn’t pay the bills today.  The G80 is in a shrinking segment with no performance model and no hybrid and just 2 engine choices.  It looks like a nice car but this brand changes styling dramatically every 5 years, G80 will probably look dated shortly after being on market and sales will slump after the first year.

GV80 looks like it could be strong because that is a growing segment, Infiniti is dead in the water, the MDX is old, the XT6 is a weak entrant, Lexus GX is ancient.  If they steal 500 sales a month from each of those and get 1,000 Hyundai/Kia trade up buyers,  now they start getting 3,000 sales a month and have something going there.
 

Perhaps, but Genesis needs a GV70 to compete in the compact luxury CUV market, where the Lexus RX reigns supreme (for now). 

I am fairly sure that the MDX will get a necessary upgrade soon. The Lexus GX has a Land Cruiser problem (both have been around for a decade with few updates).  The XT6 just came out a year ago.  The Infiniti QX80 has a Pathfinder problem in that nobody is buying either of them.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Where Genesis is in 50 years doesn’t pay the bills today.  The G80 is in a shrinking segment with no performance model and no hybrid and just 2 engine choices.  It looks like a nice car but this brand changes styling dramatically every 5 years, G80 will probably look dated shortly after being on market and sales will slump after the first year.

GV80 looks like it could be strong because that is a growing segment, Infiniti is dead in the water, the MDX is old, the XT6 is a weak entrant, Lexus GX is ancient.  If they steal 500 sales a month from each of those and get 1,000 Hyundai/Kia trade up buyers,  now they start getting 3,000 sales a month and have something going there.
 

Again, sidestepping the point here. Pretty sure your first sentence could be applied to 1950’s Mercedes in the U.S. See the problem yet?

[G. David Felt]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Where Genesis is in 50 years doesn’t pay the bills today.  The G80 is in a shrinking segment with no performance model and no hybrid and just 2 engine choices.  It looks like a nice car but this brand changes styling dramatically every 5 years, G80 will probably look dated shortly after being on market and sales will slump after the first year.

GV80 looks like it could be strong because that is a growing segment, Infiniti is dead in the water, the MDX is old, the XT6 is a weak entrant, Lexus GX is ancient.  If they steal 500 sales a month from each of those and get 1,000 Hyundai/Kia trade up buyers,  now they start getting 3,000 sales a month and have something going there.
 

So then you admit that 50 years ago, what Mercedes built did not pay the bills and only cost them money! Got it! 

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Perhaps, but Genesis needs a GV70 to compete in the compact luxury CUV market, where the Lexus RX reigns supreme (for now). 

I am fairly sure that the MDX will get a necessary upgrade soon. The Lexus GX has a Land Cruiser problem (both have been around for a decade with few updates).  The XT6 just came out a year ago.  The Infiniti QX80 has a Pathfinder problem in that nobody is buying either of them.

GV70 is coming soon, the prototype is in testing now, but it is a small, rear drive SUV like a BMW X3.  It isn't as big as an RX350, nor is it front drive, which I think is for the better.

[smk4565]

Just announced:  Acura RLX is dead after 2020 model year.

The so called "more reliable than a German car" Japanese brands have now totally left the mid luxury sedan market, Cadillac left the segment, and Lincoln will soon when the Continental dies.  

[balthazar]

Sedans are going to die off at a frightening rate in 2020-21.

Edited May 15, 2020 by balthazar

[riviera74]

36 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Just announced:  Acura RLX is dead after 2020 model year.

The so called "more reliable than a German car" Japanese brands have now totally left the mid luxury sedan market, Cadillac left the segment, and Lincoln will soon when the Continental dies.  

Yes, common and luxury cars are dying off because it seems almost everyone wants a CUV/SUV. 

As for the Acura RLX, why would anyone buy an somewhat upgraded Accord for $15K extra?  At least Acura is wise to focus on the RDX and MDX.  Although to be honest the MDX could use a serious upgrade since it dates from 2014.

[surreal1272]

17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Just announced:  Acura RLX is dead after 2020 model year.

The so called "more reliable than a German car" Japanese brands have now totally left the mid luxury sedan market, Cadillac left the segment, and Lincoln will soon when the Continental dies.  

This isn’t “so called”. They are more reliable (on average) but the Kool Aid is strong with the German lovers. Case and point, your posts. And Cadillac has not left the segment. Not sure what you are smoking but I’d ask for a refund on it.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

This isn’t “so called”. They are more reliable (on average) but the Kool Aid is strong with the German lovers. Case and point, your posts. And Cadillac has not left the segment. Not sure what you are smoking but I’d ask for a refund on it.

CT5 is a C-class competitor, the CT5 actually costs less than a C-class.  CT6 is out of production.

Genesis plans to go into the luxury sedan segment with reliability and low maintenance cost as their sales pitch, but Lexus and Acura tried that and failed.  And Genesis has a less than 5 year track record so we don’t really know if their long term reliability is good.

[balthazar]

11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

the CT5 actually costs less than a C-class.

Here we go again with that same broken, invalid comparison of base MSRPs.

[smk4565]

58 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Here we go again with that same broken, invalid comparison of base MSRPs.

How would you like to compare CT5?  Or what does it compare to?

Cadillac CT5 is 194 inches long, $36,895.

Toyota Avalon is 196 inches long $35,875.  

Is that the competition at this point?  We have Acura TLX at 191 inches long and $33,000.  Or 184 inch Mercedes CLA at $36,650?

Edited May 16, 2020 by smk4565

[balthazar]

Answer this question; how many luxury vehicles are sold with zero options?
If your answer is (rightfully) 'none', then how is base MSRP a factor in any way if that number is never paid?
- - - - -
merceds is likely too small/ cramped/ underpowered/ old to be cross-shopped. It was refreshed for '20 but I doubt consumers do anything but assume it's the same since 2013.
toyoter people shun luxury vehicles.
According to your narrative, the TLX doesn't compete because it's FWD (same with the CLA).

[oldshurst442]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

CT5 is a C-class competitor

wrong

 

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Lexus and Acura tried that and failed

wrong

On 5/14/2020 at 9:31 PM, smk4565 said:

Cadillac left the segment

wrong

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

The so called "more reliable than a German car" Japanese brands

bolded part is...

wrong

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

How would you like to compare CT5?  Or what does it compare to?

A Mercedes E Class...   But not really. A CT5 is truly a luxury vehicle. Unlike the E Class...

The thing is...the CT5 is NOT a mundane, mass produced, plebeian, every day Average Joe, utilitarian taxi cab sedan in its home country like the E Class is in its home country...

So...what do we compare the E Class to?    A Dodge Charger?  Yeah...Im comfy with that comparison!

You know...the Charger reaches high dollar price tags...JUST like the E Class.

You know...the Charger is also a mundane, mass produced, plebeian, every day Average Joe, utilitarian taxi cab/police car sedan in its home country...  JUST like the E Class in Germany...

Both are RWD.  AWD.  Both have adequate horsepower V6s. Both have  high powered V8s.  

Yeah....an E Class is a Charger competitor.  Awesome!

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

36 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

wrong

 

wrong

wrong

bolded part is...

wrong

What does CT5 compete with?  What is the target market?

 

Acura RL, RLX, Lexus GS, Infiniti Q70 are dead.  E-class, A6 and 5-series are still going strong.  Germans won that round.

[oldshurst442]

Just now, smk4565 said:

 Germans won that round.

wrong

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

What does CT5 compete with?

A Mercedes E Class...   But not really. A CT5 is truly a luxury vehicle. Unlike the E Class...

The thing is...the CT5 is NOT a mundane, mass produced, plebeian, every day Average Joe, utilitarian taxi cab sedan in its home country like the E Class is in its home country...

So...what do we compare the E Class to?    A Dodge Charger?  Yeah...Im comfy with that comparison!

You know...the Charger reaches high dollar price tags...JUST like the E Class.

You know...the Charger is also a mundane, mass produced, plebeian, every day Average Joe, utilitarian taxi cab/police car sedan in its home country...  JUST like the E Class in Germany...

Both are RWD.  AWD.  Both have adequate horsepower V6s. Both have  high powered V8s.  

Yeah....an E Class is a Charger competitor.  Awesome!

 

 

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

Answer this question; how many luxury vehicles are sold with zero options?
If your answer is (rightfully) 'none', then how is base MSRP a factor in any way if that number is never paid?
- - - - -
merceds is likely too small/ cramped/ underpowered/ old to be cross-shopped. It was refreshed for '20 but I doubt consumers do anything but assume it's the same since 2013.
toyoter people shun luxury vehicles.
According to your narrative, the TLX doesn't compete because it's FWD (same with the CLA).

Every car has options, the CLA goes over $60k with all options.  CT5’s will obviously transact around $45-50k.  But options or no options, it is still an entry lux competitor, it isn’t in mid-luxury.

[oldshurst442]

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 What is the target market?

The CT5 target market is non-taxi, non-police force agencies. Unlike the E Class...

I guess the target market would be folk that could afford its luxury price tag on a car that is JUST luxury.

The E Class is sold in its home market to police forces and taxi cab companies....much like the Dodge Charger is here in North America. And the E Class, much like the Dodge Charger, has got expensive versions to sell to those that want a little bit more speed and style than the taxi cab and police car versions...

Also...the E Class has plebeian models too, that sell to Average Joes in the mainstream market. Much like the Charger...

The CT5, does NOT have mainstream versions. Like at all...  So there is that...

Edited May 16, 2020 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Every car has options, the CLA goes over $60k with all options.

wrong.  

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 CT5’s will obviously transact around $45-50k.  But options or no options

wrong

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

it is still an entry lux competitor, it isn’t in mid-luxury.

wrong

[smk4565]

40 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

A Mercedes E Class...   But not really. A CT5 is truly a luxury vehicle. Unlike the E Class...

The thing is...the CT5 is NOT a mundane, mass produced, plebeian, every day Average Joe, utilitarian taxi cab sedan in its home country like the E Class is in its home country...

So...what do we compare the E Class to?    A Dodge Charger?  Yeah...Im comfy with that comparison!

You know...the Charger reaches high dollar price tags...JUST like the E Class.

You know...the Charger is also a mundane, mass produced, plebeian, every day Average Joe, utilitarian taxi cab/police car sedan in its home country...  JUST like the E Class in Germany...

Both are RWD.  AWD.  Both have adequate horsepower V6s. Both have  high powered V8s.  

Yeah....an E Class is a Charger competitor.  Awesome!

 

 

The E-class starts $18k more than a CT5, and a CT5-V maxes around $65k, the E63 goes over $142,000 with all options and even I think the ala carte options list on a Mercedes is nuts, more of that needs packaged or worked in.  And sure there will be a CT5 Blackwing, maybe that is $90k, but that is a far cry from $142k.

And the G80 is a nice effort but no match for the E-class or 5-series. 

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

The E-class starts $18k more than a CT5,

wrong

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

the E63 goes over $142,000

wrong

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

And the G80 is a nice effort but no match for the E-class or 5-series.

wrong

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

and a CT5-V maxes around $65k,

wrong

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And sure there will be a CT5 Blackwing, maybe that is $90k,

and...

wrong

[balthazar]

CT5 Sport starts at $43K. It's not going to sell that low.
CT5-V starts at $49K. It's not going to sell that low.
CT5-V AWD starts at $51K. It's not going to sell that low.

My local dealer has 15 listed on their website. 13 are over $50K, so there goes your 'commonly $45K, $46K, $47K, $48K, $49K' out the window. The bulk are $52-54K. The top 2 are stickered at $64K and $66K. Blackwing not released yet.

[smk4565]

19 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

The CT5 target market is non-taxi, non-police force agencies. Unlike the E Class...

I guess the target market would be folk that could afford its luxury price tag on a car that is JUST luxury.

The E Class is sold in its home market to police forces and taxi cab companies....much like the Dodge Charger is here in North America. And the E Class, much like the Dodge Charger, has got expensive versions to sell to those that want a little bit more speed and style than the taxi cab and police car versions...

Also...the E Class has plebeian models too, that sell to Average Joes in the mainstream market. Much like the Charger...

The CT5, does NOT have mainstream versions. Like at all...  So there is that...

It is sold as a taxi because it is probably the longest lasting sedan there is.  It also doesn’t change the price.  We in the USA choose not to pay $60k for a taxi or police car.  
 

Volume is also a good thing, it means you survive.  Unlike GS, Q70, RLX, CT6, MKX, Continental soon, etc.  No volume, no longer here.  

[oldshurst442]

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

t is sold as a taxi because it is probably the longest lasting sedan there is.

wrong

 

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 It also doesn’t change the price

wrong

 

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

We in the USA choose not to pay $60k for a taxi or police car.  

wrong.  In Germany either.  The E Class is sold at Charger prices in Germany...

 

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Volume is also a good thing, it means you survive

I guess when it comes to your arguments...you like to play both sides of the fence.

But you know...  a very IMPORTANT CRITERIA of LUXURY is the contrary of what you say...  VOLUME is the very OPPOSITE of luxury.  

So in THAT context, because THAT is what YOU are discussing...LUXURY...that statement above is...

WRONG!!!

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Unlike GS, Q70, RLX, CT6, MKX, Continental soon, etc.  No volume, no longer here.  

WRONG...

Theis COVID thing will put a damper in E Class sales in the US...

Dont be surprised that the E Class might be canceled in the US in a year...

1. its a sedan in a SUV world

2. new vehicle sales will be down drastically

3. Mercedes has to pay its huuuuge diesel scandal fines in Germany in the following months...  Cost cutting was well on its way before the Covid thing, and now in the very near future, like in the next couple of months,  it will be a very painful reality for Mercedes...

4. Mercedes before the Covid thing was cash strapped...Im afraid to ask what is happening now...

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

CT5 Sport starts at $43K. It's not going to sell that low.
CT5-V starts at $49K. It's not going to sell that low.
CT5-V AWD starts at $51K. It's not going to sell that low.

My local dealer has 15 listed on their website. 13 are over $50K, so there goes your 'commonly $45K, $46K, $47K, $48K, $49K' out the window. The bulk are $52-54K. The top 2 are stickered at $64K and $66K. Blackwing not released yet.

But the car starts at $36,895, so many will sell at $45-50k and the V’s will mostly sell upper $50’s.  New cars often ship first with higher trims before they put lower trims out.

But a loaded CLA250 is $53k, $65k for a loaded AMG CLA35.  Most CLA250 will sell in the mid 40’s, most CLA35 will sell around $55k.  Not far off from CT5 and that is a budget Benz.  

[balthazar]

Just now, smk4565 said:

But the car starts at $36,895, so many will sell at $45-50k and the V’s will mostly sell upper $50’s.

I JUST illustrated how those numbers are incorrect.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

that is a budget Benz.  

Wrong

From where I stand and Ive seen...

ALL Mercedes vehicles below the MODERN S Class are...budget.    The G Wagen especially...its a military vehicle. Military vehicles are as budget as budget gets...

[smk4565]

19 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

wrong

 

wrong

 

wrong.  In Germany either.  The E Class is sold at Charger prices in Germany...

 

I guess when it comes to your arguments...you like to play both sides of the fence.

But you know...  a very IMPORTANT CRITERIA of LUXURY is the contrary of what you say...  VOLUME is the very OPPOSITE of luxury.  

So in THAT context, because THAT is what YOU are discussing...LUXURY...that statement above is...

WRONG!!!

WRONG...

Theis COVID thing will put a damper in E Class sales in the US...

Dont be surprised that the E Class might be canceled in the US in a year...

1. its a sedan in a SUV world

2. new vehicle sales will be down drastically

3. Mercedes has to pay its huuuuge diesel scandal fines in Germany in the following months...  Cost cutting was well on its way before the Covid thing, and now in the very near future, like in the next couple of months,  it will be a very painful reality for Mercedes...

4. Mercedes before the Covid thing was cash strapped...Im afraid to ask what is happening now...

 

The cheapest E-class in Germany 3 years ago was $53k, and that is for an E250 that we don’t even get here. 
 

E-class isn’t going anywhere, they sold 351,000 of them last year.

Mercedes already paid the fine last year.  And all automakers will be hurt by Covid-19.

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The cheapest E-class in Germany 3 years ago was $53k

wrong

 

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

E-class isn’t going anywhere, they sold 351,000 of them last year.

wrong.

Not in the US...  

That number is worldwide...and thanx in part to taxi and police car liveries...

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes already paid the fine last year

wrong

Edited May 16, 2020 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I JUST illustrated how those numbers are incorrect.

So an E, 5, or A6 start at $54k with zero options, which we know doesn’t exist and every is extra in a German car.  Mercedes charges $200 for wireless phone charging which is ridiculous, for $54k that should be included.   So what are those 3 transacting at?  You get to $70k real quick while still with a 4-cylinder engine on those cars and 4-cylinder sucks for a luxury car so you need the 6, now it is $80k.

[smk4565]

6 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

wrong

 

wrong.

Not in the US...  

That number is worldwide...and thanx in part to taxi and police car liveries...

wrong

So what is the cheapest E-class in Germany?  I saw 49,000 Euro.

Worldwide number is what matters, that is how Mercedes gets their money for product development.   They don’t build a US only E-class paid for only with US sales revenue.

Also how VW makes crazy money.  Most don’t know the VW Tiguan and Golf both outsold the Chevy Silverado last year on a global number.  They sell over 800,000 Golfs per year.  

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It is sold as a taxi because it is probably the longest lasting sedan there is.  It also doesn’t change the price.  We in the USA choose not to pay $60k for a taxi or police car.  
 

Volume is also a good thing, it means you survive.  Unlike GS, Q70, RLX, CT6, MKX, Continental soon, etc.  No volume, no longer here.  

To your first sentence, LMAO! The reason why they are chosen is because Mercedes aggressively whores them out, same as Ford did here back in the day with the Crown Vic. It’s a great indicator that they can’t move enough through the consumer market so they resort to aggressively marketing towards fleet sales. “Longest lasting”? Not even close. 
 

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The cheapest E-class in Germany 3 years ago was $53k, and that is for an E250 that we don’t even get here. 
 

E-class isn’t going anywhere, they sold 351,000 of them last year.

Mercedes already paid the fine last year.  And all automakers will be hurt by Covid-19.

The cheapest E Class in Germany right now starts at $49K. When you factor in their fleet practice, then they are being sold for even cheaper than that. Keep trying to sugarcoat it but the E Class and C Class would not survive without those fleet sales and that is a simple statement of fact. 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The E-class starts $18k more than a CT5, and a CT5-V maxes around $65k, the E63 goes over $142,000 with all options and even I think the ala carte options list on a Mercedes is nuts, more of that needs packaged or worked in.  And sure there will be a CT5 Blackwing, maybe that is $90k, but that is a far cry from $142k.

And the G80 is a nice effort but no match for the E-class or 5-series. 

Again, you show your bias with your last sentence. The car isn’t even out yet, you haven’t even sat in one as a result much less driven it. And you wonder why you catch the hell you do?

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by surreal1272

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

The cheapest E Class in Germany right now starts at $49K. When you factor in their fleet practice, then they are being sold for even cheaper than that. Keep trying to sugarcoat it but the E Class and C Class would not survive without those fleet sales and that is a simple statement of fact. 

 

An E200 bare bones E-class no options starts at 47,000 Euro or $50,800.   That is still higher than a Cadillac XTS that had a high fleet %.   Every company needs fleet sales to survive too.  

[smk4565]

Bringing it back to the G80, a good comparison would be to the Cadillac CT5.  They are both the same size roughly.

A CT5-V starts at $49k, Genesis has said the G80 will start just under $50k, so I'll assume that means $49k.   So we have similar size and price with the Cadillac you get a turbo V6 for the price of the turbo 4 in the Genesis.  CT5 tops out around $65k, G80 is supposed to go to $70k, so pretty close.  

So which car is better, CT5 or G80?

Which car will sell better?

[surreal1272]

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

An E200 bare bones E-class no options starts at 47,000 Euro or $50,800.   That is still higher than a Cadillac XTS that had a high fleet %.   Every company needs fleet sales to survive too.  

No every company does not need fleet to survive. And even at that price, it is lower than what you claimed earlier and again, that is not a fleet price. Fleet prices are cheaper for obvious reasons, a fact you chose to overlook. 

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Bringing it back to the G80, a good comparison would be to the Cadillac CT5.  They are both the same size roughly.

A CT5-V starts at $49k, Genesis has said the G80 will start just under $50k, so I'll assume that means $49k.   So we have similar size and price with the Cadillac you get a turbo V6 for the price of the turbo 4 in the Genesis.  CT5 tops out around $65k, G80 is supposed to go to $70k, so pretty close.  

So which car is better, CT5 or G80?

Which car will sell better?

So the G80, which has already been stated to be an E Class competitor is also a CT5 competitor but the CT5 is not an E Class competitor? Again, this is why I take your statements seriously. The constant bar moving and revolving contradictions kill any agreement you are trying to make here. 

[smk4565]

28 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

No every company does not need fleet to survive. And even at that price, it is lower than what you claimed earlier and again, that is not a fleet price. Fleet prices are cheaper for obvious reasons, a fact you chose to overlook. 

So the G80, which has already been stated to be an E Class competitor is also a CT5 competitor but the CT5 is not an E Class competitor? Again, this is why I take your statements seriously. The constant bar moving and revolving contradictions kill any agreement you are trying to make here. 

Cadillac states the CT5 is a C-class, A4, 3-series, G70 competitor.  

On price the CT5 and G70 match up very closely, but the CT5 is the size of a G80.   I think the G80 is nicer than a CT5, CT5 and G70 are about equal I think, depends on  how big a car you want.  I think the Cadillac will sell better as it is 1 car covering 2 segments basically and has more recognizable brand name and dealer network.

On a side note a BMW M340i has a 3.8 second 0-60 time, that's not only a full second faster than a CT5-V, it is faster than a Camaro SS or Mustang GT.  This is the big separator with the Germans and these other guys, the performance isn't there.  Genesis isn't going to make a sedan that fast, let alone an M3 competitor.  Cadillac at least has tried with the V-series to make some fast cars, but they could still do more, like V-series SUVs, etc.

[Robert Hall]

33 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cadillac states the CT5 is a C-class, A4, 3-series, G70 competitor.  

 

Which is more where the CT4 is size wise...

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Which is more where the CT4 is size wise...

Right but CT4 is a 1-series, A-class, A3 competitor.  As Johan previously stated while there, Cadillac was going to go to that segment with rear drive when everyone else did front drive.   And you can throw the Acura TLX in there, which is bigger than a CT4, but same price point.

Edited May 16, 2020 by smk4565

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

On a side note a BMW M340i has a 3.8 second 0-60 time, that's not only a full second faster than a CT5-V, it is faster than a Camaro SS or Mustang GT.

M340injected is the top trim/performance model in the 3-series. But NONe of the 3 American models you compared it to are the top performance models. That’s the problem.

[oldshurst442]

29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Right but CT4 is a 1-series, A-class, A3 competitor.

*SIGH*

WRONG

32 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

As Johan previously stated while there, Cadillac was going to go to that segment with rear drive when everyone else did front drive

Oi Vey

WRONG AGAIN

[ocnblu]

*sigh*  slow news day

[oldshurst442]

This thread has been hijacked anyway talking about Mercedes more than Genesis...on TWO occasions. 

49 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

*sigh*  slow news day

So to derail it further and perhaps in a more interesting topic... 

Not really a slow news day. 

Delta airlines is retiring all of its Boeing 777s.  That is a big blow to Boeing as Delta is also going to replace their fleet of 777s with  relying on their Airbus A350-900s with their longer routes and for their smaller routes with the Airbus  A330.  Delta says that both Airbuses are more fuel efficient and cost effective than the 777. 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by oldshurst442

[OCN2]

On 5/9/2020 at 6:44 PM, smk4565 said:

I don’t think an extra year of warranty is going to sway any buyers on a luxury car.

But maybe the new (butter-)face of the F/L E Class will...

 

On 5/10/2020 at 9:20 PM, smk4565 said:

My comparison with Telluride is only that the Telluride has a nice interior, the Stinger doesn't and they come from the same company.  Telluride is best in class interior, the Stinger is probably the worst interior you can get for a car of that price point.

The materials for the interior in the Stinger is better than in the Telluride.

Also, unlike what Kia NA had expected, it's the higher-priced 3.3TT V6 Stinger that sells.

 

On 5/10/2020 at 7:39 PM, smk4565 said:

Now if they are back to 318 dealerships, that is about what Lexus has, BMW and Mercedes have about 350-360.  So Genesis isn't that out numbered and yet their sales volume is very low.  Mostly that low volume is no crossovers, but crossovers have been on the rise for 10 years.  Why on earth did they launch a brand with 3 sedans first, before making a crossover? That is totally incompetent management.

The Genesis brand was only founded 4 years ago.

3.5 years is a pretty turn around to develop a new model - the GV80, esp. one w/ an all-new platform, new engines, rash of new tech, etc.

Speaking of platforms, the reason why didn't develop a CUV earlier is b/c they needed to develop a lighter-weight platform first to compensate for the increased weight of a CUV; the outgoing Genesis G80 was already on the heavy side as is, so basing the GV80 on the old platform would have made for a heavy, fuel-thirsty CUV.

Also, the new lighter-weight platform was developed so that it can also incorporate a BEV powertrain (which is on top of having additional EVs on a dedicated BEV platform).

The eG80 is already undergoing testing and Genesis has filed for trademarks for an eGV80, etc., so Genesis will have a full lineup of electrics before any of the Japanese lux makes.

That doesn't seem like incompetency to me (not that there hasn't been missteps at Genesis USA w/ regard to the retail network, which is why management has changed).

As for starting w/ 3 sedans (putting aside the platform weight thing), that's what the domestic market dictates.

SKorea is one of the largest and most profitable markets for MB and BMW when it comes to selling the E/S Class and 5/7 Series.

MB sold 10k E Class in SK in a 3 year period.

 

On 5/12/2020 at 6:57 PM, smk4565 said:

All of them entered the mid-price luxury segment and all of them are gone.  What makes the G80 any different from them?

Strong domestic market sales (which correlates w/ Genesis continuing to invest and upgrade; something that the Japanese and American makes did not do).

 

On 5/12/2020 at 10:11 PM, smk4565 said:

The G80 is a nice car, I think it is their nicest vehicle inside and out,  but it is going to be a sales struggle because 20 cars came before them and failed, and Genesis isn't doing anything those guys didn't already do.

For most of its run, the Genesis/G80 has placed 3rd in its segment, ahead of the A6, and should do so again w/ the new model.

And w/ all the non-European competition gone or half-way out the door, the buyers in this segment who want something other than a Euro will only have one choice.

 

On 5/11/2020 at 6:48 PM, smk4565 said:

Maybe Genesis will add more models and grow, but in a declining auto market I don't see who they are stealing gobs of market share off of.

Genesis has around 10k pre-orders for the GV80 and that's before any real national advertising campaign/commercials.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by OCN2

[riviera74]

Welcome OCN2.

Also, the GV80 I hope will be the first Genesis CUV since they need more than just ONE CUV these days.